Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[QuakingStar]

I don’t think the gods were particularly worried about Berserker Kale, because Goku didn’t use kaioken against her, which they knew it was Goku’s strongest form at the moment. It would be safe to assume for them that Goku could have handled Kale on his own if she was his main target anyway.

That doesn’t change the fact that regular Blue is no match for Berserker Kale, since there is nothing on that scene implying Goku was holding back.

It was directly implied that Kale was starting to lose power though wasn't it? She was starting to hurt herself with the amount of power she was bulding up and then it started to hurt her so she was actually getting weaker after she released it, and even by the time she gains control of LSS she still doesn't use the level of power she used against SSB Goku that she had earlier on, I guess she just didn't heal enough or recuperate enough to use that level of power again

[ankokudaishogun]

That doesn’t change the fact that regular Blue is no match for Berserker Kale, since there is nothing on that scene implying Goku was holding back.

Not in the scene by itself, but it makes much more sense in the wider context.

I'd say Goku did underestimate Kale more than he held back.
Or, of we want to arc back to the Movie 8 references, Vegeta 's keener Saiyan instincts told him Kale was a greater danger than she did seem.

Plus, the whole "power keeps growing": Goku might have used an adequate amount of power but didn't take in account Kale's overflowing growth surpassing it one the spot .

She might have been, say, 50% Blue with Goku using 60% of his power: enough to defeat her without using too much energy. But Kale did grew to, say, 70% Blue and defeated him because he was surprised of her sudden increase of power.

[Miracles]

Berserk Kale was said to be formidable by Toppo who is Blue level in the anime. Yet has SSJ2 Goku, who is fatigued, actually trade with her more powerful controlled state. This is with the help of Caulifa by the way too. This is just bad writing by TOEI.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku had SSJ3 and Red to use against Kale. May I ask what do you mean that SSJG wasn't back on the table yet?
[

SSJ3 is useless. Goku didn’t use it against Jiren either. It’s not revealed that Goku can still go SSJG until a few episodes later, so it’s unknown if writers knew Goku could use SSJG here.

SSJB is like 50x SSJG anyway. Even if she’s above SSJG somehow (She isn’t) Goku doesn’t have to be going all out here. He’s not even injured by the beatdown.

[Miracles]

Goku had SSJ3 and Red to use against Kale. May I ask what do you mean that SSJG wasn't back on the table yet?
[

SSJ3 is useless. Goku didn’t use it against Jiren either. It’s not revealed that Goku can still go SSJG until a few episodes later, so it’s unknown if writers knew Goku could use SSJG here.

SSJB is like 50x SSJG anyway. Even if she’s above SSJG somehow (She isn’t) Goku doesn’t have to be going all out here. He’s not even injured by the beatdown.

SSJG was transformed back into in BoG when Goku punched Beerus's Ball. Goku could have used it against Kale if he wanted to hold back. Especially when Blue was stated to use up tons of stamina transforming into it.

[Goku9001]

It is poor writing because it is confusing and all over the place. This is ultimately how I view it:

Blue Goku (vs. Jiren) > God Goku (vs. Caulifa/Kale) > Controlled Kale > Blue Goku (vs. Kale) ~ Blue Vegeta ~ Toppo ~ Berserker Kale >> Super Saiyan 2 Goku (vs. Caulifa/Kale)

When Goku battles Berserker Kale for the first time, it's evident that he needed his Blue form to battle him. Upon being overwhelmed, he resorted to his Blue form immediately. Vegeta also warns Goku to be careful which means that Blue Goku's power shouldn't be so far removed from Berserker Kale where he would easily win. As Miracles said, Goku wanted to preserve his stamina for the tournament by refraining from using his Blue form. The fact that he resorted to his Blue form suggests that it was necessary. Furthermore, both Blue Vegeta and Toppo express concerns about Berserker Kale's power during their fight. Toppo claims that he cannot underestimate the Saiyans. That seems to suggest that she wasn't that far from Blue Vegeta and Toppo which would explain why Jiren immediately felt the need to get involved.

By the time Goku battles Jiren, he seems to be treated as the strongest opponent for Jiren. Belmod claims that Jiren will finally be using his "absolute power" despite disposing of Kale prior. Marcarita suggests that Goku isn't someone they should underestimate. Belmod also claims that everyone will lose morale after Jiren defeats Goku. While it can be argued this would be in reference to his Blue Kaioken form, I don't think that is the case. Jiren immediately respects Goku the moment he uses his Blue form. When Blue Goku and Jiren were bouncing around the arena, everyone was watching them in awe. Blue Goku's fight with Jiren was treated as a huge spectacle. The way I see it is that Blue Goku had become much stronger for whatever reason which would explain why the power Jiren used on Berserker Kale wouldn't be enough.

During Goku's rematch with Kale and Caulifa, I think it's clear that Super Saiyan 2 Goku is no match for Berserker Kale. When Berserker Kale's power was released again, SSJ2 Goku was gritting his teeth and trembling in fear. The main reason why SSJ2 Goku did as well as he did against Controlled Kale is likely because Kale allowed Caulifa to take the lead. She did vow to battle alongside Caulifa. Once Kale battles Super Saiyan God Goku, she blatantly outperforms SSJ2 Caulifa. She maintains her ground against God Goku somewhat whereas Caulifa is blatantly outclassed. There is a massive gap between SSJ3 Goku and God Goku. Therefore, Kale should definitely be much stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

On that note, I think these implications make it clear that Goku must have gotten stronger than Caulifa if the character statements made during that fight aren't enough.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

SSJG was transformed back into in BoG when Goku punched Beerus's Ball. Goku could have used it against Kale if he wanted to hold back. Especially when Blue was stated to use up tons of stamina transforming into it.

Only in the movie. In the anime Goku punched it in base and for years we thought it became a manga-only form.

Blue is stated to have to have the finest Ki control, making it the best form to hold back and test opponents. It probably only costs stamina at full power, as fighting to the maximum naturally does. Goku uses Blue against weaker opponents all the time in the tournament, probably so the audience wouldn’t feel cheated out of seeing it.

Blue Goku (vs. Jiren) > God Goku (vs. Caulifa/Kale) > Controlled Kale > Blue Goku (vs. Kale) ~ Blue Vegeta ~ Toppo ~ Berserker Kale >> Super Saiyan 2 Goku (vs. Caulifa/Kale)

Don’t you think Goku could’ve been suppressed against Kale? Not lower than SSJG, but he could’ve been at 50% or 10%. Vegeta basically just tells Goku that SSJ2 won’t cut it, and Toppo never implies he can’t handle Kale, just that she’s above the average fighter.

[ZombieVito]

To add to the above. Someone working on the show confirmed Goku used Blue during the recruitment arc to test out his opponents so we already have precedent of him holding back with said form.

[QuakingStar]

To add to the above. Someone working on the show confirmed Goku used Blue during the recruitment arc to test out his opponents so we already have precedent of him holding back with said form.

Only vs 17 and Krillin though, they were the only two mentioned for that. Though in 17's case he was also holding back.

[Hugo Boss]

Judging from what the gods saw in the exhibition matches, they probably have the idea that Blue is the form in which Goku most comfortably can alter his battle power, like he did against Bergamo and Toppo. So, this is
not to say Blue Kaioken is definitely what they are expecting to see, but I think the simplest approach is assuming they know Goku can be much stronger if he wants to in the Blue form.

I must say though I don’t understand why someone would think Goku is deliberately using 10%, 50% or another arbitrary percentage of Blue against Kale, when nothing is suggesting any of that. Precedence requires a demonstration of similarity. In this case, Kale simply walled Goku’s kamehameha like it was a light breeze, even after he increased its energy. Krillin, 17 or Gohan never did that.

At least, when Goku got blasted by the same attack that Jiren used to defeat Kale, he managed to keep himself in the fight with Kaioken. So, this is probably an indication that in this form Goku is stronger than Kale.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I must say though I don’t understand why someone would think Goku is deliberately using 10%, 50% or another arbitrary percentage of Blue against Kale, when nothing is suggesting any of that. Precedence requires a demonstration of similarity. In this case, Kale simply walled Goku’s kamehameha like it was a light breeze, even after he increased its energy. Krillin, 17 or Gohan never did that.

The problem is that people take any minor feat and want to pass it as something major, when the series isn't trying to give that impression at all. Goku isn't even hurt, and in the very next episode Berserker Kale needed an extra push from Caulifla to beat some low-tier Pride Troopers. She's then completely forgotten for over 10 episodes, and when she's acknowledged again she's losing to SSJG Goku.

If the idea is that Goku slowly ups his level to gauge his opponents, then going from SSJ2 to all of SSJB power is a pretty sudden increase.

[Goku9001]

Blue Goku (vs. Jiren) > God Goku (vs. Caulifa/Kale) > Controlled Kale > Blue Goku (vs. Kale) ~ Blue Vegeta ~ Toppo ~ Berserker Kale >> Super Saiyan 2 Goku (vs. Caulifa/Kale)

Don’t you think Goku could’ve been suppressed against Kale? Not lower than SSJG, but he could’ve been at 50% or 10%. Vegeta basically just tells Goku that SSJ2 won’t cut it, and Toppo never implies he can’t handle Kale, just that she’s above the average fighter.

I think he was since I believe their powers were more or less on par with each other, but that wouldn't account for Blue Goku rising up to become the strongest when he fights Jiren. After all, Jiren used more power against Blue Goku than he did against Kale by the time they fought.

[Miracles]

SSJG was transformed back into in BoG when Goku punched Beerus's Ball. Goku could have used it against Kale if he wanted to hold back. Especially when Blue was stated to use up tons of stamina transforming into it.

Only in the movie. In the anime Goku punched it in base and for years we thought it became a manga-only form.

Blue is stated to have to have the finest Ki control, making it the best form to hold back and test opponents. It probably only costs stamina at full power, as fighting to the maximum naturally does. Goku uses Blue against weaker opponents all the time in the tournament, probably so the audience wouldn’t feel cheated out of seeing it.

It's stated that Goku used Blue sparingly in order to save his energy when needed. Red never left. Hence why Goku was able to transform into it in the anime.

[Miracles]

Please excuse the double post. All I know is taking the story at face value, Goku avoided going Blue as much as possible during the TOP, not to drain energy. Now if Blue is not his strongest form and can hold back in it, why would he need to strategically put out it's power?

[QuakingStar]

Trying to make sense of writing that has holes in it will get you all nowhere.. all we know is Kale is about SSG level at the least, considering she was the only one able to trade blows with him and actually fight him, and also deflect his attacks, and SSB level at the most considering she tanked his Kamehameha and actually started to manhandle him. It's Toei's inconsistent writing is all.

[Goku9001]

It's not really inconsistent Toei writing. It's already confirmed that Goku had become stronger during his battle with Caulifa and Kale in addition to Blue Goku somehow rising to become the strongest by the time he fights Jiren. Plenty of room for growth since his first battle with Kale.

[Miracles]

But wasn't Goku just recovering his strength against Caulifa and Kale instead of growing stronger?

[Hugo Boss]

I must say though I don’t understand why someone would think Goku is deliberately using 10%, 50% or another arbitrary percentage of Blue against Kale, when nothing is suggesting any of that. Precedence requires a demonstration of similarity. In this case, Kale simply walled Goku’s kamehameha like it was a light breeze, even after he increased its energy. Krillin, 17 or Gohan never did that.

The problem is that people take any minor feat and want to pass it as something major, when the series isn't trying to give that impression at all. Goku isn't even hurt, and in the very next episode Berserker Kale needed an extra push from Caulifla to beat some low-tier Pride Troopers. She's then completely forgotten for over 10 episodes, and when she's acknowledged again she's losing to SSJG Goku.

If the idea is that Goku slowly ups his level to gauge his opponents, then going from SSJ2 to all of SSJB power is a pretty sudden increase.

Honestly, why should this instance be labeled as a minor feat or outlier for Kale, though? This approach seems way too subjective. Like, I just can’t unsee how easily she walked through a kamehameha and grabbed Goku like he was a helpless child (in Blue form!).

This doesn’t compare to, for example, Trunks inflicting lucky hits on Goku Black, since Goku Black overwhelms him and everyone else immediately after, so at least you have a counter evidence to disregard that feat. With Kale this doesn’t happen, Jiren is the one who deals with her, not Goku.

Not being bruised can’t be factored either because Kale hadn’t hit Blue before losing self control, she just grabbed his face. And she never fought SSG on her Berserker form either, so this shouldn’t be considered a counter evidence.

Even if somehow Kale’s final form was stronger than Berserker and was losing to SSG, that would only mean that Goku got stronger in Red than he was in Blue before the spirit bomb incident. This isn’t out the realm of possibility, since Goku can fight Kefla more than evenly despite her being as powerful as the spirit bomb and him being tired.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Hm… if Goku did absorb the Genki-Dama, then it’s fair for him to surpass Kale like that.

Jiren stepping in to beat Kale is sort of a feat, too. He only stepped in when he felt needed. But he could have done it to avenge his fellow Trooper, just like he defeated Maji-Kayo to save Dyspo.

With all the talk about saving stamina, I don’t see why Goku would go from SSJ2 (which is below 1% of his total power) to 100% of SSJB’s power. He’s saving his power for Jiren, and he does fight Jiren better than Kale does.

[Goku9001]

I don't agree with Blue Goku being definitively stronger than Kale at that point in time. The writers literally make it a point for Blue Goku to be overwhelmed in one of the most brutal ways possible. If a population were to view that scene in isolation, there's no way in hell you could convince most people that Goku would spank Kale. That shouldn't come until Goku battles Jiren.

But wasn't Goku just recovering his strength against Caulifa and Kale instead of growing stronger?

Goku was lumped with Caulifa when Caulifa was stated to be growing stronger. The same should logically apply to Goku. Otherwise, you kind of dug yourself a hole if you're trying to reconcile Goku's first performance against Kale with his rematch against her.