Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Vegeta said they hit their limits then went to the Rosat and trained a few months to surpass Goku Black. How's that for limits? Goku even catches up without any training by the time of the ToP.

[Goku9001]

In terms of their overall power, they were not at their limits. I never denied this, I have always praised UI Goku as limit-breaking form. They can always evolve through new forms, ofc I don't deny this. Dragon Ball runs on new transformations, Saiyans will always evolve through new, limit-breaking forms.

And one important thing about these new forms is that they always rely on mastery of Ki, technique, skill, rather than pure strength. Goku and Vegeta's evolution is no longer based on pure power level, but on their mastery and skill.

But once they get new form, their older forms because outdated and irrelevant, only used for niche purposes. SSG proves this clearly. SSG never evolves, never grows stronger, it is only used for very niche purpose, as shown by Vegeta vs. Black in Manga.

The argument you presented to prove this is inherently false. On both occasions that Vegeta claimed that they were at their limits, their peak powers being present in their Blue forms, ended up not being the case. Prior to training for the U6 Tournament, Vegeta claimed they were at their limits. At the end of their RoSaT training, Vegeta claimed that they had become stronger. The filler arc that followed after confirmed that Copy Vegeta and Goku had both gotten stronger since the tournament. Likewise, Vegeta claimed they were at their limits after losing to Black and Zamasu again. And yet, Blue Vegeta had become stronger after training in the RoSaT and was noted to be growing even stronger as he continued overpowering Black.

These moments confirm that regardless of Vegeta's sentiments, their Blue forms never once reached their limits. Ultra Instinct, Kaioken, and Blue Evolved were merely one avenue to break beyond their limits but it's not the only way.

That's only because they had senzu beans.

If they did not have senzu beans, both Goku and Vegeta were finished.

Vegeta was defeated completely when he sacrificed himself to shield Trunks from Zamasu's attack. Goku broke the bones in his body with his life-risking move. Both of them were exhausted and incapacitated. Meanwhile, Zamasu was still standing and overflowing with energy.

Luckily for them, they had senzu beans, so they could have potentially kept fighting against Zamasu if he didn't power-up... but that would still mean that SSB peaked. If they did not have senzu beans, SSB wouldn't have been enough to beat even Pre Power-up Fused Zamasu.

Senzu bean is a cheat code. SSB Kaioken broke through Zamasu's halo but failed to put down the God permanently.

There's no denying that they would have lost without the sensu beans. The point still stands that Gowasu didn't contest the Blue Saiyans' and Trunks' ability to force back Merged Zamasu until he powered up even further. As such, Gowasu believed that their powers were enough to have a chance against Merged Zamasu. The narrator of Episode 66 also confirmed that Merged Zamasu no longer displayed overwhelming power.

That's not to say their power was enough to definitively win. Only that their powers weren't so far removed that Gowasu, Goku, and Vegeta all firmly believed that fusion was absolutely necessary.

[Miracles]

Also, I believe Caulifa was growing power wise because she had potential she was building to. While Goku on the other hand was only regaining his strength that he lost from Jiren while fighting Caulifa.Pushing himself against incredible power with an already strained body. Till ultimately it broke his limits reaching UI Sign/UI. I don't see Goku gaining new power while fighting in his lower modes whilst tired other than UI.

Agreed. This is what happened.

All those statements above ironically prove our point, so I must thank GreatSaiyaman123 for providing them.

Those statements are hyping up Caulifla, and Caulifla is worthy of praise. She had massive untapped potential, the Recruitment episodes touched on this with Cabba praising how quickly she became Super Saiyan and how easily she got attuned to it. During the Tournament, it is Caulifla who is growing, constantly unlocking more and more of her hidden potential (UI Goku notwithstanding).

I forgot that Caulifla was this hyped in the Story, I only remembered her as fodder for Kefla. A mere stepping stone for Kefla. But those statements have reminded Me that she was a force to be reckoned with on her own. I stand corrected on Caulifla.

Goku? Goku already peaked, already reached limits, this was stated in FT saga and earlier arcs. All Goku did was regain some of his depleted power and use a higher % of it as a result.

You are also right when you say that it makes no sense for Goku to grow stronger in a weaker form, otherwise UI is worthless and redundant if Goku can just grow hundreds of times stronger in SSB.

Yes. However TOEI's inconsistent writing didn't help. Having a fatigued Red Goku handle a stronger Kale later when his Blue form earlier struggled with her.You can see why people assume Goku got stronger in his lower modes as the TOP went on.

[ZombieVito]

Also, I believe Caulifa was growing power wise because she had potential she was building to. While Goku on the other hand was only regaining his strength that he lost from Jiren while fighting Caulifa.Pushing himself against incredible power with an already strained body. Till ultimately it broke his limits reaching UI Sign/UI. I don't see Goku gaining new power while fighting in his lower modes whilst tired other than UI.

Agreed. This is what happened.

All those statements above ironically prove our point, so I must thank GreatSaiyaman123 for providing them.

Those statements are hyping up Caulifla, and Caulifla is worthy of praise. She had massive untapped potential, the Recruitment episodes touched on this with Cabba praising how quickly she became Super Saiyan and how easily she got attuned to it. During the Tournament, it is Caulifla who is growing, constantly unlocking more and more of her hidden potential (UI Goku notwithstanding).

I forgot that Caulifla was this hyped in the Story, I only remembered her as fodder for Kefla. A mere stepping stone for Kefla. But those statements have reminded Me that she was a force to be reckoned with on her own. I stand corrected on Caulifla.

Goku? Goku already peaked, already reached limits, this was stated in FT saga and earlier arcs. All Goku did was regain some of his depleted power and use a higher % of it as a result.

You are also right when you say that it makes no sense for Goku to grow stronger in a weaker form, otherwise UI is worthless and redundant if Goku can just grow hundreds of times stronger in SSB.

Yes. However TOEI's inconsistent writing didn't help. Having a fatigued Red Goku handle a stronger Kale later when his Blue form earlier struggled with her.You can see why people assume Goku got stronger in his lower modes as the TOP went on.

Goku never used full power against Kale on their first match. The series is clear on that. I have no idea how people can get confused about it.

[SupremeKai25]

The argument you presented to prove this is inherently false. On both occasions that Vegeta claimed that they were at their limits, their peak powers being present in their Blue forms, ended up not being the case.

Yes, it was the case. SSB Vegeta never got any significant gain again after he made that claim. He got stomped by Fused Zamasu, almost killed by Zamasu, needed Fusion to survive, and was left behind before SSBE.

There's no denying that they would have lost without the sensu beans. The point still stands that Gowasu didn't contest the Blue Saiyans' and Trunks' ability to force back Merged Zamasu until he powered up even further. As such, Gowasu believed that their powers were enough to have a chance against Merged Zamasu. The narrator of Episode 66 also confirmed that Merged Zamasu no longer displayed overwhelming power.

That's not to say their power was enough to definitively win. Only that their powers weren't so far removed that Gowasu, Goku, and Vegeta all firmly believed that fusion was absolutely necessary.

Gowasu literally stated that only a power far beyond SSB Kaioken could even hope to damage the empowered Fused Zamasu.

Also, I believe Caulifa was growing power wise because she had potential she was building to. While Goku on the other hand was only regaining his strength that he lost from Jiren while fighting Caulifa.Pushing himself against incredible power with an already strained body. Till ultimately it broke his limits reaching UI Sign/UI. I don't see Goku gaining new power while fighting in his lower modes whilst tired other than UI.

Agreed. This is what happened.

All those statements above ironically prove our point, so I must thank GreatSaiyaman123 for providing them.

Those statements are hyping up Caulifla, and Caulifla is worthy of praise. She had massive untapped potential, the Recruitment episodes touched on this with Cabba praising how quickly she became Super Saiyan and how easily she got attuned to it. During the Tournament, it is Caulifla who is growing, constantly unlocking more and more of her hidden potential (UI Goku notwithstanding).

I forgot that Caulifla was this hyped in the Story, I only remembered her as fodder for Kefla. A mere stepping stone for Kefla. But those statements have reminded Me that she was a force to be reckoned with on her own. I stand corrected on Caulifla.

Goku? Goku already peaked, already reached limits, this was stated in FT saga and earlier arcs. All Goku did was regain some of his depleted power and use a higher % of it as a result.

You are also right when you say that it makes no sense for Goku to grow stronger in a weaker form, otherwise UI is worthless and redundant if Goku can just grow hundreds of times stronger in SSB.

Yes. However TOEI's inconsistent writing didn't help. Having a fatigued Red Goku handle a stronger Kale later when his Blue form earlier struggled with her.You can see why people assume Goku got stronger in his lower modes as the TOP went on.

Statements matter more than feats, they always did, they always will.

Feats are irrelevant, feats exist only to embellish a fight.

Only thing that matter is statements.

Despite Super Anime having multiple writers, the statements tend to not conflict with each other.

SSG Goku handled stronger Kefla only because Toei writers wanted to give more spotlight to that underused form, nothing more.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Here’s another statement, then:

Episode: 127
Time: 07:19-07:27
Context: Jiren block Vegeta's punch
Jiren: "A good punch. I can see why you were able to defeat Toppo. But, you won't beat me with that!"

Vegeta got stronger fighting Toppo. And it sounds pretty significant, since Toppo is said to be “no different from a god of destruction”.

[Koitsukai]

Statements matter the most until there's one that implies one's favourite character has been surpassed. Even when there are even more statements leaving no room for nitpicking.

Spoiler:

[ZombieVito]

Statements matter the most until there's one that implies one's favourite character has been surpassed. Even when there are even more statements leaving no room for nitpicking.

Spoiler:

This one is very ambiguous though. The way they talk, you would assume they are feeling Jiren's full power since he's directly compared to a God of Destruction. This is why I only have Jiren surpassing Vegetto and Fused Zamasu by episode 122 since Vegeta's statement is a more direct A > B.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Both statements about Jiren always felt like they were talking about Jiren's full power somehow. Everybody knows it's FP Jiren who's GoD level, not Suppressed Jiren. After all, Kefla isn't compared to GoDs, and Sign Goku is said to not be GoD level yet.

Talking about Kefla, placing her above Vegetto Blue? Naaah. Vegetto was nerfed, but not that nerfed. And Goku and Vegeta reaching Vegetto Blue with a 20x boost doesn't add up either.

[ZombieVito]

Both statements about Jiren always felt like they were talking about Jiren's full power somehow. Everybody knows it's FP Jiren who's GoD level, not Suppressed Jiren. After all, Kefla isn't compared to GoDs, and Sign Goku is said to not be GoD level yet.

Talking about Kefla, placing her above Vegetto Blue? Naaah. Vegetto was nerfed, but not that nerfed. And Goku and Vegeta reaching Vegetto Blue with a 20x boost doesn't add up either.

Well, in my case, it's a 100 times boost since I have them getting 5 times stronger in their base but I still have Vegetto stronger than even SSBE Vegeta after beating Toppo.

I guess Vegetto wasn't as strong because Vegeta and Goku weren't equal in power in that arc.

[Goku9001]

Yes, it was the case. SSB Vegeta never got any significant gain again after he made that claim. He got stomped by Fused Zamasu, almost killed by Zamasu, needed Fusion to survive, and was left behind before SSBE.

Prior to the RoSaT, Goku Black had no issues beating both him and Super Saiyan 2 Trunks simultaneously. Afterward, Blue Vegeta went against a Goku Black who powered up against Enraged Blue Goku and twice against SSJ Rage Trunks. Goku Black was evidently no match for Vegeta. Goku Black says as much when he claimed there to be a massive gap between the two.

Episode: 63
Time: 21:07-21:10
Context: Blue Vegeta relentlessly beats down Goku Black after parrying his blade.
Goku Black: "Why is there such a difference in strength?"

Vegeta's growth in power is reaffirmed at the end of the fight.

Episode: 64
Time: 4:05-4:10
Context: Goku Black begins to understand the nature of Vegeta's power.
Goku Black: "I now understand how you were able to improve so rapidly.

These are Goku Black's words which clearly show that Blue Vegeta was far from his limits as it is reaffirmed twice that Vegeta improved significantly. He was completely powerless against Black and then maintains a substantial edge against a much stronger version of Black. Vegeta was not at his limits. You are ignoring Black's statements.

If you still want to double down on Vegeta's statement, then you must also acknowledge what Vegeta says later on when he confronts Merged Zamasu.

Episode: 66
Time: 14:20-14:26
Context: Vegeta and Goku prepare to confront Merged Zamasu's purple Wall of Light.
Vegeta: "Keep blabbing! Saiyans have no limits! "
Goku: " Yeah! Here goes, full power!

So according to Vegeta, Saiyans don't have limits so he can push himself to an even greater level against Merged Zamasu. Goku completely agrees and finally claims that they will go full power. Full power in this context means showcasing what Saiyans are truly capable of by pushing themselves beyond their limits. This means that they did not reach their limits until their battle with Merged Zamasu.

The notion that they reached their limits against Black? Completely unfounded and contradicted.

Gowasu literally stated that only a power far beyond SSB Kaioken could even hope to damage the empowered Fused Zamasu.

You don't understand. Gowasu, Goku, and Vegeta only believe the power of fusion was necessary once Merged Zamasu's power surged from his own hatred. Prior to Merged Zamasu's mutation, everyone believed that the Saiyans' power would be enough to overcome Merged Zamasu. That doesn't mean that they would win but for Gowasu to believe that the Saiyans' had a chance would imply that their power wasn't so far removed from Merged Zamasu's where they would be completely helpless.

Your argument is about Corrupted Merged Zamasu. Mine was about Halo Merged Zamasu who is dimensions above Goku Black.

[Miracles]

Agreed. This is what happened.

All those statements above ironically prove our point, so I must thank GreatSaiyaman123 for providing them.

Those statements are hyping up Caulifla, and Caulifla is worthy of praise. She had massive untapped potential, the Recruitment episodes touched on this with Cabba praising how quickly she became Super Saiyan and how easily she got attuned to it. During the Tournament, it is Caulifla who is growing, constantly unlocking more and more of her hidden potential (UI Goku notwithstanding).

I forgot that Caulifla was this hyped in the Story, I only remembered her as fodder for Kefla. A mere stepping stone for Kefla. But those statements have reminded Me that she was a force to be reckoned with on her own. I stand corrected on Caulifla.

Goku? Goku already peaked, already reached limits, this was stated in FT saga and earlier arcs. All Goku did was regain some of his depleted power and use a higher % of it as a result.

You are also right when you say that it makes no sense for Goku to grow stronger in a weaker form, otherwise UI is worthless and redundant if Goku can just grow hundreds of times stronger in SSB.

Yes. However TOEI's inconsistent writing didn't help. Having a fatigued Red Goku handle a stronger Kale later when his Blue form earlier struggled with her.You can see why people assume Goku got stronger in his lower modes as the TOP went on.

Goku never used full power against Kale on their first match. The series is clear on that. I have no idea how people can get confused about it.

Is there a direct statement saying that? It was noted before that Goku refused turning Blue to save energy.

[ZombieVito]

Is there a direct statement saying that? It was noted before that Goku refused turning Blue to save energy.

Yes. The U11 Kaioshin says that Goku is using his full power after he turns Blue while facing Jiren. He says to Belmod that Jiren beating Goku like this will serve to demoralize the rest of the fighters, making them lose the will to fight and that can't work with Goku going full power against Kale before.

[Miracles]

Is there a direct statement saying that? It was noted before that Goku refused turning Blue to save energy.

Yes. The U11 Kaioshin says that Goku is using his full power after he turns Blue while facing Jiren. He says to Belmod that Jiren beating Goku like this will serve to demoralize the rest of the fighters, making them lose the will to fight and that can't work with Goku going full power against Kale before.

It was stated that Goku was already testing Jiren's power with lower modes before he went Blue [Full power].
If he was holding back against Kale he would of used lower modes too.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It was stated that Goku was already testing Jiren's power with lower modes before he went Blue [Full power].
If he was holding back against Kale he would of used lower modes too.

But there were no lower modes to use. SSJ2 just got bodied, SSJ3 wouldn't fare any better, and it wasn't known that SSJG was back on the table yet.

[ZombieVito]

It was stated that Goku was already testing Jiren's power with lower modes before he went Blue [Full power].
If he was holding back against Kale he would of used lower modes too.

Khai's entire conversation with Belmod about the other fighters losing their will to fight after witnessing Jiren beating SSB Goku completely breaks if Goku already used his full power with Kale.

[Goku9001]

Based on Vegeta and Toppo's reactions to Berserker Kale's power reawakening during Goku's fight with Caulifa, I always had the impression that Berserker Kale was on par with Blue Vegeta and Toppo. That coincides with Vegeta telling Goku to be cautious when he fought Kale the first time around. Based on Vegeta's warning, I think it's fair to assume that Goku treated things frivolously and wasn't necessarily going all out.

The comparison of Blue Goku when he fights Jiren and what Belmod seems to think about Goku is an interesting one. I got the impression that Blue Goku had grown stronger and became the strongest for whatever reason. Vegeta is a non-factor and Belmod talks about Jiren will finally show his "absolute power" in order to beat Goku. That would mean that Jiren's power that immediately destroyed Kale wouldn't be enough to beat Blue Goku. Given what Vegeta seemed to think of Berserker Kale and his warning to Goku, I definitely don't think the impression was that Blue Goku would stomp Berserker Kale at the time. I think it was just a case of Goku's power growing stronger by the time he fights Jiren.

[SupremeKai25]

Yes, it was the case. SSB Vegeta never got any significant gain again after he made that claim. He got stomped by Fused Zamasu, almost killed by Zamasu, needed Fusion to survive, and was left behind before SSBE.

Prior to the RoSaT, Goku Black had no issues beating both him and Super Saiyan 2 Trunks simultaneously. Afterward, Blue Vegeta went against a Goku Black who powered up against Enraged Blue Goku and twice against SSJ Rage Trunks. Goku Black was evidently no match for Vegeta. Goku Black says as much when he claimed there to be a massive gap between the two.

Episode: 63
Time: 21:07-21:10
Context: Blue Vegeta relentlessly beats down Goku Black after parrying his blade.
Goku Black: "Why is there such a difference in strength?"

Vegeta's growth in power is reaffirmed at the end of the fight.

Episode: 64
Time: 4:05-4:10
Context: Goku Black begins to understand the nature of Vegeta's power.
Goku Black: "I now understand how you were able to improve so rapidly.

These are Goku Black's words which clearly show that Blue Vegeta was far from his limits as it is reaffirmed twice that Vegeta improved significantly. He was completely powerless against Black and then maintains a substantial edge against a much stronger version of Black. Vegeta was not at his limits. You are ignoring Black's statements.

If you still want to double down on Vegeta's statement, then you must also acknowledge what Vegeta says later on when he confronts Merged Zamasu.

Episode: 66
Time: 14:20-14:26
Context: Vegeta and Goku prepare to confront Merged Zamasu's purple Wall of Light.
Vegeta: "Keep blabbing! Saiyans have no limits! "
Goku: " Yeah! Here goes, full power!

So according to Vegeta, Saiyans don't have limits so he can push himself to an even greater level against Merged Zamasu. Goku completely agrees and finally claims that they will go full power. Full power in this context means showcasing what Saiyans are truly capable of by pushing themselves beyond their limits. This means that they did not reach their limits until their battle with Merged Zamasu.

The notion that they reached their limits against Black? Completely unfounded and contradicted.

Gowasu literally stated that only a power far beyond SSB Kaioken could even hope to damage the empowered Fused Zamasu.

You don't understand. Gowasu, Goku, and Vegeta only believe the power of fusion was necessary once Merged Zamasu's power surged from his own hatred. Prior to Merged Zamasu's mutation, everyone believed that the Saiyans' power would be enough to overcome Merged Zamasu. That doesn't mean that they would win but for Gowasu to believe that the Saiyans' had a chance would imply that their power wasn't so far removed from Merged Zamasu's where they would be completely helpless.

Your argument is about Corrupted Merged Zamasu. Mine was about Halo Merged Zamasu who is dimensions above Goku Black.

I am not talking about that, I am talking about when Vegeta told Fused Zamasu the same line, which was the screenshot that you originally posted. SSB Vegeta never grew stronger in any meaningful way after that.

So according to Vegeta, Saiyans don't have limits so he can push himself to an even greater level against Merged Zamasu. Goku completely agrees and finally claims that they will go full power. Full power in this context means showcasing what Saiyans are truly capable of by pushing themselves beyond their limits. This means that they did not reach their limits until their battle with Merged Zamasu.

Then proceeded to get effortlessly oneshot by Zamasu, which you by the way did not mention when posting that screenshot.

The notion that they reached their limits against Black? Completely unfounded and contradicted.

Good thing that I have repeatedly stated it was FUSED ZAMASU who pushed them to their absolute limits.

You don't understand. Gowasu, Goku, and Vegeta only believe the power of fusion was necessary once Merged Zamasu's power surged from his own hatred. Prior to Merged Zamasu's mutation, everyone believed that the Saiyans' power would be enough to overcome Merged Zamasu. That doesn't mean that they would win but for Gowasu to believe that the Saiyans' had a chance would imply that their power wasn't so far removed from Merged Zamasu's where they would be completely helpless.

I don't remember this at all actually, can you post the scan when they said they stood a chance against Zamasu?

On the contrary, I distinctly remember Shin and Gowasu being in absolute disbelief at Zamasu's power and believing that he was unbeatable, and it was only Goku and Vegeta themselves who didn't want to give up.

Also, as a reminder, while Vegeta and Trunks barely pushed back Zamasu's Holy Wrath (Zamasu who was still jobbing because Vegeta said he was underestimating saiyans), Zamasu effortlessly oneshot Vegeta right after when he sacrificed himself for Trunks. So Vegeta was definitely fodder to Zamasu and stood no chance against him and this is one thing Anime and Manga have in common: Vegeta is fodder to Fused Zamasu, only Goku has a semblance of a chance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rcr-e3MIr4Q

[Miracles]

It was stated that Goku was already testing Jiren's power with lower modes before he went Blue [Full power].
If he was holding back against Kale he would of used lower modes too.

But there were no lower modes to use. SSJ2 just got bodied, SSJ3 wouldn't fare any better, and it wasn't known that SSJG was back on the table yet.

Goku had SSJ3 and Red to use against Kale. May I ask what do you mean that SSJG wasn't back on the table yet?

It was stated that Goku was already testing Jiren's power with lower modes before he went Blue [Full power].
If he was holding back against Kale he would of used lower modes too.

Khai's entire conversation with Belmod about the other fighters losing their will to fight after witnessing Jiren beating SSB Goku completely breaks if Goku already used his full power with Kale.

It broke because the other fighters didn't lose their will to fight.

[Hugo Boss]

I don’t think the gods were particularly worried about Berserker Kale, because Goku didn’t use kaioken against her, which they knew it was Goku’s strongest form at the moment. It would be safe to assume for them that Goku could have handled Kale on his own if she was his main target anyway.

That doesn’t change the fact that regular Blue is no match for Berserker Kale, since there is nothing on that scene implying Goku was holding back.