Non-thread-worthy discussions

[MasenkoHA]

. And it's the manga responsible for changing the date of planet Vegeta's destruction as well as Goku's arrival on Earth just because it wants to. I still want to see a little bit more of Tights, if they don't mind.

Did it though? Maybe I'm missing something but it was always said planet Vegeta was destroyed 20 years before Raditz arrived. And since Goku is 23 at the start of the Saiyan arc.. and 3 in Dragon Ball Minus, idk the math checks out.

Like, the only real change seems to be going from assuming characters were rounding down to it being a more exact number

[Grimlock]

Still not a single post celebrating Jaco, the Galactic Patrolman, not even on Twitter. Did people forget it exists?

Did it though?

Yes, it did. Vegeta's destruction and Goku's arrival on Earth were well known to have taken place in AGE 737. Jaco, the Galactic Patrolman changed both to AGE 739.

Maybe I'm missing something but it was always said planet Vegeta was destroyed 20 years before Raditz arrived.

No, I may be the one missing something (unlikely, considering my great interest in this subject, but who knows) as I've never seen such statement. Mind to provide a source?

And since Goku is 23 at the start of the Saiyan arc.

He's twenty-four years old (AGE 737 + 24 = AGE 761). Or he's twenty-five, if you take into consideration the three years in the incubator and place Goku's birth year in AGE 736.

[QuakingStar]

. And it's the manga responsible for changing the date of planet Vegeta's destruction as well as Goku's arrival on Earth just because it wants to. I still want to see a little bit more of Tights, if they don't mind.

Did it though? Maybe I'm missing something but it was always said planet Vegeta was destroyed 20 years before Raditz arrived. And since Goku is 23 at the start of the Saiyan arc.. and 3 in Dragon Ball Minus, idk the math checks out.

Like, the only real change seems to be going from assuming characters were rounding down to it being a more exact number

The DBS Manga goes on to stick with the Jaco timeline, of Goku actually being 3 when he is released from his incubator and the Saiyan's destruction in 739 with Beerus going to sleep that same year. Meaning Goku is born in age 735-736, Gine also stated something along the lines of Goku being small for his age or something.

[ZeroNeonix]

I've been thinking. When Goku died of the heart virus in the future timeline, how come they didn't use the Dragon Balls to wish him back to life? I mean, sure. The Earth Dragon Balls were already used to bring him back to life, and back then, the balls didn't have unlimited resurrections; just one per person. But what about the Namekian Dragon Balls? Couldn't they have gone to New Namek for a favor? Why was Bulma working on a time machine when she could just take a space ship to get their best warrior back?

[Grimlock]

I saw the post, MasenkoHA. I was very sleepy at the time so I wouldn't be able to answer. I will respond anyway because it's best to clear all the confusion anyone might still have about it.

• You asked how was it well known the AGE 737 date:

The Daizenshuu/Chozenshuu guidebooks, the Xenoverse games and the Dragon Ball SSSS website (Herms' translation). Pretty much all official timeline we have places Goku's birth and his arrival on Earth in AGE 737.

• I understood what you were getting wrong:

You think Goku meeting Bulma and the 21st tournament both take place in the same year, they do not. The former takes place in AGE 749, while the latter takes place in AGE 750. From the moment Goku met Bulma until the beginning of the 21st tournament, there's a timeskip of eight months. At some point during this timeskip, the year changed.

AGE 750 is the year Goku turns thirteen years old. It is stated that Goku is twelve years old during the tournament, so we must assume the tournament takes place before his birthday. He is twelve, but he will turn thirteen at some point after the tournament in that very same year.

Three years later, AGE 753, is the year the 22nd tournament takes place, 13 + 3 = 16. And after three more years, AGE 756, the 23rd tournament happens, 16 + 3 = 19. Then comes the five-year timeskip, 19 + 5 = 24.

So what you were getting wrong is that you were forgetting to take into consideration that initial timeskip between Goku meeting Bulma and the tournament, and that the year changes in between those events. It goes without saying that AGE 750 is the official year for the 21st tournament.

I've been thinking. When Goku died of the heart virus in the future timeline, how come they didn't use the Dragon Balls to wish him back to life?

He died of natural causes, which I think the Namekuseijins Dragon Balls also can't do it, bring back someone who died of natural causes.

[Koitsukai]

I saw the post, MasenkoHA. I was very sleepy at the time so I wouldn't be able to answer. I will respond anyway because it's best to clear all the confusion anyone might still have about it.

• You asked how was it well known the AGE 737 date:

The Daizenshuu/Chozenshuu guidebooks, the Xenoverse games and the Dragon Ball SSSS website (Herms' translation). Pretty much all official timeline we have places Goku's birth and his arrival on Earth in AGE 737.

Isn't this indicative that pretty much all ancillary material has no real meaning besides the one we choose to give to it? I mean, none of those sources has Toriyama behind them, so as far as the author is concerned Goku's YOB was never addressed, so he didn't actually change anything, at least nothing the author had come up with himself. From his POV he only told us something we didn't know about.
It also doesn't seem to be something the author gives much thought or perhaps even know about, otherwise he would've just taken that into account.

I've been thinking. When Goku died of the heart virus in the future timeline, how come they didn't use the Dragon Balls to wish him back to life?

He died of natural causes, which I think the Namekuseijins Dragon Balls also can't do it, bring back someone who died of natural causes.

Saichoro was resurrected for a while due to his life having been shortened due to the circumnstances on Namek. Now, I'd argue Goku's COD was nowhere near as "natural" as Saichoro's. However, if he had been resurrected, wouldn't Goku come back still infected with the virus, dooming him to die eventually for the same reason as before?

[ZeroNeonix]

"I wish Goku back to life."

"Your wish has been granted."

"I wish for Goku to have natural immunity to all known diseases."

"It is done."

"I wish for a fresh pair of clothes. I'm tired of wearing these torn up, dirty clothes."

"Umm... Okay. Wish granted."

[Grimlock]

Isn't this indicative that pretty much all ancillary material has no real meaning besides the one we choose to give to it?

I'm afraid I don't understand the question. I don't think we (can) choose to give meaning to anything. I take ancillary material information at face value and the only thing I do is analyze it to see whether I can take it into consideration or not, no "meaning" attached.

It also doesn't seem to be something the author gives much thought or perhaps even know about, otherwise he would've just taken that into account.

He did take it into account. Why do you think you see "41 years ago" and later "AGE 737" in Dragon Ball Super Broly? Someone may have brought up the timeline during production and everyone just went on with it. At the very least Toriyama supervised the conversation, so he was aware of it. One way or another, directly or indirectly, he did take it into consideration. And because he doesn't give much thought and nobody did math correctly, we ended up with erroneous information on our screen. But it's clear that the known timeline was taken into consideration.

And then there's Toyotaro and his "40 years ago" for Granolah saga. Again the math is off but we can clearly see that the intention is to go for what is known to everyone.

However, if he had been resurrected, wouldn't Goku come back still infected with the virus, dooming him to die eventually for the same reason as before?

I think so. I guess they would have to use the second wish to remove his illness.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Isn't this indicative that pretty much all ancillary material has no real meaning besides the one we choose to give to it?

I'm afraid I don't understand the question. I don't think we (can) choose to give meaning to anything. I take ancillary material information at face value and the only thing I do is analyze it to see whether I can take it into consideration or not, no "meaning" attached.

It also doesn't seem to be something the author gives much thought or perhaps even know about, otherwise he would've just taken that into account.

He did take it into account. Why do you think you see "41 years ago" and later "AGE 737" in Dragon Ball Super Broly? Someone may have brought up the timeline during production and everyone just went on with it. At the very least Toriyama supervised the conversation, so he was aware of it. One way or another, directly or indirectly, he did take it into consideration. And because he doesn't give much thought and nobody did math correctly, we ended up with erroneous information on our screen. But it's clear that the known timeline was taken into consideration.

And then there's Toyotaro and his "40 years ago" for Granolah saga. Again the math is off but we can clearly see that the intention is to go for what is known to everyone.

However, if he had been resurrected, wouldn't Goku come back still infected with the virus, dooming him to die eventually for the same reason as before?

I think so. I guess they would have to use the second wish to remove his illness.

We told you, again and again, that the manga says, again and again, it cant cure natural death and the disease counts as that. You are seeing plotholes and stuff where there arent any out of a misguided inner logic that only makes sense to you. Sorry for the snippy tone but my post got deleted and my tooth hurts so any rudeness comes from that. Sorry.

[Grimlock]

Sick, sickness, illness, disease, death, cure. As everyone can see, I have never, ever engaged in a conversation about "curing natural death and disease". Yet you say "we told you again and again, that the manga says, again and again" and then proceed to blabber more utter bullshit and nonsense out of nowhere, for no reason whatsoever, despite nothing of what you say being true.

Koitsukai made a question that I have never even thought about before and I gave them an answer out of the very first thing that came to mind, without thinking too much. I even used the words "think" and "guess", because I'm not sure, I did not make a clear statement. My answer to their question is literally my very first time addressing this subject on this forum or otherwise.

I would ask you to refrain from submitting further replies to me without thinking at least thrice, and if you do, and it turns out to be an accusatory post, do so while providing unquestionable evidences to back up all your claims. Otherwise you would just be embarrassing yourself and I will be reporting you (frankly I'm amazed how the hell you lasted this long, given your behavior and conduct, especially recently). Do not waste your time, but much more importantly, do not waste my time.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I see. You are right. Sorry. I apologize. Its no excuse, but the cold and my aching tooth, plus the post getting deleted and having to rewrite from scratch DID NOT help me read things patiently and speak rationally. Sorry.

[super michael]

I just remembered something, I remember reading about how one mind can affect one power level in Dragon Ball. Like if one has doubts or scared, it can weaken one power level.

Are there quotes about that or something similar? I am going by memory, that is the most I can remember.

[Zephyr]

I just remembered something, I remember reading about how one mind can affect one power level in Dragon Ball. Like if one has doubts or scared, it can weaken one power level.

Are there quotes about that or something similar? I am going by memory, that is the most I can remember.

You might be thinking of this interview from the Super Exciting Guide:

In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki]. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki.

Energy, Courage, and Right-Mindedness — The word “energy” [genki] is well-known, but if one asks if you do not have energy if you have even one sickness [byōki], it is difficult to come up with an answer. There are people who are healthy yet do not have any energy, and there are people who are sick, yet full of energy. Plus, even among people who have roughly the same power, for example, there were people who gritted their teeth and stood their ground when Demon King Piccolo attacked them, yet there were also people who trembled and fled. Thinking about it this way, perhaps you will understand that a variety of different “ki” are indispensable in battle. In the world of Chinese martial arts, exemplified by T’ai-chi Ch’uan, ki training and control is given great importance.

In Dragon Ball, the dark mage Bobbidi invented a machine that measures and absorbs ki, but current science cannot measure ki levels or store it anywhere. However, when someone cheers you on, you can “receive energy and courage [yūki]” from them. “Ki” is something that cannot be seen with the eyes, yet it is there.

[SupremeKai25]

I just remembered something, I remember reading about how one mind can affect one power level in Dragon Ball. Like if one has doubts or scared, it can weaken one power level.

Are there quotes about that or something similar? I am going by memory, that is the most I can remember.

You might be thinking of this interview from the Super Exciting Guide:

In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki]. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki.

We are seeing this first-hand in recent Super arcs, where it is stressed that the bodies of the MCs Goku and Vegeta have reached their physical peak. The only evolution they have left is through mastering and controlling their Ki (which is also what made their Super antagonists so fearsome).

It is therefore not a surprise that Super created new forms that are centred around mastery of attributes like speed and stamina, technique, skill; not brute strength.

This was all planned from the very beginning of Super and this old interview just confirms it.

[Koitsukai]

There are several examples in-universe prior to DBS, too.

Gohan was seen, more than once, shitscared with a BP of like 0, gets mad and jumps to the thousands. His rage and confidence wear off and his power returns back to normal.
Nappa's head was all over the place, he clear his mind and starts fighting evenly with Goku.
Even though SS Gohan was said to be stronger than SS Goku, his lack of interest in fighting Cell prevailed and his performance was extremely bad.
The best example is the beam clash vs SP Cell. After he lost an arm, he was sure the fight was lost and could barely stand his ground, after the pep talk from Goku, his power was enough to obliterate Cell, and having one less limb was just an afterthought.

There are probably more examples where a whiny character is on the losing end but just a mindset reboot tilts the scale in their favour, or not because they never got over that fear.

[QuakingStar]

Idk if the Gohan examples can be used for that, his potential is bottomless and via his rage and can tap into it over and over. But Jiren would be the best example in the anime at least, he needed a pep talk from Toppo to bring back out his full power.

[super michael]

I just remembered something, I remember reading about how one mind can affect one power level in Dragon Ball. Like if one has doubts or scared, it can weaken one power level.

Are there quotes about that or something similar? I am going by memory, that is the most I can remember.

You might be thinking of this interview from the Super Exciting Guide:

In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki]. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki.

Energy, Courage, and Right-Mindedness — The word “energy” [genki] is well-known, but if one asks if you do not have energy if you have even one sickness [byōki], it is difficult to come up with an answer. There are people who are healthy yet do not have any energy, and there are people who are sick, yet full of energy. Plus, even among people who have roughly the same power, for example, there were people who gritted their teeth and stood their ground when Demon King Piccolo attacked them, yet there were also people who trembled and fled. Thinking about it this way, perhaps you will understand that a variety of different “ki” are indispensable in battle. In the world of Chinese martial arts, exemplified by T’ai-chi Ch’uan, ki training and control is given great importance.

In Dragon Ball, the dark mage Bobbidi invented a machine that measures and absorbs ki, but current science cannot measure ki levels or store it anywhere. However, when someone cheers you on, you can “receive energy and courage [yūki]” from them. “Ki” is something that cannot be seen with the eyes, yet it is there.

Yes that is what I was remembering. Thanks for posting the link and the quotes.

[The Monkey King]

Just some power level musings:

Why is it such a huge debate as to whether or not Gohan was a SSJ2 against Dabra when he clearly wasn't in the manga? He has the aura of a normal SSJ throughout the whole fight with no lightning at all, Toriyama never forgot to draw that for SSJ2 characters.

Also I find it odd that in BoG Beerus suggests Freeza > Base saiyans when in the Buu Saga and RoF it's suggested that Base saiyans > Piccolo

[Cure Dragon 255]

I heard that Tree of Might had "The most elaborate and best looking Dub Title Screen. The one with the most effort put to it."

Well I finally saw it today and... yeah. It's obvious Funimation was a horrible licensee choice. But hey, none of what was said was contradicted. They all just suck really hard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kdnoo0gcQZk

Thank goodness for Pioneer.

[ZeroNeonix]

Just some power level musings:

Why is it such a huge debate as to whether or not Gohan was a SSJ2 against Dabra when he clearly wasn't in the manga? He has the aura of a normal SSJ throughout the whole fight with no lightning at all, Toriyama never forgot to draw that for SSJ2 characters.

Also I find it odd that in BoG Beerus suggests Freeza > Base saiyans when in the Buu Saga and RoF it's suggested that Base saiyans > Piccolo

Didn't Toriyama famously admit he forgot he already made a Super Saiyan 2 when he was designing Super Saiyan 3? Allegedly, Super Saiyan 3 was going to be called Super Saiyan 2, until someone reminded him of Gohan's transformation in the Cell arc.

Also, why would Gohan use SS1 against Dabura, when he showed he was capable of going SS2 in the tournament prior? Dabura's power was compared to Cell's, so it would have been foolish to hold back. Seems like plot hole, unless I'm misremembering things.

I always hated how similar SS1 and SS2 looked. For young Gohan, there was a clear difference, but when he gets older? Looks basically the same. Goku and Vegeta? They look a little sharper, maybe. Not always apparent what form they're using.