Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

So, in Toei Anime Continuity and in Toriyama's own design notes, Super Saiyan Rosé is Goku Black's version of Super Saiyan.

This is straight up misleading. The very note you posted has AT saying Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Rosé are different forms.

He is literally saying that Super Saiyan Rosé is simply a "Super Saiyan of a slightly different colour". He also says that he "becomes a Super Saiyan".

The note has 17 words in total and he managed to repeat twice "Super Saiyan" with no mention of "Blue" or "God" anywhere.

Absolutely nothing about what I wrote is misleading. It seems that you can't believe that Black stomped Goku and Vegeta in a form that is equated by the author himself to Super Saiyan, but this shouldn't surprise you. Your disbelief is misplaced. Base Black already blitzed and completely toyed with SSB Vegeta, he is just that strong. It's not surprising that he only needs a form comparable to SS1 to stomp SSB saiyans.

In Toei Anime Canon, he evolves Super Saiyan Rosé to such an extent (after getting level 2 and 3 like normal DBZ Super Saiyan form) that it takes SSB Evolved Gogeta himself to put him down.

Toei and Toriyama are not messing around when it comes to Goku Black. He is that strong.

Any version of Super Saiyan can be called a Super Saiyan

This never happens.

[Thani]

Tori does make a distinction, however. He says Black can turn Super Saiyan like Goku AND "a Super Saiyan of a slight different color from Goku". He has those two forms, as per Toriyama's notes. They can't be the same, as per the premise of the note.

[SupremeKai25]

Tori does make a distinction, however. He says Black can turn Super Saiyan like Goku AND "a Super Saiyan of a slight different color from Goku". He has those two forms, as per Toriyama's notes. They can't be the same, as per the premise of the note.

Goku Black has different hair colour because he's a God, so everything about him is unique and special compared to the mortals.

Goku Black never turned into the Golden-haired form in the Anime because he doesn't have it. In the Anime and in Toriyama Design notes, Super Saiyan Rosé replaces the Golden-haired form as Black's standard/basic Super Saiyan form.

[Grimlock]

To begin with, it's not just promotional material that states that. He is explicitly referred to as a Super Saiyan in the Anime itself:

Spoiler:

Any version of Super Saiyan can be called a Super Saiyan

This never happens.

Oh boy...

• Super Saiyan 2 being referred as "Super Saiyan".
• Super Saiyan 2 being referred as "Super Saiyan" again.
• Super Saiyan 2 being referred as "Super Saiyan" yet again.
• Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan being referred as "(Legendary) Super Saiyan".
• Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 being referred as "Super Saiyan". (Manga)

I would look for the Dragon Ball Super manga occasions, but nah... Too much work for so little. These are enough.

Which is why in Super Dragon Ball Heroes anime (which is produced by Toei and follows Anime continuity, for instance look at Fused Zamasu and his bandages over his Corrupted half from the anime), Black later evolves Rosé to Rosé 2 (with lightning sparkles like SS2) and Rosé 3 (with long hair and no eyebrows like SS3). Because Rosé is his own version of SS1.

Secondly, Toriyama's own design notes refer to him as a "Super Saiyan":

Spoiler:

So, in Toei Anime Continuity and in Toriyama's own design notes, Super Saiyan Rosé is Goku Black's version of Super Saiyan.

This means that, when Black was stomping these guys, he was in Super Saiyan form.

Yes, you are halfway correct. The reason why there is Super Saiyan Rosé 2 and 3 is because of the very same reason why there is Super Saiyan Rosé. Goku Black is combining his god status/Ki with those regular Super Saiyan forms.

To say that Super Saiyan Rosé is his regular Super Saiyan is to say he's not combining his god status/Ki with Super Saiyan, which is outright wrong. The basis for all of this are the regular Super Saiyan transformations, yes, but it's not just that, something else is being added. It's in complete contrast to Goku and Vegeta, who combine their power of Super Saiyan God with the Super Saiyan form. A visual aid is the Super Saiyan Rosé's aura, which resembles much more Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan's aura than Super Saiyan's aura. Since this isn't the first or the second time I see you using this argument, please understand this already. It's odd that you, of all people, still don't know this. You are the one who should be the expert when it comes to Goku Black and Zamasu stuff.

For the gazillionth and last time, it's not wrong to refer to these forms as Super Saiyan, in a way, they are. But you cannot say they are the actual regular Super Saiyan form with no additional component mixed in. It is not.

[SupremeKai25]

To begin with, it's not just promotional material that states that. He is explicitly referred to as a Super Saiyan in the Anime itself:

Spoiler:

Any version of Super Saiyan can be called a Super Saiyan

This never happens.

Oh boy...

• Super Saiyan 2 being referred as "Super Saiyan".
• Super Saiyan 2 being referred as "Super Saiyan" again.
• Super Saiyan 2 being referred as "Super Saiyan" yet again.
• Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan being referred as "(Legendary) Super Saiyan".
• Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 being referred as "Super Saiyan". (Manga)

I would look for the Dragon Ball Super manga occasions, but nah... Too much work for so little. These are enough.

False equivalence. We're talking about Toriyama himself using the term "Super Saiyan", not characters in-universe who weren't even written by Toriyama in those scenes.

But even if I conceded on this point, you would still have to prove why we shouldn't take Toriyama's statement at face value (why should I think "oh but maybe he was referring to SSB and just wanted to be extra vague and ambiguous about it). I have Occam's Razor on my side. Furthermore, you would also have to explain why Black never used the Golden-haired form in the Anime.

For the gazillionth and last time, it's not wrong to refer to these forms as Super Saiyan, in a way, they are. But you cannot say they are the actual regular Super Saiyan form with no additional component mixed in. It is not.

I literally said that Black's form is not identical to the mortals', his is more special and unique because he's a God.

Goku Black has different hair colour because he's a God, so everything about him is unique and special compared to the mortals.

It's odd that you, of all people, still don't know this. You are the one who should be the expert when it comes to Goku Black and Zamasu stuff.

Zamasu is too complex of a character to know everything about him. I just do what I can in my own little way to understand the basics.

[QuakingStar]

It's been awhile since I saw the DBS FT anime arc, but didn't either Trunks or Black say that Black can go SS but he no longer needs to do so to beat Trunks? I know that was said in the manga in some way but I swear it was insinuated in the anime too.

[ZombieVito]

It's been awhile since I saw the DBS FT anime arc, but didn't either Trunks or Black say that Black can go SS but he no longer needs to do so to beat Trunks? I know that was said in the manga in some way but I swear it was insinuated in the anime too.

Nope. Only in the manga.

[SupremeKai25]

It's been awhile since I saw the DBS FT anime arc, but didn't either Trunks or Black say that Black can go SS but he no longer needs to do so to beat Trunks? I know that was said in the manga in some way but I swear it was insinuated in the anime too.

Black never references this Golden-haired form in the Anime.

The same is true for the Movie Continuity. In the Movie Toriyama Continuity, in the RoF Movie special, Trunks is seen fleeing from Base Goku Black, thus conceding inferiority to him and getting oneshot by a simple random ki blast. This takes place in the off-screen 1 year between Black's invasion and the start of the FT arc, which means that, even before the start of the FT arc proper, Trunks was already outclassed by Base Black.

From minute 1:23


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B801UdvxQvQ


The Anime shows us that, even when Black first invaded the Earth 1 year before the arc begins, he was able to fight Trunks in his Base form:

From minute 2:38

https://youtu.be/NUlsE3vYUZ0?t=157

[Grimlock]

False equivalence. We're talking about Toriyama himself using the term "Super Saiyan", not characters in-universe who weren't even written by Toriyama in those scenes.

Curious, you dismiss those evidences under the "not even written by Toriyama" excuse (not true in some of those links), but you have no problem using the images you posted as evidences even though we have no way to know if they were written by Toriyama. All because they "align" with your misinterpretation of Toriyama's line. You do see how contradictory, or better/worse yet, opportunistic you are being, right?

Also, GreatSaiyaman123, were you "talking about Toriyama himself using the term "Super Saiyan", not characters in-universe who weren't even written by Toriyama in those scenes" or were you speaking in general?

But even if I conceded on this point, you would still have to prove why we shouldn't take Toriyama's statement at face value

I don't have to prove anything. I never said we shouldn't take Toriyama's statement at face value. In fact, I myself will do that for you:

• "Becomes a Super Saiyan like Goku" )--> Here, Toriyama refers to the regular, yellow-haired Super Saiyan.

• "and a Super Saiyan of a slightly different color than Goku" )--> Here, Toriyama refers to the counterpart of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, the pink-haired known as: "Super Saiyan Rosé".

I have Occam's Razor on my side.

Which doesn't seem to be helping you at all. Curiously, someone else also came at me using that thing once, to this day it still hasn't helped them. Maybe you all should find a more reliable thing?

[SupremeKai25]

Curious, you dismiss those evidences under the "not even written by Toriyama" excuse (not true in some of those links), but you have no problem using the images you posted as evidences even though we have no way to know if they were written by Toriyama. All because they "align" with your misinterpretation of Toriyama's line. You do see how contradictory, or better/worse yet, opportunistic you are being, right?

The Anime scenes are accompanied by a Promotional Guide/Databook which confirms in a Meta/Doylist way that Super Saiyan Rosé is a version of Super Saiyan with power rivalling Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan; thus also establishing that the two terms are not interchangeable (I'm sure you've seen the scan already).

Also, your interpretation of Toriyama's notes unfortunately doesn't make sense. Only Rosé is presented in his Design notes and, with an arrow, he is pointing at Super Saiyan Rosé. Therefore, he is not saying "He can turn into a Super Saiyan like Goku AND ALSO, ON TOP OF THAT, ANOTHER Super Saiyan form with different hair colour than Goku". He is saying "He can turn into a Super Saiyan like Goku AND THAT FORM, INDICATED WITH AN ARROW, also has a different hair colour".

Your interpretation would be correct only if Toriyama also drew SS1 Black and pointed an arrow at it too. Instead, only Rosé is present in his design notes and he is pointing an arrow only at it, which means that he is taking only Rosé into consideration. Thus, when he says that he is turning into a Super Saiyan, he is referring to Rosé, and not to the Golden-haired form (which, as you can see, is absent from his design notes).

"and a Super Saiyan of a slightly different color than Goku" )--> Here, Toriyama refers to the counterpart of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, the pink-haired known as: "Super Saiyan Rosé".

If that's what Toriyama meant, then he would have said "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan of a slightly different colour".

[QuakingStar]

Curious, you dismiss those evidences under the "not even written by Toriyama" excuse (not true in some of those links), but you have no problem using the images you posted as evidences even though we have no way to know if they were written by Toriyama. All because they "align" with your misinterpretation of Toriyama's line. You do see how contradictory, or better/worse yet, opportunistic you are being, right?

The Anime scenes are accompanied by a Promotional Guide/Databook which confirms in a Meta/Doylist way that Super Saiyan Rosé is a version of Super Saiyan with power rivalling Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan; thus also establishing that the two terms are not interchangeable (I'm sure you've seen the scan already).

Also, your interpretation of Toriyama's notes unfortunately doesn't make sense. Only Rosé is presented in his Design notes and, with an arrow, he is pointing at Super Saiyan Rosé. Therefore, he is not saying "He can turn into a Super Saiyan like Goku AND ALSO, ON TOP OF THAT, ANOTHER Super Saiyan form with different hair colour than Goku". He is saying "He can turn into a Super Saiyan like Goku AND THAT FORM, INDICATED WITH AN ARROW, also has a different hair colour".

Your interpretation would be correct only if Toriyama also drew SS1 Black and pointed an arrow at it too. Instead, only Rosé is present in his design notes and he is pointing an arrow only at it, which means that he is taking only Rosé into consideration. Thus, when he says that he is turning into a Super Saiyan, he is referring to Rosé, and not to the Golden-haired form (which, as you can see, is absent from his design notes).

"and a Super Saiyan of a slightly different color than Goku" )--> Here, Toriyama refers to the counterpart of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, the pink-haired known as: "Super Saiyan Rosé".

If that's what Toriyama meant, then he would have said "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan of a slightly different colour".

Herms and Cipher already delved into this, the note was most assuredly speaking of normal colored SS and then Rose and in fact the manga even goes by that. I think the animators simply got confused.

[SupremeKai25]

Curious, you dismiss those evidences under the "not even written by Toriyama" excuse (not true in some of those links), but you have no problem using the images you posted as evidences even though we have no way to know if they were written by Toriyama. All because they "align" with your misinterpretation of Toriyama's line. You do see how contradictory, or better/worse yet, opportunistic you are being, right?

The Anime scenes are accompanied by a Promotional Guide/Databook which confirms in a Meta/Doylist way that Super Saiyan Rosé is a version of Super Saiyan with power rivalling Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan; thus also establishing that the two terms are not interchangeable (I'm sure you've seen the scan already).

Also, your interpretation of Toriyama's notes unfortunately doesn't make sense. Only Rosé is presented in his Design notes and, with an arrow, he is pointing at Super Saiyan Rosé. Therefore, he is not saying "He can turn into a Super Saiyan like Goku AND ALSO, ON TOP OF THAT, ANOTHER Super Saiyan form with different hair colour than Goku". He is saying "He can turn into a Super Saiyan like Goku AND THAT FORM, INDICATED WITH AN ARROW, also has a different hair colour".

Your interpretation would be correct only if Toriyama also drew SS1 Black and pointed an arrow at it too. Instead, only Rosé is present in his design notes and he is pointing an arrow only at it, which means that he is taking only Rosé into consideration. Thus, when he says that he is turning into a Super Saiyan, he is referring to Rosé, and not to the Golden-haired form (which, as you can see, is absent from his design notes).

"and a Super Saiyan of a slightly different color than Goku" )--> Here, Toriyama refers to the counterpart of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, the pink-haired known as: "Super Saiyan Rosé".

If that's what Toriyama meant, then he would have said "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan of a slightly different colour".

Herms and Cipher already delved into this, the note was most assuredly speaking of normal colored SS and then Rose and in fact the manga even goes by that. I think the animators simply got confused.

And why didn't he draw SS1 Goku Black in his design notes then? He drew all the new forms introduced in Super (Which were in his bullet points ofc), so why didn't he draw SS1 Black, especially if he was talking about it?

[LoganForkHands73]

Without having the strongest opinions on the subject, the most common sense conclusion to make in my eyes, just from observation and narrative context, is that Rosé is the equivalent to Blue. The aura, the introduction, the pink/blue parallels, its status as Goku Black's strongest form at the time, etc. with the manga's introduction of Black's basic Super Saiyan form as the final nail in the coffin.

As Grimlock says, in-universe, the characters regularly make no clear distinctions when talking about Super Saiyan forms in dialogue, which is pretty naturalistic. They even make shortened nicknames for forms that don't appear in marketing. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is itself a variant of Super Saiyan, so it isn't incredible to call Rosé a variant of it as well, as Toriyama vaguely implies. That concept art sheet itself doesn't discredit the -- to me -- fairly clear visual indications that Rosé is Black's Blue (the whole damn spectrum here, folks). It explicitly has divine ki, albeit a slightly different flavour thanks to Zamasu's innate nature as a god, hence the change in colouration. Heroes definitely muddies the waters with all its evolutions of Rosé, but it rarely ties itself to the logic of the main storyline in the first place. I feel that the only reason to cling to the idea of it being Black's equivalent of basic golden Super Saiyan is to exaggerate his strength and status even further than the series already does. Goku Black is already impressive enough, why does he need to be wanked further?

[Goku9001]

The anime clearly has Super Saiyan Rose as a different multiplier. Base Goku Black had power surpassing Super Saiyan God and upon obtaining Rose, he wasn't drastically above the Blue Saiyans.

How did this happen (twice), then? Goku Black, as Super Saiyan Rosé, takes them out of their Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan forms three times. I doubt someone who isn't "drastically" above the other could do that and consistently.

I'm referring to SSJR Goku Black's initial power. He has the edge on Goku but he isn't completely overwhelming or demolishing him. It's only after he powers up from Vegeta on the 2nd visit that he's far too strong for them to do anything about it to the point where he can fight all three Saiyans at once.

[SupremeKai25]

As Grimlock says, in-universe, the characters regularly make no clear distinctions when talking about Super Saiyan forms in dialogue, which is pretty naturalistic.

It can be excused with the normal old Super Saiyan forms because they don't actually have names, they're just numbered.

I don't remember this ever happening with the new forms, which have actual names (God, Blue, etc.).

The example above of Vegeta referring to SSB as "Legendary Super Saiyan" was to mock Frieza about his fear of the original prophecy about the "Legendary Super Saiyan". It was in a specific context.

Beyond that, characters don't refer to the God forms as simply "Super Saiyan".

Also, the Anime Promotional Guide makes a clear distinction between Black's Super Saiyan form and the SSGSS form:

Spoiler:

This guide is an extremely valuable and precious source because it exists to describe and clarify what is happening on-screen. It is telling us that Black's Super Saiyan Rosé form is just his version of Super Saiyan, but it has enough power to be a match for SSGSS (thus establishing a clear distinction between his SS form and SSGSS).


You would also have to explain why Black never used or even just referenced his Golden-haired form in the Anime. I posted a video above which shows us that Black, even during his first flashback fight ever with Trunks at the start of his invasion, was fighting in Base form, and not in SS1 form.

[Hugo Boss]

I don’t see the point in discussing whether SSRosé is equivalent to SS or SSGSS in this particular thread, since it doesn’t quite match any of those forms multipliers anyway (Goku Black‘s Base being very close to and SSRosé not too far ahead of SSGSS). Rather, it seems to me it’s not supposed to be equivalent to any other Super Saiyan form, it’s an unique Super Saiyan exclusive to Goku Black.

[Grimlock]

Heroes definitely muddies the waters with all its evolutions of Rosé

The only thing Heroes definitely does with all the evolutions is making things even more clear and obvious than it already is. Unless you do have any evidence that Super Saiyan Rosé 2 and 3 are, somehow, "impossible to happen". But I very much doubt it's the case.

but it rarely ties itself to the logic of the main storyline in the first place.

It actually does that quite often. You would see that if you actually stop and think/analyze properly, without letting your distaste for Heroes speaks louder. If it's not your intention of doing that, you may want to refrain from bringing it up in the first place.

I'm referring to SSJR Goku Black's initial power. He has the edge on Goku but he isn't completely overwhelming or demolishing him.

In their first fight, right after Goku Black first transformed into Super Saiyan Rosé, Goku Black sends Goku to the ground, the latter not coming out unfazed. Then, Goku Black would fire a Kamehameha that would, at the very least, leave Goku incapacitated to continue fighting (which is exactly what happens later on), but Zamasu interrupted it. Goku manages on his own for a very short time, but he is, once again, sent to the ground. After that, Goku somehow manages to get back on his feet but we don't see what happens here, he suddenly shows up beside Trunks, which is where and when Goku Black knocks him out of the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, assuring his second victory over that transformation as a Super Saiyan Rosé.

Yes, Goku Black completely overwhelmed and demolished Goku (maybe not during the fight, but the outcome speaks for itself), who didn't do more than trading simple blows that would ultimately leave him on the ground twice until he eventually lost his transformation to Super Saiyan Rosé. Unless the meaning of the words "overwhelm" and "demolish" changed (which I don't think it's the case), that is exactly what happened in their fight.

It can be excused with the normal old Super Saiyan forms because they don't actually have names, they're just numbered.

I don't remember this ever happening with the new forms, which have actual names (God, Blue, etc.). (...) Beyond that, characters don't refer to the God forms as simply "Super Saiyan".

Super Saiyan God being referred as a "Super Saiyan". And look, spoken by none other than your favorite character, so it is something you should have known about. Eh, for someone who only appear in this forum mostly to talk about Goku Black and Zamasu, you really don't seem to understand them that much, do you?

(Are you going to dismiss this evidence by saying it wasn't written by Toriyama, but by Toyotaro instead? What's your "excuse" going to be this time?).



Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan being referred as "Super Saiyan" by Goku and Toriyama. I'm using Kanzenshuu's own summary and the "character designs" section of that page this time (which tells us that Toriyama himself has called it just "Super Saiyan", which I believe was one of your previous "requirements". No "excuses" here, right?).

But that's enough. All the evidences are there. If even after all this you still want to be wrong, by all means, be my guest.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

This. They also are failing to mention that Black is ALWAYS in Godlike-Saiyan state. The only reason he had a normal looking SS was because he was using the same SS with God-like power that Goku was using vs Beerus. The moment it evolved in power enough it became SSGSS therefor for him SSRose IS SS/SSGSS. There is no normal base form for Goku Black, just God-like Saiyan.

Exactly, it all fits in like this. I think both versions consider Black to have God-like Ki (the anime put more emphasis on it) since he's either a Kaio (Manga) or a Kaioshin (Anime).

SSJB/SSJR/SSJGSSJ = SSJG + SSJ.

Initial Base Black = SSJ3 level, so if he becomes a SSJ he's not a SSJGSSJ yet. I imagine he'd have become a golden SSJ if he transformed against Goku in the past, although I'm not sure how strong he is when he fights Vegeta exactly he's definitely at least SSJG by this point.

Even in the manga he probably was still weaker somewhat weaker than Blue (And thus somewhat below God in base) since he could get another Zenkai from Vegeta before finally going Rosé and stomping Vegeta.

I don’t see the point in discussing whether SSRosé is equivalent to SS or SSGSS in this particular thread, since it doesn’t quite match any of those forms multipliers anyway (Goku Black‘s Base being very close to and SSRosé not too far ahead of SSGSS). Rather, it seems to me it’s not supposed to be equivalent to any other Super Saiyan form, it’s an unique Super Saiyan exclusive to Goku Black.

I agree, this only matters because people are trying to fit an exact multiplier into this. The 50x might work depending on what exactly SSJB Vegeta vs Black was supposed to mean, but the thousand-fold multiplier attributed to SSJB definitely doesn't. I've seen people use it in their power level lists and it's rather silly: Future Trunks, Base Goku Black and Present Zamasu, none of them needed Goku to use SSJ2 by that logic.

[ZombieVito]

I do hope a future Super guide gives multipliers for at least SSG and SSB. It would definitely help a lot for users who still do BP lists.

[LoganForkHands73]

Heroes definitely muddies the waters with all its evolutions of Rosé

The only thing Heroes definitely does with all the evolutions is making things even more clear and obvious than it already is. Unless you do have any evidence that Super Saiyan Rosé 2 and 3 are, somehow, "impossible to happen". But I very much doubt it's the case.

but it rarely ties itself to the logic of the main storyline in the first place.

It actually does that quite often. You would see that if you actually stop and think/analyze properly, without letting your distaste for Heroes speaks louder. If it's not your intention of doing that, you may want to refrain from bringing it up in the first place.

*Sigh*. Man, it's shit like this that makes me always regret conceding agreement or trying to have a mature conversation with you on anything. You're way too zealous and excitable on topics like this and always resort attacking everyone on the most minute disagreements, which is just unpleasant to engage with. I suggest simmering down.

I never said anything about Rosé having alternate evolved forms directly contradicting the series' depiction of Blue, my point is that as it stands, it currently could be confusing to fans and may lend credence to the idea that Rosé is Black's equivalent to the original Super Saiyan forms because no such transformations as Super Saiyan Blue 2 or 3 exist in the main Super storyline yet and probably won't ever come about, in all likelihood. No, it's not impossible, but may be construed as being at odds with the narrative currently portrayed in Dragon Ball Super. But whatever man, it was a tiny part of a much larger post that you over-scrutinised for no reason while ignoring the rest of my point completely, so kindly bog off.

I'm probably one of the select few regulars on this forum who's willing to acknowledge Heroes on a serious level and give it a fair shake for what it is, even though there are plenty of occasions where it becomes completely irreconcilable with Toriyama's Dragon Ball (which, as you should know after commenting on my big Toei thread, I have no inherent problem with) so there's no point in antagonising me over this. Again, simmer the hell down.