The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Hero]

How to you have Super Boo just this little above SSJ3 Goku?

Because we never got confirmation that SSJ Gotenks could ever beat Fat Buu, so I see no reason to have SSJ3 Gotenks that much above SSJ3 Goku. Also, the implication of BoG is that Goku is above or at least equal to Gotenks now, while still being below Namek Frieza at base. So it's hard to fit a big gap for Goku to overcome between his Buu saga self and Gotenks.

I just have Gotenks at 25% stronger than Buu saga Goku, meaning a SSJ KKx10 Goku should tie SSJ3 Gotenks.

[Goku9001]

How to you have Super Boo just this little above SSJ3 Goku?

Because we never got confirmation that SSJ Gotenks could ever beat Fat Buu, so I see no reason to have SSJ3 Gotenks that much above SSJ3 Goku. Also, the implication of BoG is that Goku is above or at least equal to Gotenks now, while still being below Namek Frieza at base. So it's hard to fit a big gap for Goku to overcome between his Buu saga self and Gotenks.

I just have Gotenks at 25% stronger than Buu saga Goku, meaning a SSJ KKx10 Goku should tie SSJ3 Gotenks.

We only have statements supporting SSJ Gotenks being stronger than Fat Buu with none indicating that he'd be weaker. Goku was the one who affirmed it and he was also the only one capable of seeing through Buu's false ki. Piccolo also suggested that SSJ Gotenks' power was high enough and merely wanted to test his speed. He only expresses doubts when a much stronger form of Buu emerges.

[Hero]

How to you have Super Boo just this little above SSJ3 Goku?

Because we never got confirmation that SSJ Gotenks could ever beat Fat Buu, so I see no reason to have SSJ3 Gotenks that much above SSJ3 Goku. Also, the implication of BoG is that Goku is above or at least equal to Gotenks now, while still being below Namek Frieza at base. So it's hard to fit a big gap for Goku to overcome between his Buu saga self and Gotenks.

I just have Gotenks at 25% stronger than Buu saga Goku, meaning a SSJ KKx10 Goku should tie SSJ3 Gotenks.

We only have statements supporting SSJ Gotenks being stronger than Fat Buu with none indicating that he'd be weaker. Goku was the one who affirmed it and he was also the only one capable of seeing through Buu's false ki. Piccolo also suggested that SSJ Gotenks' power was high enough and merely wanted to test his speed. He only expresses doubts when a much stronger form of Buu emerges.

And yet we never actually get to see SSJ Gotenks fight Fat Buu, right? Much less beat him.

To be fair, I do think SSJ Gotenks > Fat Buu was Toriyama's original idea, which would make SSJ3 Gotenks a lot stronger than SSJ3 Goku. The issue is that once Goku comes back to life, he's treated as #1, or at the very least #2 compared to Gohan. It's a dumb retcon, but I have no choice to go along with it. Otherwise, Goku would be fodder once he came back, and him losing to Beerus should've resulted in a "meh" shrug from Vegeta if Gotenks is like 100x stronger.

I just can't reconcile Goku being treated like the top dog with Gotenks being 10x times or more stronger.

[Koitsukai]

Base Vegito (Buu saga) vs Base Goku (GT 17 arc)

SSG Gogeta (Moro arc) vs UI Omen Goku (ep. 129)

Ultimate Gohan (Superhero) vs Merged Zamasu (Manga, no immortality)

Base Broly (Enraged, Superhero) vs Hit & Android 17 (both ToP anime)

SSJ2 Goku (start of Granolah arc) vs SSG Goku (U6 arc)

And if Kefla had access to UI Omen, who's the strongest character that she could beat?

1) Seeing it's all anime material, I'll go with the base Vegito that stomped Buuhan. I think Goku needs SS to deal with that. His base was around SS3 Goku, I don't think he got that much stronger after just one arc.

2) I would give Goku the edge if it was a Broly movie SSG Gogeta. One arc later, I think it's Gogeta's turn to win.

3) Gohan without much problem. Zamasu probably would've died against Goku without immortality. Definitely would've died against ToP SSB Goku, who is below current SSB Goku, who might even below the Gammas... who were slightly below Ultimate Gohan. Gohan goes to prison for killing a kaioshin.

4) If it's base Broly but angry, one of them is more than enough. If it's Ikari Broly, well, probably Hit can do it alone as well. He stood up to Jiren with his techniques and managed to hold him off for a while, and that Jiren was way above SSB, and he was above Ikari Broly. Add 17 into the mix and Broly is gone. I don't think Broly got a zenkai boost high enough to be able to counter a Hit that almost rings out Jiren, and will have 17 by his side.

5) Even if Goku got a 10x boost in the Moro arc, which I doubt, I don't think he can take SSG with just SS2.

6) Kefla was SSG level in her base form. SSB as SS, above that as SS2. Gogeta is already SSB in base, and with SSB he is not even on Beerus realm. SSB Kefla should be considerably weaker than SSB Gogeta, she should lose to FPSS Broly.
But let's say they are equals with FPSS Broly, due to Kale being U6 Broly and giving Kefla a wild card so she can catch up. The gap between base Gogeta and base Kefla is too big for Kale's nature to close, though.
I won't rely on multipliers because we have none for UI, but I guess Sign Kefla would be on TUI Goku's level. We can fit Gogeta Blue, Moro73, UI, Merus, Angel Moro, UE, Granola, two-eyed Granola, Adult Gas, Unleashed Adult Gast between FPSS Broly(SSB Kefla) and Sign Kefla.
And that's pretending her SSB is damn close to Gogeta's when their base forms are 10x or 50x apart. Without that, she'd be probably on initial UE's level?

[Champa The Destroyer]

Goku dials back to regular Kaioken and one shots him.

How do you have Ultimate Gohan in Superhero compared to in the ToP? I know Gohan didn't really train but considering his parity with the Gammas, I think he seems quite a lot stronger than in the ToP. Whereas this Goku is way weaker than the one compared to the Gammas, as this is before the ToP (goku gained a ton of power throughout the tournament)

So I feel like if SSBKKx2 could one-shot Gohan then that would imply that Superhero Goku in normal SSB could do the same, as goku more than doubled in power since before the tournament

I respect your opinion though I just respectfully disagree

That's the thing. I see no reason to believe Goku grew in power on his regular forms during the ToP.

I can accept that, but even then, Goku has grown vastly stronger after the ToP. He trained with Merus, had power boosts and growth against Moro, trained even more with Whis, and grows in power against Granolah and Gas, and then training with Vegeta and/or Broly leading into Superhero. So even discounting any potential growth in the ToP, I think that
SSB Goku in Superhero is vastly different than SSB Goku leading up to the ToP.

And considering how effective angel training is, how he trains with two different angels, grows in battle throughout 2 arcs, trains with Vegeta and Broly, and Gohan fights with a Gamma who's compared to Goku, imo Ultimate Gohan from Superhero has to be above SSBKKx2 Goku from before the ToP.

[Champa The Destroyer]

Base Vegito (Buu saga) vs Base Goku (GT 17 arc)

SSG Gogeta (Moro arc) vs UI Omen Goku (ep. 129)

Ultimate Gohan (Superhero) vs Merged Zamasu (Manga, no immortality)

Base Broly (Enraged, Superhero) vs Hit & Android 17 (both ToP anime)

SSJ2 Goku (start of Granolah arc) vs SSG Goku (U6 arc)

And if Kefla had access to UI Omen, who's the strongest character that she could beat?

1. I think Gogeta stomps here, I'd have SSJ Gogeta as close or maybe even slightly above UI Omen in power. So SSG Gogeta overcomes the dodging and demolishes him.

2. I gotta go with Ultimate Gohan, as I have the power gap between the Superhero-Granolah arc era and the pre-ToP era as very massive. I have Ultimate Gohan as around current MSSB level, and I don't think manga merged zamasu is on that level. His techniques can give Gohan a challenge but he loses.

3. Honestly, I can't give an opinion on this one either way, as I have no idea where Broly lies. He could be anywhere from Base Saiyan level to current SSG level, so I won't give a decisive answer on this one.

4. This is a good one tbh. Can he use the principles of Ultra Instinct in SSJ2 like against Granolah? If so he 100% wins, but if not, I'm not sure. I think I'd still learn toward SSJ2 Goku to win 6 or 7 times out of 10, as we're very far removed from the U6 arc; it would be sorta like comparing SSJ Goku from RoF to SSJ3 Buu arc Goku.

5. How much control of it does she have? If it's basic UI Omen like Goku had in Episode 110, I think Kefla could beat ToP Jiren, but that's about it, and even then she'd have to do it quickly. If she has it at the level that Goku did in the Moro arc for example (use it at will, but not using True Ultra Instinct), I think she could beat Moro 73 and give a good fight against Granolah, but can't quite beat him unless she had Perfected UI or True UI.

[XenoSaiyan]

SSG Goku (BoG) vs 30 Kid Boos

SSJ3 Future Gohan vs 1st Form Cell (when he interrupted Piccolo and 17's fight)

SSJ3 Vegito (Buu saga) vs SSJ4 Goku (Baby arc)

SSG Vegeta (late Moro arc) vs Base Kefla

And if Videl in her prime had Kaioken times 100, who is the strongest character that she could beat?

[Goku9001]

Because we never got confirmation that SSJ Gotenks could ever beat Fat Buu, so I see no reason to have SSJ3 Gotenks that much above SSJ3 Goku. Also, the implication of BoG is that Goku is above or at least equal to Gotenks now, while still being below Namek Frieza at base. So it's hard to fit a big gap for Goku to overcome between his Buu saga self and Gotenks.

I just have Gotenks at 25% stronger than Buu saga Goku, meaning a SSJ KKx10 Goku should tie SSJ3 Gotenks.

We only have statements supporting SSJ Gotenks being stronger than Fat Buu with none indicating that he'd be weaker. Goku was the one who affirmed it and he was also the only one capable of seeing through Buu's false ki. Piccolo also suggested that SSJ Gotenks' power was high enough and merely wanted to test his speed. He only expresses doubts when a much stronger form of Buu emerges.

And yet we never actually get to see SSJ Gotenks fight Fat Buu, right? Much less beat him.

To be fair, I do think SSJ Gotenks > Fat Buu was Toriyama's original idea, which would make SSJ3 Gotenks a lot stronger than SSJ3 Goku. The issue is that once Goku comes back to life, he's treated as #1, or at the very least #2 compared to Gohan. It's a dumb retcon, but I have no choice to go along with it. Otherwise, Goku would be fodder once he came back, and him losing to Beerus should've resulted in a "meh" shrug from Vegeta if Gotenks is like 100x stronger.

I just can't reconcile Goku being treated like the top dog with Gotenks being 10x times or more stronger.

That sounds like a personal gripe rather than an objective complaint.

I'd say this is comparable to Kaioshin vs Piccolo. We never see the outcome of the battle but the narrative clearly points us in a specific direction.

[ZombieVito]

How to you have Super Boo just this little above SSJ3 Goku?

Because we never got confirmation that SSJ Gotenks could ever beat Fat Buu, so I see no reason to have SSJ3 Gotenks that much above SSJ3 Goku. Also, the implication of BoG is that Goku is above or at least equal to Gotenks now, while still being below Namek Frieza at base. So it's hard to fit a big gap for Goku to overcome between his Buu saga self and Gotenks.

I just have Gotenks at 25% stronger than Buu saga Goku, meaning a SSJ KKx10 Goku should tie SSJ3 Gotenks.

We only have statements supporting SSJ Gotenks being stronger than Fat Buu with none indicating that he'd be weaker. Goku was the one who affirmed it and he was also the only one capable of seeing through Buu's false ki. Piccolo also suggested that SSJ Gotenks' power was high enough and merely wanted to test his speed. He only expresses doubts when a much stronger form of Buu emerges.

Daizenshuu basically says Gotenks needs to train in the RoSaT to surpass Vegeta.

SS2 Vegeta > SS Gotenks [Pre RoSaT].

[Goku9001]

Because we never got confirmation that SSJ Gotenks could ever beat Fat Buu, so I see no reason to have SSJ3 Gotenks that much above SSJ3 Goku. Also, the implication of BoG is that Goku is above or at least equal to Gotenks now, while still being below Namek Frieza at base. So it's hard to fit a big gap for Goku to overcome between his Buu saga self and Gotenks.

I just have Gotenks at 25% stronger than Buu saga Goku, meaning a SSJ KKx10 Goku should tie SSJ3 Gotenks.

We only have statements supporting SSJ Gotenks being stronger than Fat Buu with none indicating that he'd be weaker. Goku was the one who affirmed it and he was also the only one capable of seeing through Buu's false ki. Piccolo also suggested that SSJ Gotenks' power was high enough and merely wanted to test his speed. He only expresses doubts when a much stronger form of Buu emerges.

Daizenshuu basically says Gotenks needs to train in the RoSaT to surpass Vegeta.

SS2 Vegeta > SS Gotenks [Pre RoSaT].

That would be in reference to Base Gotenks when reconciling that statement with what we are told in the manga. SSJ Gotenks is firmly established to be the strongest.

[TobyS]

Because we never got confirmation that SSJ Gotenks could ever beat Fat Buu, so I see no reason to have SSJ3 Gotenks that much above SSJ3 Goku. Also, the implication of BoG is that Goku is above or at least equal to Gotenks now, while still being below Namek Frieza at base. So it's hard to fit a big gap for Goku to overcome between his Buu saga self and Gotenks.

I just have Gotenks at 25% stronger than Buu saga Goku, meaning a SSJ KKx10 Goku should tie SSJ3 Gotenks.

We only have statements supporting SSJ Gotenks being stronger than Fat Buu with none indicating that he'd be weaker. Goku was the one who affirmed it and he was also the only one capable of seeing through Buu's false ki. Piccolo also suggested that SSJ Gotenks' power was high enough and merely wanted to test his speed. He only expresses doubts when a much stronger form of Buu emerges.

And yet we never actually get to see SSJ Gotenks fight Fat Buu, right? Much less beat him.

To be fair, I do think SSJ Gotenks > Fat Buu was Toriyama's original idea, which would make SSJ3 Gotenks a lot stronger than SSJ3 Goku. The issue is that once Goku comes back to life, he's treated as #1, or at the very least #2 compared to Gohan. It's a dumb retcon, but I have no choice to go along with it. Otherwise, Goku would be fodder once he came back, and him losing to Beerus should've resulted in a "meh" shrug from Vegeta if Gotenks is like 100x stronger.

I just can't reconcile Goku being treated like the top dog with Gotenks being 10x times or more stronger.

Not only do we get SS1 Gotenks being implied to be stronger than goku and fat buu.
And we have ss3 stronger,
people forget he did a bunch of training and got stronger in addition to unlocking super saiyan 3.

[ZombieVito]

We only have statements supporting SSJ Gotenks being stronger than Fat Buu with none indicating that he'd be weaker. Goku was the one who affirmed it and he was also the only one capable of seeing through Buu's false ki. Piccolo also suggested that SSJ Gotenks' power was high enough and merely wanted to test his speed. He only expresses doubts when a much stronger form of Buu emerges.

Daizenshuu basically says Gotenks needs to train in the RoSaT to surpass Vegeta.

SS2 Vegeta > SS Gotenks [Pre RoSaT].

That would be in reference to Base Gotenks when reconciling that statement with what we are told in the manga. SSJ Gotenks is firmly established to be the strongest.

That doesn't make sense at all. Gotenks wouldn't need the RoSaT to surpass Vegeta then. He would just turn Super Saiyan to do it.

[Goku9001]

Daizenshuu basically says Gotenks needs to train in the RoSaT to surpass Vegeta.

SS2 Vegeta > SS Gotenks [Pre RoSaT].

That would be in reference to Base Gotenks when reconciling that statement with what we are told in the manga. SSJ Gotenks is firmly established to be the strongest.

That doesn't make sense at all. Gotenks wouldn't need the RoSaT to surpass Vegeta then. He would just turn Super Saiyan to do it.

Then the Daizenshuu is wrong.

[ZombieVito]

That would be in reference to Base Gotenks when reconciling that statement with what we are told in the manga. SSJ Gotenks is firmly established to be the strongest.

That doesn't make sense at all. Gotenks wouldn't need the RoSaT to surpass Vegeta then. He would just turn Super Saiyan to do it.

Then the Daizenshuu is wrong.

Or maybe your interpretation of the manga is wrong.

[Analytic]

The Daizenshuu being wrong is more likely in this case. Piccolo's only concern with SS Gotenks going to fight Boo was his time limit. Compared to when Base Gotenks tried to fight Boo it was made very clear by Piccolo that he couldn't win in that state. Also, from a storytelling perspective it doesn't make much sense to have Boo power up immensely if Gotenks was already weaker than him.

[ZombieVito]

SSG Goku (BoG) vs 30 Kid Boos

SSJ3 Future Gohan vs 1st Form Cell (when he interrupted Piccolo and 17's fight)

SSJ3 Vegito (Buu saga) vs SSJ4 Goku (Baby arc)

SSG Vegeta (late Moro arc) vs Base Kefla

And if Videl in her prime had Kaioken times 100, who is the strongest character that she could beat?

1) Goku if he doesn't fuck around.
2) Gohan finger flicks Cell into oblivion. Not even Semi Cell can beat this Gohan.
3) Goku.
4) SS Kefla was stated to be on par with the Genkidama that Goku did against Jiren so she's at minimum 20 times stronger than SSB Goku which would make her 20 times stronger than SSG in base. She kills SSG Vegeta in a second.
5) Raditz.

[Koitsukai]

I have no clue about the Gotenks-Vegeta debate, but I still can't believe people giving so much credit to ancillary material written by NOT-TORIYAMA about Toriyama's work. Saying "but daizenshuu said so and so" like if they were, IDK, Tenshinhan's words, when it's just some blokes' takes trying to sell magazines. Anyway...

SSG Goku (BoG) vs 30 Kid Boos

SSJ3 Future Gohan vs 1st Form Cell (when he interrupted Piccolo and 17's fight)

SSJ3 Vegito (Buu saga) vs SSJ4 Goku (Baby arc)

SSG Vegeta (late Moro arc) vs Base Kefla

And if Videl in her prime had Kaioken times 100, who is the strongest character that she could beat?

1) A regular KHH from SSG Goku should destroy Buuhan on the spot. That same, casual attack should take out several Kid Boos, too. A determined SSG Goku takes all of them out in no time.

2) Gohan. If his hypothetical SS2 would be close to Android 17, a 4x boost puts him beyond 2nd form Cell.

3) I guess SS3 Vegito would be on Ohzaru VB's realm. Goku would still win.

4) Kefla beat a tired SSG Goku from two arcs prior. Vegeta was a beast by the end of the Moro arc, his FP was around Broly's, Kefla is so dead.

5) She'd be around 1,000 or so. So, I guess Goku.

[Goku9001]

That doesn't make sense at all. Gotenks wouldn't need the RoSaT to surpass Vegeta then. He would just turn Super Saiyan to do it.

Then the Daizenshuu is wrong.

Or maybe your interpretation of the manga is wrong.

Could be. The impression that I got from Goku's affirmation of SSJ Gotenks being stronger than Buu, Piccolo's lack of doubt about SSJ Gotenks' power (in contrast to Base Gotenks), and Kuririn affirming that Gotenks is the strongest according to Goku makes it impossible to infer that SSJ Gotenks was actually weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta. When the narrative is pointing in the opposite direction, you would have to go against the narrative and claim that all of the characters were liars to make the Daizenshuu work based on your interpretation of it.

I actually don't think it's incorrect. I believe it was likely referring to Base Gotenks being weaker than Vegeta until after the Rosat which makes sense given what the manga shows us. If you want to take it literally, then the fact that the entry emphasizes Gotenks' improvement in the RoSaT enabling him to surpass Vegeta would suggest that Gotenks hadn't surpassed Vegeta until he acquired Super Saiyan 3. Otherwise, wouldn't another benchmark be used to emphasize Gotenks' growth?

Admittedly, I should do more research and see if there are character entries that establish a user's strength in a specific form. The only one that comes to mind is the comparison between 18 and the kids but I think it actually does reference the kids' form right?

[Goku9001]

SSG Goku (BoG) vs 30 Kid Boos

SSJ3 Future Gohan vs 1st Form Cell (when he interrupted Piccolo and 17's fight)

SSJ3 Vegito (Buu saga) vs SSJ4 Goku (Baby arc)

SSG Vegeta (late Moro arc) vs Base Kefla

And if Videl in her prime had Kaioken times 100, who is the strongest character that she could beat?

SSG Goku (BoG) vs 30 Kid Boos: With the implications of Super Saiyan God Goku being way beyond Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto's power as of Battle of Gods would naturally allow Goku to eliminate them. In fact, as of the Buu Saga, Vegetto was hinted being able to eliminate Pure Buu in a single blast easily.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.5
Context: after Super Saiyan 3 Goku explains he needs to gather ki for 1 minute to defeat pure Boo
Goku: “Dammnit~~~ If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”

Naturally, Super Saiyan God Goku should be capable of replicating that a lot easier.

SSJ3 Future Gohan vs 1st Form Cell (when he interrupted Piccolo and 17's fight): If we assume SEG multipliers, then Future Gohan would be 4x stronger. In that case, I don't think he can do it since I believe Android 19 (Pre) is above Yardrat Goku.

SSJ3 Vegito (Buu saga) vs SSJ4 Goku (Baby arc): Undecided. Not too familiar with GT.

SSG Vegeta (late Moro arc) vs Base Kefla: Following the anime powerscaling, Vegeta easily. Blue Goku and Vegeta already surpassed Kaioken x20 Blue Goku and Vegeta's Final Flash explicitly surpassed Kaioken x20 Blue Goku's Kamehameha by a significant margin. So at the minimum, he is 20x+ stronger, and then when you factor in the significant improvements they made over the Broly and Moro arc, then SSJG Vegeta should win very easily.

And if Videl in her prime had Kaioken times 100, who is the strongest character that she could beat?

Not sure. Her power level would likely be <1000 so the strongest she'd beat are BoZ Goku, Piccolo, and Saiyan Saga Chaozu.

[ZombieVito]

Tao Pai Pai vs 22nd TB Yamcha.
Videl [Post Ki training] vs Ranfan.
Assistant Black vs General Blue.
Son Gohan [Uranai Baba arc] vs Master Shen.
Base Vegetto vs Ultimate Gohan. Both Boo arc.
Guldo [No psychic powers] vs Nappa.
Krillin [Mecha arc] vs Captain Ginyu [Namek arc].
Paragus [DBS flashback] vs Piccolo [Vegeta arc].
Kid Vegeta [DBS flashback] vs Goku [Vegeta arc; No KK].
Pan [Super Hero] vs Base Goku [Android arc].