How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

[ATA]

In the manga I more or less have him as strong as Ultimate/Mystic Gohan before he transforms. That leaves only Buutenks and Buuhan stronger than him. Super Saiyan made him strong enough to dominate Buu.

However I will entertain he's as strong as Buutenks which only leads to Buuhan being stronger than base Vegetto.

In the anime Base Vegetto's a freak of nature and SSJ makes him more of a freak lmao

[Mireya]

According to my numbers, he'd be in-between Boo-Gotenks and Boo-Gohan.

[Bloodthroe]

Base Vegito isn't as strong as the anime filler would lead you to believe. My logic goes off of the fact that other characters do not seem to get a similar multiplier from fusing.

Kibitokai was still considered useless in the fight against Bui, even though Supreme Kai was about as strong as a FPSSJ by himself. Merged Zamasu was also still weak enough to have been beaten by Goku and Vegeta if it weren't for his immortality wish.

Now the multiplier can be different depending on participants, and I'm sure it is, but the disparity is too much. Other fusions seem to only get a 2x boost on top of adding their base power levels.

[Psajdak]

Base Vegetto is exactly as strong as in anime.

[PowerLevelGuy]

It's quite possible for Base Vegetto to be his anime strength even in the manga. Fusion is an exponential increase, so that wild increase has to start somewhere.

Base Vegetto > Blue Goku/Vegeta

and

SSJG Goku > SSJ3 Vegetto

Right there we prove that fusion is exponential. Base Vegetto was nothing to Ritual SSJ God and now he's even beyond Blue. Perhaps you can make the argument that Ritual God is way stronger, but as of now, I think this proves Fusion is completely wild and unpredictable.

It's certainly possible for Base Vegetto to be ridiculously strong based on what we've learned from Super.

[Beasto]

Ultimate Gohan's level at best.

[Civic]

We don't know.

[TobyS]

At minimum ss2 vegeta, possibly ss3 goku.

But he needed to transform, so weaker than gohan boo is all we know.

[Alkiser]

A little above Ultimate Gohan

[Jack Bz]

I like the "base form fusion = strongest fusee's highest form" idea.

So base Vegetto is about as strong as super saiyan 3 Goku in the Boo arc. Base Gogeta in the Broly movie is about as strong as super saiyan blue Goku.

Etc etc.

Realistically we have no idea what Toriyama was thinking except he was probably weaker than Boohan. But even then that's just an assumption.

[Lukmendes]

Realistically we have no idea what Toriyama was thinking except he was probably weaker than Boohan. But even then that's just an assumption.

I'd say that's a safe assumption, characters only really transform against opponents they can't handle in that form, to the point that in Buu saga, Vegeta didn't bother transforming against Pui Pui, and initially Goku didn't transform against Yakon either, and once he did transform it was only really to show off he has ways of seeing in the dark, and then transformed again to trick Yakon.

So yeah, I think it's safe to say base Vegetto is weaker than Buuhan, but even then it's impossible to know how much... He could for example only be about as strong as SS1 Goku, or be only slightly weaker than Buuhan and he didn't feel like fighting on the same level as him.

[miguelnuva1]

Considering Vegito is shocked that SS can dominate Buu but SS is a 50x boost I can see him being slightly weaker than SS3 Gotenks level in base and then being a monster once a SS.

I personally go with SS Vegito= SS3 Gogeta.

[Shintoki]

Considering Vegito is shocked that SS can dominate Buu but SS is a 50x boost I can see him being slightly weaker than SS3 Gotenks level in base and then being a monster once a SS.

I personally go with SS Vegito= SS3 Gogeta.

outside of the OT, but why u have that take? gogeta and vegito (they are one and the same originally) are supposed to be relative to each other because vegeta and goku are. the only time this wouldn't the case is because dance is inferior to potara since the latter doesn't the mandate the fusees be about the same strength so a weakened vegeta or goku would produce a weaker gogeta.

genuiely interested in what's your mindset for that take instead of shoving anything down your throat?

It's a bit more complicated than that. In the manga, there are two "Buuccolos," the one with Piccolo and the kids that you're referring to, and the one with just Piccolo, which everyone forgets. The differences between the two are pretty stark.



From this, we can see that while both forms get Piccolo's cape, the boys give him a thicker and longer head tentacle, a more defined "human" face, and fingers, plus, he loses Piccolo's gi.

With only Piccolo, Buu still has the Super Buu face, mitten-like hands, and the short head tentacle.

From this, we see that while Piccolo influenced Buu's clothing, he doesn't really change Buu's body much when absorbed. The kids, on the other hand, make pretty radical changes to Buu's actual body, plus their influence gets rid of some of the Piccolo clothes.

Furthermore, we know that the South Kaioshin is stronger than the Dai Kaioshin, and yet Fat Buu still has Dai Kaioshin's clothing and appearance, meaning that it's not always the one with the most power who had the greatest influence on Buu's attire.

You can argue that the boys are weaker than Piccolo, but I don't think using Buu's forms is as strong evidence as you think it is.

snip


Is it too harsh to blame the fact that everyone forgets this on both the anime's coloring mistake and the fact that a large percentage of Dragon Ball fans have never actually read the manga?

[They are still very much below the adult saiyan males. This is even supported when the fusion ran out. Buu reverted to the next most powerful form which was Piccolo.

It's a bit more complicated than that. In the manga, there are two "Buuccolos," the one with Piccolo and the kids that you're referring to, and the one with just Piccolo, which everyone forgets. The differences between the two are pretty stark.



Furthermore, we know that the South Kaioshin is stronger than the Dai Kaioshin, and yet Fat Buu still has Dai Kaioshin's clothing and appearance, meaning that it's not always the one with the most power who had the greatest influence on Buu's attire.

You can argue that the boys are weaker than Piccolo, but I don't think using Buu's forms is as strong evidence as you think it is.

it should be noted that south kai wasn't always the strongest and only became so after the dai kaio fight with moro weakened him. and like the other person said, there are two buucolos ofc.

boo attire change mechanism is not 100% coherent if you are unaware that buu gets overwritten if he absorbs someone who's too good-hearted for him to handle. when super boo absorbs someone, their head tail becomes tall even if the absorbed are weaker yet goten and trunks influenced it to become otherwise? and like u said, the dresses are different too but doesn't change much beside clarifying to us that piccolo is not the only one absorbed influencing buu.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Base Vegito isn't as strong as the anime filler would lead you to believe. My logic goes off of the fact that other characters do not seem to get a similar multiplier from fusing.

Kibitokai was still considered useless in the fight against Bui, even though Supreme Kai was about as strong as a FPSSJ by himself. Merged Zamasu was also still weak enough to have been beaten by Goku and Vegeta if it weren't for his immortality wish.

Now the multiplier can be different depending on participants, and I'm sure it is, but the disparity is too much. Other fusions seem to only get a 2x boost on top of adding their base power levels.

personally, i use the DBS manga as a reference point to this topic discussion because vegito was confident he could duke it out with zamasu in his base but it would drag out and he blasted him quite good. something goku needed MSSB to even achieve and even he was equal to zamasu in that state

Spoiler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYShBO6Jofs

so i view the base form of vegito as somewhat moderately above the fusees strongest form (SS3)

[miguelnuva1]

Considering Vegito is shocked that SS can dominate Buu but SS is a 50x boost I can see him being slightly weaker than SS3 Gotenks level in base and then being a monster once a SS.

I personally go with SS Vegito= SS3 Gogeta.

outside of the OT, but why u have that take? gogeta and vegito (they are one and the same originally) are supposed to be relative to each other because vegeta and goku are. the only time this wouldn't the case is because dance is inferior to potara since the latter doesn't the mandate the fusees be about the same strength so a weakened vegeta or goku would produce a weaker gogeta.

genuiely interested in what's your mindset for that take instead of shoving anything down your throat?

When Toriyama wrote the Manga Potara was written as superior to fusion.

The themes of the Buu saga was SS3 could overcome Buu and Fusion could overcome Buu.

Later when Buu becomes a fused being you then needed a Fused SS3 or Gohan to defeat Buu.

Going off the themes at play and Vegito being shocked at his power I just put Super Vegito as equal to a SS3 Gogeta.

Piccolo also says small gains for the fusses are larger gains for the fusion so Goku's additional power makes Vegito about 8x stronger than Gogeta in the Buu arc.

[SupremeKai25]

Strong enough to destroy half of Fused Zamasu after eating a Senzu bean to get full power, which actually doesn't mean anything, since an Exhausted Super Vegeta was also able to destroy half of Perfect Cell despite not standing a chance against him. Surprise attacks against an off-guard opponent are not a valid feat, unless we were to scale Sorbet to SSB Goku level. The fact is that Vegito needed SSB to fight Fused Zamasu. Anything below that - there's no proof it stands a chance against Fused Zamasu.

As for how Vegito compares to Gogeta, I think it should be pretty obvious that Potara >>>> Fusion. Potara is an instrument of the Gods, Fusion is a technique invented by a mortal species. In a series that is all about reaching the realm of the Gods, it goes without saying that an instrument of the Gods would have a greater "fusion multiplier" than a simple mortal technique. This aligns with the overarching narrative.

[Hugo Boss]

The effectiveness of fusion is not determined by its origins but rather by the individuals involved. Dragon Ball is all about challenging this idea that some beings are superior to others. Proof of that comes from Elder Kaioshin interactions.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P10.1-5
Context: Elder Kaioshin explains his ‘ability’
Elder Kaioshin: “With my psychic powers, I can take the hidden power which anyone has, no matter how amazing a master they may be, and draw it wa~~ay, wa~~ay out above their limits. Ehehehehe…Have you ever heard of an ability like that?”
Kaioshin and Kibito: “Oooh!”
Goku: “Wh-what?...Ain’t that the kind of ability you hear about fairly often?”
Elder Kaioshin: “Wh-what are you talking about…?! Above their limits! Above! There de~~efinitely isn’t anyone else that incredible! [ ] Hey, you over there, you were the one who pulled the sword out, right? Come over here a little. If someone could pull that sword out and swing it around, then once I get through with them they’ll de~~efinitely be able to become the best in the universe.”

Spoiler:

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P11.2-4
Context: right after Kaioshin and Kibito merge
Kaioshin: “Oooh! Am-amazing! This is amazing power! Hahaah! [ ] Goku! I can fight too like this! I’ll go with you!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Don’t get carried away! No matter how strong you’ve become, you were never anything special. I doubt you could fight Boo head-on; you’d just end up getting absorbed. So stay here.”

Spoiler:

Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3
Context: as Vegetto beats up on Gohan-absorbed Boo
Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”

Potara is only more effective, because it’s eternal in gods and lasts 1 hour in mortals. In practical terms of a fight the difference between 30 and 60 minutes won’t matter much.

[Koitsukai]

I think we all were initially under the impression Vegito > Gogeta, due to the rival boost and the duration of the merger.
Impression that was filed away in DBS, and was actually turned around when Gogeta lasted so much longer, spamming a lot of strong attacks vs a much stronger foe, while Vegito couldn't even use his trademark attack.
The timelimit was overturned as well, the dance fusion can withstand a lot of power display without reducing its duration while the potara fusion cannot.

Tenfold superiority is hinted nowhere and is quite odd to imply the rival boost is that much. There seems to be a misunderstanding in the fandom of how fusion works, like it's all on the method and the fusees are just passengers, when we literally have RKS stating otherwise.

[super michael]

Remember this Goten and Trunks were in base form, when they were inside Super Boo body. Therefore Super Boo doesn't have access to SSJ1 Goten and Trunks powers.

Super Boo doesn't have access to Gotenks powers, even though he has the individuals. He doesn't have access to SSJ3 Goten and SSJ3 Trunks powers, since they are not in that form and they don't have that form.

SSJ1 Trunks >= SSJ1 Goten > Piccolo > C18.
Piccolo > Base Trunks >= Base Goten

We know that the kids powered up after training in the ROSAT.

[Shintoki]

Strong enough to destroy half of Fused Zamasu after eating a Senzu bean to get full power, which actually doesn't mean anything, since an Exhausted Super Vegeta was also able to destroy half of Perfect Cell despite not standing a chance against him. Surprise attacks against an off-guard opponent are not a valid feat, unless we were to scale Sorbet to SSB Goku level. The fact is that Vegito needed SSB to fight Fused Zamasu. Anything below that - there's no proof it stands a chance against Fused Zamasu.

As for how Vegito compares to Gogeta, I think it should be pretty obvious that Potara >>>> Fusion. Potara is an instrument of the Gods, Fusion is a technique invented by a mortal species. In a series that is all about reaching the realm of the Gods, it goes without saying that an instrument of the Gods would have a greater "fusion multiplier" than a simple mortal technique. This aligns with the overarching narrative.

cell wasn't caught off guard tho, he chose to take on that attack out of cockiness knowing even if things go south then he can regenerate

that's a far off from a surprise attack and a whole different context from when vegito shot an attack in base and still managed to destroy half of zamasu. zamasu never needed in SSB in the manga and it was a one sided fight by then, ONLY IN THE ANIME did they show that vegito needed it

[SupremeKai25]

Strong enough to destroy half of Fused Zamasu after eating a Senzu bean to get full power, which actually doesn't mean anything, since an Exhausted Super Vegeta was also able to destroy half of Perfect Cell despite not standing a chance against him. Surprise attacks against an off-guard opponent are not a valid feat, unless we were to scale Sorbet to SSB Goku level. The fact is that Vegito needed SSB to fight Fused Zamasu. Anything below that - there's no proof it stands a chance against Fused Zamasu.

As for how Vegito compares to Gogeta, I think it should be pretty obvious that Potara >>>> Fusion. Potara is an instrument of the Gods, Fusion is a technique invented by a mortal species. In a series that is all about reaching the realm of the Gods, it goes without saying that an instrument of the Gods would have a greater "fusion multiplier" than a simple mortal technique. This aligns with the overarching narrative.

cell wasn't caught off guard tho, he chose to take on that attack out of cockiness knowing even if things go south then he can regenerate

He was shocked by the magnitude of Vegeta's attack and wasn't trying to defend himself to make a statement. He was essentially off-guard.

that's a far off from a surprise attack and a whole different context from when vegito shot an attack in base and still managed to destroy half of zamasu. zamasu never needed in SSB in the manga and it was a one sided fight by then, ONLY IN THE ANIME did they show that vegito needed it

Actually, it changes the narrative completely, as we know that Fused Zamasu was off-guard as he didn't realize that the two mortals were fusing. He had Goku and Vegeta beaten and cornered and naturally wasn't expectnig a counter-attack.

We see again and again that off-guard attacks can bring down powerful opponents, even when carried out by fodder. We see that Sorbet (fodder) with his laser (fodder attack) was able to oneshot off-guard SSB Goku in the movie that Toriyama wrote.

Off-guard attacks are that lethal.

So I don't see what's so impressive about Vegito destroying Zamasu's arm. Everything that happens later - it's a onesided stomp, not denying it, but Vegito still felt the need to use SSB instead of a lower form (which, would have conserved more energy and extended his time). It's as simple as that.