Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[p-hyvo]

PART 2 : SHIN, GOKU AND VEGETA

SHIN
No doubts about it, he's stronger than Piccolo. The namekiam himself says that, daizenshuu confirms that and El manga legendario directly states that shin is equal to cell saga Goku.
Shin is often overlooked because of the fact that he showed fear towards the likes of puipui and yakon, but that's more him being overly cautious about them than anything . Shin also have some SSJ Gohan level feats , since he could hold still SSJ2 Gohan for a while and didn't fight so differently from SSJ-2 Gohan against fat Boo.

GOKU AND VEGETA
Here the fun starts :
> Vegeta thinks he can win the tournament without transforming even if piccolo and #18 are there , and no one contradicts him on that
> Dabura literally says that there are 3 strong kis they can use to resurrect Boo, referring to the saiyans, and immediately after he uses Piccolo and Crillin as baits to lure them in. Note that he didn't know about the fact that could transform by that point, so this considers only base Goku and Vegeta
> babidi thinks that he'll be able to get the energy he needs to resurrect Boo from Goku and Vegeta (yes , there's Gohan too but since he didn't power up hardly at all since the tournament he doesn't matter) , and by that point he still thought they were normal humans, so he's basically implying that base Goku+ base Vegeta ≥ SSJ2 Gohan
>Toriyama Verbatim states in a daizenshuu interview that Goku is the strongest warrior, so base Goku> base Gotenks and this is coherent with base Goku > Piccolo and #18

>Even in later material, like the tarble special or bog which are canon , Goku is depicted as the strongest and he's not particularly more powerful that during Boo saga there .

The biggest problem with Goku is his SSJ3, which is more than often misunderstood.
SSJ3 has some huge flaws during this arc, being :
1) if used alive, or in a realm in which time passes/exists, it can freely show it's best
2) Goku , over being already on earth, suppressed himself against fat Boo to not burn all his time on earth
So basically, we've never really seen a fullpower SSJ3 Goku in this arc. Goku only thought about using it against pure Boo but NEVER did it in the end.
Let's give some more arbitrary numbers :
We said that base cell saga Gohan is 1
This makes his SSJ = 50
Goku was weaker than him at that time, so let's say that SSJ cell saga Goku us 37.5
That will be shin too, 37.5, 75 with psychic powers
Babidi arc Gohan i would place him a little stronger that at the tournament, just a little:
SSJ Gohan would be 45 and SSJ2 would be 90
90 will be the sum of base Goku and Vegeta too, circa . A bit more maybe since SSJ2 Gohan didn't really get to half the energy Boo's tank needed, but close to that
I'd place base Vegeta at 40 and base Goku at 50 for now

[p-hyvo]

NOW, THE TEUE SPICE : THE BOOS

As I've said previously, Goku suppressed himself against fat Boo to not burn up all his time on earth (and I'll now add because he wanted to leave the matter to the mortals and not to interfere anymore, as he'll say against pure Boo )
We said :
Goku 50
Vegeta 40

Vegeta let's Babidi control him to increase his power and match Goku's, but really since the Majin power up makes you a hell of a tank ( see Spopovitch) I'd say that Vegeta is even slightly more powerful than Goku .
So, base prince of destruction Vegeta 54
As SSJ2s, they would be 5000 and 5400

Quite recently, jump has published some pages about Saiyans in which is explained that saiyans get stronger after every battle since their body adapts to the adrenaline they produce, making them stronger. Due to this, I power them up a bit during this arc.
I raised them both to 60 by the time they face fat Boo, so
Goku/Vegeta 60
SSJ2 6000
SSJ3, suppressed 9000
And fat Boo would be 9000 too

Now, true spice : FAT BOO IS EXACTLY AS STRONG AS EVIL BOO
Yes I've said it : there's no difference between them.
>Daizenshuu states that boo changed from fat to evil and then , only after absorbing Gotenks, he powered up
>jump, talking about boo's power evolution , literally ignored evil Boo and connected fat to bootenks directly
>in the manga, piccolo only commented on how bop's mind has changed, not a single mention to his power. He just got a mind focused on destruction and a better body fir battle but nothing of this impacts on his ki.
>crillin is an expert fighter and initially didn't even notice a change in Boo. I'd say ok, he was distracted, but he ain't stupid. You really think that he wouldn't notice if the enemy powerspykes, distracted or not? It doesn't make much sense .
>Boo's absorptions are always sums of Boo and whoever he absorbs, except for pure boo with is explained why, so why wouldn't evil Boo be that too?
>yes, I know what Goku said to Vegeta about beating evil Boo, but that can be simply explained with Goku not wanting to hurt more Vegeta's pride , since Vegeta already hated on him for having saved SSJ3 during their battle . Goku literally lied for a reason or another until he faced pure Boo .

SECOND BOMBSHELL: PURE BOO IS IN FACT THE STRONEST
Yeah, I'm not mad part 2.
Let's go with this :
We already give for guaranteed that fat Boo = super Boo
So, fat Boo was 9000 and so will be evil Boo.
We said that base fusion is > SSJ Goten before, so if SSJ Goten is 27 we can say that base Gotenks is 45, looks good. Gote ks powered up greatly after the RoSaT training , so I'd say he's around 67.5 , and 10'125 as a SSJ3 (Piccolo didn't notice any difference between Gotenks' SSJ3 and the one used by Goku against fat Boo, so same multiplier is good to me)
Now we talk about Gohan for a bit :
Gohan trained with the z sword , and he had one objective in mind : become at least as strong as Goku, and he did it ( surpassed it even I'd say, since he could use the Z sword way better than him ) so, as I said I boost Goku slightly up to 64 now and Gohan would be 90.
Now another interesting thing : daizenshuu classifies the ultimate form as a SSJ2 evolution peculiar to Gohan, and says that SSJ3 is the strongest Saiyan form . Basically, ultimate Gohan is just > SSJ2 by a good margin but less that SSJ3 , and it makes sense : of Gohan is 90 in base, ultimate can be 13'500 and be perfect.
Another thing that makes me thing that alive SSJ3 Goku is similar in power to Gohan is that he thought about using metamor fusion with him initially, and it would work since now SSJ3 Goku would be 12'800(alive fullpower, so x200 and not x150 like before)

Back to Boo :
Bootenks would be 19'155
Booccolo 9'085
And Boohan 22'585

[p-hyvo]

PART 3 : PURE BOO
where is he? Here he is! I've decided to break up the explanation about him in a dedicated comment because the other one was already too long .

Evidences for him being the strongest boo :
>it is said that absorbing the kaioshins made him weaker , and south Kai boo is stated to be >evil boo
>Goku is the strongest, so it makes sense for him to face the strongest
>a genkidama with literally all of Gohan's power in it wasn't considered nearly enough to beat him and Goku needed all the earthlings to donate too.
> the last enemy is always the strongest
>Toriyama said that he likes to make the smaller ones the strongest to subvert expectations ( yes, I know that cell is by no mean short, but factually perfect cell is anyway the shortest cell so the thing is observed here, and final form Frieza is way shorter than the 2 previous forms so it's fine)
>We saw recently in DBS Goku and Vegeta getting stronger by understanding their true character, and even Toriyama said that the true character (shoki) is a part of one's ki, so heaving a better grasp on yourself makes you stronger. Well, pure Boo is the original one, Boo's true character without any influence from anyone else: reasonably he is the strongest going by this.
>yes, I know about Boohan and what he said, but guess what : he doesn't have any idea about pure boo's power. Yes, he knew he existed, but he couldn't know his power because :
1)to know your power you must have a conscience, which pure boo doesn't have
2)no Boo has yet unlocked the kaioshin's memories, who are the only people that knew how strong pure Boo was since they faced him and got absorbed, so no mean for any Boo to have any idea about pure Boo's power .

Now, let's scale him :
We said
Goku 72
SSJ3 14'400
SSJ3, fullpower (what he meant to use against Boo) 28'800

Pure Boo always went easy on Goku, literally mocking him and Goku himself admitted that he couldn't harm him in any way. The fact tha Boo only really tried in the face of a genkidama which is a technique much more powerful than anything Goku could possibly output alone , makes us understand that no, not even SSJ3 fullpower would have been enough. If anything, it would have beaten the mock level Boo was using against Goku.
So , pure Boo (mock level) 18'000
Pure Boo (fullpower) at least double that, I'm only looking at the og manga for this so anything goes, he only has to be >>fullpower Goku

Little extra: vegito

Vegito in base is stronger than Goku, so I wouldn't say he's any less than 32'000 in base ( SSJ3 Goku + SSJ2 Vegeta) . Or even more,since eos base Goku could fight an angry Oob which should be as powerful as pure Boo but Vegito is still the strongest character in og manga.

[p-hyvo]

POWER SCALE RESULT

Cell saga Gohan
Base 1, SSJ 50
Boo saga Gohan
Base, start of the arc 0.4, SSJ 20, SSJ2 40
Base , 25# tenkaichi 0.8, SSJ 40, SSJ2 80
Base, vs Dabura 0.9, SSJ 45, SSJ2 90
Base, vs Boo 1, SSJ 50, SSJ2 100
Base, pre Z word 1.2, SSJ 60, SSJ2 120
Base, post Z sword 90, SSJ 4500, SSJ2 9000, ultimate 13'500

Goten and trunks
Base, start of arc 0.36 and 0.385
Base, 25# Tenkaichi 0.5 and 0.525, SSJ 25 and 26.25
Base, post RoSaT 0.54 and 0.56, SSJ 27 and 28

Gotenks
Base, pre RoSaT 37.5, SSJ 1'875
Base, post RoSaT 67.5, SSJ 3'375, SSJ3 10'125

Piccolo 30

Shin 37.5, psychic powers 75

#18 (lil extra by me) 9

Goku and Vegeta
25# Tenkaichi, base 50 and 40 , SSJ 2500and 2000, SSJ2 5000 and 4000, prince of destruction SSJ2 5400
Vs fat Boo , base 60, SSJ 3000, SSJ2 6000, , suppressed SSJ3 (Goku) 9000
Vs evil Boo , base 64 , SSJ 3200, SSJ2 6400, SSJ3 (Goku) 12'800, SSJ3 fullpower ( Goku) 25'600

Fat /evil Boo 9000

Bootenks 19'155
Booccolo 9'085
Boohan 22'585

Vegito
Base at least 32'000, likely more
SSJ at least 1'600'000, likely more

Pure Boo
Mocking 18'000
Fullpower at least 36'000, likely more

[FPSSJ4_Goku]

Do you guys think an 8,000x multiplier for SSJ4 (SSJ4 = 20x SSJ3) is accurate, or should it be much higher?

[QuakingStar]

Do you guys think an 8,000x multiplier for SSJ4 (SSJ4 = 20x SSJ3) is accurate, or should it be much higher?

SS4 is much higher than that, and it is also a Potential Unleashed like form. It's compared to a hypothetical Vegito in a section that treated Potara as a form, and at that time Potara was still A x B + for Vegito the unusual boost from the two being rivals, and Vegito should have been able to go SS3 since Goku was able to. So SS4 is comparable to fully powered hypothetical Vegito meaning A x B + rival boost x 400. It's far, far above 8,000x multiplier in fact that's likely not even a fraction of it.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

GOKU AND VEGETA
Here the fun starts :
> Vegeta thinks he can win the tournament without transforming even if piccolo and #18 are there , and no one contradicts him on that
> Dabura literally says that there are 3 strong kis they can use to resurrect Boo, referring to the saiyans, and immediately after he uses Piccolo and Crillin as baits to lure them in. Note that he didn't know about the fact that could transform by that point, so this considers only base Goku and Vegeta
> babidi thinks that he'll be able to get the energy he needs to resurrect Boo from Goku and Vegeta (yes , there's Gohan too but since he didn't power up hardly at all since the tournament he doesn't matter) , and by that point he still thought they were normal humans, so he's basically implying that base Goku+ base Vegeta ≥ SSJ2 Gohan
>Toriyama Verbatim states in a daizenshuu interview that Goku is the strongest warrior, so base Goku> base Gotenks and this is coherent with base Goku > Piccolo and #18

>Even in later material, like the tarble special or bog which are canon , Goku is depicted as the strongest and he's not particularly more powerful that during Boo saga there.

~ I don't disagree with you here, but I think this is kinda weak. Before the tournament everybody always brags about how they're gonna win (Besides Kuririn in the 25th). It's pretty much a rule.

~ If Base Goku and Vegeta were strong enough to fill the meter, then their fight would've filled it on the first punch. Babidi and Dabra just sense they can fill the meter, they don't know how strong they are exactly. Also Gohan was lumped together with Goku and Vegeta as marvelous energy instead of trash, so he's up there with them. Goku/Vegeta > SSJ2 Gohan > Piccolo > Base Gohan makes absolutely no sense.

~ Goku is only the strongest after the series ends, years after the Boo Saga. He may not be training that much, but the boys were all slacking and became weaker.

1) if used alive, or in a realm in which time passes/exists, it can freely show it's best
2) Goku , over being already on earth, suppressed himself against fat Boo to not burn all his time on earth

1) You mean he can't? Because I don't think that's ever suggested anywhere. Goku said he would go all out right off the bat against Kid Boo.
2) He can't be that suppressed though since he's still straining. Suppression reduces strain since it's a method of energy conservation. I'd say SSJ3 Goku is at 80% or so against Fat Boo. Definitely not just 1.5x SSJ2 Goku as you have. That's not a power up that would make everyone react like they did.

Vegeta let's Babidi control him to increase his power and match Goku's, but really since the Majin power up makes you a hell of a tank ( see Spopovitch) I'd say that Vegeta is even slightly more powerful than Goku .

So Vegeta is stronger because he's more durable? Shouldn't he be weaker since their fight was even? Vegeta is tougher, but Goku closes the gap with a little bit more power?

Yes I've said it : there's no difference between them.
>Daizenshuu states that boo changed from fat to evil and then , only after absorbing Gotenks, he powered up
>jump, talking about boo's power evolution , literally ignored evil Boo and connected fat to bootenks directly
>in the manga, piccolo only commented on how bop's mind has changed, not a single mention to his power. He just got a mind focused on destruction and a better body fir battle but nothing of this impacts on his ki.
>crillin is an expert fighter and initially didn't even notice a change in Boo. I'd say ok, he was distracted, but he ain't stupid. You really think that he wouldn't notice if the enemy powerspykes, distracted or not? It doesn't make much sense .
>Boo's absorptions are always sums of Boo and whoever he absorbs, except for pure boo with is explained why, so why wouldn't evil Boo be that too?
>yes, I know what Goku said to Vegeta about beating evil Boo, but that can be simply explained with Goku not wanting to hurt more Vegeta's pride , since Vegeta already hated on him for having saved SSJ3 during their battle . Goku literally lied for a reason or another until he faced pure Boo .

~ Daizenshuu 2 actually states Majin Boo greatly powers up when he absorbs himself again. Daizenshuu 7 is just omissive and doesn't contradict 2.

~ Goku is afraid of Super Boo's Ki, and Piccolo says he's better in every way. Piccolo saying Boo is more evil now is also important because Fat Boo would draw power from evil feelings. In the anime it's made even more obvious with all those characters + the narrator saying Boo has greatly powered up multiple times.

~ That was the point of the scene, wasn't it? Kuririn missed the big obvious Ki while Goku could sense it from another dimension.

~ Because Pure Evil Boo did a whole transformation when he absorbed. He didn't just become the same guy with different clothes like Super Boo does. He basically fused with himself.

~ Wouldn't asking to fuse hurt Vegeta's pride even more? Also the Kid Boo fight shows he didn't really care about Vegeta.

(Piccolo didn't notice any difference between Gotenks' SSJ3 and the one used by Goku against fat Boo, so same multiplier is good to me)

Now another interesting thing : daizenshuu classifies the ultimate form as a SSJ2 evolution peculiar to Gohan, and says that SSJ3 is the strongest Saiyan form . Basically, ultimate Gohan is just > SSJ2 by a good margin but less that SSJ3 , and it makes sense : of Gohan is 90 in base, ultimate can be 13'500 and be perfect.

Piccolo flat out says twice Gotenks (Both in SSJ and SSJ3) is the strongest person Super Boo ever fought, and Goku is pretty impressed that Gotenks could even become SSJ3. Just realized you were talking about SSJ3's multiplier and not about power, but I guess this is as good a place as any to talk about Gohan and Gotenks vs Goku.

Ultimate isn't a Saiyan form, Super Hero has just shown that recently by giving Piccolo one too. So SSJ3 being the strongest saiyan doesn't mean it's stronger than Ultimate. Both have similar purposes since they draw out a Saiyan's potential, but Ultimate form goes beyond limits and Gohan has more potential than Goku. Goku himself acknowledges this but is shocked by Gohan's power up.

[Kaboom]

Do you guys think an 8,000x multiplier for SSJ4 (SSJ4 = 20x SSJ3) is accurate, or should it be much higher?

Based on how we saw Goku and Baby's fights progress, and assuming SS4 actually has anything resembling a predictable multiplier... then I think the most straightforward option is that Gold Ape is 10x one's maximum Super Saiyan power, and then Super Saiyan 4 is another 10x over that.

So if Goku back in the Androids arc somehow got his tail back and went through the whole gold-ape-to-SS4 process, then Super Saiyan 4 would grant him a 5,000x power boost (50 x 10 x 10). But for Goku in the Boo arc and beyond, where he's now got SS3 as his gold-haired pinnacle, then he'd reap a whopping 40,000x boost (400 x 10 x 10).

So if this is how it works then SS4 would kind of operating on a sliding scale of power, but at its full potential as actually seen in GT, it would be waaaaaay more than "only" an 8,000x boost.

[QuakingStar]

Do you guys think an 8,000x multiplier for SSJ4 (SSJ4 = 20x SSJ3) is accurate, or should it be much higher?

Based on how we saw Goku and Baby's fights progress, and assuming SS4 actually has anything resembling a predictable multiplier... then I think the most straightforward option is that Gold Ape is 10x one's maximum Super Saiyan power, and then Super Saiyan 4 is another 10x over that.

So if Goku back in the Androids arc somehow got his tail back and went through the whole gold-ape-to-SS4 process, then Super Saiyan 4 would grant him a 5,000x power boost (50 x 10 x 10). But for Goku in the Boo arc and beyond, where he's now got SS3 as his gold-haired pinnacle, then he'd reap a whopping 40,000x boost (400 x 10 x 10).

So if this is how it works then SS4 would kind of operating on a sliding scale of power, but at its full potential as actually seen in GT, it would be waaaaaay more than "only" an 8,000x boost.

Only issue with that is Vegeta never showed SS3 yet it was confirmed that when he became SS4 he was tied with Goku. I think GGA just draws upon the maximum SS power(SS3) no matter if you have it or not. Then once you start the transformation into SS4 it forcefully draws out your hidden potential the same way Potential Unleashed does so SS4 probably has a 40,000 multiplier at minimum, but that's not including the astronomical amount of power ones Potential Unleashed would give them.

[FPSSJ4_Goku]

Do you guys think an 8,000x multiplier for SSJ4 (SSJ4 = 20x SSJ3) is accurate, or should it be much higher?

Based on how we saw Goku and Baby's fights progress, and assuming SS4 actually has anything resembling a predictable multiplier... then I think the most straightforward option is that Gold Ape is 10x one's maximum Super Saiyan power, and then Super Saiyan 4 is another 10x over that.

So if this is how it works then SS4 would kind of operating on a sliding scale of power, but at its full potential as actually seen in GT, it would be waaaaaay more than "only" an 8,000x boost.

Damn. It looks like Super Saiyan 4 is gonna need to be boosted in my story, then. I've even got a power level list for it, if you'd like to see. Its style was inspired by you!

[Kaboom]

Only issue with that is Vegeta never showed SS3 yet it was confirmed that when he became SS4 he was tied with Goku.

I've thought of that, and it seems to me like even though Vegeta either can't use SS3 at will or perhaps just chooses not to use it... thanks to Baby his body might at least be capable of it now. As long as that power has been previously attained at least once, Gold Ape may still be able to make use of it.

[Kamiccolo9]

Concerning the various Buus,

I think Fat Buu is essentially the same as Mister Buu from the end of the Buu Arc, but he occasionally has "rage boosts" that make him stronger for a time. We see this a couple times after he first appears. The greatest of the enraged moments is right before he expels the Grey Buu, and at this exact moment, he's equal in power to Super Buu.

So, max powe Fat Buu, seen only immediately before he splits, =Super Buu.

After expelling the Grey Buu, the Fat Buu is now essentially as he first emerged from the cocoon, and no longer has the ability to pull out that dormant "rage" power, which is now entirely in the Grey Buu. This Grey Buu is essentially the same power as Pure Buu, and makes up the majority, let's say 60 percent, of Super Buu's power.

So, Mister Buu=Fat Buu before power ups,
Mister Buu + Grey Buu = Super Buu

Grey Buu = Pure Buu, essentially the same being, except the Grey Buu, not being a "natural" Buu, has the emaciated appearance, as he is the metaphysical opposite of the previous good Buu.

Max Power Fat Buu = Super Buu, but it's kinda irrelevant, since powering up that much uses so much of his "rage power" that he can't hold it in and splits apart.

There goes my power level post of the year. See y'all in 2024!

[Koitsukai]

Goku was born with a PL of 2, and this was outrageous for Bardock. So, what would've been a decent PL for a newborn?
10? 20? 50?

How strong were elite saiyan babies then?
An elite adult saiyan like Nappa (in his forties?) was capping a little above 5000.
Kid Vegeta is implied to be stronger than his father, so around 10k, but at birth where was he at?

How strong might've Bardock been when he was born? What about Raditz? I'm assuming Raditz' PL didn't make Bardock ashamed of him.
I know Goku's 2 is lame but I'm trying to see just how lame it was, and how far from a valid PL he was.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Goku was born with a PL of 2, and this was outrageous for Bardock. So, what would've been a decent PL for a newborn?
10? 20? 50?

How strong were elite saiyan babies then?
An elite adult saiyan like Nappa (in his forties?) was capping a little above 5000.
Kid Vegeta is implied to be stronger than his father, so around 10k, but at birth where was he at?

How strong might've Bardock been when he was born? What about Raditz? I'm assuming Raditz' PL didn't make Bardock ashamed of him.
I know Goku's 2 is lame but I'm trying to see just how lame it was, and how far from a valid PL he was.

I think in most cases it's probably not only based on where the baby is at when they're strictly newborn, but also on how/whether their Battle Power develops for a period after that time (presumably for their 3 years of incubation), whereupon a final decision is made about their class stratification and what kind of upbringing they receive, whether as combatant or castaway. Since even in Minus, Bardock seemed to think that Kakarot would be a castaway if things played out normally in any case, it's entirely possible that whatever his original BP was as a newborn (I think 2 is still a popular rating, because why not?), it may have grown only very feebly or inconsistently since then. Son Gohan thought that 3-year-old Kakarot would've been dangerous for an ordinary person to encounter (so, a BP of something like 5 to 7, ish?), and if you go by the Daizenshuu, even 12-year old Goku only has a BP of 10, so the growth margin you're looking at over just 3 years is absolutely tiny either way.

Conversely, Raditz seems to think that even for a Saiyan kid, Gohan's BP of 710 is a freakish anomaly at age 4 (age 3 in the original serialisation, I suppose). Meanwhile 3 year old Broly's BP of 920 is thought of as absurd power that outstrips even adult Saiyans (and that's even without the mad fluctuations in power that, per promotional material, take him up around 10,000 - presumably that's an early instance of his mental state allowing him to take on the power of an Oozaru without transforming). So most Saiyans would presumably be well below either of these ratings as children, even upper-level combatants or elites. Jaco, meanwhile, thinks he can beat a Saiyan kid, but not any adult Saiyan. So there must be a substantial gap between even quite a strong child and any kind of adult (and given the fact that Freeza only cares about BPs above 1000 when recruiting during Broly, a lower-level adult Saiyan combatant is still probably around, or somewhat below, that).

Perhaps something decent as a guess for an upper-level warrior child might be a BP of something like several dozen at the point of birth, tending towards around a couple hundred by the time the third year is up? Back when he was Toyble, Toyotarou gave 7-year-old Raditz a BP of 517 for his fanmanga DB Zero. He wrote it as a plausible level for a lower-level child combatant, but honestly, this seems like a pretty decent estimate for an upper-level kid of that age when considering how Saiyan power has since been relativised in modern Dragon Ball (these days Raditz is classed as an upper-level warrior good enough to pair with Prince Vegeta, possessing the same status as Nappa), so if you divide that by 2 or 3, you might get a decent idea of what power an upper-level 3-year-old might be expected to have (I know it has no actual evidentiary value - it just feels like maybe a useful thing to think with, given that Toyotarou now writes official story material). And perhaps a lower-level child is born with something like a single-digit BP, and doesn't break out of (or even into) double-digits by the end of their third year?

But then again, to speculate further, maybe it's not solely about absolute numbers (though if they're just low, there's no getting around it). In the real world, growth projection charts for a baby's physical measurements exist, divided into 'percentiles', which gives some idea of how they should develop physically, and perhaps highlights a potential issue if growth falls significantly below what has been established in their placement on a projected growth line. Maybe Saiyans have something similar for BP in their own children, and if significant acceleration of growth is shown, maybe a baby born with somewhat lower BP might be assessed more favourably than a baby who is born with a higher BP but whose growth has dipped far below the expected rate, even if there's still a gap between them by the end of the third year.

[Mr Perfect Cell]

Should I make Z movie Power levels? Since I did Z

[RandomGuy96]

Random ass question:

Is there any indication that anyone in the 22nd Budokai arc besides the two finalists and Roshi have surpassed Tao Paipai? Knowing that Tao was about on par with (but slightly inferior to) end-of-arc RRA Goku. I'd think Crane Hermit (power level of 120 given in Weekly Jump) and 22nd Budokai Roshi (power level of 139 given in Daizenshuu 7) are both supposed to be stronger than him, because the former's his older brother and the latter easily beats the former, but there's no confirmation. Previously I'd thought that Krillin and Yamcha thinking they might have a chance against Goku indicated they were at least as strong as Tao Paipai themselves, if not stronger, and by extension that Chappa was too (since they thought he'd be a tough fight for Goku)... but thinking about it, they've literally never met, fought, or sensed Tao Paipai. So how would they know how strong he was?

I think Tao would still be a huge deal in this arc. Not enough to seriously trouble Goku, Tenshinhan, or Roshi of course, but probably stronger than everyone else in the ring and enough to make them fight at their actual strength rather than "match level." Crane Hermit has this to say when watching Goku easily hand Krillin his ass. Specifically, this is right after Goku does a rush attack so quick that Krillin can't even see Goku dancing around him, before he knocks Krillin out of the ring with one hit:

Chapter: 127, P13.1-2
Tsuru-sennin: “H-he’s outrageous…He just might be good enough to have defeated Tao Pai Pai…”
Kame-sennin: “Goku gets bigger and bigger each time I see him…I get the feeling that my position’s already vanished…”

If "stomps out Krillin like he's trash" is still only "maybe he can defeat Tao" territory, that's a pretty direct indication that Tao is stronger than Krillin. Who himself is stronger than Yamcha and Chaozu. This goes double if the Crane Hermit was accounting for the fact that Goku had more power in reserve than he was showing here, which I think would be a reasonable assumption for him to make considering how visibly easy Goku was taking it on Krillin (even doing a silly face to taunt him right before knocking him out).

On that note, the next arc. Except for Goku and Piccolo, none of the characters in the Piccolo Daimao arc change in power at all. Goku and Piccolo are clearly in a different dimension than anything that came before. Old Piccolo is "can easily face-tank Goku's strongest attack while outputting less than half his power, then becomes many times more powerful, then powers up to an unspecified degree after that" tier, and post-water Goku is his equal.

Chapter: 143, P14.2-5
Context: said when Goku hits him with the Kamehameha
Goku: “Heheh! He took that head-on!”
*Piccolo is unharmed*
Piccolo: “Did you do something just now?”

Chapter: 143, P12.3
Context: Piccolo continues to outclass Goku
Piccolo: “Hohhohhoh…You have no chance of winning, no matter how you struggle, and you can’t run away either. It seems all that’s left for you is the road to death. I’m still not even putting out half of my power. Too bad for you…so then, what will you do?”

Chapter: 144, P9.2-3
Pilaf: “Um, hey…So if he regains his youth, he’ll be even more amazing…?”
Piano: “Naturally. So much so that there’ll be no comparison [to how he is now].”

Chapter: 156, P11.1-6
Piccolo: “Oh, I’m impressed that you noticed. But then, you would. My life span shortens when I fight at full power…I didn’t want to use it if at all possible, but…it seems I have no choice…”

Drum is "moderately above 22nd Budokai Goku/Tenshinhan" tier. He beats Ten in a fistfight but Ten can still tag him and draw blood when he lands a hit. But of course Drum is nothing compared to his dad or Goku as a holding-back basically explodes his head with one kick.

Chapter: 155, P2.2
Context: said after he kills Drum
Tenshinhan: “One hit…just one hit…What’s happened?...He’s not the same Son he was before…! He shouldn’t have had such stupendous destructive power…!”

So, where does that leave Tambourine? Is there any indication that he's stronger than Tao? He beats up Goku but that's explicitly attributed to Goku being low on energy after his long fight with Tenshinhan, and after Goku has a rest and a meal he disintegrates Tambourine effortlessly. As far as I can tell Tambourine's best feat is just killing Krillin, right? Then killing a bunch of 21st/22nd Budokai contestants who should be weaker than Krillin. But Crane Hermit indicates that Tao could've done the same thing. And of course Cymbal's way weaker than Tambourine, but can still put up a fight against Yajirobe...

Chapter: 135, P4.1
Context: after Goku runs off to fight Tambourine
Kame-sennin: “That idiot! This is someone good enough to defeat Kuririn…Goku’s used up all his power in the tournament; he shouldn’t have any chance of winning…!”

Chapter: 140, P10.6
Piccolo: “Immediately go and take care of whoever killed Cymbal! You’re many times stronger than Cymbal, but don’t get caught off guard. We don’t know the nature of this enemy…”

Chapter: 140, P10.6
Piccolo: “Immediately go and take care of whoever killed Cymbal! You’re many times stronger than Cymbal, but don’t get caught off guard. We don’t know the nature of this enemy…”

EDIT: also when Goku claims to have beaten Tao Paipai, Tenshinhan is in utterly disbelief. He only comes around to thinking of it as plausible after the aforementioned match against Krillin (he says Goku must be lying or that he got lucky). Note that this is after Ten's tossed Yamcha aside like trash, so he has a pretty good idea of the "level" Roshi's students should be on before he hears this, and still considers Tao well above that. If Roshi has any idea how strong Tao is, his shocked reaction to Goku's statement would also indicate that Tao was way above the competition at this point (like Yamcha and Chappa)... and, taken with the above statement of "I get the feeling that my position’s already vanished", could imply that Roshi doesn't believe himself capable of the same feat.

Chapter: 120, P11.1-2
Context: Goku revealed that he defeated Taopaipai. Tenshinhan did not believe it.
Jackie Chun: “Did you really…take down Taopaipai…?”
Goku: “Huh? You too, gramps? I did so! It wasn’t easy, though…him being so strong and all.”
Jackie Chun: “Taopaipai…said to be the world’s Number One assassin…and this lad…he…he…”

[RandomGuy96]

So, with Oppenheimer in the spotlight, I was wondering when did the characters get atomic power at their disposal?
Was Roshi destroying the moon already as strong as an atomic bomb?
Piccolo Jr. blowing up the stage?
Piccolo's makankosappo?

And when did they become able to access that power casually? like a lousy, run of the mill ki blast being as strong as an atomic bomb?
Like when did Tenshinhan, Krilin, Yamcha, Piccolo, Gohan, etc... became that powerful? after training with Kami? after training with Kaio?
I doubt Chaozu got ever that strong, for instance.

Young Piccolo Daimao, at a stretch. Daizenshuu 7 explicitly says the totality of his power is comparable to a small nuclear bomb. This is probably based on the sequence where he does a big charge up and exhausts himself shooting a super blast that then blows up a chunk of the city he and Goku are fighting in - though it should be noted that this is very far beyond his usual output and represents an upper limit (Goku admits the blast would've killed him if he'd been caught in it, and thanks Ten for saving his life; Goku also never demonstrates such a feat himself despite being Piccolo's equal in hand-to-hand combat). Before that no one comes close; Tenshinhan at the 22nd Budokai is tied for the position of "strongest in the series" at that point, and he needs to perform a super risky suicide move countless times beyond his regular power (to the point that a fraction of its output would flat-out vaporize Goku) just to blow up the arena, indicating that no other attack he possesses can do the job. Indeed, Goku launches multiple Kamehamehas at the floor during this fight and they just go off like a few kilos of TNT, doing little to the tiles.

Discounting Buff Roshi's mega Kamehameha of course, which is an outlier even in-universe (e.g. it could've killed Oozaru Goku whose battle power should've been much higher than Piccolo's even at that point) and which he never uses in combat or really against anything but massive stationary objects.

As for when "lousy, run of the mill ki blast became as strong as an atomic bomb"... going by the fights we actually see, I'm not sure this ever happened. But gun to my head? Freeza at the earliest.

Who is the strongest opponent that the Earthlings from the Boo arc could defeat?

Honestly, after the new material I think the Earthlings and basically everyone but Goku and Vegeta are just supposed to have degraded and gotten weak as shit. Most obviously, in Resurrection F they were tired out fighting Freeza henchmen explicitly far inferior to the ones he had before. These particular Freeza henchmen could be defeated by Jaco, crushed by falling rubble, or just flat-out eaten by the local wildlife. Krillin in the Super manga now can't even catch a robotic bee until he resorts to shooting it with his ordinary handgun. He also gets hurt by a bullet.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

As for when "lousy, run of the mill ki blast became as strong as an atomic bomb"... going by the fights we actually see, I'm not sure this ever happened. But gun to my head? Freeza at the earliest.

What about Nappa?

Spoiler:

Maybe even Piccolo, but he didn’t look so casual blowing up the moon (but still, blowing up the moon with mild effort is waaay beyond nuke level). Talking about Piccolo, Daimao blew up a city with a wave of his hand to scare the Furry King, way before Goku even arrived. That FP blast could have destroyed way more.

[RandomGuy96]

What about Nappa?

Nappa's kind of an enormous outlier, enhanced by the fact that this event is depicted completely differently in the anime. Later in that same fight, and even as late as the Freeza fight, we have fighters being awed by the power of... making a big hole in the ground. Not like a city-sized one or anything.

Talking about Piccolo, Daimao blew up a city with a wave of his hand to scare the Furry King, way before Goku even arrived.

I mean no, he didn't? Like not even close? The King says the city was destroyed but from what we can see, he only destroyed like five buildings, part of a continuous urban agglomeration. There's a whole bunch of city untouched behind the impact site. Also unharmed rocks and trees within what appear to be mere dozens of meters of said site.

Spoiler:

Nowhere near a nuke. We've been dropping conventional bombs that take out entire city blocks since the 1930s.

That FP blast could have destroyed way more.

Well no, it clearly couldn't, as demonstrated by the fact that he gassed himself out launching a super charged attack and some of the city was still there afterwards. The cities as drawn are pretty small too, which is probably where this bit in Daizenshuu 7 came from:

"He has become even more powerful now that he has his youth restored. Easily capable of blowing away a city, his power rivals that of a small nuclear bomb."

Maybe even Piccolo, but he didn’t look so casual blowing up the moon (but still, blowing up the moon with mild effort is waaay beyond nuke level).

Spoiler:

It wasn't "mild effort." He was huffing and puffing afterwards, indicating he used up a significant fraction of his total energy reserves (which is very distinct from power, by the way, so there's no guarantee a more powerful character could even do the same thing). Maybe even most of them. This didn't happen when he fired that big blast that he thought would kill Nappa. It didn't happen when he fired the blast that killed Raditz.

Also the moon thing is... weird. The Kakarot game retconned it as an illusion and, while we don't know this, I'd bet anything that was one of the bits that came from Toriyama. It seems like something he would write and it's more consistent with what happens in the scene. Namely, Piccolo deciding to blow up the moon is in direct response to him shitting himself at the "enormous destructive power" of Oozaru Gohan blowing up some small mountains.

[ZombieVito]

Random ass question:

Is there any indication that anyone in the 22nd Budokai arc besides the two finalists and Roshi have surpassed Tao Paipai? Knowing that Tao was about on par with (but slightly inferior to) end-of-arc RRA Goku. I'd think Crane Hermit (power level of 120 given in Weekly Jump) and 22nd Budokai Roshi (power level of 139 given in Daizenshuu 7) are both supposed to be stronger than him, because the former's his older brother and the latter easily beats the former, but there's no confirmation. Previously I'd thought that Krillin and Yamcha thinking they might have a chance against Goku indicated they were at least as strong as Tao Paipai themselves, if not stronger, and by extension that Chappa was too (since they thought he'd be a tough fight for Goku)... but thinking about it, they've literally never met, fought, or sensed Tao Paipai. So how would they know how strong he was?

I think Tao would still be a huge deal in this arc. Not enough to seriously trouble Goku, Tenshinhan, or Roshi of course, but probably stronger than everyone else in the ring and enough to make them fight at their actual strength rather than "match level." Crane Hermit has this to say when watching Goku easily hand Krillin his ass. Specifically, this is right after Goku does a rush attack so quick that Krillin can't even see Goku dancing around him, before he knocks Krillin out of the ring with one hit:

Chapter: 127, P13.1-2
Tsuru-sennin: “H-he’s outrageous…He just might be good enough to have defeated Tao Pai Pai…”
Kame-sennin: “Goku gets bigger and bigger each time I see him…I get the feeling that my position’s already vanished…”

If "stomps out Krillin like he's trash" is still only "maybe he can defeat Tao" territory, that's a pretty direct indication that Tao is stronger than Krillin. Who himself is stronger than Yamcha and Chaozu. This goes double if the Crane Hermit was accounting for the fact that Goku had more power in reserve than he was showing here, which I think would be a reasonable assumption for him to make considering how visibly easy Goku was taking it on Krillin (even doing a silly face to taunt him right before knocking him out).

On that note, the next arc. Except for Goku and Piccolo, none of the characters in the Piccolo Daimao arc change in power at all. Goku and Piccolo are clearly in a different dimension than anything that came before. Old Piccolo is "can easily face-tank Goku's strongest attack while outputting less than half his power, then becomes many times more powerful, then powers up to an unspecified degree after that" tier, and post-water Goku is his equal.

Chapter: 143, P14.2-5
Context: said when Goku hits him with the Kamehameha
Goku: “Heheh! He took that head-on!”
*Piccolo is unharmed*
Piccolo: “Did you do something just now?”

Chapter: 143, P12.3
Context: Piccolo continues to outclass Goku
Piccolo: “Hohhohhoh…You have no chance of winning, no matter how you struggle, and you can’t run away either. It seems all that’s left for you is the road to death. I’m still not even putting out half of my power. Too bad for you…so then, what will you do?”

Chapter: 144, P9.2-3
Pilaf: “Um, hey…So if he regains his youth, he’ll be even more amazing…?”
Piano: “Naturally. So much so that there’ll be no comparison [to how he is now].”

Chapter: 156, P11.1-6
Piccolo: “Oh, I’m impressed that you noticed. But then, you would. My life span shortens when I fight at full power…I didn’t want to use it if at all possible, but…it seems I have no choice…”

Drum is "moderately above 22nd Budokai Goku/Tenshinhan" tier. He beats Ten in a fistfight but Ten can still tag him and draw blood when he lands a hit. But of course Drum is nothing compared to his dad or Goku as a holding-back basically explodes his head with one kick.

Chapter: 155, P2.2
Context: said after he kills Drum
Tenshinhan: “One hit…just one hit…What’s happened?...He’s not the same Son he was before…! He shouldn’t have had such stupendous destructive power…!”

So, where does that leave Tambourine? Is there any indication that he's stronger than Tao? He beats up Goku but that's explicitly attributed to Goku being low on energy after his long fight with Tenshinhan, and after Goku has a rest and a meal he disintegrates Tambourine effortlessly. As far as I can tell Tambourine's best feat is just killing Krillin, right? Then killing a bunch of 21st/22nd Budokai contestants who should be weaker than Krillin. But Crane Hermit indicates that Tao could've done the same thing. And of course Cymbal's way weaker than Tambourine, but can still put up a fight against Yajirobe...

Chapter: 135, P4.1
Context: after Goku runs off to fight Tambourine
Kame-sennin: “That idiot! This is someone good enough to defeat Kuririn…Goku’s used up all his power in the tournament; he shouldn’t have any chance of winning…!”

Chapter: 140, P10.6
Piccolo: “Immediately go and take care of whoever killed Cymbal! You’re many times stronger than Cymbal, but don’t get caught off guard. We don’t know the nature of this enemy…”

Chapter: 140, P10.6
Piccolo: “Immediately go and take care of whoever killed Cymbal! You’re many times stronger than Cymbal, but don’t get caught off guard. We don’t know the nature of this enemy…”

EDIT: also when Goku claims to have beaten Tao Paipai, Tenshinhan is in utterly disbelief. He only comes around to thinking of it as plausible after the aforementioned match against Krillin (he says Goku must be lying or that he got lucky). Note that this is after Ten's tossed Yamcha aside like trash, so he has a pretty good idea of the "level" Roshi's students should be on before he hears this, and still considers Tao well above that. If Roshi has any idea how strong Tao is, his shocked reaction to Goku's statement would also indicate that Tao was way above the competition at this point (like Yamcha and Chappa)... and, taken with the above statement of "I get the feeling that my position’s already vanished", could imply that Roshi doesn't believe himself capable of the same feat.

Chapter: 120, P11.1-2
Context: Goku revealed that he defeated Taopaipai. Tenshinhan did not believe it.
Jackie Chun: “Did you really…take down Taopaipai…?”
Goku: “Huh? You too, gramps? I did so! It wasn’t easy, though…him being so strong and all.”
Jackie Chun: “Taopaipai…said to be the world’s Number One assassin…and this lad…he…he…”

Yeah, the way people talk about Tao at the 22nd TB always made me think he was very strong. If his brother is at 120 then I can't see Tao any lower than 100. I personally like him at 110.

Tambourine I have at 140. Strong enough to be a threat (He did kill King Chappa after all) but not enough to beat Tenshinhan and Goku.

P.S. Nice to see you back BTW!