Frieza now stronger than Beerus?

[miguelnuva1]

Super Hero pretty much confirms Beerus is still stronger.

[theherodjl]

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on Gogeta vs Broly. I watched the fight again and once more, at no point was Broly ever an actual problem for Gogeta Blue. He may have dodged a couple of Broly's blasts but that's the only evidence that suggested that Broly was any challenge towards Gogeta at that level. Gogeta was smiling and having way too much fun throughout the fight and didn't unleash his 'true' power until the end when he finally decided to use the Kamehameha. Broly "soaking up damage" can simply be attributed to the many other fights we've seen throughout the series in which weaker opponents took a number of attacks without appearing to be totally beaten(Nappa vs Goku for example).
I'd put it like this.
SSJB Goku & Vegeta < Gogeta(base) < SSJ Broly < or = SSJ Gogeta < Raging SSJ Broly(conservative) ~ SSJ2 Gogeta < Raging SSJ Broly(maximum) < or = SSJ3 Gogeta << SSJB Gogeta

[miguelnuva1]

Gogeta actually blocked LSS Broly I his normal SS form. Even if Broly powered up a lot I still think SSB was overkill on Broly and Broly.just survived the blows because he was a rampaging tank.

Once Broly hit his limit Gogeta knew what he needed to do to kill him.

[Galan007]

I mean, typically a difference of around 2x(or in some cases much less) is enough for a character to casually dismantle their opponent in like two or three strikes. We have seen this happen numerous times throughout the series.

So the fact(s) that:
a.) Broly soaked all of Gogeta's attacks without sustaining any lasting damage at all(and actually just continued growing stronger.)
b.) Gogeta immediately felt the need to transform from SS1, all the way to SSB(bypassing SS2, SS3, and SSG), in response to Broly's FPSS form.
c.) It ultimately would have taken Gogeta's full power Kamehameha to put Broly down.

...Heavily suggests that their powers weren't worlds apart, imo.


That said, my personal opinion is that Broly and Gogeta were pretty close in terms of raw ki output: meaning that if a scouter could measure their respective powerlevels, they'd probably be in the same ballpark(with an edge to Gogeta.) However, Gogeta was also FAR superior in terms of technical combat skill, and obviously had a FAR more refined degree of ki-control as well... And with those massive advantages, he was able to style on Broly throughout most of their battle(despite their PLs potentially being in the same general realm), which makes sense. After all, Goku and Vegeta are two of the most seasoned and battle-hardened warriors in the entire multiverse, whereas that was Broly's first legitimate/all-out fight, ever. /shrug

[Hero]

I mean, Jesus. Broly was going toe-to-toe with Gogeta Blue while in his Super Saiyan state. Now Goku and Vegeta are each stronger than Broly? Are we expected to believe they're both stronger than Gogeta Blue was back then?

As nonsensical as it seems, that does seem to be the intent. Per Goku himself, Moro-73 was the strongest opponent he'd faced up to that point(IOW, Moro-73 > Broly.)

That said, Broly was soaking everything SSB Gogeta dished out, and just seemed to be getting more powerful the entire time. So far as we know, the only attack from SSB Gogeta that would have put Broly down for sure was his final 'full-force' Kamehameha... Flip side, MUI Goku toyed with Moro-73 as though he were a powerless feeb.

So based on the above, it seems logical to infer that MUI Goku(Moro arc) > SSB Gogeta. After all, Goku could have killed Moro-73 with low-diff, whereas it would have [evidently] taken SSB Gogeta's maximum power to definitively beat Broly. /shrug

This just makes Beerus' ever-changing power even more absurd. Base Gogeta was doing better against Broly than SSJB Goku. And then Gogeta eventually went SSJB himself. That's an utterly absurd jump in power on its own. And then Goku is now somehow even stronger than that on his own with UI.

And then UI Goku is even stronger by the Granola arc. And then Granola is stronger. And then Gas is stronger.

And yet Beerus is somehow still stronger than all of them. I really hope Black Frieza is stronger than Beerus because it'll make things interesting again. Things just seem to be moving so slow. If we have a villain who can actually threaten Beerus, it'll cause some real tension and let us see how Beerus deals with an actual threat.

But seriously, Super has more insane power scaling than DBZ or GT ever did.

[Hero]

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on Gogeta vs Broly. I watched the fight again and once more, at no point was Broly ever an actual problem for Gogeta Blue. He may have dodged a couple of Broly's blasts but that's the only evidence that suggested that Broly was any challenge towards Gogeta at that level. Gogeta was smiling and having way too much fun throughout the fight and didn't unleash his 'true' power until the end when he finally decided to use the Kamehameha. Broly "soaking up damage" can simply be attributed to the many other fights we've seen throughout the series in which weaker opponents took a number of attacks without appearing to be totally beaten(Nappa vs Goku for example).
I'd put it like this.
SSJB Goku & Vegeta < Gogeta(base) < SSJ Broly < or = SSJ Gogeta < Raging SSJ Broly(conservative) ~ SSJ2 Gogeta < Raging SSJ Broly(maximum) < or = SSJ3 Gogeta << SSJB Gogeta

While SSJB Gogeta was easily beating Broly, it wasn't an utter godstomp like SSJ Vegito vs Buuhan, SSJ Gogeta vs Janemba, or SSJ4 Gogeta vs Omega Shenron were. It definitely wasn't even as one-sided as SSJ2 Gohan vs the Cell Juniors or Bojack's minions was.

I mean, if you want to put numbers to it, and you use the standard 2x boost for SSJ2, then Gohan probably wasn't even 5x stronger than the Cell Juniors. Gogeta vs Broly seemed closer to Ultimate Gohan vs Super Buu.

So while SSJB Gogeta was stronger than LSSJ Broly, it couldn't have been a gigantic difference. I put them in the same tier.

[Anonymous Friend]

I mean, typically a difference of around 2x(or in some cases much less) is enough for a character to casually dismantle their opponent in like two or three strikes. We have seen this happen numerous times throughout the series.

So the fact(s) that:
a.) Broly soaked all of Gogeta's attacks without sustaining any lasting damage at all(and actually just continued growing stronger.)
b.) Gogeta immediately felt the need to transform from SS1, all the way to SSB(bypassing SS2, SS3, and SSG), in response to Broly's FPSS form.
c.) It ultimately would have taken Gogeta's full power Kamehameha to put Broly down.

...Heavily suggests that their powers weren't worlds apart, imo.


That said, my personal opinion is that Broly and Gogeta were pretty close in terms of raw ki output: meaning that if a scouter could measure their respective powerlevels, they'd probably be in the same ballpark(with an edge to Gogeta.) However, Gogeta was also FAR superior in terms of technical combat skill, and obviously had a FAR more refined degree of ki-control as well... And with those massive advantages, he was able to style on Broly throughout most of their battle(despite their PLs potentially being in the same general realm), which makes sense. After all, Goku and Vegeta are two of the most seasoned and battle-hardened warriors in the entire multiverse, whereas that was Broly's first legitimate/all-out fight, ever. /shrug

A) All that really says is that those attacks were not strong enough to damage him. Was there anything to indicate that Gogeta was going all out?

B) Did Gogeta feel the need or the storytellers feel the need to show off Gogeta Blue?

C) Not sure if we could tell that just from what we've seen in the movie itself.

[Galan007]

A) All that really says is that those attacks were not strong enough to damage him. Was there anything to indicate that Gogeta was going all out?

B) Did Gogeta feel the need or the storytellers feel the need to show off Gogeta Blue?

C) Not sure if we could tell that just from what we've seen in the movie itself.

a.) My only point is that, historically speaking, a power differential of around 2x(or sometimes less) has been enough for a character to effortlessly dismantle their opponent with a few strikes(see Goku vs. Nappa, Vegeta vs. Cui, Vegeta vs. Dodoria, Goku vs. Recoome, SS Trunks vs. Freeza, SS2 Gohan vs. Perfect Cell, Ultimate Gohan vs. Super Boo, etc etc)... So imo, the fact(s) that Broly soaked all of SSB Gogeta's attacks without sustaining any lasting damage at all, and that it would have required a fully charged Kamehameha to definitively drop him, suggests that the difference between their raw PLs was a good bit less than 2x.

b.) I can just go by what I saw in the film... And what I saw in the film is Gogeta jump all the way from SS1 to SSB, in order to combat Broly's FPSS form. Given that, from an in-universe perspective, Gogeta can very accurately sense ki, it wouldn't have made much sense for him to powerup to his max level if he believed that a lesser(and more power-conserving) form could get the job done.

c.) I mean, the musical score in the film where SSB Gogeta is charging his final attack is literally titled "Full-Force Kamehameha". Couple that with what we saw in the film itself, and it doesn't seem like the intent was for Gogeta to have been holding back there, imo. /shrug

[Lionel]

I think Beerus is still stronger but the gap has likely decreased enormously. Against even the likes of evolved blue Vegeta we see Beerus exert himself to a degree when reacting to his opponent. It was a one sided fight but one which he didn't appear to have the luxury of treating like it were dismissible child's play. We don't know precisely how much stronger Black Freeza is but it has to be enough to at least prompt the Hakaishin into exerting himself more in order to maintain his superiority. Beerus might actually have to fight a bit seriously if he wants to bring down Freeza.

[theherodjl]

While SSJB Gogeta was easily beating Broly, it wasn't an utter godstomp like SSJ Vegito vs Buuhan, SSJ Gogeta vs Janemba, or SSJ4 Gogeta vs Omega Shenron were. It definitely wasn't even as one-sided as SSJ2 Gohan vs the Cell Juniors or Bojack's minions was.

I mean, if you want to put numbers to it, and you use the standard 2x boost for SSJ2, then Gohan probably wasn't even 5x stronger than the Cell Juniors. Gogeta vs Broly seemed closer to Ultimate Gohan vs Super Buu.

So while SSJB Gogeta was stronger than LSSJ Broly, it couldn't have been a gigantic difference. I put them in the same tier.

It was a godstomp. Broly's best offense in the fight was managing to land some blows on SSJ Gogeta but failing to deal any serious damage as Gogeta just kept battling through any blow that Broly dealt. Once Gogeta went SSJB though, Broly was unable to do a single thing in the fight except rage out and then be pelted by Gogeta's toying-around attacks. If anything, Broly and SSJ Gogeta were in the same tier and any power up that Broly may have attained from losing control was minimal in comparison to the boost that Gogeta got going from SSJ to SSJB.
Unless SSJB is somehow only 2x higher than SSJ, SSJB Gogeta was absolutely way stronger than Broly at his strongest.

[Galan007]

But if the difference between SSB Gogeta and FPSS Broly was as vast as you're implying, then even Gogeta's "toying around attacks" still would've had significant lasting effects on Broly(as we've seen in numerous battles, across both DBZ and DBS), yet they didn't. Broly soaked nearly everything without taking any noteworthy damage at all, and just continued growing stronger the entire time... And like I've mentioned: it would have ultimately taken a fully-charged Kamehameha for Gogeta to definitively put Broly down.

So if their raw powers were indeed worlds apart(like you're saying), then how do you reconcile that?

[Cipher]

Possibly. The Oracle Fish did have a premonition that the power balance in the universe was about to change. The Oracle Fish not recognizing Gas seems to suggest the premonition was about someone else.

Despite knowing that Black Freeza had just effortlessly dropped Gas+UI Goku+UE Vegeta, Whis still didn't seem entirely convinced that he was "the strongest warrior" as prophesied by Oracle Fish, and further suggested that said warrior may have already emerged elsewhere in the universe.

Personally, my money is still on Oob. Per the Moro arc, we know he has an absolutely gargantuan amount of latent God ki at his disposal(the energy he casually donated was enough to take Goku from depleted base, back to MUI+.) So I suspect that once Oob masters his power, he could very well end up being "the strongest"... Which would also help reconcile Goku fangirling over him during the EoZ chapters and whatnot.

Not to put too much of a wrench into this, but Oob is already around seven or eight years old as of the Granolah arc, and has already manifested his powers once (Moro arc climax), so it’d be a bit odd for the Oracle Fish to suddenly make a prophesy related to him. Goku’s still a little ways off from training him as well, and the wording on the prophecy is much more immediate.

(I don’t suspect we’ll get exact closure on it though. The way the arc ends seems to keep it playfully/purposefully vague as to whether he was talking about Freeza or someone else in typical Dragon Ball “there’s always someone better” fashion, with each working fairly well as a cap-off.)

[Anonymous Friend]

But if the difference between SSB Gogeta and FPSS Broly was as vast as you're implying, then even Gogeta's "toying around attacks" still would've had significant lasting effects on Broly(as we've seen in numerous battles, across both DBZ and DBS), yet they didn't. Broly soaked nearly everything without taking any noteworthy damage at all, and just continued growing stronger the entire time... And like I've mentioned: it would have ultimately taken a fully-charged Kamehameha for Gogeta to definitively put Broly down.

So if their raw powers were indeed worlds apart(like you're saying), then how do you reconcile that?

When I play fight with a toddler or kitten, do I leave lasting effects on them?

[Galan007]

When I play fight with a toddler or kitten, do I leave lasting effects on them?

When you play fight with a toddler or kitten, is this the non-holding-back look/force you give when you're about to finish them off?

Spoiler:

...And does it require your full power to do so?

If the answer is "yes", then I'm sorry for you.

[Miracles]

Super Hero pretty much confirms Beerus is still stronger.

We have a winner.

Cheelai knew who Beerus was and stated that he is said to be the most fearsome in the universe.

[mute_proxy]

Beerus will always be stronger until it is officially said otherwise.

A character saying "this guy might be stronger than Beerus" isn't it.

Random power level/scaling math isn't it.

[Koitsukai]

You cannot consider the other guy a toddler only when you punch them. What about when they attack you? do you need to dodge a toddler or parry their attacks? why not tank the toddler? it's a toddler to you, after all. Who draws that arbitrary line, anyway?

Also, yes, about the OP, SH implies Broly was brought to Beerus' planet for protection from Freeza. So at the very least, the characters believe Beerus is still beyond Freeza. If he does surpass Beerus, probably will be revealed later on during the next arc, or whenever they deal with Freeza.
Although this makes the whole shifting the balance of the universe, whatever that's supposed to be, just empty words with no consequence at all (so far).

[Anonymous Friend]

When I play fight with a toddler or kitten, do I leave lasting effects on them?

When you play fight with a toddler or kitten, is this the non-holding-back look/force you give when you're about to finish them off?

Spoiler:

...And does it require your full power to do so?

If the answer is "yes", then I'm sorry for you.

Yes. Because we're play fighting. We stomp around our "fighting ring" like we're on RAW. And power ourselves up like we on DBZ.

Plus, I'm pretty sure Goku makes the same face when trying with his boys, and he's definitely not trying to kill them.

You cannot consider the other guy a toddler only when you punch them. What about when they attack you? do you need to dodge a toddler or parry their attacks? why not tank the toddler? it's a toddler to you, after all. Who draws that arbitrary line, anyway?

Superman can dodge bullets or tank them completely, and he misses them up. Or do you think his true weakness is an empty handgun that a robber just through at him?

[Seekeroftruth]

Super Hero pretty much confirms Beerus is still stronger.

We have a winner.

Cheelai knew who Beerus was and stated that he is said to be the most fearsome in the universe.

I thought we were of the agreement that everything in DB heroes is BS

[Miracles]

Super Hero pretty much confirms Beerus is still stronger.

We have a winner.

Cheelai knew who Beerus was and stated that he is said to be the most fearsome in the universe.

I thought we were of the agreement that everything in DB heroes is BS

Agreed. However this is Dragonball Super: Super Hero.