Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[shadd21]

Do you guys think Goku will surpass Beerus/Broly/Black Freezer in the small timespan between Super Hero and End of Z?

[Hugo Boss]

Do you guys think Goku will surpass Beerus/Broly/Black Freezer in the small timespan between Super Hero and End of Z?

According to Oracle Fish, Goku and Vegeta will be, in future developments, formidable opponents for Beerus. We have no clue when this will happen, but it would be nice if before Goku trains Pan.

[Miracles]

That's the thing, implication is not fact. Hence why Beerus told Whis nobody asked him what he "thinks." As we can see Toriyama keeps himself safe with language. Always having doubt when it comes to Beerus's power. Toriyama never definitively set Beerus in a tier of power therefore not a retcon.

You are going on circles here with the mental gymnastics. Beerus reaction tells us he knows what Whis claims is correct, which is what annoys him. He doesn’t like the idea of having other people challenging his position. It has nothing to do with him disagreeing with Whis. And we know that Toriyama presented the idea of how Beerus compares to Goku in his Battle of Gods interview. Beerus being a “moving goalpost” isn’t a meme for nothing.

Kaboom summarized this perfectly.

I read Kaboom, I'm not trying to make Toriyama's 6/10/15 numbers work because Toriyama only assumed them to be the case in BoG. This is backed up by Resurrection F when Toriyama doesn't even think two Super Saiyan Blue's could beat Beerus but only "seem"ingly go toe-to-toe with him. Then has Beerus tell Whis it is what he only "thinks" not a judgment of fact.

There is no mental gymnastics from me, I do not appeal to emotion fallacy either, where a characters reaction somehow makes them guilty. I simply take the words of the creator and the story at face value.

[Hugo Boss]

I simply take the words of the creator and the story at face value.

Seemingly not.

“Go toe-to-toe” in a fight means it is not clear who will win, because they have similar scores or for any other reason. This implies at least that Beerus wouldn’t have a clear edge over SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta teamwork. This comes in contrast with Whis claiming that if Goku and Vegeta team up they would be able to beat Golden Freeza without trouble. This is also the central theme of the Tournament of Power arc, which expanded on this teamwork aspect that Whis was teaching them.

In resume, this is essentially what the author thinks the moment he wrote the films (without overly pedantic analysis of what seemingly means in a context dissociated from this debate): according to what Whis knows, Goku and Vegeta need each other to have a shot against Beerus (who also has that fancy technique which was later named ultra instinct, though not perfect).

[Skar]

I read Kaboom, I'm not trying to make Toriyama's 6/10/15 numbers work because Toriyama only assumed them to be the case in BoG. This is backed up by Resurrection F when Toriyama doesn't even think two Super Saiyan Blue's could beat Beerus but only "seem"ingly go toe-to-toe with him. Then has Beerus tell Whis it is what he only "thinks" not a judgment of fact.

There is no mental gymnastics from me, I do not appeal to emotion fallacy either, where a characters reaction somehow makes them guilty. I simply take the words of the creator and the story at face value.

In BoG, Whis said Beerus used 70% of his power against Goku which fits with Toriyama's scale. I don't think we were meant to analyze the wording since those lines from BoG and RoF weren't included in DBS. In both continuities, we're made aware Whis is stronger than Beerus and the one who trains him so we would assume Whis knows how strong he is. The only difference is that SSJG is now an unknown percentage of Beerus' power since Whis doesn't say it.

[Mr Baggins]

It's impossible to force the Z-branded movies into Super. There are too many differences between them; not just the retconned 6-10-15 scale, but also the logistics of Super Saiyan Blue, details of the Super Saiyan God legend, the BoG arc taking place on a cruise ship, etc. etc. etc. The list is exhaustive.

The story beats of BoG and Res 'F' are roughly the same as their adaptations so you can still enjoy them more or less sequentially with the rest of the series, but in a strict continuity sense, they're incompatible.

[fleahop]

I normally do not get into these discussions, but my fanfic has had me watching this thread.

I do not see this brought up often, but SSG Goku had just absorbed energy from many of the strongest people on Earth in Battle of Gods. I personally believe that energy was transferred into God Ki just like if it was his base.

Also, the RoF statement from Whis may have been referring to their power but not their skill/technique. Honestly it doesn't make a ton of sense either way does it?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Do you guys think Goku will surpass Beerus/Broly/Black Freezer in the small timespan between Super Hero and End of Z?

I think they will. Toriyama said years ago he had no interest in going beyond EoZ since everyone was going to be too old, and Super Hero's box office (which wasn't a failure, but was still behind Broly internationally and in total) might have made them put a foot down when it comes to stories without Goku and Vegeta.

Basically, I think the series will end before Goku meets Oob, so he will most likely surpass Beerus and co. in the mean time to tie all the loose ends.

[Miracles]

I simply take the words of the creator and the story at face value.

Seemingly not.

“Go toe-to-toe” in a fight means it is not clear who will win, because they have similar scores or for any other reason. This implies at least that Beerus wouldn’t have a clear edge over SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta teamwork. This comes in contrast with Whis claiming that if Goku and Vegeta team up they would be able to beat Golden Freeza without trouble. This is also the central theme of the Tournament of Power arc, which expanded on this teamwork aspect that Whis was teaching them.

In resume, this is essentially what the author thinks the moment he wrote the films (without overly pedantic analysis of what seemingly means in a context dissociated from this debate): according to what Whis knows, Goku and Vegeta need each other to have a shot against Beerus (who also has that fancy technique which was later named ultra instinct, though not perfect).

Whis said it "seems [Not a statement of fact]" like they could even go "toe-to-toe [compete]." He was skeptical even if they could compete with Beerus let alone beat him. This is why the text says it's only what Whis "thinks [Assume not based on truth]." No need to add to it or take away from it because I'm taking it at face value. Not looking at facial expressions.

I read Kaboom, I'm not trying to make Toriyama's 6/10/15 numbers work because Toriyama only assumed them to be the case in BoG. This is backed up by Resurrection F when Toriyama doesn't even think two Super Saiyan Blue's could beat Beerus but only "seem"ingly go toe-to-toe with him. Then has Beerus tell Whis it is what he only "thinks" not a judgment of fact.

There is no mental gymnastics from me, I do not appeal to emotion fallacy either, where a characters reaction somehow makes them guilty. I simply take the words of the creator and the story at face value.

In BoG, Whis said Beerus used 70% of his power against Goku which fits with Toriyama's scale. I don't think we were meant to analyze the wording since those lines from BoG and RoF weren't included in DBS. In both continuities, we're made aware Whis is stronger than Beerus and the one who trains him so we would assume Whis knows how strong he is. The only difference is that SSJG is now an unknown percentage of Beerus' power since Whis doesn't say it.

No one is analyzing Whis's factual statement about Beerus using "nearly 70%" of his power against SSJG Goku back in BoG. However, As I said in one of my initial posts that doesn't change the fact in RoF that Whis states Beerus hasn't "quite" mastered Ultra Instinct "yet." Meaning Beerus is training and can use Ultra Instinct. Was this factored into Whis's statement in BoG about Beerus's power? The fandom keeps shouting "retcon" carelessly without actual proof because it's not considering the totality of the story.

[Koitsukai]

Black Freeza will need to be surpassed, he holds all the cards now, it'd be odd if DB ends with the universe at Freeza's mercy because the guys have failed to take him down. They already failed vs Gas. And Goku just takes off with Uub like everything is alright.

Broly, too soon to tell, we better wait and see how Toyo deals with having Broly already surpassed in his story, while Toriyama says he is still above them. Complete Mastery of UI/UE should have Broly behind them at the end of the day.

I have a feeling Beerus won't lose to Goku, it'd be so Toriyama to have all this hype around their final encounter/comparison, only to have Beerus still above. Although, the moving goalpoast stopping its trademark movement would also be quite surprising.

There's also the issue with Freeza and U7's balance being shifted, and that was suppossed to be a bad thing. I can only think of that being Beerus being surpassed by a ningen, that kinda clashes with the concept of Beerus having an arch-rival in Goku and Vegeta. In that case, beating Freeza would necessarily mean surpassing Beerus, and the whole rivalry thing would become secondary...

[Almighty Majin]

And Goku just takes off with Uub like everything is alright.

Alternatively, the context could be shifted so that it could be that Uub might be the only one with the potential to surpass Freeza. Although this would be strange considering Gohan and Broly are around, but it's possible even they might not be enough.

Broly, too soon to tell, we better wait and see how Toyo deals with having Broly already surpassed in his story, while Toriyama says he is still above them. Complete Mastery of UI/UE should have Broly behind them at the end of the day.

I think Broly being stronger at this point in the story can be justified with Saiyan recovery boost + training on Beerus' planet which would allow him to surpass the likes of Moro and Gas. When Goku states that Moro is the strongest, this is in comparison to Broly from the events of the movie. He likely got a boost after recovering from his fight against Gogeta and Goku never fought that version of Broly so it's likely post-Zenkai Broly > Moro and then Broly (training on Beerus' planet) > Gas.

I have a feeling Beerus won't lose to Goku, it'd be so Toriyama to have all this hype around their final encounter/comparison, only to have Beerus still above. Although, the moving goalpoast stopping its trademark movement would also be quite surprising.

I think Goku vs Beerus with Goku winning will be the conclusion of the series. This will be the signal from Toriyama that the series is finally over. A crazier route though would be with the direction that UI is going, maybe the final opponent for Goku could be Whis? The student finally surpasses the master. I don't see it being likely, but it would be insane to see.

[picc]

How far do you guys think U7 would have gotten in the ToP if it was everyone circa the end of the buu saga?

Let's say U11 and U6 are exempted along with the other universes with highest mortal level.

[Almighty Majin]

How far do you guys think U7 would have gotten in the ToP if it was everyone circa the end of the buu saga?

Let's say U11 and U6 are exempted along with the other universes with highest mortal level.

They would get obliterated by U3 once Aniraza comes into the picture. Even Maji Kayo from U3 gave Dyspo a hard time so he'd probably be enough to beat Buu saga U7 as well. Otherwise, the Kamikaze Fireballs from U2 could pull off that black hole thingy and also take down anyone from U7. Obuni from U10 required Ultimate Gohan to beat so he might also be an issue.

[Skar]

No one is analyzing Whis's factual statement about Beerus using "nearly 70%" of his power against SSJG Goku back in BoG. However, As I said in one of my initial posts that doesn't change the fact in RoF that Whis states Beerus hasn't "quite" mastered Ultra Instinct "yet." Meaning Beerus is training and can use Ultra Instinct. Was this factored into Whis's statement in BoG about Beerus's power? The fandom keeps shouting "retcon" carelessly without actual proof because it's not considering the totality of the story.

If those lines were completely removed from DBS, it seems like an intentional retcon. We would only have to consider an alternate meaning if they were included and contradicted later. That isn't necessary when they no longer apply to this continuity.

[Hugo Boss]

Also, the RoF statement from Whis may have been referring to their power but not their skill/technique. Honestly it doesn't make a ton of sense either way does it?

Whis doesn’t specifically refer to their power, but rather compare them in a competition sense, so that would consider everything they can do at the moment, including Beerus’ imperfect ultra instinct. This is incompatible with Goku and Vegeta current strongest forms, that far surpass a teamwork of two Super Saiyan Blue, being still noticeably behind Beerus, even with teamwork.

[Miracles]

No one is analyzing Whis's factual statement about Beerus using "nearly 70%" of his power against SSJG Goku back in BoG. However, As I said in one of my initial posts that doesn't change the fact in RoF that Whis states Beerus hasn't "quite" mastered Ultra Instinct "yet." Meaning Beerus is training and can use Ultra Instinct. Was this factored into Whis's statement in BoG about Beerus's power? The fandom keeps shouting "retcon" carelessly without actual proof because it's not considering the totality of the story.

If those lines were completely removed from DBS, it seems like an intentional retcon. We would only have to consider an alternate meaning if they were included and contradicted later. That isn't necessary when they no longer apply to this continuity.

That's the thing there are no contradictions. So why is the fandom claiming retcon when no official statement has been made? Why act as if the Super series is seperate from the BoG and RoF movies when official sources say different. Beerus just lied in the anime about using full power but a percentage used was just never given. So why can't "nearly 70%" still be the case when it doesn't contradict anything? Also the statement about two Blue's possibly being able to go toe to toe according to what Whis thinks not being in RoF isn't a contradiction either since it's not a statement of fact.

"Dragon Ball Super is a gem of an original story, from an original draft provided by manga author Akira Toriyama-sensei! This series is a super tale that depicts what happens “afterwards” to Goku and the gang following the titanic battle with Majin Boo, and links up with the movies Battle of Gods and Revival of “F”!!

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/2015/06/17/e ... 15-v-jump/

[picc]

How far do you guys think U7 would have gotten in the ToP if it was everyone circa the end of the buu saga?

Let's say U11 and U6 are exempted along with the other universes with highest mortal level.

They would get obliterated by U3 once Aniraza comes into the picture. Even Maji Kayo from U3 gave Dyspo a hard time so he'd probably be enough to beat Buu saga U7 as well. Otherwise, the Kamikaze Fireballs from U2 could pull off that black hole thingy and also take down anyone from U7. Obuni from U10 required Ultimate Gohan to beat so he might also be an issue.

Lets say fusion is still allowed and the supreme kai has potara on hand. And with U3 posing the biggest threat its possible U7 targets them before they're able to utilize Aniraza.

[Skar]

That's the thing there are no contradictions. So why is the fandom claiming retcon when no official statement has been made?

I don't think retcons usually get an official statement. Fans assume it might be a retcon when new information changes our original view or in this case those statements were completely removed. I can't really think of a different reason. It can't just be a coincidence that those statements that fit together would also be removed together. DBS had other changes to BoG like Goku not absorbing SSJG. That was only in the manga at first but I think it applied to the anime later since Goku used SSJG again. It would make sense to remove them so it would take longer for Goku to reach Beerus' power.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So why can't "nearly 70%" still be the case when it doesn't contradict anything?

Goku using Kaio-Ken x10? Hell even RoF was already ignoring that like since SSJB is supposed to be 50x SSJG. Goku was giving Beerus a good fight, but Golden Freeza was peeing himself when he saw Beerus on Earth.

If the line has been omitted on an extended retelling of the story, I think it's very on the nose the writers have changed their minds about it.

How far do you guys think U7 would have gotten in the ToP if it was everyone circa the end of the buu saga?

Let's say U11 and U6 are exempted along with the other universes with highest mortal level.

Hard to say how far exactly since omitting U6 and U11 changes the events, but this is how I think they would compare against each universe:

U2: Would be a good fight, specially in the anime verse with Ribrianne fighting Goku and getting power ups, but I the high tiers of U7 can handle Giant Ribrianne. Manga Ribrianne lost to 18 and Kuririn, and that 18 has no feats nor is shown to be training.

U3: U7 is dead. Maji Kayo had Jiren getting out of his ass, Katopesla put up a good fight vs SSJ Vegeta, those robots had Gohan on the ropes... They'd have to bring in Vegetto, and even he may not be enough. And that's not even bringing up Anilaza. Manga U3 is nothing, but I think Manga Anilaza would beat Vegetto. Kale beating him was a big deal.

U4: These guys are all tricks no power, so I think the gang can get through them with SSJ1 at most.

U9: These guys mean business. These guys were SSJ2 to SSJ3 level individually, and their teamwork was tight. No way U7 is surviving this one.

U10: Obuni was Gohan level in the anime, but in the manga he's a nobody. This universe still sucks.


Overall, I think U7 isn't winning. Probably U3 with U9 as a runner up.

[Miracles]

That's the thing there are no contradictions. So why is the fandom claiming retcon when no official statement has been made?

I don't think retcons usually get an official statement. Fans assume it might be a retcon when new information changes our original view or in this case those statements were completely removed. I can't really think of a different reason. It can't just be a coincidence that those statements that fit together would also be removed together. DBS had other changes to BoG like Goku not absorbing SSJG. That was only in the manga at first but I think it applied to the anime later since Goku used SSJG again. It would make sense to remove them so it would take longer for Goku to reach Beerus' power.

Goku did absorb SSJG in the movie [turned back red to destroy beerus's ball] also done in the anime and manga since he used it again in the TOP and Broly movie. I remember a lot of fans wrongly assumed Red was gone because of what Toriyama said in the interview. Yet he didn't ever say it was gone.

This also proves how the fans wrongly assume a "retcon" when there was never anything contradicting what was previously established. Fans just took it upon themselves to become the writers and try to "fix" everything.

So why can't "nearly 70%" still be the case when it doesn't contradict anything?

Goku using Kaio-Ken x10? Hell even RoF was already ignoring that like since SSJB is supposed to be 50x SSJG. Goku was giving Beerus a good fight, but Golden Freeza was peeing himself when he saw Beerus on Earth.

If the line has been omitted on an extended retelling of the story, I think it's very on the nose the writers have changed their minds about it.

The anime writers did not ignore it when they themselves have Beerus lying about using 100% of his power. They just did not give a percentage that was used. Therefore it does not contradict the near 70% line in the movie. In RoF Beerus was said to be in an attempt to master Ultra Instinct, did Toriyama factor that into the near 70% line? Obviously not hence why Whis goes on to say in RoF that it may be possible for two blues to compete, not beat but compete against Beerus. This can be applied with Goku stacking KK on Blue because Beerus is simply an unknown in power. It all fits.