Unpopular DB opinions

[Zephyr]

It seems like it would've probably been pretty formulaic or standard, which may have been disappointing.

The Cell arc was in many ways pretty standard and formulaic anyway though.

I can't be mad at Torishima and Kondo for pushing Toriyama to change the antagonists up, as it made for a lot of fun twists and turns. But I don't really think we can say it was better than wherever Toriyama was otherwise going to take it with Gero and #19, because we never saw that shake out. We don't know what he had planned, or what he was going to toss in on the fly. So, it's hard to compare something we know to something we can never know.

[Xeogran]

While we're on the Androids arc, I'll bring up my opinion that Super Android 13 was a cool movie. It was full of action with not much plot, but since it's about murderous Androids with the only goal to kill, you shouldn't be in there for the plot anyway.

But, that argument has been used often, so what else can I add?

• The fact that Goku actually gets to fight THESE Androids often gets overlooked, because in the anime he was ill for all of the arc despite being the main target.

• That these Androids had no problem playing unfair (2 vs 1) to succeed, while 17&18 took turns despite sharing the same goal.

• Unlike 17&18 whose fights were often interrupted, Androids 13/14/15 all had fought until their very ends

• Super 13's beatdown was visually enjoyable, there was no Paragus-type character to interrupt his combos with lengthy speeches

• The creative finisher from Goku that isn't just throwing Genki Dama at his opponent + it requiring Piccolo's assistance, much like what happened recently in Super Hero.

• Super 13 inspired Orange Piccolo's debut scene of tanking Gamma 2's punches.

• Charged-Up Goku was most likely at the MOST ANGRIEST he's EVER been.

*drops mic*

[Scsigs]

It seems like it would've probably been pretty formulaic or standard, which may have been disappointing.

The Cell arc was in many ways pretty standard and formulaic anyway though.

I can't be mad at Torishima and Kondo for pushing Toriyama to change the antagonists up, as it made for a lot of fun twists and turns. But I don't really think we can say it was better than wherever Toriyama was otherwise going to take it with Gero and #19, because we never saw that shake out. We don't know what he had planned, or what he was going to toss in on the fly. So, it's hard to compare something we know to something we can never know.

Well, not really. Granted, it may depend on what formula we're talking about here.
My assumption for where he would've taken it is that it might've been smaller in scope than the Frieza stuff, minus the time travel elements being introduced. Maybe Gero had formed a Red Ribbon Army 2.0 or something. While I don't exactly know what Toriyama was cooking up, I can't see it as being as big in scope as what we ultimately got. Which wouldn't have been a bad thing if executed right, but that's just how I see it.

[Zephyr]

It seems like it would've probably been pretty formulaic or standard, which may have been disappointing.

The Cell arc was in many ways pretty standard and formulaic anyway though.

Well, not really. Granted, it may depend on what formula we're talking about here.

Yeah, it definitely depends. The Cell arc as we have it did some things differently compared to the arcs that preceded it, but it did some things similarly as well.

We're introduced to some initial antagonists who don't turn out to be the one fought in the climax. Goku gets taken out of commission for the middle portion of the story. Some initial antagonists join forces with the protagonists to take the climactic antagonist down, before becoming a part of the main cast afterwards. The climactic antagonist transforms through multiple stages. A new Super Saiyan form wins the day.

Not all of these are features of every arc going back to Piccolo Daimao, but they're very common trappings for DB by this point, and especially after this point. I guess the case could be made that the Cell arc itself is what helped make some of this standard fare.

The main difference I can see with the Cell arc is that Goku isn't the one to save the day at the end after coming back.

[ATA]

Them Black Freeza can say the "N word", wearing clothes and jewelry often associated with Black people, and Drankin(drinking) & Smokin is racist as hell. Shows that the Dragon Ball community and by extension the anime community haven't made as much progress and it appears. It reeks of "Everyone wannabe Black but nobody wannabe a Nigga" as well as "Pretending to be Black behind a computer screen". As soon as the form was labeled as "Black Freeza" I knew what was coming. We had "Golden Freeza" but I figure
Zirconium(a Black metal) Freeza is a mouthful to say .

And yes it's a double standard but the Black Freeza jokes are only funny when Black people make them. Especially when it's a "If you know you know" joke. It's the same category as "Piccolo is Black". a lot of Black people gravitated towards Piccolo due to not having a lot of Black animated characters, what exactly makes him "Black" by non Black people besides knowing that Black people like him?

[Cure Dragon 255]

Them Black Freeza can say the "N word", wearing clothes and jewelry often associated with Black people, and Drankin(drinking) & Smokin is racist as hell. Shows that the Dragon Ball community and by extension the anime community haven't made as much progress and it appears. It reeks of "Everyone wannabe Black but nobody wannabe a Nigga" as well as "Pretending to be Black behind a computer screen". As soon as the form was labeled as "Black Freeza" I knew what was coming. We had "Golden Freeza" but I figure
Zirconium(a Black metal) Freeza is a mouthful to say .

And yes it's a double standard but the Black Freeza jokes are only funny when Black people make them. Especially when it's a "If you know you know" joke. It's the same category as "Piccolo is Black". a lot of Black people gravitated towards Piccolo due to not having a lot of Black animated characters, what exactly makes him "Black" by non Black people besides knowing that Black people like him?

Ahhhhh... I cant.

[Jord]

Them Black Freeza can say the "N word", wearing clothes and jewelry often associated with Black people, and Drankin(drinking) & Smokin is racist as hell. Shows that the Dragon Ball community and by extension the anime community haven't made as much progress and it appears. It reeks of "Everyone wannabe Black but nobody wannabe a Nigga" as well as "Pretending to be Black behind a computer screen". As soon as the form was labeled as "Black Freeza" I knew what was coming. We had "Golden Freeza" but I figure
Zirconium(a Black metal) Freeza is a mouthful to say .

And yes it's a double standard but the Black Freeza jokes are only funny when Black people make them. Especially when it's a "If you know you know" joke. It's the same category as "Piccolo is Black". a lot of Black people gravitated towards Piccolo due to not having a lot of Black animated characters, what exactly makes him "Black" by non Black people besides knowing that Black people like him?

Well at least there's General Black, who was probably the most competent guy in the RR. Besides him...there aren't a lot of noteworthy black DB characters.

[ATA]

Them Black Freeza can say the "N word", wearing clothes and jewelry often associated with Black people, and Drankin(drinking) & Smokin is racist as hell. Shows that the Dragon Ball community and by extension the anime community haven't made as much progress and it appears. It reeks of "Everyone wannabe Black but nobody wannabe a Nigga" as well as "Pretending to be Black behind a computer screen". As soon as the form was labeled as "Black Freeza" I knew what was coming. We had "Golden Freeza" but I figure
Zirconium(a Black metal) Freeza is a mouthful to say .

And yes it's a double standard but the Black Freeza jokes are only funny when Black people make them. Especially when it's a "If you know you know" joke. It's the same category as "Piccolo is Black". a lot of Black people gravitated towards Piccolo due to not having a lot of Black animated characters, what exactly makes him "Black" by non Black people besides knowing that Black people like him?

Well at least there's General Black, who was probably the most competent guy in the RR. Besides him...there aren't a lot of noteworthy black DB characters.

To be honest. Before the globalization of anime I didn't expect anime to have Black people at all because Japan is known largely as a homogenous country. So I don't really care about DB lack of Black characters. Compared to Western Cartoons where it only gotten better in the last decade or so. I do give Anime and manga they credit as they have done massive improvements in having diversity in them.

Previous quote

Ahhhhh... I cant.

With all due respect. What are you saying? I don't mind if people disagree with my opinion. I'm open minded and just because we disagree doesn't mean I can't see where other people are coming from. I also don't care if people agree with my opinion. As just because we agree doesn't mean we're a hive mind. What "can't" you do?

[sunsetshimmer]

This track from old PS1 DBZ game, literally called "Sign ~Omen~" would've actually worked for UI Sign/Omen and would be better than actual UI theme we got as it got that calm feeling fitting what UI was supposed to be to begin with

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixw6HOuHlwo

[WittyUsername]

At this point, I’m inclined to say that I think everything concerning Zamasu would’ve been more interesting if they completely scrapped the time travel elements of his story, and went all in focusing on the relationship between Gods and mortals.

[SupremeKai25]

At this point, I’m inclined to say that I think everything concerning Zamasu would’ve been more interesting if they completely scrapped the time travel elements of his story, and went all in focusing on the relationship between Gods and mortals.

I disagree, time travel is an integral part of Zamasu's motivation. The arc reveals that time travel is a sin that defies God laws, as a result Trunks is a sinner and a criminal. He caused reality itself to split so that he could save one tiny backwater planet. From the perspective of the Gods, who do not care about single planets, but about the wider universe, this is an unforgivable affront. This motivation is unique, this motivation is original, this motivation reminds the viewer that the Gods operate on a higher level than mortals. The God Beerus didn't care about Trunks' motivation for using time travel, because from his Divine perspective, it was better to sacrifice Earth than create whole parallel reality.

So this motivation not only is unique to Zamasu amongst the villains, but it also connects DBS to DBZ, as the writers stated that the alliance between two Zamasu exists because of Trunks' time travel from DBZ (Trunks in DBZ save Goku's life from heart virus; if Goku died like he was supposed to, he would never challenge Zamasu and Goku Black wouldn't exist). Trunks in DBZ was too arrogant, he abused time travel and nothing happened to him, he needed to be punished for his constant abuse of that time machine. Having Trunks' abuse of time travel be the direct cause for the creation of the greatest and most powerful villain in Trunks' timeline is perfect.

On top of this, if there was no time travel, then there would not be the Black and Zamasu duo, which was easily the best villainous duo in franchise. The only villainous duo that worked perfectly together and was perfectly in synch with one another, and a villainous duo that did not backstab one other (unlike the Saiyans or Androids).

[Noah]

Story and world building is very important to me, so when Super suddenly started to ignore or retcon stuff, like ignoring Trunks creating different timelines when he time traveled, that's one of main reasons i don't enjoy "modern" Dragon Ball at all...

Zamasu literally brings up Trunks' time-split actions from DBZ as one of the main motivations for his plan of genocide and the writers even used flashbacks to the Original series while Zamasu was stating his motive. Gowasu showed Zamasu the Time rings (=new timelines) created by Trunks and Cell in the Original series, which is when Zamasu started hating mortals for time travel. Super most certainly did not ignore this plot point as it is one of the key plot points of Future Trunks saga and Zamasu's motivation.

Well, what about Goku, Vegeta and Trunks retreating to the present twice using the Time Machine, how their travels didn't result in creating other timelines?

This track from old PS1 DBZ game, literally called "Sign ~Omen~" would've actually worked for UI Sign/Omen and would be better than actual UI theme we got as it got that calm feeling fitting what UI was supposed to be to begin with

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixw6HOuHlwo

Wow, that's a nice catch. I never played this game, but that would fit a lot, but still I think Ultimate Battle is more epic.

[TobyS]

Story and world building is very important to me, so when Super suddenly started to ignore or retcon stuff, like ignoring Trunks creating different timelines when he time traveled, that's one of main reasons i don't enjoy "modern" Dragon Ball at all...

Zamasu literally brings up Trunks' time-split actions from DBZ as one of the main motivations for his plan of genocide and the writers even used flashbacks to the Original series while Zamasu was stating his motive. Gowasu showed Zamasu the Time rings (=new timelines) created by Trunks and Cell in the Original series, which is when Zamasu started hating mortals for time travel. Super most certainly did not ignore this plot point as it is one of the key plot points of Future Trunks saga and Zamasu's motivation.

Well, what about Goku, Vegeta and Trunks retreating to the present twice using the Time Machine, how their travels didn't result in creating other timelines?

What are you asking?
Once the timelines are linked travelling back and forth doesn't create additional timelines.
Even travelling to new timelines is not an immediate split. It's been revealed time travel in DB requires you to create a significantly large paradox to split the timeline. That's why kiing Zamas split one but not trunks coming back and warning them about zamas did.

Yeah zamas did see the time travel as another excuse to wipe out mortals. But the coward mainly saw it as an opportunity to run to the one timeline/universe where there was no God of destruction or dragon team to stop him. He could then abuse trunks desire to protect civilians to psudeo zenkai himself back to gokus original power level or beyond.

[sunsetshimmer]

Wow, that's a nice catch. I never played this game, but that would fit a lot, but still I think Ultimate Battle is more epic.

And there's another PS1 DBZ game called "Ultimate Battle 22", what a coincidence. We have PS1 game with OST called like UI and another game called like OST for UI

[King Bogo]

Dr. Frappe a.k.a. Dr. Flappe should've been made cannon during the Cell saga

[90sDBZ]

While we're on the Androids arc, I'll bring up my opinion that Super Android 13 was a cool movie. It was full of action with not much plot, but since it's about murderous Androids with the only goal to kill, you shouldn't be in there for the plot anyway.

But, that argument has been used often, so what else can I add?

• The fact that Goku actually gets to fight THESE Androids often gets overlooked, because in the anime he was ill for all of the arc despite being the main target.

• That these Androids had no problem playing unfair (2 vs 1) to succeed, while 17&18 took turns despite sharing the same goal.

• Unlike 17&18 whose fights were often interrupted, Androids 13/14/15 all had fought until their very ends

• Super 13's beatdown was visually enjoyable, there was no Paragus-type character to interrupt his combos with lengthy speeches

• The creative finisher from Goku that isn't just throwing Genki Dama at his opponent + it requiring Piccolo's assistance, much like what happened recently in Super Hero.

• Super 13 inspired Orange Piccolo's debut scene of tanking Gamma 2's punches.

• Charged-Up Goku was most likely at the MOST ANGRIEST he's EVER been.

*drops mic*

I agree with all of this. Movie 7 is a really fun watch that never drags, and I don't get the dislike people have for it.

It knows exactly what it is, which is a short but sweet showcase of the characters fighting with minimal plot. In that sense it's the least apologetic of the Z movies.

The designs of the 3 androids are all cool looking, and 14 and 15 showing up first reminds me of other villainous pairs like Vegeta and Nappa. Also the scene were you first see 13 standing in the shadows in Gero's lab is eerie and adds tension.

I also find it interesting that we know these androids technically existed in the main series at one point, as Gero obviously made other Androids between 8 and 16. It was an interesting choice by Toriyama to leave most of those other Androids shrouded in mystery. Like he could have just called Androids 16-19 Androids 9-13 instead.

Also Kikuchi's music is great in this particular movie. The Spirit Bomb/Genki Dama theme is awesome.

And Piccolo's entrance here might be his best in any movie. He literally burrows underground for no other reason than to make a badass entrance.

[GhostEmperorX]

Also Kikuchi's music is great in this particular movie. The Spirit Bomb/Genki Dama theme is awesome.

Personally I also liked the main theme for Android 13 and its variations, from when he was seen in Gero's underground lab till becoming Super Android 13.
And also the actual JP Vegeta theme, plus the fact that it made its debut here, getting two extra variations/quotes besides the first one (which is probably to make up for his long absence from the films relative to the series proper until his Movie 6 appearance where he didn't have any moment a theme debut would have worked with).

Both themes could have seen more use within the series.

[Majin Buu]

I agree with all of this. Movie 7 is a really fun watch that never drags, and I don't get the dislike people have for it.

You answered your own question here:

It knows exactly what it is, which is a short but sweet showcase of the characters fighting with minimal plot.

I personally don't hate it (it was the first movie I saw in Japanese so there's some nostalgia there), but for those that do, they hate it for more or less that exact reason: It's just a fight fest with virtually nothing happening on the storytelling front.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I think it would be awesome to see DB again on TV. Even if its the twilight of Television and there are even rumors Disney wants to get rid of ALL their TV channel including ABC (!!!) but I would love to see it. I can see it in Paraguay where Dragon Ball is on two major channels, but I would love to see it for the USA.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I think it would be awesome to see DB again on TV. Even if its the twilight of Television and there are even rumors Disney wants to get rid of ALL their TV channel including ABC (!!!) but I would love to see it. I can see it in Paraguay where Dragon Ball is on two major channels, but I would love to see it for the USA.