Concurrent Manga and Target Audiences - Older Fans left out?

[JulieYBM]

(Thats why wokeism is bad.)

Wokeism is bad because they no longer include sex jokes or attempt to avoid being offensive towards women in their comics aimed at children? I don't understand what you mean. I was just reading world-famous children's comic Boku no Hero Academia the other week and one of the female child protagonists was featured topless on the cover page of a chapter. That doesn't sound particularly 'woke' to me, albeit that is only one example.

Wokeism is bad in general because artists can't be themselves, hell, no one can be themselves publicly.. this is one form of a control where in the not so distant future humour will completely die out, art will become totally boring because in time always new and new sensitiveness will come up (its never enough!), everyone must be "perfect" or could end up cancelled everywhere in life for the smallest possible of "bad" behaviour.

Criticizing art that is poorly made makes art better and including uncriticized body-shaming and uncriticized misogyny in your art makes that art bad.

Woke people aren't out to do anything but stop the spread of harmful ideas and educate people on how they harm marginalized people.

Why is it brave to include offensive jokes that shame a woman's body or treat her as if she has no agency in the objectification of her body outside of an erotic context, especially in comics and cartoons created at and marketed towards children?

Why should a creator's intent to aim offensive depictions of women at children be left uncritcized?

People will vote with their wallets. If a creator does things that offends people whatever that is then people will no longer consume that product. It's that simple, let everyone do art as he/she wants as insulting as it is, no one have any say how an artist SHOULD create their work.. it's the "climate" that the (western) mainstream media and social media creates, that is what should stop and everyone will be happy. If something offends me then I simply don't look at that product anymore and don't care about it. I let other people enjoy that to their fullest, not want them to change their views to accommodate my feelings.

I don't know why it is you think women and minorities in Japan aren't tired of this bullshit, too, but they are.

[coola]

To be fair, Tokyo Mew Mew New aired last season, it was more accurate adaptation, and Kish is still same creep towards Ichigo, and yesterday 1st episode of Urusei Yatsura remake aired, and Ataru is still same womanizer, so if Toei wanted to put dirty jokes back in, but it was more of original Dragon Ball thing, and since no one cares about that series...

[JulieYBM]

I'm leaving you all to the discussion about dirty jokes in a kids show, because what I'm really interested in is the notion of the show still being aimed at children instead of growing up with the fans. A while back I had a discussion with a fellow member about this and they hated the idea that the shows they watched as a kid didn't age with them. Hate is perhaps too strong a word. Resent is probably better. Regardless, it's something that always stuck with me.

I just don't get that mentality. It's okay for you (the royal you obviously) to have grown too old for a thing you used to like and moving on. It's okay to still enjoy a thing you liked as a kid even if it's no longer for you.

Thing you enjoyed at age 8 shouldn't have to adjust its sensibilities to appeal to you at age 35 because you refuse to watch other things.

I agree with your point but I also think that there should be room for anyone to make a more 'grown up' (or rather, 'different') version of one's chuldhood art. I think there's plenty of space to make great art in that respect as has been seen with works like Festival of Champions or other fan fic and fan comic writers. I do not believe that were should rely on capitalists and IP holders for that sprt of thing, however.

[peterx]

Criticizing art that is poorly made makes art better and including uncriticized body-shaming and uncriticized misogyny in your art makes that art bad.

Woke people aren't out to do anything but stop the spread of harmful ideas and educate people on how they harm marginalized people.

Criticizing ok, cancelling not ok.

Why do woke people feel the need (and have the courage) to shame/cancel anyone who does not fit in their worldview with his/her product? I think ordinary people are mature enough to decide what is good or bad for them. We don't need uninvited nannies in our life, our parents far enough for that role. Don't "educate" but lead by example, then people will follow your way OR not, they will decide for themselves. It's that simple, no need to shame anyone or woke people will become the very thing they want to avoid at all cost.

I don't know why it is you think women and minorities in Japan aren't tired of this bullshit, too, but they are.

If they tired of anything they should simply not looking at that particular product. It's not the creators job (and no one's) to make their product enjoyable by everyone on Earth. Yes this sounds cruel but a world with zero creativity (because this is where wokeism will ultimately lead, if not stopped at one point), is the worst thing possible for humanity. There are 8 billion people on this planet now, it's impossible the create something that will be enjoyed by everyone. Every product will trample on someone's sensitivity. Woke people's dream of a "perfect world" is an impossible goal unless you dont create anything (and destory every old thing that don't fit your worldview, like the Nazis did with books or Wokes did with statues recently, for example). (and as I said there will always be new sensitivities it's endless)

[JulieYBM]

Criticizing ok, cancelling not ok.

We should absolutely stop aiming misogynistic, racist, queerphobic and ablist work towards children. In fact, we should also stop aiming those works at mainstream audiences in general.

Why do woke people feel the need (and have the courage) to shame/cancel anyone who does not fit in their worldview with his/her product? I think ordinary people are mature enough to decide what is good or bad for them. We don't need uninvited nannies in our life, our parents far enough for that role. Don't "educate" but lead by example, then people will follow your way OR not, they will decide for themselves. It's that simple, no need to shame anyone or woke people will become the very thing they want to avoid at all cost.

I personally don't care about you but I do not want art to continue to spread false and hurtful ideas about people and that is why we criticize art as a society and say "Hey, this is not okay." Media is a powerful influence and we don't want our children consuming media that will teach them the wrong ideas about women, minorities and disabled people. Dragon Ball does not have a stark message of "sexual assault is bad", it has a message of "lol sexual assault" and "god women sure are a drag am i rite lulz?" Which is bad, actually.

If you want to go even broader beyond Dragon Ball and why 'woke' people 'cancel' other media look no further than transphobic shit like Ace Ventura, Naked Gun, Soapdish, The Silence of the Lambs among other popular films out of Hollywood. These are works that teach trans women to feel self-disgust and teach cis people to regard those women with scorn, fear and disgust.

Media absolutely needs to actively kept from being harmful to women and marginalized people because it can either continue to perpetuate the terrible treatment of women and minorties or introduce those ideas to a new generation, which is bad.

Dragon Ball does not criticize the mistreatment of women, it contributes to the idea that it's okay to think of women in that matter and does so in the context of a children's comic. Dragon Ball as it stands is not a franchise that contains work of eroticism aimed at an adult crowd but rather comics, cartoons, games and figures (barring the Dragon Ball Gals line) that is aimed at an audience of children. When in 1984 it introduces its main female character as an untrustworthy, vain teenage girl who is forced to piss herself in fear and continually sexually humiliate herself in the first six months of publication in comic aimed at children and general audiences there is definitely a problem. Furthermore, when in a chapter of a sequel comic published in the 2020s is released in which a long-running character does around trying to sexually assault three female characters (only to be turned off when they merge into a fatter form) there's something to be said for the continual misogyny and fatphobia of the franchise over the decades.

If they tired of anything they should simply not looking at that particular product.

Misogynistic commercial art made by mega corporations do not need you to defend them from criticism and shamming from the people who are affected by their negative infleunce.

It's not the creators job (and no one's) to make their product enjoyable by everyone on Earth.

It is entirely a creator's responsibility to prevent the spread of harmful ideas and misinformation. That is how we protect society.

Yes this sounds cruel but a world with zero creativity (because this is where wokeism will ultimately lead, if not stopped at one point), is the worst thing possible for humanity.

A world where media can propose that women are inferiror is bad, actually.

There is nothing creative about "put an old man sexually assaulting girls in this mainstream comic!"

There are 8 billion people on this planet now, it's impossible the create something that will be enjoyed by everyone.

It's possible to create a work that is not in favor of misogyny, queerphobia, racism, xenophobia, body-shaming or ablism.

Every product will trample on someone's sensitivity.

It's a good thing people can apologize and do better in the future! Well, unless you trample on the feelings of bigots, 'cause fuck those shitheads.

Woke people's dream of a "perfect world" is an impossible goal unless you dont create anything

It's actually absolutely possible to create things that do not promote misogyny, queerphobia, racism, xenophobia, body-shaming and ablism.

(and destory every old thing that don't fit your worldview, like the Nazis did with books

Your comparison holds no ground. Woke people are saying "Please don't promote bigotry" while Nazis burned the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft, destroying previous transgender healthcare research and setting back the normalization and healthcare of queer and transgender people—many of which are, again, woman—decades. Even in 2022 we have yet to advance knowledge and research about queer and trans healthcare to make up for all of the precious knowledge lost when the Nazis destroyed the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft.

Comparing the refusal to normalize bigotry to the actual bigoted practice of destroying queer and trans health research (not to mention the torturing and murdering of trans people, as happened during the Holocaust) is not a legitimate arguement.

or Wokes did with statues for example). (and as I said there will always be new sensitivities it's endless)

Slave-owners should absolutely not have statues and memorials erected in their honor and they should absolutely not have buildings and schools named after them. We should absolutely loudly destroy all memorials and statues erected to honor slave-overs and reminds minorities that they people that oppressed them and their ancestors should be remembered as heroes. We should absolutely write about in our history books all the ways in which slave-owners and Confederate soldiers were terrible human beings that nobody should ever praise, actually.

Fuck those guys and fuck anyone that likes them.

[MasenkoHA]

.

If you want to go even broader beyond Dragon Ball and why 'woke' people 'cancel' other media look no further than transphobic shit like Ace Ventura, Naked Gun, Soapdish, The Silence of the Lambs among other popular films out of Hollywood. .

I agree with 99 percent of what you're saying but I do want to point out for its part Silence of the Lambs tries to avoid transphobia by clarifying that most trans people aren't violent criminals and are normal people with Lecter even stating Buffalo Bill isn't really trans (and yes the idea of Hannibal getting to decide whose trans and who isn't is in and of itself problematic as hell). It doesn't change the fact that the movie still plays into transphobic fears of effiminate creepy men appropriating womanhood to prey on cis women but the movie does attempt damage control for its potential contributing to vilifying an already vilified group. The end product is still problematic but its not maliciously hateful towards trans women the same way that Ace Ventura and Dressed to Kill and Sleepaway Camp were

[JulieYBM]

I agree with 99 percent of what you're saying but I do want to point out for its part Silence of the Lambs tries to avoid transphobia by clarifying that most trans people aren't violent criminals and are normal people with Lecter even stating Buffalo Bill isn't really trans (and yes the idea of Hannibal getting to decide whose trans and who isn't is in and of itself problematic as hell). It doesn't change the fact that the movie still plays into transphobic fears of effiminate creepy men appropriating womanhood to prey on cis women but the movie does attempt damage control for its potential contributing to vilifying an already vilified group. The end product is still problematic but its not maliciously hateful towards trans women the same way that Ace Ventura and Dressed to Kill and Sleepaway Camp were

Like, 'tries to avoid transphobia, but is ultimately still transphobic' is still, well, transphobia. Everyone (trans people included!) recognize Gumb as a trans woman and associate her with transitioning, especially when we go back to people who transitioned in the 1990s, 2000s and early 2010s. Furthermore, the idea that you need a doctor to tell you that you're trans is an inherently transphobic notion. Well-meaning ignorance from a creator is still its own harm and should be called out for it, especially when it has ultimately lead to so much distress. This is totally me just copying someone else's anecdote but I'm always reminded of how Jen Richards talked about in the documentary Disclosure how when she came out to a friend her friend replied "What, like Buffalo Bill?" That's the sort of thing I'm referring to and a throwaway, half-hearted line really doesn't come across as a sincere attempt when the movie ultimately re-enforces all those terrible tropes.

I meant to add The Crying Game, Dressed to Kill and Sleepaway Camp to the list but ran out of spoons. Oh, Psycho is another one. Ugh.

[Shaddy]

Criticizing ok, cancelling not ok.

(these are the same thing, you just call them something different depending on which one personally benefits you)

[Soppa Saia People]

To be fair, Tokyo Mew Mew New aired last season, it was more accurate adaptation, and Kish is still same creep towards Ichigo, and yesterday 1st episode of Urusei Yatsura remake aired, and Ataru is still same womanizer, so if Toei wanted to put dirty jokes back in, but it was more of original Dragon Ball thing, and since no one cares about that series...

It's not a Shoujo series without one form of abuse, unwanted sexual advances, suicide or some type of extremely inappropriate relationship.

[ABED]

I'm leaving you all to the discussion about dirty jokes in a kids show, because what I'm really interested in is the notion of the show still being aimed at children instead of growing up with the fans. A while back I had a discussion with a fellow member about this and they hated the idea that the shows they watched as a kid didn't age with them. Hate is perhaps too strong a word. Resent is probably better. Regardless, it's something that always stuck with me.

I just don't get that mentality. It's okay for you (the royal you obviously) to have grown too old for a thing you used to like and moving on. It's okay to still enjoy a thing you liked as a kid even if it's no longer for you.

Thing you enjoyed at age 8 shouldn't have to adjust its sensibilities to appeal to you at age 35 because you refuse to watch other things.

I agree with your point but I also think that there should be room for anyone to make a more 'grown up' (or rather, 'different') version of one's chuldhood art. I think there's plenty of space to make great art in that respect as has been seen with works like Festival of Champions or other fan fic and fan comic writers.

I agree that there is room to age up children's shows, even if it's still for kids but an older demographic. Masters of the Universe: Revelation is a good example.

[MuscleRobo]

I just don't get that mentality. It's okay for you (the royal you obviously) to have grown too old for a thing you used to like and moving on. It's okay to still enjoy a thing you liked as a kid even if it's no longer for you.

Thing you enjoyed at age 8 shouldn't have to adjust its sensibilities to appeal to you at age 35 because you refuse to watch other things.

I agree with your point but I also think that there should be room for anyone to make a more 'grown up' (or rather, 'different') version of one's chuldhood art. I think there's plenty of space to make great art in that respect as has been seen with works like Festival of Champions or other fan fic and fan comic writers.

I agree that there is room to age up children's shows, even if it's still for kids but an older demographic. Masters of the Universe: Revelation is a good example.

I feel like He-Man is another good example in that it has two shows and three toy lines right now. He-Man has toylines for Revelation which is aimed at older fans as well as the new "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe" CG show which is aimed at children and a new line of retro toys like the original 80's.

If you look at Dragon Ball toys we have things like the figuarts, dragon stars and even things like chara tops which are a beyblade-like that is released in Japan aimed at very young kids. They know there's a sizable fanbase or else they wouldn't be making toys that retail for 8000JPY.

[TheGreatness25]

Aside from two boob shots, a few middle fingers, and little boy junk, the original wasn't any more aimed for adults than the current product. And I think that the trouble in navigating around the boob shots, middle fingers, and little boy junk proved too much on an annoyance to be worth it. I don't think that I'm wrong in saying that Dragon Ball could have kept those things (there is manga and anime with much more "adult" things), but Dragon Ball was always heavily leaning toward kids than adults anyway, so why bother? If Toriyama/Shuesha/Toei had to draw a line in the sand and pick whether they wanted to keep in middle fingers and be a more "adult" series or remain a kids' series, I think they made the right choice.

I think the only thing leaving out the adult fans, is the fact that a series they liked as kids is still for kids to this day. I'm sure they exist, but really, how many people got into the series as adults in the 80s and 90s? I didn't crunch the numbers, but I'd say that the majority of fans liked it as kids. So, that's where the smart money lies. If the kids like it, adults would buy it for them anyway. If adults like it, then hey, the more the merrier. But, not targeting kids misses out on a huge audience--the type of audience that this whole thing started with.

And before it gets turned into a "They're just trying to line their pockets and make money"--yes. Yes, that's why anyone creates a movie, a TV show, a comic book, anything. I know we'd like to imagine that everything we love is this grand passion project, but let's be real--if there was no money in it, nobody would generally strive for anything in entertainment just to fuel their hobby. Nobody is saying it can't be a passion project and lucrative, but you can't be making this thing for a niche audience--it's a lot bigger than some indy project.

So, I don't have a problem with it being for kids. That's not the issue. Batman: The Animated Series was also for kids, but it was a masterpiece. So, being for kids and having good writing aren't mutually exclusive.

I've seen the target audience be blamed for different projects not pulling their weight and I just don't buy that argument. So, if the adult fans really have a problem with the series lacking, don't simply blame it on the target demo.