Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Cipher]

How does Piccolos performance against Gamma 2 compare. His relative level of fear and stuff? Strength statements from Gamma about Piccolo etc, Been a while since I saw the movie.

Even with Piccolo getting some blows in, Gamma 2 reports it was absolutely no sweat and even "disappointing" upon returning to base. He was playing around and still easily outclassed Piccolo.

The manga allows Piccolo a few more attacks, but the dialogue from both Gamma 2 and Piccolo keeps it clear they're not in the same league.

[Miracles]

^Exactly. Hence why Piccolo only assumes the Gamma's to be on par with Goku/Vegeta in both movie ["seems"] and comic ["I'd say"].
Piccolo never actually says they are on Goku and Vegeta's level.

[Hugo Boss]

It doesn't take a genius to understand that Piccolo is logically referring to Blue. To his knowledge, it's the strongest form wherein Goku and Vegeta are relative to each other. There's nothing to analyze beyond that. How specifically close the Gammas are to a full-blown Moro arc tier Blue is an open question, though clearly not one that the story is committed to answering because it's not exactly the point.

Even if you were to highball the Gammas to being that strong, it's less of an issue when you realize that Gohan regularly gets vast boosts in power from enraged awakenings all the time; it's kind of his whole thing. So when he retriggers Ultimate in Super Hero, that alone could've elevated his power to that of the upgraded Blue form used against Moro.

It doesn't take much for Gohan to reach insane jumps in a flash. Sometimes he accomplishes that via a little training, sometimes he gets it from magical rituals, and sometimes, more often than not, he just does it by getting really fucking mad.

Fair enough, all valid points. It’s only that this attempt of ranking them with Goku and Vegeta wasn’t properly conveyed for me. Considering Toyotaro even drew 17, 18 and Boo when he referenced them, when he mentioned Goku and Vegeta, instead of reusing the same panel of the Gammas that he used before in the very same chapter, he could have drawn Goku and Vegeta in their Blue forms. I think that would be neat. This is not to say he should have done it exactly like I said, but I think if he wanted to setup the Gammas as worthwhile opponents for Goku and Vegeta (presumably from the end of Moro arc), I think he could have given a hint or something. Maybe this will require a complete reread of this arc when finished, so until then I will consider the points you brought up.

Another detail that bothers me is generally classifying the Gammas as “Blue tier”, when 17 already belongs to that rank, and it doesn’t seem right to say 17 is up there with Goku and Vegeta anymore. At least in the ToP you could excuse that Goku and Vegeta didn’t master their new forms and auraless Blue was their default true power. But that excuse stops making sense in their final battle against Moro, as Goku can use Ultra Instinct Sign and Vegeta Blue Evolved as new defaults. For the sake of comparison, those two forms were also relative to each other, with the only key difference being Forced Spirit Fission. So, if the intent is implying the Gammas and 17 are in the same vicinity, it’s disconnected from the narrative of presenting the strongest androids ever.

Perhaps, if I had to make a guess, the best idea would be if the Gammas were up there with Blue Evolved, which would be the best reference Piccolo would have from Vegeta in the manga. And being Gohan who he is, his little training with heavy clothes would somehow make his ultimate form reach that level with the right motivation.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Ultimately, this is the issue with the manga adapting the SH movie straight-up.

It tried to break the previous status quo somewhat prior to the movie's release, but ended up being disconnected from the more simplified way the movie took things.

Best not factor in manga-centric shakeups like UI Sign and SSBE when looking at something shared between the mediums. Just look at it like the movie did, with normal SSB (or Complete SSB if you wanna be more manga-specific, but it's still just SSB in the grand scheme of things) as the main level Goku and Vegeta normally operate at, and Broly and Jiren being the primary beings on the same level as Gods of Destruction.

[Mr Baggins]

Another detail that bothers me is generally classifying the Gammas as “Blue tier”, when 17 already belongs to that rank, and it doesn’t seem right to say 17 is up there with Goku and Vegeta anymore.

Goku's line about 17's strength after the ToP is also pretty vague, to be fair, with the implication being that 17 wasn't too far off from Goku and Vegeta rather than necessarily being as strong as them. So it's not like the manga implies 17 to be in league with the Gammas, even if they both likely belong to a much wider "Blue tier" range used in everyday fan terminology. Hell, Super's only official use of a "tier/level" encompasses an even wider range than that. It doesn't have to be a narrow category, and it's just semantics anyway.

Blue Evolved could also work, although it's debatable that it's relative to Ultra Instinct Sign in the same way. I think regular (current) Blue is a safer bet if we're looking at context and authorial intent.

[Yuji]

There's also a sizeable gap between Moro arc SSBs and ToP arc SSBs. We've seen Gohan and 17 get dominated by Saganbo while Goku post-training holds his own pretty well. There's plenty of leeway here.

If I'm not mistaken, Piccolo can somehow sense SSB Goku has gotten stronger but when he activates Sign, he can't sense his strength any longer. Perhaps UI has a different kind of Ki from Blue, but this should at least give us an indication that Piccolo doesn't really know how strong the UI forms are.

[Miracles]

Piccolo was stated to be clearly on par with Goku and Co. This same Piccolo one shotted a Gamma with Orange power. The Gamma's are not on par [equal] with Goku and Co since Piccolo only said they "seem" like it in the movie.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Piccolo was stated to be clearly on par with Goku and Co. This same Piccolo one shotted a Gamma with Orange power. The Gamma's are not on par [equal] with Goku and Co since Piccolo only said they "seem" like it in the movie.

Which is fitting with the overall compounding info, like how they're nearly a match for Ultimate Gohan who was approaching SSB back during the ToP, the SH movie being created as a sequel to the Broly movie where SSB was the main level of full power that Goku and Vegeta used, and this level being conveniently slightly above Android 17 to mark them as the strongest Androids yet.

The Gammas are equal to the "normal" level of SSB that Goku and Vegeta use, but not their ascended forms, which Orange Piccolo is indeed seeming to be equal to.

[Almighty Majin]

Decided to make a condensed Toriyama/movie continuity scale.

Spoiler:

Gohan Beast
SSJB Gogeta | SSJB Vegetto
SSJ Full Power Broly
Cell Max
UI Goku | Orange Piccolo
Jiren | SSJ Broly
True Golden Freeza
SSJB Goku & Vegeta working together | Ultimate Gohan & Piccolo working together | Gamma 1 & 2 working together
Golden Freeza | Merged Zamasu
SSJB Goku | SSJB Vegeta | SSJR Goku Black | Ultimate Gohan | SSJ Kefla | Toppo | Wrathful Broly | Gamma 1 | Gamma 2
Hit | SSJ2 Future Trunks | Android 17 | Dyspo | Ultimate Piccolo
SSJG Goku | SSJG Vegeta

[Miracles]

Piccolo was stated to be clearly on par with Goku and Co. This same Piccolo one shotted a Gamma with Orange power. The Gamma's are not on par [equal] with Goku and Co since Piccolo only said they "seem" like it in the movie.

Which is fitting with the overall compounding info, like how they're nearly a match for Ultimate Gohan who was approaching SSB back during the ToP, the SH movie being created as a sequel to the Broly movie where SSB was the main level of full power that Goku and Vegeta used, and this level being conveniently slightly above Android 17 to mark them as the strongest Androids yet.

The Gammas are equal to the "normal" level of SSB that Goku and Vegeta use, but not their ascended forms, which Orange Piccolo is indeed seeming to be equal to.

Yep. Or lets say Toriyama doesn't use "full power Blue" from the comic, I'd say the Gamma's are Super Saiyan Red level.

[Hugo Boss]

Hell, Super's only official use of a "tier/level" encompasses an even wider range than that. It doesn't have to be a narrow category, and it's just semantics anyway.

Can you elaborate on this? Just for curiosity.

[picc]

The most frustrating thing about this series is that we never seem to get answers, just more questions.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Ultimately, this is the issue with the manga adapting the SH movie straight-up.

It tried to break the previous status quo somewhat prior to the movie's release, but ended up being disconnected from the more simplified way the movie took things.

Best not factor in manga-centric shakeups like UI Sign and SSBE when looking at something shared between the mediums. Just look at it like the movie did, with normal SSB (or Complete SSB if you wanna be more manga-specific, but it's still just SSB in the grand scheme of things) as the main level Goku and Vegeta normally operate at, and Broly and Jiren being the primary beings on the same level as Gods of Destruction.

I think it will get even worse next chapter when Goku talks about training to reach Jiren, Broly and the GoDs, because with UI he should already on that league at the very least.

Ultra Ego as a GoD technique seems to be the way out, but it just flat out spells they're an unreachable level. Not a very good answer.

There's also a sizeable gap between Moro arc SSBs and ToP arc SSBs. We've seen Gohan and 17 get dominated by Saganbo while Goku post-training holds his own pretty well. There's plenty of leeway here.

If I'm not mistaken, Piccolo can somehow sense SSB Goku has gotten stronger but when he activates Sign, he can't sense his strength any longer. Perhaps UI has a different kind of Ki from Blue, but this should at least give us an indication that Piccolo doesn't really know how strong the UI forms are.

I think we can take the PSSJB Tier and divide into 2 extremes: Current Goku/Vegeta in the higher side, and ToP 17 and Gohan (Who are just a hair behind ToP Goku/Vegeta) in the other. Moro Saga Gohan falls more in the middle. Here, since we're talking about fights and gaps I think it's easier to say with numbers:

SSJB Goku/Vegeta (Moro): 100
Super Saganbo: 75
Ultimate Gohan (Moro): 56.25
SSJB Goku/Vegeta (ToP): 50
Ultimate Gohan (ToP): 45
Android 17: 40 (Probably stronger in Moro Saga, but irrelevant)

It's easy to see Goku is stronger because he's beating up someone who ran over Gohan and 17 at once. ToP Goku couldn't do that back then, specially after Gohan and 17 train for 2 months. Piccolo flat out says he can't use Goku's Ki when he's zapping around, but I don't know if Goku was using Sign or SSJB there.

There's a bit of a debate whether Vegeta surpassed Goku that makes everything more confusing, but their fight in Super Hero makes me think they never stopped being equals. I think Piccolo lumping them together means they're still equals.

Anyway, being as strong as Gohan places the Gammas in Goku and Vegeta's league, in a broad sense.

Decided to make a condensed Toriyama/movie continuity scale.

Spoiler:

Gohan Beast
SSJB Gogeta | SSJB Vegetto
SSJ Full Power Broly
Cell Max
UI Goku | Orange Piccolo
Jiren | SSJ Broly
True Golden Freeza
SSJB Goku & Vegeta working together | Ultimate Gohan & Piccolo working together | Gamma 1 & 2 working together
Golden Freeza | Merged Zamasu
SSJB Goku | SSJB Vegeta | SSJR Goku Black | Ultimate Gohan | SSJ Kefla | Toppo | Wrathful Broly | Gamma 1 | Gamma 2
Hit | SSJ2 Future Trunks | Android 17 | Dyspo | Ultimate Piccolo
SSJG Goku | SSJG Vegeta

I just made one a few pages ago, with numbers.
viewtopic.php?p=1762800#p1762800

I'm pretty sure Golden Freeza is meant to be on pair with Goku and Vegeta though. Half of the U7 team is supposed to rival each other.

Interesting to see Future Trunks so strong. From what we know, his relevance to the plot is just to get Goku and Vegeta to fight Black, and he's on pair with SSJ2 Goku in their sparring. Like in the Cell Saga, he doesn't have to do anything after that. Maybe he fights Future Zamasu, maybe he doesn't fight at all like in the manga. But if he has to be SSJB level, I think SSJ Rage can be canon. Gohan Beast comes from the same principles.

Can you elaborate on this? Just for curiosity.

I think he's talking about how SSJG was considered to be on the level of the gods in the ToP.

The most frustrating thing about this series is that we never seem to get answers, just more questions.

That's only natural for an ongoing series. I can only imagine what this fandom would be like if internet existed as it does now back in 1988.

[QuakingStar]

Last time Piccolo saw Goku and Vegeta was vs Moro, he saw Blue Evolved Vegeta and SSBlue Goku as well as UI Sign and UI Goku in action. So at bare minimum the Gammas are SSB Goku and Vegeta level from the Moro Arc which took place on Earth just as Broly conflict took place on Earth. So for the Gammas just say they are SSB level. For Orange Piccolo he is on Par with Goku and co. meaning the top of the group because he already zero diffed SSB level Gammas. So Orange Piccolo would be anywhere from Blue Evolved to UI level in power alone but unlike the Saiyans he does not get stronger from battle and unlike UI he does not have auto-dodge or auto-attack and unlike with UE he does not have direct damage to power conversion. So Orange Piccolo can be up to UI Goku from Moro arc in power, whether we like it or not but that doesn't mean he would beat UI Goku from Moro Arc, he would still lose because he has no hax ability whatsoever.

[Almighty Majin]

I'm pretty sure Golden Freeza is meant to be on pair with Goku and Vegeta though. Half of the U7 team is supposed to rival each other.

In this version of the condensed Toriyama scale, I am assuming that Toriyama is considering that Goku and Vegeta's power is constant from RoF to Broly. Going by this assumption, Golden Freeza is superior to Blue Goku and Vegeta individually until the stamina issues kick in. It's stated that if they worked together, they would be able to take down Golden Freeza no issue (this would also be the case with Merged Zamasu as well which is why I placed him equal to Golden Freeza and his unstable fusion issue parallels Freeza's stamina issue as well). Goku does state that if Freeza figured out the stamina issue that even Goku and Vegeta working together would stand no chance. Seeing as in Broly where Freeza managed to take a beating from SSJ Broly for a full hour and was still pretty intact, it does not sound too far-fetched to place True Golden Freeza where he is. The only problem is the promotional material stating that Goku and Freeza are tied for number 1 in the ToP (but even this statement has problems, would that imply that in the anime True Golden Freeza = SSJB Kaioken Goku based on that statement?), but otherwise I think the placement for Freeza makes sense. There's also Vegeta still training for Freeza in the beginning of the Broly movie, it's clear that Freeza is still a significant threat (without considering Black Freeza).

Interesting to see Future Trunks so strong. From what we know, his relevance to the plot is just to get Goku and Vegeta to fight Black, and he's on pair with SSJ2 Goku in their sparring. Like in the Cell Saga, he doesn't have to do anything after that. Maybe he fights Future Zamasu, maybe he doesn't fight at all like in the manga. But if he has to be SSJB level, I think SSJ Rage can be canon. Gohan Beast comes from the same principles.

Yeah Future Trunks is pretty weird. He is clearly shown to be on par with SSJ2 Goku in the beginning of the arc, but then for some reason in the later half gets depicted as much stronger. Also both mediums seem to give him a stronger SSJ2 form (Rage in the anime, enhanced SSJ2 in the manga) that allows him to be competitive, but not quite at Goku and Vegeta's level so it is rather bizarre.

[Miracles]

The most frustrating thing about this series is that we never seem to get answers, just more questions.

Not if you take the story at face value. For example...

Toriyama just said "Gohan is actually stronger than anyone or so it is said."
That's Toriyama himself saying so and himself referring to the story ["or"] to be the case for Gohan.

Toriyama said a completed Cell Max would roast Broly.
Toriyama said Piccolo is "on par" with Goku and Co now.

Beerus once again is said to be the most fearsome [strongest] in the universe in Super Hero.
Whis is stronger than Beerus, along with the Grand Priest and Zenoh.

In the manga...

Freeza left the Granolah arc as the strongest warrior in the universe.
Gas, Granolah, Goku and Vegeta were at one point tops in the universe [stated by manga/Toyotaro].

Goku said he hasn't come across anyone as tough as him and that's the reason he wanted to fight him again to get even stronger since he was no match at the time.

etc

There are answers it's usually the fans who grapple with the text.

[Yuji]

What's the strongest character a team of MUI Roshi, Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Yamcha could defeat together?

[TobyS]

What's the strongest character a team of MUI Roshi, Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Yamcha could defeat together?

Well Roshi isn't much use, but as Kuririn is the strongest of the 3 and stronger than chaozu, probably the guy they fought in the Moro arc if they bust out some kikohos and kienzans, 3rd form freeza, Some TOP fodder, that's about it.

[Yuji]

What's the strongest character a team of MUI Roshi, Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Yamcha could defeat together?

Well Roshi isn't much use, but as Kuririn is the strongest of the 3 and stronger than chaozu, probably the guy they fought in the Moro arc if they bust out some kikohos and kienzans, 3rd form freeza, Some TOP fodder, that's about it.

With MUI? How weak do you think they all are in base then?

[Hugo Boss]

This is too speculative to provide a worthwhile discussion in my opinion, but they would probably have an easier time fighting Moro’s goons? Maybe Goku and Vegeta from the end of Moro Arc as long as they don’t use Super Saiyan.