Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

In the film at least, it seems to follow the anime's overall line of logic of base Gohan and Piccolo being comparable, themselves comparable to base Goku and Vegeta who are far and away above Super Saiyan Trunks and Goten.

I don't think Goku and Vegeta got 50x stronger from the Boo arc to Superhero in their base forms to become stronger than the SS kids. They didn't absorb SSG in the manga.

Base Goku was already far stronger than Shin before the ToP even started in the manga.

[Miracles]

Shin was going to get blown away by SSJ Goku in the Buu saga. It's obvious after all the gains [especially in the Moro arc] Base Goku would smoke Shin too. Easily 50X stronger in base mode from Buu arc till now.

[shadd21]

Why is Beerus nervous of Broly in the Manga version of Super Hero?

[Miracles]

Why is Beerus nervous of Broly in the Manga version of Super Hero?

You mean angry that Broly is just at his home. Since he said his abode ain't a hotel.

[TobyS]

In the film at least, it seems to follow the anime's overall line of logic of base Gohan and Piccolo being comparable, themselves comparable to base Goku and Vegeta who are far and away above Super Saiyan Trunks and Goten.

I don't think Goku and Vegeta got 50x stronger from the Boo arc to Superhero in their base forms to become stronger than the SS kids. They didn't absorb SSG in the manga.

Base Goku was already far stronger than Shin before the ToP even started in the manga.

Shin getting owned and falling on his face is a gag more than a serious powerscaling statement. Maybe he has better hearing or wasn't standing as well braced at the time.

With god not being absorbed into base in the manga base Goku doesnt have an opportunity to get 50x stronger.

When they enter the rosat vegeta already says they pretty much peaked. In the zamasu arc he doesn't train for power just the mafuuba.

It's not untill moro and meerus training in another time chamber can we make the case he's made good gains in addition to perfecting ui.

[ZombieVito]

I don't think Goku and Vegeta got 50x stronger from the Boo arc to Superhero in their base forms to become stronger than the SS kids. They didn't absorb SSG in the manga.

Base Goku was already far stronger than Shin before the ToP even started in the manga.

Shin getting owned and falling on his face is a gag more than a serious powerscaling statement. Maybe he has better hearing or wasn't standing as well braced at the time.

With god not being absorbed into base in the manga base Goku doesnt have an opportunity to get 50x stronger.

When they enter the rosat vegeta already says they pretty much peaked. In the zamasu arc he doesn't train for power just the mafuuba.

It's not untill moro and meerus training in another time chamber can we make the case he's made good gains in addition to perfecting ui.

I see no indication of a gag and Whis is very clear on the matter. Anyone on the Kaioshins level will faint and base Goku didn't so he's stronger. It's that simple.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah the scene is done in a very straightforward way. Shin fainting may be funny, but then we’re just laughing at this guy because he’s pitifully weak. It’s not a nonsense gag moment because the writers always saw Kaioshin as a wimp.

[TobyS]

There's other feats and scaling that contradicts it. We know zamasu is ss2 tier and we know shin was around ss1. And that ss2 is 100x base so Goku can't have got over 50x stronger than the buu saga or he'd have wrecked trunks and zamas more than he did.

Maybe it effects god ki users/effects them more and shins level was being compared to GoDs not goku.

The anime has insane scaling but the manga hasn't, there's no reason for goku to have got over 50x stronger between bog and pre top when he has little to no growth between bog and U6 in the rosat we are supposed to believe he got 50x stronger between u6 and top without the rosat? Nah, not buying it.

[ZombieVito]

There's other feats and scaling that contradicts it. We know zamasu is ss2 tier and we know shin was around ss1. And that ss2 is 100x base so Goku can't have got over 50x stronger than the buu saga or he'd have wrecked trunks and zamas more than he did.

Maybe it effects god ki users/effects them more and shins level was being compared to GoDs not goku.

The anime has insane scaling but the manga hasn't, there's no reason for goku to have got over 50x stronger between bog and pre top when he has little to no growth between bog and U6 in the rosat we are supposed to believe he got 50x stronger between u6 and top without the rosat? Nah, not buying it.

We don't even see the RoF arc in the manga but knowing Toyo, it happened the same way as the movie so base Goku fought FF Freeza.

Also, Zamasu is current SS2 tier not Boo arc SS2.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Also, Super Saiyan Vegeta was beating down Super Saiyan Goku Black in that story arc in the manga.

Given the lack of any real special mention that would point to it being a mutated form compared to Future Trunks's own SS2 form in the manga, we can only assume it's his normal Super Saiyan form. And we know that, in the same forms, Goku and Vegeta are equal across all mediums.

[ZombieVito]

Also, Super Saiyan Vegeta was beating down Super Saiyan Goku Black in that story arc in the manga.

Given the lack of any real special mention that would point to it being a mutated form compared to Future Trunks's own SS2 form in the manga, we can only assume it's his normal Super Saiyan form. And we know that, in the same forms, Goku and Vegeta are equal across all mediums.

It has to be his mutated SS2 form. Nothing else makes sense in that fight otherwise.

[QuakingStar]

Also, Super Saiyan Vegeta was beating down Super Saiyan Goku Black in that story arc in the manga.

Given the lack of any real special mention that would point to it being a mutated form compared to Future Trunks's own SS2 form in the manga, we can only assume it's his normal Super Saiyan form. And we know that, in the same forms, Goku and Vegeta are equal across all mediums.

It has to be his mutated SS2 form. Nothing else makes sense in that fight otherwise.

It is, the constant forehead veins prove that.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Also, Super Saiyan Vegeta was beating down Super Saiyan Goku Black in that story arc in the manga.

Given the lack of any real special mention that would point to it being a mutated form compared to Future Trunks's own SS2 form in the manga, we can only assume it's his normal Super Saiyan form. And we know that, in the same forms, Goku and Vegeta are equal across all mediums.

It has to be his mutated SS2 form. Nothing else makes sense in that fight otherwise.

OR.... Super Saiyan Vegeta is just that strong, and Goku is as well, cementing Goku and Vegeta in their base forms as above the likes of Shin and Cell by this point in the timeline even in the manga.

After all, Goku needs to be taking on Uub in just a few short years.

[Hugo Boss]

Anyone on the Kaioshins level will faint and base Goku didn't so he's stronger. It's that simple.

It’s not only that. It’s implied anyone that isn’t close to the level of a God of Destruction, such as the Kaioshins, would faint. Goku didn’t faint because he is very close to the Gods of Destruction in the power hierarchy, not because his base form is stronger than Kaioshins. Unless you think Base Goku is already close to the level of Gods of Destruction, which I don’t believe is the case here.

[ZombieVito]

OR.... Super Saiyan Vegeta is just that strong, and Goku is as well, cementing Goku and Vegeta in their base forms as above the likes of Shin and Cell by this point in the timeline even in the manga.

After all, Goku needs to be taking on Uub in just a few short years.

But base Black easily defeated SS2 Trunks. The same Trunks that Goku needed SS2 to match.

It just doesn't work.

Trunks|Goku|Vegeta: 1
SS2: 100

Goku Black: 200
SS: 10,000

And this is assuming Trunks didn't use his enhanced SS2 form against him. If he did then the gap is even larger.

[Koitsukai]

But we do know Vegeta was using SS2. His aura has sparks, that's the give away. Toyo doesn't draw sparks for regular SS Vegeta.
We can only assume the limit breaking power up in BoG was permanent.

I wonder if that power up could be the SS route to a potential unlock of sorts.

[Skar]

There's other feats and scaling that contradicts it. We know zamasu is ss2 tier and we know shin was around ss1. And that ss2 is 100x base so Goku can't have got over 50x stronger than the buu saga or he'd have wrecked trunks and zamas more than he did.

Maybe it effects god ki users/effects them more and shins level was being compared to GoDs not goku.

The anime has insane scaling but the manga hasn't, there's no reason for goku to have got over 50x stronger between bog and pre top when he has little to no growth between bog and U6 in the rosat we are supposed to believe he got 50x stronger between u6 and top without the rosat? Nah, not buying it.

Goku vs Trunks is another one since it was similar in the manga and anime so likely from Toriyama. I recall the only difference was which form Goku needed to defeat Trunks since Trunks already had his enhanced SSJ2 in the manga. It was pointed out before here that an almost identical line for the Buu saga SSJ2s was used for when Trunks first revealed SSJ2.

From the storytelling perspective, it seems unlikely to recycle the same line but intend for a different and less forward meaning. Buu saga Goku and Vegeta were only confirmed to have surpassed Cell Games Gohan after showing SSJ2 implying it wasn't clear from base and SSJ1. They could've easily had Trunks powerup in base and SSJ1 to have Goku use that line instead of after Trunks went SSJ2. I don't think we'll ever get a clear answer unless something in one of the movies confirms it since those are mostly from one writer.

[Alkiser]

I don't think Goku and Vegeta got 50x stronger from the Boo arc to Superhero in their base forms to become stronger than the SS kids. They didn't absorb SSG in the manga.

Base Goku was already far stronger than Shin before the ToP even started in the manga.

Shin getting owned and falling on his face is a gag more than a serious powerscaling statement. Maybe he has better hearing or wasn't standing as well braced at the time.

With god not being absorbed into base in the manga base Goku doesnt have an opportunity to get 50x stronger.

When they enter the rosat vegeta already says they pretty much peaked. In the zamasu arc he doesn't train for power just the mafuuba.

It's not untill moro and meerus training in another time chamber can we make the case he's made good gains in addition to perfecting ui.

Hey pssst and did you know that Fukkatsu no F and the state Saiyan beyond God is also part of manga continuity?

[Hugo Boss]

Hey pssst and did you know that Fukkatsu no F and the state Saiyan beyond God is also part of manga continuity?

Ressurrection of F was skipped in the manga continuity. You can verify between chapters #4 and #5 that it has no mention of the “Saiyan Beyond God” state that is exclusive to the movie and anime, and it couldn’t have since in Champa Arc Goku and Vegeta are still using Super Saiyan forms below SSG. The only form from the movie that carried on was Super Saiyan Blue.

[Alkiser]

Hey pssst and did you know that Fukkatsu no F and the state Saiyan beyond God is also part of manga continuity?

Ressurrection of F was skipped in the manga continuity. You can verify between chapters #4 and #5 that it has no mention of the “Saiyan Beyond God” state that is exclusive to the movie and anime, and it couldn’t have since in Champa Arc Goku and Vegeta are still using Super Saiyan forms below SSG. The only form from the movie that carried on was Super Saiyan Blue.

The manga directly refers you to watch the movie, the events of ROF are directly mentioned in the U6 saga and in the universe survival saga when Shin explains to Elder Kaioshin what happened to Frieza.