On the "Dragonball was supposed to end with Freeza"

Jermyn · Post by **Jermyn** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:55 pm

I've heard this rumor a lot on Internet forums and yet I've never seen any proof on Toriyama intended to stop there because in the manga there is no cut off point between the Freeza and Cell arcs unlike the Anime which was due to to the Garlic Jr. filler arc where in the manga, the Cell arc starts the same chapter the Freeza arc ended! So that tells me that Toriyama had no intention of ending it at that point in time. So where did this rumor come from?

LeprikanGT · Post by **LeprikanGT** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:59 pm

There was rumor or actual fact it was supposed to end with frieza; then they wanted more so Arika made up Gero and #20 but they were dull so he made #17 and #18 and they werent scary enough so he made Cell and it was supposed to end with cell again; then they wanted more so he stretched it out to kid buu.

SSj_Rambo · Post by **SSj_Rambo** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:01 pm

The time when Toryama wanted to end the series with the Freeza Saga was a while before the Freeza Saga actually ended, so by the time he got to the end of the Freeza Saga he already knew that he was going to continue.

It is almost certain that he intended to end the series there because of how much work he had already put into the series (he was tired) and that the Freeza Saga was a good place to end.

I don't know exactly why he continued, but I have heard that it was because his wife encouraged him to and that he wanted the money.

Post by **Herms** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:05 pm

As far as I know, Toriyama never said anything about specifically wanting to end it after Freeza. He's said that he planned on ending it soon after Z began. He says that's why he chose the name Z; also, at the end of the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai arc, Kame-sennin says that "It'll continue for just a little longer" (with hindsight Toriyama lacked, Viz changed this line to "It's not over, not by a longshot). While some see this as implying an ending after Freeza, I'd say it more likely implies an ending after the Saiyan arc. That fits the idea of it "ending soon" when Z began much more than after Freeza.

I think most people assume he intended to end it after Freeza because that arc feels very climate to them and the best place to end the series. Of course, I always felt the same way about the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai, but we know Toriyama never intended that as the ending...

LeprikanGT · Post by **LeprikanGT** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:06 pm

I still think he should have went along with GT; the animation would have been better. Theres one seen when everyone is sitting in the stands at a tournament and they are licking lollipops and ALL OF THEM have the same eyes and facial features and then their hair and face frames were the only difference.

Jermyn · Post by **Jermyn** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:07 pm

SSj_Rambo wrote:It is almost certain that he intended to end the series there because of how much work he had already put into the series (he was tired) and that the Freeza Saga was a good place to end.

But there is no proof of that, I don't think I've ever read any comments by Toriyama stating that he intended to end it there. The only thing I remember reading about where he planned to end it was him saying somewhere that every arc after the 22th World Tournament was supposed to be the ending.

SSj_Rambo · Post by **SSj_Rambo** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:13 pm

Jermyn wrote:
SSj_Rambo wrote:It is almost certain that he intended to end the series there because of how much work he had already put into the series (he was tired) and that the Freeza Saga was a good place to end.
But there is no proof of that, I don't think I've ever read any comments by Toriyama stating that he intended to end it there. The only thing I remember reading about where he planned to end it was him saying somewhere that every arc after the 22th World Tournament was supposed to be the ending.

What I was trying to say is that this is why he would have wanted to end to series if he had decided to.

Sorry, I worded that very poorly.

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:19 pm

LeprikanGT wrote:There was rumor or actual fact it was supposed to end with Freeza; then they wanted more so Toriyama made up Gero and #20 but they were dull so he made #17 and #18 and they werent scary enough so he made Cell and it was supposed to end with cell again; then they wanted more so he stretched it out to kid buu.

I wouldn't have minded if it ended with the defeat of Freeza and Son Goku and, ironically, repeating history (in terms of the Super Saiyan Legend). However, I still do really enjoy the Cell and Buu arcs. So, I'm glad they made it.

djkalteraphine · Post by **djkalteraphine** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:53 am

Kendamu wrote:
LeprikanGT wrote:There was rumor or actual fact it was supposed to end with Freeza; then they wanted more so Toriyama made up Gero and #20 but they were dull so he made #17 and #18 and they werent scary enough so he made Cell and it was supposed to end with cell again; then they wanted more so he stretched it out to kid buu.
I wouldn't have minded if it ended with the defeat of Freeza and Son Goku and, ironically, repeating history (in terms of the Super Saiyan Legend). However, I still do really enjoy the Cell and Buu arcs. So, I'm glad they made it.

Yeah. The Freeza saga was the most climatic ending, but I agree. I quite like bits of the Cell stuff, and love the Buu stuff, so I'm pleased.

Captain Awesome · Post by **Captain Awesome** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:01 am

The Freeza arc felt more like a natural evolution of the story for me.

Cell and Boo (especially Boo) felt a little tacked on.

SSJ2bardock · Post by **SSJ2bardock** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:05 am

I've heard this too and the explanation I was given was that he was tired of the series. Also, Toriyama was going to switch the main character role over to Goten, but this wasn't well received by fans so he didn't go through with it.

Captain Awesome · Post by **Captain Awesome** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:07 am

SSJ2bardock wrote: Toriyama was going to switch the main character role over to Goten, but this wasn't well received by fans so he didn't go through with it.

...You mean Gohan right?

I know Goten was added to be a carbon copy of Goku, but I never thought Toriyama was ever considering making Goten the lead.

SSJ2bardock · Post by **SSJ2bardock** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:10 am

No it was going to be Goten, hence the "carbon copy" look of Goku.

Also, I'm not completely positive on this because I can't remember where I heard it so I might be wrong.

Artificial Human #887 · Post by **Artificial Human #887** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:36 am

Meh. I always felt that Freeza was a great point to end it. There are things I love about both the Cell and Buu Sagas, but at the same time, there were things I didn't like. Mainly Vegeta's lack of purpose. Once Freeza had been killed, Vegeta's only purpose was "must get stronger and defeat Kakarrot roooarrrr!"

Everything about the Freeza saga screamed "closure" to me. I could easily see so many plot points being the logical way to cut ties. Vegeta's death (which was always an extremely powerful and hard to top moment for me), the unleashing of Gohan's power, and of course Goku's ascension. I think it was such a powerful story, and ending it right there would leave everyone to wonder what WOULD have happened next, rather than what DID happen. Maybe that's just me feeling my imagination is better than the story itself, but there were just too many points that felt forced and weird in the Cell and Buu arcs that I never once felt during anything prior to that point.

There are definitely times where I wish it DID end there.

sangofe · Post by **sangofe** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:13 am

LeprikanGT wrote:I still think he should have went along with GT; the animation would have been better. Theres one seen when everyone is sitting in the stands at a tournament and they are licking lollipops and ALL OF THEM have the same eyes and facial features and then their hair and face frames were the only difference.

Akira Toriyama is a mangaka, not an animator...

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:53 am

Mainly Vegeta's lack of purpose.

What? Vegetas story as the riving point of the seris after Nmek. eeing him go on long journey to actually being a good person. Even by the end of Cell his story felt unfinished. I think Namek was certainly the end of Goku's story. After that the series revolved more around the others. With Goku simply acting as a catalyst to start story arcs.

Artificial Human #887 · Post by **Artificial Human #887** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:22 am

Victator Supreme wrote:
Mainly Vegeta's lack of purpose.
What? Vegetas story as the riving point of the seris after Nmek. eeing him go on long journey to actually being a good person. Even by the end of Cell his story felt unfinished. I think Namek was certainly the end of Goku's story. After that the series revolved more around the others. With Goku simply acting as a catalyst to start story arcs.

I would hardly call the entire rest of the series Vegeta's journey to becoming good.

At the time of Vegeta's death in the Freeza Saga, his story could have easily ended. He found out the truth to his home planet's demise, he defeated Freeza's lackey's, and even had a good run against Freeza himself. He pretty much accepted that Goku was the "legendary Super Saiya-Jin," and essentially told Goku to defeat him for their race.

And then what happened? He was revived with the Dragon Balls and immediately turned back into an arrogant bastard. During the the majority of the Cell arc, he did things to benefit himself. It was clear he didn't care if Bulma and his own son died at the hands of the Artificial Humans. He allowed Cell to become perfect because he was arrogant and wanted the challenge. He essentially caused the death of Goku and the Cell games as a whole... yes, it was essential to the story, but it was hardly good of Vegeta to do. He just want to prove he was the superior Saiya-Jin. He didn't show an ounce of compassion until the death if Mirai Trunks.

I do agree that he was much more "good" in the Buu story, but I found it to be something to do simply because what else could be done with him? He had no Goku to compete against.... until the Budokai. And then what does he do? Allow Babidi's control so he could beat Goku! This was all that mattered to him at that point, and it wasn't until he Buu was unleashed that his compassion showed once more. It was essential from that point forward, but it was fairly sudden and with only assuming that those seven years between Cell and Buu toned him done, it was a lackluster transformation into a "good" guy. I like character development, and I felt none of that with Vegeta post-Freeza.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:32 am

I always thought that the Cell saga would be the best point to end the series, thanks to that one shot of Gohan with the image of a dead Goku behind him smiling.

Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece · Post by **Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:10 am

I want to contribute two things here:

1 - DragonBall was supposed to end at the end of every saga after the defeat of Piccolo Daimo.

2 - Vegeta is a measuring stick for Goku. He ascends to some super crazy new level, beats the shit out of a character, and then gets completely fucking destroyed, followed by Goku who completely dominates the guy that just raped Vegeta, showing how strong Goku is.

That is his only purpose. That, and fusing with Goku. He serves no other purpose and barely evolves as a character. Sure, he turns good, but he's still an arrogant self serving bastard throughout the entire manga/anime. Even in the Kanzenban ending, he wants to defeat Goku.

TheTET · Post by **TheTET** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:01 pm

It had a climatic scene/feeling. Ala the battle on the dying Namek. If to be honest,it shoud've ended at Cell.

Kanzenshuu

On the "Dragonball was supposed to end with Freeza"

On the "Dragonball was supposed to end with Freeza"

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