Dragon Ball Daima (2024)

[AliTheZombie13]

The most impressive example I've noticed of Toriyama remembering something that fans didn't notice is God Ki.

While it's BoG that made everyone even learn about it, it was actually there during Buu saga. Shin in 439 notes that Piccolo only managed to recognize who he is because he used to be Kami, and Dabura in 447 specifically says that Shin's and Kibito's power can't be used on Buu, but the other characters' can.

So, ever since Buu saga, God Ki was a thing, but it was talked about so vaguely and so briefly in only those two situations (As far as I remember at least) that I'd be surprised if anyone even noticed that there's supposed to be something different about Shin and Kibito before BoG, yet, Toriyama remembered this "prototype" God Ki, and expanded it on Battle of Gods and beyond.

It's also amusing that this "prototype" God Ki also creates a plot hole, because it makes no sense to say that God Ki can't be used to resurrect Buu when eventually it was retconned that there's two Kaioshins within Buu, so there is at least some God Ki within him.

To be honest, I hate the concept of God Ki.
It was acceptable at first when only Beerus and God SSJ could get to that level of power.
But then, the story started going, "Oh yeah, it ain't that special, anybody can reach that by casually training off-screen."
Slowly but surely, God Ki became just, "another strongerest level for Goku to reach," only to become quickly irrelevant by the next arc.

Even if Toriyama did remember that thing from the Boo Saga, which I highly doubt, he still got it wrong in Super.
Because Piccolo, the one who sensed "God Ki" in the Boo Saga, didn't even recognize it when Beerus showed up, Dende did while Piccolo just stood there not understanding what was that all about.

[Grimlock]

The most impressive example I've noticed of Toriyama remembering something that fans didn't notice is God Ki.

While it's BoG that made everyone even learn about it, it was actually there during Buu saga. Shin in 439 notes that Piccolo only managed to recognize who he is because he used to be Kami, and Dabura in 447 specifically says that Shin's and Kibito's power can't be used on Buu, but the other characters' can.

So, ever since Buu saga, God Ki was a thing, but it was talked about so vaguely and so briefly in only those two situations (As far as I remember at least) that I'd be surprised if anyone even noticed that there's supposed to be something different about Shin and Kibito before BoG, yet, Toriyama remembered this "prototype" God Ki, and expanded it on Battle of Gods and beyond.

I noticed it quite a few times now. There's even an entire thread dedicated to this subject.

[Lukmendes]

To be honest, I hate the concept of God Ki.
It was acceptable at first when only Beerus and God SSJ could get to that level of power.
But then, the story started going, "Oh yeah, it ain't that special, anybody can reach that by casually training off-screen."

Well that's an usual problem with his writing, he likes to de-mystify things, just look at Goten getting SSJ and not even remembering how.

Slowly but surely, God Ki became just, "another strongerest level for Goku to reach," only to become quickly irrelevant by the next arc.

Also a problem with his writing lol.

Even if Toriyama did remember that thing from the Boo Saga, which I highly doubt, he still got it wrong in Super.
Because Piccolo, the one who sensed "God Ki" in the Boo Saga, didn't even recognize it when Beerus showed up, Dende did while Piccolo just stood there not understanding what was that all about.

I don't think he remembered how he used it exactly back in Buu saga, just the concept of it, so I wouldn't be surprised he remembered this idea that gods have different ki, and forgot that Piccolo can kinda sense it.

Then again, I double checked the movie here and, neither Piccolo or Dende could sense something was up with Beerus, it's only in the anime version where Toei made only Dende be able to sense it.

Also BoG has a scene where Satan is surprised to learn Dende is Kami, something he really shouldn't be surprised at since he met Dende back in Buu saga lol.

I noticed it quite a few times now. There's even an entire thread dedicated to this subject.

Nice.

Though I was wondering if there were people who noticed that something was different about Shin and Kibito before god ki became more established in BoG, so, before 2013.

[dragonballhero]

That feels like what they're going for. I think Beerus and Whis will make cameos, maybe chilling out on their planet far away, but it's possible that this is a timeline where they never met Goku and co.

While I was wrong about the idea of de-ageing Goku in GT originally coming from Toriyama, it still seems like he got attached to the concept, especially bringing the series back to more lighthearted and adventurous roots. He has very frequently criticized the direction Dragon Ball took in terms of the over-emphasis on combat and ridiculous power-scaling. De-ageing the characters serves as a perfect excuse to tone down those elements in a visually clear way.

I know they're fan-favorites (Beerus and Whis), but I REALLY hope that ends up being the case. I'll be honest, I've grown a good deal tired of the constant escalation of battles, even in Super Hero. That said, I remember his comment about GT and how if he continued DB, maybe he wouldn't mind doing a de-aging story, so I guess this was a long time coming, huh?

Regarding Daima's placement in the series' timeline, I've had a similar thought for some time now. That being that Daima occurs in an alternate reality where Beerus, Whis, and the other gods (and angels) of their levels just... aren't a thing, or at the very least, they aren't directly involved in the lives of Goku and the gang.

Personally, I've been of the belief that the overall story occurs where Battle of Gods WOULD have taken place, but instead of Beerus and Whis showing up, Goku and the others go on their big adventure to undo the magic that de-aged them into children.

All in all, I just don't think Beerus and Whis are going to factor into this story at all. Daima clearly plans to try and accomplish what GT supposedly didn't feel confident enough in itself to do. That is, to HEAVILY downplay the series' current power scaling, and Beerus/Whis would clearly put a damper on those plans.

Side note, this is also why I assume Goten and Trunks were de-aged into toddlers, and why I see Gohan being written out somehow as well (if he isn't turned into a toddler too). Their potential might render a bit of this story kind of moot, so...

To be fair, if the characters' power levels are nerfed when turned into kids, then Gohan wouldn't even do that much, considering his power while high, wasn't too powerful until Namek, the real thing to keep in mind is Vegeta, since would completely outclass Goku, and I don't see Toriyama doing that in a way that stays around for a while.

Either way, we have RoF, Broly, and Super-Hero as stories where Beerus and Whis don't really matter, if this is post BoG they could just say Beerus is taking a nap and Whis isn't waking him up for at least a few months... It would be harder to excuse why they don't just go train with him, or even why they don't just use the training they learned from him though...

Well, I guess we can only hope that this whole thing puts just enough of a cap on Vegeta's powers that Daima doesn't end up falling into the same narrative trap that GT fell into (where Vegeta, (like Goku (GT)), would still have access to stuff like Super Saiyan).

[Lukmendes]

I know they're fan-favorites (Beerus and Whis), but I REALLY hope that ends up being the case. I'll be honest, I've grown a good deal tired of the constant escalation of battles, even in Super Hero. That said, I remember his comment about GT and how if he continued DB, maybe he wouldn't mind doing a de-aging story, so I guess this was a long time coming, huh?

Considering Toriyama has expressed regret that the characters are too old in EoZ, and how in Super he made sure no one aged until Super Hero (While in Super Hero he excused Goten and Trunks as growing like regular saiyans, even if we ignore how this contradicts Gohan's entire existence, this doesn't explain Marron), and how both Broly and Super Hero had Bulma using the wishes to de-age and look prettier, it's honestly shocking we didn't consider this would happen.

Hell, there's even a possibility that Daima is actually post EoZ, and this was done partially so the characters are younger once they're aged up... There's even the wild possibility that Toriyama would try to make it permanent.

Well, I guess we can only hope that this whole thing puts just enough of a cap on Vegeta's powers that Daima doesn't end up falling into the same narrative trap that GT fell into (where Vegeta, (like Goku (GT)), would still have access to stuff like Super Saiyan).

Yeah honestly, characters being de-aged would have no real point if they can still access their powers normally, GT even barely nerfed Goku when doing that, since all they did was make Goku not able to teleport (And they established this in a completely nonsensical situation where he tried to teleport in a ship with no one inside), and SS3 being lasting for even less time (And that only affected the first time Goku used SS3, it lasted much more the second time), and both were made redundant once he got SS4.

Like I can see Daima being made primarily to make the characters cute because kids, but I'd be surprised if they don't have at least some ki problems to also get in the way... And also give an excuse for Goku to bother with Power Pole to begin with.

So yeah, I expect some nerfs, if Toriyama is feeling wild there'll be no transformations at all and maybe Goku might have to rely on Kaioken again, and that's assuming he can use it too... If there is some transformations but not all of them, I can see god forms being out and Goku only uses yellow forms (Which will likely mean he'll only use SS1, since it doesn't seem like Toriyama cares that much about SS2 or 3 anymore).

If Toriyama wants to go so far that their power levels are how they were like when they were kids, then oh boy, will Toriyama remember that Vegeta was considered super strong even as a kid? Hell, Broly even has King Vegeta talking like he's super strong as a baby...

If their power is back to how it was like when they were kids, that can also mean no transformations at all too...

Time will tell.

[dragonballhero]

I know they're fan-favorites (Beerus and Whis), but I REALLY hope that ends up being the case. I'll be honest, I've grown a good deal tired of the constant escalation of battles, even in Super Hero. That said, I remember his comment about GT and how if he continued DB, maybe he wouldn't mind doing a de-aging story, so I guess this was a long time coming, huh?

Considering Toriyama has expressed regret that the characters are too old in EoZ, and how in Super he made sure no one aged until Super Hero (While in Super Hero he excused Goten and Trunks as growing like regular saiyans, even if we ignore how this contradicts Gohan's entire existence, this doesn't explain Marron), and how both Broly and Super Hero had Bulma using the wishes to de-age and look prettier, it's honestly shocking we didn't consider this would happen.

Hell, there's even a possibility that Daima is actually post EoZ, and this was done partially so the characters are younger once they're aged up... There's even the wild possibility that Toriyama would try to make it permanent.

Well, I guess we can only hope that this whole thing puts just enough of a cap on Vegeta's powers that Daima doesn't end up falling into the same narrative trap that GT fell into (where Vegeta, (like Goku (GT)), would still have access to stuff like Super Saiyan).

Yeah honestly, characters being de-aged would have no real point if they can still access their powers normally, GT even barely nerfed Goku when doing that, since all they did was make Goku not able to teleport (And they established this in a completely nonsensical situation where he tried to teleport in a ship with no one inside), and SS3 being lasting for even less time (And that only affected the first time Goku used SS3, it lasted much more the second time), and both were made redundant once he got SS4.

Like I can see Daima being made primarily to make the characters cute because kids, but I'd be surprised if they don't have at least some ki problems to also get in the way... And also give an excuse for Goku to bother with Power Pole to begin with.

So yeah, I expect some nerfs, if Toriyama is feeling wild there'll be no transformations at all and maybe Goku might have to rely on Kaioken again, and that's assuming he can use it too... If there is some transformations but not all of them, I can see god forms being out and Goku only uses yellow forms (Which will likely mean he'll only use SS1, since it doesn't seem like Toriyama cares that much about SS2 or 3 anymore).

If Toriyama wants to go so far that their power levels are how they were like when they were kids, then oh boy, will Toriyama remember that Vegeta was considered super strong even as a kid? Hell, Broly even has King Vegeta talking like he's super strong as a baby...

If their power is back to how it was like when they were kids, that can also mean no transformations at all too...

Time will tell.

Wow! Didn't think someone would have such similar thoughts as me! Yeah, I've occasionally had shower thoughts about how Toriyama's gone on record to express his regret over making the cast's ages more 'apparent' by the end of the original manga. Combining that with how the cast barely looks any different throughout Super (including Goten and (Prime) Trunks, as well as the insanely egregious-as-hell situation that are Marron and Mai (moreso in the Super manga)), and now the revelation that Bulma's been using the DBs to make herself look just young enough that no one gets suspicious?

My God, this whole I honestly thought I was the only one who briefly had it in their head that Daima might even END with the cast being forced to age back up normally, either starting as kids/toddlers or aged back up to a point where they simply don't return to their original ages prior to the de-aging.

As for the power level thing, I honestly can't wait to see just how Toriyama decides to handle THAT. This might be a hot take, but a part of me hopes that there WON'T be transformations in Daima, or at the very least, the most Goku and Vegeta will be able to muster is SSJ1. In Goku's case, I particularly hope that Kaio-ken CAN be used, but the risks of using it are far-and-away even MORE of a detriment to him if he decides to over-shoot on it. You know, so he doesn't decide to just use that power through every enemy they come across on this show.

I'd like if he fought smarter as well, after all.

As I've mentioned before, this is why I feel like Gohan, Goten, and Trunks probably won't play as big of a role here. Especially Gohan, given his potential supposedly being higher than Goku and Vegeta combined would make him "too much of an asset" for the kind of story this series appears to be planning to tell, and the odds are (given his age relative to the rest of the cast, from his parents and upward), he'll be (at worst) a toddler like in the beginning of Z, if not a year younger than that.

At least Goten and Trunks are straight-up babies, so the odds of them using SSJ are even slimmer, combined with them (possibly) having little conscious thought.

[Lukmendes]

Wow! Didn't think someone would have such similar thoughts as me! Yeah, I've occasionally had shower thoughts about how Toriyama's gone on record to express his regret over making the cast's ages more 'apparent' by the end of the original manga. Combining that with how the cast barely looks any different throughout Super (including Goten and (Prime) Trunks, as well as the insanely egregious-as-hell situation that are Marron and Mai (moreso in the Super manga)), and now the revelation that Bulma's been using the DBs to make herself look just young enough that no one gets suspicious?

Yeah I thought of most of the things I listed back when Daima was announced, I think I even made a comment in another page here saying that lol.

And man, I didn't even think of Mai, or Pilaff gang in general... That shows another case of Toriyama prefering younger characters...

My God, this whole I honestly thought I was the only one who briefly had it in their head that Daima might even END with the cast being forced to age back up normally, either starting as kids/toddlers or aged back up to a point where they simply don't return to their original ages prior to the de-aging.

I didn't even consider of them aging back up normally, I get the feeling either the wish will be undone and maybe everyone will be younger than before, or it won't happen and they can remain young effectively forever...

Though it could also be a case of Toriyama wanting to redo DB in a way, and just have everyone age normally, but I honestly don't think this is the case... But who knows, Toriyama had this weird ass idea to begin with.

As for the power level thing, I honestly can't wait to see just how Toriyama decides to handle THAT. This might be a hot take, but a part of me hopes that there WON'T be transformations in Daima, or at the very least, the most Goku and Vegeta will be able to muster is SSJ1. In Goku's case, I particularly hope that Kaio-ken CAN be used, but the risks of using it are far-and-away even MORE of a detriment to him if he decides to over-shoot on it. You know, so he doesn't decide to just use that power through every enemy they come across on this show.

If he has SS1 then Kaioken is pointless, since it's been always clear that Kaioken is weaker than even SS1.

Unless Toriyama decides to not care about any of that and reverse the power of both, so SS1 becomes the weaker, more stable transformations, while Kaioken is risky but much stronger.

I'd like if he fought smarter as well, after all.

Problem is that, even if he did, it probably wouldn't work out that much, DB's writing since even vanilla DB had gimmicks as things that you easily overcome until you can brute force against your opponent.

As I've mentioned before, this is why I feel like Gohan, Goten, and Trunks probably won't play as big of a role here. Especially Gohan, given his potential supposedly being higher than Goku and Vegeta combined would make him "too much of an asset" for the kind of story this series appears to be planning to tell, and the odds are (given his age relative to the rest of the cast, from his parents and upward), he'll be (at worst) a toddler like in the beginning of Z, if not a year younger than that.

Honestly the de-aging thing is arbitrary, Shin is older than all the other characters combined and he's turned into just a kid, all the much younger characters are just kids too.

I think that Gohan won't be that young, if this takes after Super-Hero he'll be almost 30, if it takes place before BoG, he'll probably be an young adult (Specially if the celebration is his marriage with Videl), but who knows, his abscence from the trailer is actually suspicious.

It's also worth pointing out that, if the old Namekian is Kami like some deduced, then it'll make the de-aging even more arbitrary, because Kami isn't even that old.

At least Goten and Trunks are straight-up babies, so the odds of them using SSJ are even slimmer, combined with them (possibly) having little conscious thought.

They act like the usual babies in that trailer, so they'll probably be useless again, only this time there's a good reason for it.

Also I'm not sure if it was pointed out but, the biggest clue to this being around BoG times is Bulma's hair, since she changes her hair style a lot and never goes back to a previous one, and this is a hair style she used from Buu saga until BoG, though, she's not wearing that red dress, which she did wear in both Buu saga and BoG, but a change of clothes is less noticeable that hair style change...

[dragonballhero]

Yeah I thought of most of the things I listed back when Daima was announced, I think I even made a comment in another page here saying that lol.

And man, I didn't even think of Mai, or Pilaf gang in general... That shows another case of Toriyama preferring younger characters...

Yeah, in my eyes? Marron especially currently looking identical to how she did in the Majin Buu arc was one of the first indicators for me that Toriyama's beginning to address his regrets over aging the cast as much as he did. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised he HASN'T done something to explain that plothole away. Maybe something like 'her mom was cybernetically altered and those altered genes affected her as well' or something.

Then again, as insignificant as Marron currently is? I can totally see Toriyama just BARELY remembering 'Oh, yeah... Krillin and #18 have a kid, don't they? Eh, not like I have plans for her anyways. No one'll notice if she still looks like a toddler, right?'

I didn't even consider of them aging back up normally, I get the feeling either the wish will be undone and maybe everyone will be younger than before, or it won't happen and they can remain young effectively forever...

Though it could also be a case of Toriyama wanting to redo DB in a way, and just have everyone age normally, but I honestly don't think this is the case... But who knows, Toriyama had this weird ass idea to begin with.

Regarding everyone else's de-aging, I think it'll be either end of the spectrum. Either things truly go back to normal and everyone returns to their original ages, no strings attached or... something happens that results in the whole cast having to re-grow up naturally (like Goku more or less chose to do in GT).

If he has SS1 then Kaioken is pointless, since it's been always clear that Kaioken is weaker than even SS1.

Unless Toriyama decides to not care about any of that and reverse the power of both, so SS1 becomes the weaker, more stable transformations, while Kaioken is risky but much stronger.

Regarding power levels, I mostly meant that Kaio-ken would be used in the shortest of bursts, if anything. As for SSJ, I guess it's possible Toriyama will have the Saiyans use it as a maintainable form (if it's even useable for this show), but I feel like it would hurt the tension a little bit...

Problem is that, even if he did, it probably wouldn't work out that much, DB's writing since even vanilla DB had gimmicks as things that you easily overcome until you can brute force against your opponent.

Huh... good point. I just figured that with Toriyama's hints regarding Goku (and possibly the other Z-Fighters) getting disadvantaged in terms of fighting, they'd need to be a little more creative in terms of how they go about defending themselves.

Honestly the de-aging thing is arbitrary, Shin is older than all the other characters combined and he's turned into just a kid, all the much younger characters are just kids too.

I think that Gohan won't be that young, if this takes after Super-Hero he'll be almost 30, if it takes place before BoG, he'll probably be an young adult (Specially if the celebration is his marriage with Videl), but who knows, his absence from the trailer is actually suspicious.

It's also worth pointing out that, if the old Namekian is Kami like some deduced, then it'll make the de-aging even more arbitrary, because Kami isn't even that old.

I guess that's fair. I was just going by how Goku and characters around his age seem to be reduced to elementary school-age(?) and Goten and Trunks (who are confirmed to be far and away younger than everyone, as Heaven only knows what Chiaotzu's whole deal is) are straight-up toddlers, thus when I do some guesswork math and logic, I figure Gohan and Videl would be anywhere around the age of Saiyan/Frieza arc-Gohan or so.

Given the old Namekian (if he IS Kami), I can't help but wonder if being rejoined with Piccolo might "nullify" Kami's involvement regarding Piccolo's de-aging...

They act like the usual babies in that trailer, so they'll probably be useless again, only this time there's a good reason for it.

Also I'm not sure if it was pointed out but, the biggest clue to this being around BoG times is Bulma's hair, since she changes her hair style a lot and never goes back to a previous one, and this is a hair style she used from Buu saga until BoG, though, she's not wearing that red dress, which she did wear in both Buu saga and BoG, but a change of clothes is less noticeable that hair style change...

Well, as I've said regarding Saiyan hybrids and their crazy high potential, at least this situation might not be such an instant fix after all with them all being written out of the story (in a sense).

It's funny though, Bulma's design (combined with everyone looking like they're at Capsule Corp.) was also a tell for me that Daima might be happening IN PLACE OF BoG AND might be some sort of alt. reality where Super never occurred.

[AliTheZombie13]

As for the power level thing, I honestly can't wait to see just how Toriyama decides to handle THAT. This might be a hot take, but a part of me hopes that there WON'T be transformations in Daima, or at the very least, the most Goku and Vegeta will be able to muster is SSJ1. In Goku's case, I particularly hope that Kaio-ken CAN be used, but the risks of using it are far-and-away even MORE of a detriment to him if he decides to over-shoot on it. You know, so he doesn't decide to just use that power through every enemy they come across on this show.

I'd like if he fought smarter as well, after all.

This, this, a million times this.
Give me fight scenes that actually make the characters use their brains.
I'm tired of every resolution to conflict being, "It's okay, guys. My Space X Race Whatever has an ancient ritual that lets me become magically stronger in 2 seconds, I just have to scream a lot!"

[dragonballhero]

As for the power level thing, I honestly can't wait to see just how Toriyama decides to handle THAT. This might be a hot take, but a part of me hopes that there WON'T be transformations in Daima, or at the very least, the most Goku and Vegeta will be able to muster is SSJ1. In Goku's case, I particularly hope that Kaio-ken CAN be used, but the risks of using it are far-and-away even MORE of a detriment to him if he decides to over-shoot on it. You know, so he doesn't decide to just use that power through every enemy they come across on this show.

I'd like if he fought smarter as well, after all.

This, this, a million times this.
Give me fight scenes that actually make the characters use their brains.
I'm tired of every resolution to conflict being, "It's okay, guys. My Space X Race Whatever has an ancient ritual that lets me become magically stronger in 2 seconds, I just have to scream a lot!"

Hey, thanks! I'm hoping Toriyama's hint that Goku and the others needing to work a bit differently in battle plays out. Like, maybe Goku and Vegeta's younger bodies combined with SSJ1 alone causes them to run low on power even faster and Kaio-ken... well, I imagine Goku's younger body would have quite the time trying to maintain just KKx2...

I have to admit, I know Bio-Broly... isn't exactly looked at with favor among most of the DB community, but I kind of appreciate it because Goten and Trunks were (for the most part) forced to use their heads to stop him from poisoning the whole planet, rather than rely on the 'heavy-hitters' (i.e. Gohan, Vegeta, and/or Piccolo) to solve the problem for them.

[Lukmendes]

Yeah, in my eyes? Marron especially currently looking identical to how she did in the Majin Buu arc was one of the first indicators for me that Toriyama's beginning to address his regrets over aging the cast as much as he did. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised he HASN'T done something to explain that plothole away. Maybe something like 'her mom was cybernetically altered and those altered genes affected her as well' or something.

This would effectively be just the "saiyans stay at a specific age until a sudden growth spurt" used for Goten and Trunks.

Then again, as insignificant as Marron currently is? I can totally see Toriyama just BARELY remembering 'Oh, yeah... Krillin and #18 have a kid, don't they? Eh, not like I have plans for her anyways. No one'll notice if she still looks like a toddler, right?'

With how distracted he can be he might've forgotten she exists, not unlike what happened to Lunch.

It's actually hilarious how Toriyama is an example of someone who doesn't need that much knowledge of the world to properly write it, because apparently back in BoG he thought 18 was purple haired and forgot Super Saiyan 2 exists, which are ridiculous things to forget about, but since DB is his own little world, he really knows how to add to that world.

Regarding everyone else's de-aging, I think it'll be either end of the spectrum. Either things truly go back to normal and everyone returns to their original ages, no strings attached or... something happens that results in the whole cast having to re-grow up naturally (like Goku more or less chose to do in GT).

I'll still keep the possibility that they might be aged up but younger than before in mind, at least this way we can move past EoZ and actually do weird things that can shake the status quo for an arc instead of always having to make sure it'll line up with EoZ.

Regarding power levels, I mostly meant that Kaio-ken would be used in the shortest of bursts, if anything. As for SSJ, I guess it's possible Toriyama will have the Saiyans use it as a maintainable form (if it's even useable for this show), but I feel like it would hurt the tension a little bit...

Then thing is that Kaioken is just worthless in general if you have SS1, because it's weaker, more damaging to your body and even harder to maintain than SS3.

So for Kaioken to be useable, either SS1 will have to become magically weaker, or not be there at all, otherwise Goku will be just be acting like a dumbass using an inferior, damaging power up for no reason, and while he does that in stuff like Cooler's movie, under Toriyama he just abandoned it and even freely transforms into SS for any random fight.

Huh... good point. I just figured that with Toriyama's hints regarding Goku (and possibly the other Z-Fighters) getting disadvantaged in terms of fighting, they'd need to be a little more creative in terms of how they go about defending themselves.

It's possible, it's just that Toriyama's fights are never really that complex to begin with, probably the most complex fight we ever got was Jackie Chun vs Goku, and 23rd tournament Goku vs Piccolo but that was about it.

Hopefully Goku doesn't rely too much on gimmicks if he's weaker now, since back in vanilla DB he could see through them rather easily, then started to see through them even more easily after training with Popo (Which's one of the things that made me realize Popo is Goku's most underrated teacher), but Toriyama has a bad habit of dumbing down Goku just so he can relearn the same lessons and even some others...

I guess that's fair. I was just going by how Goku and characters around his age seem to be reduced to elementary school-age(?) and Goten and Trunks (who are confirmed to be far and away younger than everyone, as Heaven only knows what Chiaotzu's whole deal is) are straight-up toddlers, thus when I do some guesswork math and logic, I figure Gohan and Videl would be anywhere around the age of Saiyan/Frieza arc-Gohan or so.

Honestly Goku looks like the current way Toriyama draws him as a kid, meaning he looks taller but skinnier.

Given the old Namekian (if he IS Kami), I can't help but wonder if being rejoined with Piccolo might "nullify" Kami's involvement regarding Piccolo's de-aging...

Possibly, and I can see Kami not wanting to fuse again even if it did, a wish Piccolo would respect.

Though it's also possible that the older Namekian is someone from New Namek.

Hell, a theory I have is that, if this is a Namekian from New Namek, it could be the characters contacting them to use the dragon balls from there to age them back up, but it can't be done for a reason or another. I suspect that, if this is after Super-Hero, Shenlong became too strong once Dende threw water at him, so Porunga can't undo his wishes (And if so, they'd better explain why they can't just throw water at Porunga to buff him up).

Well, as I've said regarding Saiyan hybrids and their crazy high potential, at least this situation might not be such an instant fix after all with them all being written out of the story (in a sense).

Yeah Goten and Trunks will be useless, the question is what's up with Gohan.

It's funny though, Bulma's design (combined with everyone looking like they're at Capsule Corp.) was also a tell for me that Daima might be happening IN PLACE OF BoG AND might be some sort of alt. reality where Super never occurred.

It is a possibility, but I doubt Toriyama will dive into alternate continuities, it seems like he follows his own and doesn't care about creating another... Who knows though, the lack of dialogue and the vagueness of these scenes were probably meant to keep fans discussing what the hell is going on overall.

This, this, a million times this.
Give me fight scenes that actually make the characters use their brains.
I'm tired of every resolution to conflict being, "It's okay, guys. My Space X Race Whatever has an ancient ritual that lets me become magically stronger in 2 seconds, I just have to scream a lot!"

We only got two ancient rituals, and only one actually helped in defeating the villain lol (Even then, Goku didn't even defeat Beerus technically, but amused him enough that he decided to not destroy Earth).

Hey, thanks! I'm hoping Toriyama's hint that Goku and the others needing to work a bit differently in battle plays out. Like, maybe Goku and Vegeta's younger bodies combined with SSJ1 alone causes them to run low on power even faster and Kaio-ken... well, I imagine Goku's younger body would have quite the time trying to maintain just KKx2...

If Goku using Power Pole isn't just nostalgia bait, there might be something at least.

I have to admit, I know Bio-Broly... isn't exactly looked at with favor among most of the DB community, but I kind of appreciate it because Goten and Trunks were (for the most part) forced to use their heads to stop him from poisoning the whole planet, rather than rely on the 'heavy-hitters' (i.e. Gohan, Vegeta, and/or Piccolo) to solve the problem for them.

Man I keep forgetting that movie exists... I remember watching it and not liking it, but maybe I should rewatch to re-evaluate my opinion on it, because I used to not like BoG since it has meh pacing, and a stupid transformation, but it adds more to DB's world... While still having meh pacing and a stupid transformation, though at least I understand that Goku not liking how it's obtained is part of the point.

[AliTheZombie13]

We only got two ancient rituals, and only one actually helped in defeating the villain lol (Even then, Goku didn't even defeat Beerus technically, but amused him enough that he decided to not destroy Earth).

I didn't mean a literal ritual, I mean any sort of transformation that turns the conflict around.

Namek Saga = Freeza makes everyone his ragdoll, and when it seems they make him their ragdoll back, Freeza transforms and makes them his ragdoll again. Goku then transforms, Freeza becomes the ragdoll.
Cell Saga = Freeza/#19/#18/Cell makes everyone their ragdoll, Trunks/Vegeta/Gohan transforms, they become the ragdoll.
Beerus Saga = Beerus makes everyone his ragdoll, Goku transforms, Beerus is amused enough and leaves.
Resurrection F Saga = Freeza transforms and makes everyone his ragdoll again, Goku and Vegeta transform even further than before, Freeza becomes the ragdoll.
Universe 6 Saga = Everyone except Hit sucked to begin with, because Goku and Vegeta had transformations that they kept themselves from using.
Goku Black Saga = Black/Zamasu makes everyone his ragdoll, million transformations ensue, but none work anyway.
Tournament of Power Saga = Jiren makes everyone his ragdoll, million transformations ensue, they defeat Jiren.
Super Hero Saga = Gammas make Piccolo their ragdoll, Piccolo transforms, they become the ragdoll. Cell Max shows up, makes everyone their ragdoll, Gohan transforms, Cell Max dies.

And this is where you argue,
"But wait, there were other factors that contributed to their defeat!"

“That’s what I wanted to do in the Freeza arc… Once Goku gave that look, as far as I was concerned the story arc was over. I was like, 'They have to start fighting now? What a pain!'” - Toriyama

But even the author himself knows, as soon as somebody transforms, it's over.

[Lukmendes]

I didn't mean a literal ritual, I mean any sort of transformation that turns the conflict around.

Namek Saga = Freeza makes everyone his ragdoll, and when it seems they make him their ragdoll back, Freeza transforms and makes them his ragdoll again. Goku then transforms, Freeza becomes the ragdoll.
Cell Saga = Freeza/#19/#18/Cell makes everyone their ragdoll, Trunks/Vegeta/Gohan transforms, they become the ragdoll.
Beerus Saga = Beerus makes everyone his ragdoll, Goku transforms, Beerus is amused enough and leaves.
Resurrection F Saga = Freeza transforms and makes everyone his ragdoll again, Goku and Vegeta transform even further than before, Freeza becomes the ragdoll.
Universe 6 Saga = Everyone except Hit sucked to begin with, because Goku and Vegeta had transformations that they kept themselves from using.
Goku Black Saga = Black/Zamasu makes everyone his ragdoll, million transformations ensue, but none work anyway.
Tournament of Power Saga = Jiren makes everyone his ragdoll, million transformations ensue, they defeat Jiren.
Super Hero Saga = Gammas make Piccolo their ragdoll, Piccolo transforms, they become the ragdoll. Cell Max shows up, makes everyone their ragdoll, Gohan transforms, Cell Max dies.

And this is where you argue,
"But wait, there were other factors that contributed to their defeat!"

“That’s what I wanted to do in the Freeza arc… Once Goku gave that look, as far as I was concerned the story arc was over. I was like, 'They have to start fighting now? What a pain!'” - Toriyama

But even the author himself knows, as soon as somebody transforms, it's over.

I took it as a literal ritual since, DB has had a bunch of them and their track record is spotty, basically split in the middle lol.

But fair enough, I see your point, while DB has a few times where the transformations don't work (Like Vegeta's/Trunks' muscled up forms not being strong enough against Perfect Cell, SS3 being mostly useless, and Gohan's unlocked potential technically making things worse), cases like those are the exception.

Though while not exactly transformations, the poisoned water from King Piccolo's arc more or less follows the patterns that transformations would later have, and it's always funny to notice how some of a series' problems were there since early on in some way.

[dragonballhero]

This would effectively be just the "Saiyans stay at a specific age until a sudden growth spurt" used for Goten and Trunks.

Yeah, pretty much.

With how distracted he can be he might've forgotten she exists, not unlike what happened to Lunch.

It's actually hilarious how Toriyama is an example of someone who doesn't need that much knowledge of the world to properly write it, because apparently back in BoG he thought 18 was purple haired and forgot Super Saiyan 2 exists, which are ridiculous things to forget about, but since DB is his own little world, he really knows how to add to that world.

Frankly, it's this forgetfulness that makes me AMAZED at some of the stuff he's remembered over the years (such as Marron's very existence).

By the way, I've heard quite a lot about #18's hair being purple and him forgetting SSJ2 exists, but are there, like... recorded instances of this?

Not that I don't believe you, but I just HAVE to see this for myself. Someone like Toriyama? I'll give him forgetting SSJ2 exists, considering how for nearly everyone BUT Cell-arc Gohan, the design barely changes a Saiyan's design.

I'll still keep the possibility that they might be aged up but younger than before in mind, at least this way we can move past EoZ and actually do weird things that can shake the status quo for an arc instead of always having to make sure it'll line up with EoZ.

Well, hopefully we'll get to see whether Daima's ending shakes up the status quo or not, now that Toriyama's finally tackling an idea he's clearly wanted to try out for a while now.

Then thing is that Kaioken is just worthless in general if you have SS1, because it's weaker, more damaging to your body and even harder to maintain than SS3.

So for Kaioken to be useable, either SS1 will have to become magically weaker, or not be there at all, otherwise Goku will be just be acting like a dumbass using an inferior, damaging power up for no reason, and while he does that in stuff like Cooler's movie, under Toriyama he just abandoned it and even freely transforms into SS for any random fight.

You know, I was checking over my previous posts and I realized there's something I kept forgetting to mention in them. What I forgot to mention was that I feel like SSJ will need to be 'reacquired' by the Saiyans. With them being kids again, they might be 'locked out' from accessing SSJ freely.

THAT'S why I brought up Kaio-ken. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand the fact that next to SSJ, it's virtually useless, but I figured that if Goku comes across any really tough enemies and SSJ is not accessible at the time, THEN Kaio-ken should be a last resort, as I imagine that the power-up would put even MORE strain on his body than ever did when he was an adult.

It's possible, it's just that Toriyama's fights are never really that complex to begin with, probably the most complex fight we ever got was Jackie Chun vs Goku, and 23rd tournament Goku vs Piccolo but that was about it.

Hopefully Goku doesn't rely too much on gimmicks if he's weaker now, since back in vanilla DB he could see through them rather easily, then started to see through them even more easily after training with Popo (Which's one of the things that made me realize Popo is Goku's most underrated teacher), but Toriyama has a bad habit of dumbing down Goku just so he can relearn the same lessons and even some others...

I mean, I should probably mention that the fights don't HAVE to have some crazy gimmick to them or anything. It'd just be interesting to see DB tackle a fight where brute force isn't the ONLY answer.

I guess that's fair. I was just going by how Goku and characters around his age seem to be reduced to elementary school-age(?) and Goten and Trunks (who are confirmed to be far and away younger than everyone, as Heaven only knows what Chiaotzu's whole deal is) are straight-up toddlers, thus when I do some guesswork math and logic, I figure Gohan and Videl would be anywhere around the age of Saiyan/Frieza arc-Gohan or so.

Honestly, Goku looks like the current way Toriyama draws him as a kid, meaning he looks taller but skinnier.

I know, it's just... given Gohan and Videl's relative ages to folks like Goku, Chi-Chi, Vegeta and Bulma, I'd imagine they wouldn't be outright babies, but they'd still considerably younger than them.

Possibly, and I can see Kami not wanting to fuse again even if it did, a wish Piccolo would respect.

Though it's also possible that the older Namekian is someone from New Namek.

Hell, a theory I have is that, if this is a Namekian from New Namek, it could be the characters contacting them to use the dragon balls from there to age them back up, but it can't be done for a reason or another. I suspect that, if this is after Super-Hero, Shenlong became too strong once Dende threw water at him, so Porunga can't undo his wishes (And if so, they'd better explain why they can't just throw water at Porunga to buff him up).

On one hand, it'd be neat to see Kami again (and for Dende to finally meet his predecessor), but at the same time, I wonder what Kami would be left to do, if he does somehow get freed from Piccolo. Like, would he be to Dende what the Old Kai currently is to Shin?

I forgot to mention that I've seen folks claim that it might be Zalama (i.e. THE creator of the general Dragon Ball concept), and given Toriyama's claim that Daima will be addressing a good deal of the franchise's lore...

Yeah Goten and Trunks will be useless, the question is what's up with Gohan.

EXACTLY. I have to wonder what's Gohan's deal and Daima conspicuously not mentioning him.

I mean, Toriyama's given hints that part of why we don't see Gohan in much stuff anymore is because he feels like he completed his character arc and he's not good with writing such selfless, goody two-shoes characters anyway, but still... I doubt he's totally written off of this show.

I just think that, at worst, perhaps he'll also be de-aged or be left to take care of everyone who isn't traveling with Goku to fix this problem.

It is a possibility, but I doubt Toriyama will dive into alternate continuities, it seems like he follows his own and doesn't care about creating another... Who knows though, the lack of dialogue and the vagueness of these scenes were probably meant to keep fans discussing what the hell is going on overall.

Fair point...

If Goku using Power Pole isn't just nostalgia bait, there might be something at least.

I won't get my hopes up TOO high, because there's still the possibility that Daima could pull a GT on us, and render the Power Pole useless...

Man I keep forgetting that movie exists... I remember watching it and not liking it, but maybe I should rewatch to re-evaluate my opinion on it, because I used to not like BoG since it has meh pacing, and a stupid transformation, but it adds more to DB's world... While still having meh pacing and a stupid transformation, though at least I understand that Goku not liking how it's obtained is part of the point.

You should give it another watch. Honestly, I don't know what everyone's complaining about. Bio-Broly isn't a masterpiece, but people act like it gave them and their relative food poisoning. It's honestly not THAT bad of a movie, and with so many folks these days are griping about Goku and Vegeta taking the spotlight from their kids, I'd think this movie would be a nice little break from them.

[Lukmendes]

Frankly, it's this forgetfulness that makes me AMAZED at some of the stuff he's remembered over the years (such as Marron's very existence).

Yeah, and the god ki stuff is the one that impresses me the most lol.

By the way, I've heard quite a lot about #18's hair being purple and him forgetting SSJ2 exists, but are there, like... recorded instances of this?

Not that I don't believe you, but I just HAVE to see this for myself. Someone like Toriyama? I'll give him forgetting SSJ2 exists, considering how for nearly everyone BUT Cell-arc Gohan, the design barely changes a Saiyan's design.

For the SS2 one:

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

"Do you write down notes anywhere for that sort of background information?
No, I don’t do that. That’s why I keep on forgetting things. If I don’t forget stuff, new ideas won’t come to mind. For example, you know how there’s “Super Saiyan 3”?

Yes. Where the hair gets long.
I didn’t know that. (laughs) The whole time, I thought that was “Super Saiyan 2”. (laughs)"

The 18 one, I think there was an art he drew with 18 being purple haired, which I can't find, but in this same interview he says he doesn't really pay attention to women's hair color:

"I am not at all particular about things like hair styles and colors. Especially with women, changing their hairstyle or color is a bit too commonplace, don’t you think? With people like Bulma, I actually don’t even know myself what their natural hair color is. (laughs)"

Him not being particular about hair styles explains the incomprehensible disaster that is Trunks' hair color. Purple in the manga's covers and anime, stayed that way with kid Trunks in Super, then Future Trunks has blue hair, which eventually Super Hero used with Trunks... Only for fat Gotenks to have parts of his hair be purple... And now Daima's baby Trunks has purple hair.

But anyways, I'm sure Kanzenshuu has something that shows purple haired 18 art he did, all I can find is this eventhubs link:

https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2018/apr ... ttle-gods/

Which's what led back to the interview Kanzenshuu translated lol.

Well, hopefully we'll get to see whether Daima's ending shakes up the status quo or not, now that Toriyama's finally tackling an idea he's clearly wanted to try out for a while now.

Yeah I honestly hope it's post EoZ just so we don't have to deal with that status quo anymore lol.

You know, I was checking over my previous posts and I realized there's something I kept forgetting to mention in them. What I forgot to mention was that I feel like SSJ will need to be 'reacquired' by the Saiyans. With them being kids again, they might be 'locked out' from accessing SSJ freely.

THAT'S why I brought up Kaio-ken. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand the fact that next to SSJ, it's virtually useless, but I figured that if Goku comes across any really tough enemies and SSJ is not accessible at the time, THEN Kaio-ken should be a last resort, as I imagine that the power-up would put even MORE strain on his body than ever did when he was an adult.

Yeah that makes sense.

I don't mind them having to re-acquire SS, but the plot will have to contrive a way to prevent them from getting it for a while (Like say, not giving them time to train), because even if they can't access it anymore, they still know how to get it again, with, y'know, tingly backs lol.

I mean, I should probably mention that the fights don't HAVE to have some crazy gimmick to them or anything. It'd just be interesting to see DB tackle a fight where brute force isn't the ONLY answer.

Well, maybe it'll happen this time around, though I'll have my doubts, 99% of DB fights are just the villain going "Haha, you don't even have any power" and the opponent goes like "Oh yeah? Check out this power!", which, either makes the villain be trounced or them going like "Fool, your power is no match for my power".

I know, it's just... given Gohan and Videl's relative ages to folks like Goku, Chi-Chi, Vegeta and Bulma, I'd imagine they wouldn't be outright babies, but they'd still considerably younger than them.

I think Gohan can be just young enough for a kid Chichi to go all maternal with him again and not letting him fight .

On one hand, it'd be neat to see Kami again (and for Dende to finally meet his predecessor), but at the same time, I wonder what Kami would be left to do, if he does somehow get freed from Piccolo. Like, would he be to Dende what the Old Kai currently is to Shin?

I honestly hope not, Dende has been Kami for at the bare minimum 7 years whenever this Daima takes place, and at least 17 years if the movie is after EoZ, and it could look annoying for Dende to look more incompetent so Kami's knowledge can be propped up, which's what happens a lot with old Kaionshin and Shin.

I forgot to mention that I've seen folks claim that it might be Zalama (i.e. THE creator of the general Dragon Ball concept), and given Toriyama's claim that Daima will be addressing a good deal of the franchise's lore...

The way Champa talks about the Super Dragon Balls gave me the impression that he's not a Namekian, since he talks like someone else created them and that Namekians copied them, so I have my doubts.

EXACTLY. I have to wonder what's Gohan's deal and Daima conspicuously not mentioning him.

I mean, Toriyama's given hints that part of why we don't see Gohan in much stuff anymore is because he feels like he completed his character arc and he's not good with writing such selfless, goody two-shoes characters anyway, but still... I doubt he's totally written off of this show.

I just think that, at worst, perhaps he'll also be de-aged or be left to take care of everyone who isn't traveling with Goku to fix this problem.

Considering that it was talked about Super-Hero being made primarily as a Piccolo story, which others had to insist to Toriyama for him to do more with Gohan, I won't be surprised if Daima decides to sideline him.

Though now that I think of it, I do wonder if Piccolo will do stuff...

I won't get my hopes up TOO high, because there's still the possibility that Daima could pull a GT on us, and render the Power Pole useless...

Honestly I get the feeling that even if it's useful, it'll only be around for an arc or two.

You should give it another watch. Honestly, I don't know what everyone's complaining about. Bio-Broly isn't a masterpiece, but people act like it gave them and their relative food poisoning. It's honestly not THAT bad of a movie, and with so many folks these days are griping about Goku and Vegeta taking the spotlight from their kids, I'd think this movie would be a nice little break from them.

I just remember not really caring about the story or the fights, so I was pretty bored with the movie until it ended.

Also Bio-Broly is a stupid name. Original Broly is already a biological being... Maybe if they did something like making him robotic. Cyborg Broly... Surprised they never did that, not even in Heroes.

[sangofe]

https://dbgbh.bn-ent.net/en/

Dragon Ball Daima will be at the games battle hour in January 2024.

[super michael]

I want to point out that Dende was a kid when Gohan was a kid, therefore I assume they are similar age.

Piccolo is only a few years older than Gohan.

[ZeroNeonix]

I don't think Piccolo Jr's rapid growth is typical of his species. Since he has the memories of King Piccolo, I think he just quickly grew to adulthood to catch up with his mind. Dende, on the other hand, is just smol.

[LoganForkHands73]

Just noticed, but was Karin affected by the wish? Obviously it's hard to tell, but he doesn't look any different. Shouldn't he be a lil kitten? (=˃ᆺ˂=)

[AliTheZombie13]

I think only those at the party were affected... Maybe?