Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

What a crazy scene... Freeza is giving orders to Bojack, and Bojack is following those orders!!... and Gohan goes straight for Freeza, while leaving the much stronger Bojack alone...

[Mr Perfect Cell]

Maybe Frieza trained in hell in this timeline too but got too cocky to go gold which is why Gohan beat him.

[Grimlock]

Confirmation that the Kaioshin of South is the strongest, but only out of the four.

There were, of course, people who thought he was stronger than even Dai Kaioshin, which shouldn't be the case. And it isn't, as we can see. Glad we can finally put that to rest.

[Koitsukai]

Was that ever in dispute, though?
Moro arc and filler episode aside, it was SKS the cause of Buff Buu who was said to be even stronger than Super Buu. DKS actually fought and survived Buff Buu and managed to reduce his power greatly.
Whoever thought otherwise wasn't paying any attention, DKS fought Buu+SKS and pushed "them" to the point Buu needed to absorb him.

[LightBing]

Based on the manga it's South > All other Kaioshins > current Kaioshin. The strongest and the weakest is specifically highlighted, why should we think otherwise?

Boo could have absorbed Dai Kaioshin for a number of reasons besides power. After all it absorbed Piccolo for "brains".
The most likely reason was for control, since Boo changed with absorptions. It's pretty much implied:

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s)…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

The above is all the information provide regarding the Kaioshins, everything else is speculation.

[Grimlock]

Was that ever in dispute, though?

Yes, that was always in dispute. Plus the above post.

Sure, the way Kaioshin of East said it could imply Dai Kaioshin to be involved. But I always thought he was excluding Dai Kaioshin, for obvious reasons. He is one step above them in the hierarchy, it should be expected that he should be above them all in power level as well, even if "subvert the expectations" is common practice in this franchise. Anyways, like I said, glad this is finally over.

[Koitsukai]

Was that ever in dispute, though?

Yes, that was always in dispute. Plus the above post.

Sure, the way Kaioshin of East said it could imply Dai Kaioshin to be involved. But I always thought he was excluding Dai Kaioshin, for obvious reasons. He is one step above them in the hierarchy, it should be expected that he should be above them all in power level as well, even if "subvert the expectations" is common practice in this franchise. Anyways, like I said, glad this is finally over.

Right, there's a "boss" to them, and the "boss" stood up to that other KS fused with Buu. He would've died otherwise. Buu kills, and only absorbs when he is against the wall*, that's his thing, that's what Vegito exploited, that's a major character trait used to move the story forward. So, if DKS forced Buff Buu to absorb him then it means Buu + SKS aren't enough to take him out.

*The filler messes it up because Buu beats SKS but absorbs him anyway, but in the manga you can interpret SKS = Kid Buu, and Buff Buu = DKS, thus DKS > SKS.

In any case, the Moro arc proved that at his peak he was waaay above every KS, including Zamasu. Even after losing his magic, he is still too strong to die at the hands of Buff Buu.

[Hugo Boss]

I don’t see any issue with thinking that Grand Kaioshin could be the strongest among the five Kaioshins based on the level of his importance, but the original dialogue [at least going by Herms’ translation] does suggest he is being considered among the five Kaioshins with whom South Kaioshin was being compared with, unless you think there is a fifth Kaioshin we don’t know about.

[LightBing]

It's ironic how people give him such importance because he's the Dai Kaioshin, when the whole arc and Dragon Ball in general disregards titles and Gods.

Shortly before the part we're talking about the Elder Kai appeared, with Goku doing the mistake a lot of people are making. It resulted him in blasting him in the face because: "amazing must mean power". Turns out he had a completely different ability, he wasn't duper strong just because he was a Kaioshin.

That said I'm not using information from the Super manga. Don't remember if anything might contradict the original manga.

[Koitsukai]

It's not about their titles, it's about what was accomplished. He fought, offscreen, the strongest KS fused with Majin Buu and got himself absorbed, not killed like the other two KS.
Was it due to his leftover magic? his brute strenght? doesn't matter, Buu failed to kill him even with the assist of SKS's power. The title is just there to say after the fact: "right, yeah, it makes sense coming from the guy above the gods".

The Moro arc expands on him a little bit putting him way ahead of every other KS in the multiverse.

[LightBing]

But Kaioshin literally says who is the strongest and the weakest.
It's also heavily implied he was absorbed to be easier to control; Bibidi was calling the shots at the time. Even if the latter wasn't there Boo was shown to absorb people for reasons other than power: Piccolo.

Only taking the source material into account it's pretty clear.

If you add other sources, sure. Super constantly re-imagined the original manga.

[Koitsukai]

But Kaioshin literally says who is the strongest and the weakest.
It's also heavily implied he was absorbed to be easier to control; Bibidi was calling the shots at the time. Even if the latter wasn't there Boo was shown to absorb people for reasons other than power: Piccolo.

Only taking the source material into account it's pretty clear.

If you add other sources, sure. Super constantly re-imagined the original manga.

Whatever is said is superseded by the actual events.
Buu absorbed Piccolo as part of his plan to surpass Gohan, to isolate him, to use his brains because Gotenks was too dumb, and also as a back up plan in the event the power boost failed and he needed something else, like he actually ended up needing.
It falls into the "against the wall" cathegory that prompts Buu to absorb people, Gohan was too powerful to just absorb Gotenks, Piccolo was absorbed as a mean to beat Gohan.
Buu absorbing DKS because Bibidi said so is your headcanon, I don't even think it's the takeway from the filler scene, Bibidi had no idea what to expect.

If Buu failed to beat SKS, and then the much stronger Buu (SKS-absorbed) fails to beat DKS... wouldn't you agree that Kid Buu would have a tougher time against DKS than he did vs SKS?

Other sources like DBS come from the horses mouth and is valid to use to shed some light, because it's actually consistent with how DKS performed vs Buu and SKS.

[Hugo Boss]

Grand Kaioshin capabilities are a bit confusing in Super though. When he fought Moro at full power, he had no means of beating him without sealing his magic and sacrificing most of his god power in the process. Despite that, Oob didn’t inherit 100% of his god power and was able to feed Goku with enough energy to enable him to activate a level of Ultra Instinct that far outstripped Moro. So, where was all that power when he fought Moro millions of years before? Just a thought.

[LightBing]

But Kaioshin literally says who is the strongest and the weakest.
It's also heavily implied he was absorbed to be easier to control; Bibidi was calling the shots at the time. Even if the latter wasn't there Boo was shown to absorb people for reasons other than power: Piccolo.

Only taking the source material into account it's pretty clear.

If you add other sources, sure. Super constantly re-imagined the original manga.

Whatever is said is superseded by the actual events.
Buu absorbed Piccolo as part of his plan to surpass Gohan, to isolate him, to use his brains because Gotenks was too dumb, and also as a back up plan in the event the power boost failed and he needed something else, like he actually ended up needing.
It falls into the "against the wall" cathegory that prompts Buu to absorb people, Gohan was too powerful to just absorb Gotenks, Piccolo was absorbed as a mean to beat Gohan.
Buu absorbing DKS because Bibidi said so is your headcanon, I don't even think it's the takeway from the filler scene, Bibidi had no idea what to expect.

If Buu failed to beat SKS, and then the much stronger Buu (SKS-absorbed) fails to beat DKS... wouldn't you agree that Kid Buu would have a tougher time against DKS than he did vs SKS?

Other sources like DBS come from the horses mouth and is valid to use to shed some light, because it's actually consistent with how DKS performed vs Buu and SKS.

I don't take into account anything outside the manga, unless it has a clear hand from the author. The filler in the anime is pure imagination.
Apologies if I was not clear.

The Super manga, I'll believe it. If you tell me to look at the manga sure and I'll concede that's a current truth.
I still maintain that it's a rewrite from the original manga, from which there's only those lines I quoted a few posts back, which are simple and straight forward.

[Noah]

An old question here with you all: how do glaring power gaps between one character and another work in this series after all? I've read here that a difference of 33% is enough for one individual to wipe the floor with another.

But there are battles where the gape are MUCH larger than that and the disadvantaged party isn't disintegrated right away (cases like Base Vegeta vs. Pure Boo). So how do you think things work? Would Namek SSJ Goku still need to dodge the attacks from Saiyan arc Vegeta or could he afford to take hits head-on without feeling any damage? And Vegeta? Could he endure for so long with such a colossal difference between them?

[Koitsukai]

An old question here with you all: how do glaring power gaps between one character and another work in this series after all? I've read here that a difference of 33% is enough for one individual to wipe the floor with another.

But there are battles where the gape are MUCH larger than that and the disadvantaged party isn't disintegrated right away (cases like Base Vegeta vs. Pure Boo). So how do you think things work? Would Namek SSJ Goku still need to dodge the attacks from Saiyan arc Vegeta or could he afford to take hits head-on without feeling any damage? And Vegeta? Could he endure for so long with such a colossal difference between them?

Probably, the gaps aren't as big as we make them out to be, I mean there are plenty of examples of us being wrong (Piccolo SSB level, saiyans surpassing Freeza in base, and so on), and there could've been others that were never addressed we have no idea about.
But some can be explained by the villain's personality, Kid Buu totally fits the bill of the guy that will lower his power just to have fun with his toy and not break it. Freeza too, pounding on a semi-KO'd Vegeta.

SS Goku tanked 5th form Cooler's punch, so he would not need to dodge any saiyan arc characters, mind you that was Toei's doing, something he couldn't do on Namek vs Freeza. I guess SS Goku could lower his power and have some fun with Scouter Vegeta, but I guess that's not up to Vegeta.

[Hugo Boss]

I generally attribute that to plot convenience, since it’s part of the dramatic nature of fighting shows. One Punch Man pretty much is a parody of that. If characters fight half seriously there is practically no story to be told.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I never really watched SDBH, but the idea of DBS and GT characters scaling to each other is very interesting to me so I decided to see if it works.

Xeno Goku is from years after the Evil Dragons Saga while CC Goku is from right after the ToP, so the SSJ4 we see in GT is probably only comparable to SSJB fighters from prior sagas.

So if SSJB = SSJ4, then I imagine SSJG would be somewhere in Baby Vegeta's ballpark? and Ultra FP SSJ4 should be in Blue KK level. SSJ4 Gogeta would logically be Vegetto Blue level, which I have far below Gogeta Blue since Goku and Vegeta are much stronger vs Broly than vs Zamasu. Omega Shenlong probably falls somewhere in UI Sign tier.

But that's just me spitballing. Let's see if I actually get to those numbers.

OBS: Don't bother bringing me calculations about how SSJG Goku's punch had a force of 19860731x10^1169 and was going to destroy the multiomniverse so he kills SSJ4 Vegetto with his aura. All that fight shows is that Goku had bad Ki control, lol. People infinitely above SSJG Goku didn't have this problem in the same series. And it's not because no one in GT did this that they can't do this.

Part 1: Finding SSJ4 = SSJB

Spoiler:

IIRC this is something that's something we actually see in SDBH, with both Gokus fighting evenly in base and in their best forms with no clear winner.

It's commonly agreed that SSJG was nerfed post BoG. The anime makes it a complete afterthought, so I think 2x SSJ3 is about enough. SSJB is obviously 50x SSJG.

Base: 1
SSJ: 50
SSJ2: 100
SSJ3: 400
SSJG: 1,000 (2.5x SSJ3 to make the numbers neat).
SSJB: 50,000

So SSJ4 will also be 50,000x base. Let's see how this works in the Baby Vegeta fight.

SSJ3 Goku: 400
~ Golden Oozaru: 4,000
~ SSJ4: 50,000

Baby Vegeta: 450 (Same 1.125x gap Vegeta had over KKx2 Goku. Goku can barely compete, and his stamina only makes it worse)
~ Strongest Form 1: 900
~ Strongest Form 2: 3,600
~ Golden Oozaru: 36,000

SSJ4 Goku fought evenly with GOBV at first, but when the others healed him and he unlocked his full power Baby was easily defeated. I think this is perfect.

Now it's doing the actual power levels. I'l use 1 = 1 billion to avoid the zeroes. First I'll do a truncated list for Super:

Scaling DBS

Spoiler:

SSJ3 Goku (Boo Saga): 36
SSJ3 Gotenks/Super Boo: 60 (Smaller multipliers for fusion, again for simplicity)
Ultimate Gohan: 90
Gotenks-Boo: 120
Gohan-Boo: 150

Vegetto: 144
~ SSJ: 360

SSJ3 Goku (BoG): 40 (Considered the strongest because Gotenks is retarded and Gohan is rusty)

Vegetto (BoG, estimated): 160
~ SSJ: 400
~ SSJ3: 1,000 (Important to measure SSJG)

SSJG Goku: 2,000
~ SSJ: 2,500 (Said he absorbed and surpassed SSJG when he fought in SSJ)
~ Base: 50

Goku (RoF): 80
~ SSJB: 4,000,000

Freeza (RoF): 5.3
~ True form (70%): 84
~ Golden form: 4,800,000

Goku (U6/Early FT Saga): 100 (This is when Copy Vegeta tanks and one shots SSJ3 Gotenks. Best Base feat in DBS?)
~ SSJB: 5,000,000

SSJR Goku Black: 6,250,000 (1.25x is the perfect gap for when the weaker guy is kinda keeping up but not really)

Enraged Goku/Enraged Trunks/Zenkai Black: 7,500,000

SSJB Vegeta (Post Rosat): 10,000,000 (Goku will reach this power vs Merged Zamasu too somehow)
SSJR Black (Peak): 15,000,000

Merged Zamasu: 10,000,000,000

Vegetto: 200,000,000 (Will explain fusion base power in DBSB)
~ SSJB: 10,000,000,000 (I like to have SSJB = 50x for fusion as a nod to how SSJB was going to replace SSJ)

Toppo: 10,000,000

SSJB Goku (ToP): 10,000,000
~ KKx20: 200,000,000
~ Genki-Dama: 400,000,000
~ UIO: 1,000,000,000

Jiren (Initial): 1,000,000,000 (Shin and Beerus were talking about his hidden FP)

Kefla: 8,000,000
~ SSJ: 400,000,000 (Compared to Genki-Dama)
~ SSJ2 (Beyond limits): 2,000,000,000 (Could've killed 2nd UIO Goku)

SSJB Goku (Mid ToP): 20,000,000 (Said multiple times to be getting stronger)
~ KKx20: 400,000,000 (Said to be = Kefla)
~ UIO: 2,000,000,000

Hakaishin Toppo: 1,000,000,000
Jiren (Serious): 10,000,000,000

SSJB Goku (End of ToP): 50,000,000
~ KKx20: 1,000,000,000
~ UIO: 5,000,000,000
~ MUI: 25,000,000,000 (Definitely the strongest mortal)

Jiren (FP): 20,000,000,000 (Strongest guy ever)
~ Limit Breaker: 24,000,000,000 (Put up a much better fight vs Goku)

Broly doesn't matter, but I'll add him to explain why I have base fusion 20x SSJB

Broly: 45,000,000
~ SSJ: 2,250,000,000
~ LSSJ: 30,000,000,000

Gogeta: 900,000,000 (90% of Gogeta. So weaker, but close enough for some ppl to ignore the gap)
~ SSJ: 2,250,000,000
~ SSJB: 45,000,000,000

You see? SSJ Fusion = 50x Individual SSJB. Since I give fusion a 2.5x SSJ multiplier, that puts base fusion at 20x SSJB.

And that's it. Phew. DBS characters get power ups left and right, meanwhile GT is very stagnant. It's easy to see why it takes a Goku from after GT to match DBS Goku.

But GT has one advantage: BoGT Goku starts very strong. It's all but confirmed he's stronger than Majin Boo (Most likely Gohan-Boo or Toei-Hax Kid Boo), while we only know DBS Goku >>> SSJ3 Gotenks in base. Of course, it's not a stretch to say Base Goku > SSJ3 Vegetto, but I tried being minimalistic to be fair with GT.

GT (Way shorter than DBS I swear)

Spoiler:

Gohan-Boo: 150 (Just to remind you)

General Rildo: 200

Goku: 200
~ SSJ: 10,000 (Already stronger than SSJG? I didn't expect that... But BoG SSJG is the first power in DBS, so whatever)
~ SSJ2: 20,000
~ SSJ3: 80,000
~ Golden Oozaru: 800,000
~ SSJ4: 10,000,000 (Equal to Toppo and half of the ToP)

Baby Vegeta: 90,000
~ Strongest Form 1: 180,000
~ Strongest Form 2: 720,000
~ Golden Oozaru: 7,200,000

Goku (S17/Evil Dragons Saga): 400 (S17 and Dragons happen back to back, so no power up in between)
~ SSJ: 20,000
~ SSJ4: 20,000,000
~ Ultra FP: 400,000,000 (Equal to U7 Genki-Dama and SSJ Kefla)

Yi Xing Long: 200,000,000 (As high as he can be bc of what I say below. Also makes sense since he tanked KHHx10)
~ DBs absorbed: 2,000,000,000 ("Only" said to be ~10x stronger after absorbing the balls. Should beat SSJ2 Kefla)

Gogeta: 360,000,000 (Explained the "multiplier" in DBS section)
~ SSJ4: 18,000,000,000 (Same as above. He could fight FP Jiren, but would ultimately lose)

Wait, should I have had Base Gogeta = 20x Ultra FP? Nah, that's too outta pocket)

So it's more or less how I expected them to compare, except for SSJG which is surprisingly wimpy in GT. But hey, that's what you gets trying to make Goku God level in the first saga...

[Kaboom]

So if SSJB = SSJ4, then I imagine SSJG would be somewhere in Baby Vegeta's ballpark?

By that metric it could also be about the same as Golden Ape, which I always saw as making Goku roughly equal with Baby, not substantially stronger.

Gold Ape and SSG could almost be seen as like transitionary halfway steps towards SS4 and Blue, respectively. You could potentially make this even simpler by slapping 10-fold boosts around for all the above-SS3 forms in question.

OBS: Don't bother bringing me calculations about how SSJG Goku's punch had a force of 19860731x10^1169 and was going to destroy the multiomniverse so he kills SSJ4 Vegetto with his aura. All that fight shows is that Goku had bad Ki control, lol. People infinitely above SSJG Goku didn't have this problem in the same series. And it's not because no one in GT did this that they can't do this.

The way I've been rationalizing the magic universe-endangering punch-shockwaves for a while now is that god-ki was the primary culprit. I'm thinking something about god-ki jives with the fabric of space in ways that normal mortal ki doesn't, and so large, sloppy clashes of it can cause a chain reaction. So it's not just the amount of power being thrown around, nor just the lack of control over it, but a combination of both those things and the type of power being used. As far as I remember that particular triple-whammy never quite happened again in Super.

Or it could even just be a side-effect of a Destroyer fighting, since the only time I can recall the whole "quit fighting or you might accidentally destroy the universe" factor ever being brought up again was when Beerus and Champa were going at it.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

By that metric it could also be about the same as Golden Ape, which I always saw as making Goku roughly equal with Baby, not substantially stronger.

Gold Ape and SSG could almost be seen as like transitionary halfway steps towards SS4 and Blue, respectively. You could potentially make this even simpler by slapping 10-fold boosts around for all the above-SS3 forms in question.

That's exactly what I did with Golden Ape and SSJ4. That would be good for SSJG since having it barely above SSJ3 is weird, but then SSJB (which is SSJ on top of SSJG) wouldn't be 50x anymore.

The way I've been rationalizing the magic universe-endangering punch-shockwaves for a while now is that god-ki was the primary culprit. I'm thinking something about god-ki jives with the fabric of space in ways that normal mortal ki doesn't, and so large, sloppy clashes of it can cause a chain reaction. So it's not just the amount of power being thrown around, nor just the lack of control over it, but a combination of both those things and the type of power being used. As far as I remember that particular triple-whammy never quite happened again in Super.

Or it could even just be a side-effect of a Destroyer fighting, since the only time I can recall the whole "quit fighting or you might accidentally destroy the universe" factor ever being brought up again was when Beerus and Champa were going at it.

I think it's way simpler than that - Goku just wasn't used to that power and couldn't control his power yet. It's said a few in times in the old series that the fighters restrain themselves to not damage the planet. I think that's exactly the explanation the anime gives, but that scene would be lost somewhere in the 37 episodes Goku and Beerus spent making those shockwaves.