Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kazuya Mishima]

Who's the strongest movie villain, Hirudegarn, Janemba or Broly? Rule of escalation dictates Hirudegarn should be the strongest, yet Janemba forced Goku and Vegeta to fuse, and Koyama keeps claiming Broly is the strongest.

"According to the Toei website for the Dragon Ball movies, Super Janemba is stronger than the Phantom Majin Hirudegarn, since Hirudegarn was capable of trading blows evenly with Super Saiyan 3 Goku while Super Janemba could beat back Super Saiyan 3 Goku. It notes that due to this Janemba was the strongest of the original thirteen movie villains, with Hirudegarn being the second strongest.

It was stated by Takao Koyama, that when making Dragon Ball movies was that the next movie villain that Goku fought would always have to be at least stronger than the previous villain Goku fought. Thus, he implied that Janemba was stronger than Broly but weaker than Hirudegarn. However, this was conflicted with the DVD official website for Toei noted above."

So based on these two statements, Janemba is #1 and Hirudegarn is stronger than Broly.

Broly would be third as he was the latest movie villain that was neither Janemba or Hirudegarn. Bojack would be fourth and so on.

[Scientist Fu]

Who's the strongest movie villain, Hirudegarn, Janemba or Broly? Rule of escalation dictates Hirudegarn should be the strongest, yet Janemba forced Goku and Vegeta to fuse, and Koyama keeps claiming Broly is the strongest.

Takao Koyama claimed himself that he had to make the next villain stronger than the previous one, but, if this is true for all the villains then that'd make Bio Broly stronger than M10 Broly which is hard to believe when he was clearly struggling against Goten and Trunks, which wasn't the case in M10 .. and he also did say that Broly was the strongest when they asked him why Broly appeared 3 times https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... ao-koyama/ (this was before Beerus' release of course)
Toei, on the other hand, affirmed officially that Janemba was stronger than Hirudegarn... so, it's up to you to decide which one you wanna take.

It could go this way for Toei: Janemba>>Hirudegarn>>Broly and this way for Takao Koyama: Broly>>Hirudegarn>>Janemba or Broly>>Janemba>>Hirudegarn I think Takao Koyama designed Broly to be the strongest but since he was not the last villain then he had to come up with other villains, obviously.

But, if we use feats, then we shouldn't forget that Broly destroyed a whole galaxy in his restrained form, it is not to be taken lightly when debating on who is stronger between these 3 villains.

Most people will go with Janemba>>Hirudegarn>>Broly.

[Miracles]

Koyama has said the enemies constantly escalate more than once. So I will go with the person who handled the concepts of the story and dealt with Toriyama on them.

TOEI's official statement wouldn't override what Koyama says, even tho he works for them I believe. However if Koyama wrote that Janemba is stronger, then so be it.

[FPSSJ4_Goku]

Who's the strongest movie villain, Hirudegarn, Janemba or Broly? Rule of escalation dictates Hirudegarn should be the strongest, yet Janemba forced Goku and Vegeta to fuse, and Koyama keeps claiming Broly is the strongest.

Well, the YouTuber Chuck has two videos that give arguments for Broly being one of, maybe THE strongest movie villain: those being What If Majin Boo and Broly Fought? and Ranking Dragon Ball Z Villains From Weakest To Strongest.

For the Boo vs Broly video, his consensus was this:

Manga Scaling: Broly stomps every version of Majin Boo
Anime-Only Feats: Boohan and Pure Boo have good chances of winning, but it can be argued to be Broly's victory if you scale him off of Metal Cooler having beyond infinite speed (source: the scene in movie 6 where Goku was using Teleportation, and Cooler and Goku were fighting in between Teleportation, which is supposed to be instant)
Statements Only: Broly stomps every version of Majin Boo

TL;DR Broly wins overall

[QuakingStar]

Gohan in M10 had never stopped training, he even says he had powered up considerably since he saw Broly last and when he saw Broly last it was withint the 10 days before the Cell Games, meaning after Goku already saw his SS2 power inside the HTC yet Goku still tells him to leave. This means Broly in M8 was still stronger than SS2 Kid Gohan and SPCell, and M10 LSS Broly was stronger than SS2 Gohan who never stopped training. Whereas in the Daizenshuu 6 it claimed that SS Broly was stronger than SS Goku in M10, while base Gohan was able to contend with SS Broly for a time before going to SS2 whereas Broly realizes he is outmatched and goes straight to LSS in order to gain the advantage back and all Gohan can do is knee him in the face once.

[Koitsukai]

There's no Cell Games in the continuity of the first Broly movie. There are several hints at Cell no longer being a threat (or any type of threat out there for that matter) by the time the movie starts.

Also, ancillary material written by NOT-Toei-or-Toriyama, "with a pinch of salt", I'd say to take.

[QuakingStar]

There's no Cell Games in the continuity of the first Broly movie. There are several hints at Cell no longer being a threat (or any type of threat out there for that matter) by the time the movie starts.

Also, ancillary material written by NOT-Toei-or-Toriyama, "with a pinch of salt", I'd say to take.

So you're saying not to take the Daizenshuu seriously then. I don't know about that.

[Kaboom]

Daizenshuu 6 doesn't say that Movie 8 literally takes place during the 10 days before the Cell Games, just that it's "around the time of the final showdown with Cell," and even makes a tongue-in-cheek comment about how it's a "mystery" why everyone's so relaxed in spite of that. It's one of those situations where it's purposely vague so we can fill in the blanks ourselves, and assuming it's an AU where Cell was already beaten and the Cell Games aren't about to happen is perfectly valid.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The Daizenshuu doesn’t delve into the fan theories of the movies being what if stories. During production, the movies just take the status quo as it is and assumes it’ll last (e.g. Movie 8 taking characters from when Vegeta and Trunks fought Cell) and the Daizenshuu just makes an educated guess on where they could fit. They even tried to fit Metal Cooler in the Cell Games era because of Dende.

On the Janemba statement from the defunct website, I think it could go either way. It’s not just him and a editor like Toriyama, there’s a whole creative team doing these decisions.

[QuakingStar]

Daizenshuu 6 doesn't say that Movie 8 literally takes place during the 10 days before the Cell Games, just that it's "around the time of the final showdown with Cell," and even makes a tongue-in-cheek comment about how it's a "mystery" why everyone's so relaxed in spite of that. It's one of those situations where it's purposely vague so we can fill in the blanks ourselves, and assuming it's an AU where Cell was already beaten and the Cell Games aren't about to happen is perfectly valid.

Yes, and this doesn't discount Cell's strength at all. They still treat Broly like he's a bigger threat considering Gohan is told to flee instead of fight.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Going by the anime and movies, how would rank these characters from strongest to weakest as of Super Hero?

Super Saiyan Blue Goku
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Super Saiyan Rage Trunks
Ultimate Gohan
Ultimate Piccolo
Android 17
Hit
Toppo
Golden Frieza
Wrathful Broly
Gamma 1/2

[Goku9001]

Going by the anime and movies, how would rank these characters from strongest to weakest as of Super Hero?

Super Saiyan Blue Goku
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Super Saiyan Rage Trunks
Ultimate Gohan
Ultimate Piccolo
Android 17
Hit
Toppo
Golden Frieza
Wrathful Broly
Gamma 1/2

1. Golden Frieza (Broly)
2. Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta (Broly)
3. Wrathful Broly
4. Ultimate Gohan
5. Gammas/Blue Saiyans (ToP)
6. Ultimate Piccolo
7. Toppo
8. Hit
9. Android 17
10. Super Saiyan Rage Trunks
11. Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black

I'm more than willing to go in-depth on any of it if anyone wants me to. This is assuming the movie's powerscaling directly builds upon the anime's powerscaling.

[Yuji]

Going by the anime and movies, how would rank these characters from strongest to weakest as of Super Hero?

Super Saiyan Blue Goku
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Super Saiyan Rage Trunks
Ultimate Gohan
Ultimate Piccolo
Android 17
Hit
Toppo
Golden Frieza
Wrathful Broly
Gamma 1/2

1. Ultimate Gohan
Stronger than Gamma 1 albeit slightly.

2./3./4/5. SSB Goku = Gamma 1/2 = Golden Freeza
All directly comparable to each other.

6. Toppo
Post ToP, he should be weaker than the standard SSB considering he was equal to a ToP SSB.

7. Ultimate Piccolo
Weaker than Gamma 2 but still put up a fight.

8. Hit
Was never ridiculously strong but made up for it with his techniques. Being able to damage Jiren should give him some credit over Goku Black and Trunks.

9. Goku Black
10. Trunks
I never saw Trunks having surpassed him. Stronger than 17 because I don't think Goku and Vegeta improved too much from Zamasu to the ToP, the implication is the opposite that they got weaker.

11. #17
Always portrayed as slightly weaker than a ToP SSB. At the very least is impressed by Freeza's strength who scales to SSB.

12. Broly
More relative to SSG. He was being dominated by SSB Goku.

[Kazuya Mishima]

I would go with something like

Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Super Saiyan Blue Goku
Golden Frieza / Toppo
Super Saiyan Rage Trunks
Hit
Wrathful Broly
Ultimate Gohan
Gamma 1/2
Ultimate Piccolo
Android 17

Bit awkward I suppose but the reasoning being that I don't think Goku got any notably stronger in Blue form from the end of the Goku Black arc to the Broly movie. He'd apparently got rusty from Goku Black to the Zen Exhibition and the Tournament was only just after that and the Broly movie barely after that.

Goku Black should probably be stronger than that then yeah? Maybe.

Golden Frieza and Toppo were pretty much as strong as Blue Goku during the Tournament.

Trunks was seemingly as strong as Blue Goku and Vegeta by the end of the Goku Black arc so he'd be barely behind Golden Frieza and Toppo if at all.

Hit is awkward to place, he practically tied with Blue Goku just before the Tournament though was weaker. In the Tournament though when comparing his fight with Dyspo against Golden Frieza then he seemed well behind so he could be lower maybe.

Wrathful Broly gave Blue Goku a good run for his money.

Ultimate Gohan was said to rival Blue Goku but during the Tournament he was clearly behind Toppo who shrugged off his Kamehameha no problem. He could have been stronger in the Super Hero movie but I'm just going by the Tournament as it was more concrete. Broly did put up a better fight against Goku than Gohan did against Toppo anyway.

The Gammas were pretty much on the same level as Gohan really. They were said to be on par with Blue Goku so maybe I've got them too low but they're all close together that they can still count as being on par.

Ultimate Piccolo obviously weaker than Gamma 2. Could be weaker than Android 17 but I'll go with higher.

Android 17 should be weaker than the Gammas as they were said to be the mightiest Androids and the manga did make out Gohan was above Android 17.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Going by the anime and movies, how would rank these characters from strongest to weakest as of Super Hero?

Super Saiyan Blue Goku
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Super Saiyan Rage Trunks
Ultimate Gohan
Ultimate Piccolo
Android 17
Hit
Toppo
Golden Frieza
Wrathful Broly
Gamma 1/2

Some of these guys are a bit hard because we haven't seen them in a while... So I'll just use their last seen versions.

1. Golden Freeza
Vegeta was worried Freeza would surpass them, so I think he can be a bit stronger than the rest of the gang.

2. Ultimate Gohan
Has the upperhand over Gamma 1. Not sure if he trained a bit more before slacking, or if the rage just made him stronger.

3/4/5/6. SSJB Goku/SSJB Vegeta/Gamma 1/Gamma 2
I don't think Goku and Vegeta have gotten a lot stronger since the ToP (At least not in their normal forms), so Piccolo is on point with the Gamma ~ Saiyans comparisons, despite last seeing them vs Broly.

7. Ultimate Piccolo
A step behind Gamma 2.

8. Ikari Broly
A step behind SSJB Goku from 3 years ago.

9. SSJ Rage Future Trunks
Kaio-Ken and Kamehameha aside, Trunks fought Merged Zamasu better than Goku and Vegeta. He's also the only one explicitly noted to power up by fighting Zamasu.

10. SSJR Goku Black
I think by the end of the saga, Goku had caught up to Goku Black. They're the same body and Goku has been pushing himself at least as hard, if not even harder against Zamasu. He then surpasses Black for good as he has more battles in later sagas while Black had long ceased to exist.

11. Toppo
As of the ToP, Toppo got his ass kicked by Goku in the Exhibition Match. Since he's not a Saiyan, he could not power up from endless battles.

12. Hit
This is just counting his raw power. With special skills (Even non lethal ones we saw in the ToP), he's easily at the top of the list.

13. Android 17
Was running on fumes against Toppo.

[Yuji]

Between all the continuities, the larger cast and the vague power scaling, it's really hard to make out how strong everyone is compared to each other. In the original series it was always obviously outside of a few niche debates in the Boo arc.

I wonder if we'll ever get guides with transformation multipliers or strength comparisons like the old 90s/00s guides.

[Kazuya Mishima]

I don't know if Gamma 1 and 2 literally have to be as strong as Blue Goku. Wouldn't it just be like the narrator saying Gohan rivalled Goku and Goku himself saying Android 17 was about as strong as he was?

During the Tournament Toppo was as strong as Blue Vegeta and Gohan and Android 17 were clearly beneath him. However the latter was able to hold his own against Toppo pretty well.

So I'd have said the difference between Goku and Gammas was like the difference between Toppo and Android 17.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I don't know if Gamma 1 and 2 literally have to be as strong as Blue Goku. Wouldn't it just be like the narrator saying Gohan rivalled Goku and Goku himself saying Android 17 was about as strong as he was?

During the Tournament Toppo was as strong as Blue Vegeta and Gohan and Android 17 were clearly beneath him. However the latter was able to hold his own against Toppo pretty well.

So I'd have said the difference between Goku and Gammas was like the difference between Toppo and Android 17.

I don’t think they have to be equals either, they definitely aren’t in the manga. But if the shoe fits…

At the very least we know Gammas > 17 based on promotional material, and Gohan was = 17 in the ToP. So I’d say they’re at least on pair with Toppo and Gohan is at least on pair with Goku (Start of ToP). I prefer to put everyone up there with current SSJB to have everyone on the same level.

[Thani]

Going by the anime and movies, how would rank these characters from strongest to weakest as of Super Hero?

Super Saiyan Blue Goku
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Super Saiyan Rage Trunks
Ultimate Gohan
Ultimate Piccolo
Android 17
Hit
Toppo
Golden Frieza
Wrathful Broly
Gamma 1/2

Well, let's see...

#1. Golden Freeza - like it or not, Freeza was implied to have grown stronger and then outright shown so when he lasted an entire hour against a rampaging Broly without even reverting to his final form, and with energy to spare still since he tried to kill Lemo and Cheelai afterwards. By comparison, Vegeta and Goku were winded after a few minutes fighting the same Broly and went back to base as soon as they reached Piccolo.

#2. SSB Goku / SSR Black / Toppo - It can be argued that Goku surpassed Black thanks to his fight against Zamasu, but I don't agree with that sentiment. It was clearly stated that Goku broke his limits in order to push back Zamasu's attack, which left both his arms broken afterwards, so it's not his regular full power. Plus, he actually became rusty prior to the ToP, so his ki definitely degraded between arcs. So I would put those 3 on the same rough level.

#3. Ultimate Gohan / Android 17 / The Gammas / Ikari Broly - Promotional material shouldn't be given too much weight when compared with actual showings. Dr. Hedo believed the Gammas to be the strongest androids, but that's only his belief, what was shown was the Gammas performing on the same level as Gohan, who also performed on the same level as 17. And Gohan was not shown or stated to have grown stronger between arcs, quite the opposite, actually. Again. Still, they're all on the level where they can challenge SSB Goku and Vegeta, as stated on the movie.

#4. Ultimate Piccolo - Piccolo had enough strength to hold his own against a Gamma, but still lost. Meanwhile Gohan was going toe to toe against his own Gamma. So it's pretty straightforward where he's positioned.

#5. Hit - Hit doesn't actually need to be powerful to defeat all of the above. He's an assassin, not a warrior, so he doesn't actually focus on raw power. I put him as the weakest on this list because of that, but that's only in terms of ki and physical power. His Time Skip absolutely would allow him to beat everyone else if he play smarts... so, basically, if he fights as he usually does.

[Kazuya Mishima]

So I’d say they’re at least on pair with Toppo and Gohan is at least on pair with Goku (Start of ToP). I prefer to put everyone up there with current SSJB to have everyone on the same level.

Gohan and Android 17 were shown to be inferior to Toppo. Not enough so they couldn't hold their own but clearly a step behind whereas Toppo was on the same level as Goku and Vegeta.