The Android Saga's Infamous "Lets do nothing to stop the upcoming threat" scene

[AliTheZombie13]

We have to agree to disagree then. If Vegeta's threat was that empty and not meant to be taken seriously, Toriyama wouldn't have had Kuririn reinforce in his final speech that Vegeta is indeed a problem, and that they need to distract him so he won't pull anything off against them.

Later in the arc, Kuririn feels hesitant in giving Vegeta a Senzu Bean after he defeats #19, and it's not played for comedy in the slightest, it's played completely straight for drama and suspense. So no, this was meant to be taken dead serious. Kuririn and Bulma are not doing anything because they're scared of what Vegeta might do to them.

When the exact same conflict is presented twice by the author, I infer that I should take it seriously. That the other characters are not reacting to it doesn't mean it's not there and it didn't happen, and it makes them look bad that they're letting Vegeta threaten everybody so casually.

[tonysoprano300]

I promise you I am not trying to write long posts here, there's just a lot to say.

As a result, I made my point clear: Parody isn't exempt from criticism.
This scene largely exists to patch a hole in Toriyama's story: The cast has the means to stop the threat 3 years in advance, meaning the arc would've been pretty much over had they been proactive, so Toriyama decided to joke it out. "Nah, the heroes like to fight lol!"

In the very same scene, Toriyama has to patch yet another hole: He wants Vegeta to have a son, but he also doesn't want to go through the trouble of creating a new female character, so he turns Yamcha into a cheater despite all evidence pointing to the contrary, that Bulma would be the one to cheat on him. And no, this isn't, "Oh, but the fans are completely wrong about Toriyama's genius intentions, notice carefully how this is Trunks' side of the story, and he likely heard those statements from Bulma, who is his mother, so she's likely painting herself as a saint. Certainly, Toriyama carefully thought about the characters and their personalities and-" No, the voice actors actually complained to Toriyama and he joked, "C'mon, man. Yamcha's totally a cheater, go along with me here, ha ha!"

Because of the above, I don't think Toriyama ever really thought with as much insight as you guys want me to believe he did when he wrote "Nah, the heroes like to fight lol" Rather, he saw a big gaping obvious plot-hole in his story, tried to patch it haphazardly, and the result was this. Which brings me again to my initial point: Parody isn't exempt from criticism. I know what Dragon Ball is supposed to be, a wacky kung fu parody, but this didn't exactly stop me from finding that most of this "joke," that exists only to patch an obvious plot-hole in the story, was lazy, unfunny and unengaging.

There, there's the long answer.

See, none of what I wrote was intended to suggest that parody is exempt from criticism. Saying "Dragon Ball is a parody of kung fu tropes" isn't meant to deflect from criticism, it's meant to reorient the criticism. All art is subject to criticism, even parodies. We can critique a parody on how well it parodies the thing it's parodying, for instance. And, frankly, I do not see that happening when people denigrate the characters' recklessness and gambling the fate of the world for the sake of a good fight. I never get the sense that these folks are big fans of Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan films, or Fist of the North Star and Yu Yu Hakusho, or random Shaw Bros. kung fu joints. You did mention Yu Yu Hakusho and Ranma in our last exchange, so that's at least something.

You say this scene is there to patch a hole. I say it's one of many watershed moments in Goku's characterization: a man on a quest to avoid boredom, the Olympic gold medalist depression. It's especially fitting that this tendency first rears its head when he's about to finally get the gold himself, while fighting Piccolo in the grand finals. Obviously the man has now passed, so we can't ask Toriyama if these sorts of moments are what he meant when he said that he deliberately put moments of "poison" slipping through the cracks. But if I were a betting man, I'd say that these sorts of moments are precisely what he was referring to. And I don't think he mentioned that as a way to tactfully cover his ass. He's no stranger to self-deprecation. He's mentioned his own laziness so many times over the years, and even had Kuririn call out his re-use of panels during the Boo arc. So I'm left to infer that these were intended by Toriyama to help us see a very important side of Goku as a person, not merely to move the plot along (they can do both). Goku opting to fight Gero's creations is not the isolated incident it's often presented as, something I know you're aware of because I've seen you take issue with just about every other similar moment.

When I say "Dragon Ball is a parody, and of more things than just Journey to the West", I am not saying "therefore, we shouldn't criticize Toriyama's writing". We can and we should. I even did in the very post we're talking about. And I'll do it again here: I agree with you about the "Yamcha is a cheater" take, at least broadly. I think? That Toriyama seems to throw a wrench in the "Trunks just has bad info from his biased mom" read sucks, because it really is the read that tracks the most with what we see of Bulma and Yamcha's relationship: she is way more likely to be the cheater there. Veering into headcanon territory maybe, but it seems reasonable to me that the truth is somewhere in the middle: that Bulma's unfaithfulness finally got Yamcha to do the same, and that was a step too far for her. Instead, we're left with "the more faithful person in the relationship was a cheater actually". Like, alright Toriyama. Unlike Goku's gold medalist syndrome, there's really no precedent for this. Sloppy as hell writing.

Finally, while I'm framing Dragon Ball as a parody (because it is; the (very long) Wuxia thread shows just how many tropes and direct references Toriyama threw in during the series' long serialization), I very specifically am not referring to individual 'jokes', in the sense of a setup and a punchline (were I to talk about that, it'd be more in a structural sense, where the Very Serious story arcs are the 'setup' and the Boo arc is the 'punchline', and probably all on accident). Goku's poisonous and reckless thrill seeking is an irreverently comical exaggeration of what I guess I'm now just calling Olympic Gold Medalist Syndrome. Silly monkey man is so good he needs the threat of death to really push him. That's both raw as hell (as the kids say) and funny to me. This post from Herms is one of my favorites on the whole forum, because it helps put into perspective just how comical it is that Dragon Ball even tries to play things as straight as it does.

But yeah, whether or not a comedic work makes you laugh is important. If it doesn't make you laugh, then there's something to criticize there, because it's supposed to make you laugh. Now, if you're not laughing because you don't get the reference, or because you can't relate to the mindset it's exaggerating in the first place? I think the criticism is at least worth taking with a grain of salt.

A more meta thing that really bothers me, and informs the way I've come to approach these discussions, is how some criticisms come across, and the place they appear to come from. So often I see people criticize certain pieces or sections of Dragon Ball media with "ugh, and then they just started fighting". Like it's not something the person likes in and of itself. Like the very thing the protagonists are all about is something the person very begrudgingly accepts. I would never call such a person a "fake fan" or any bullshit like that, but it does almost seem that they're a fan of Dragon Ball in spite of itself, almost like a relative outsider to the kung fu genre. And that criticism tends to also go hand in hand with criticism of Toriyama's exaggeration of Olympic Gold Medalist Syndrome. Something which very strongly, to me at least, comes across as a complete lack of any relating to the mindset being exaggerated, resulting in some people just genuinely not "getting it", for lack of a better phrase.

I know it's extremely condescending to tell someone "oh you just don't get it", and it also makes it seem like the "it" in question is some super high brow cerebral thing that you gotta be super intelligent to understand. I seek to suggest neither in my posts on this topic, so I'd love to find a better alternative. Toriyama wrote a junk food comic for little boys. But like, please, I need to know. Those of you who take issue with Goku's characterization in these "poison" moments: do you think it's cool and badass to watch two people throw hands? Is it something that gives you some intrinsic enjoyment? Or is it the kind of thing that genuinely has to externally justify itself to you? I ask because I want to know how apt, or off base, my meta interpretation is.

To address the last question, I am a guy who can really appreciate a well designed and written fight as much as anybody else. The saiyan arc is my favourite shonen battle saga in large part because the showdown vs the saiyans had some of the most compelling tactical fight sequences that I've ever seen.

But if a fight scene has no real dramatic tension or context that really forces you to invest yourself in the battle then yes it is extremely boring, then again I'm one of the weirdos who watches DB for the story.

Same reason I don’t care about watching dumb action sequences in Fast and Furious, it doesn’t really matter how goodbthe CGI is or how awesome the Stunts are. Its just not enough for me to sit there and watch something ultimately has zero meaningful narrative.

I suppose FF is a billion dollar franchise so I'm probably very different that the average audience member in this scenario too

[tonysoprano300]

Ill flip that question around,

Lets say the Battle between Goku and Freeza was written in a way that was completely different. Lets say it started with Goku just hearing that Freeza was a strong guy and so he flies to Namek to fight him. In this scenario we don’t see Vegeta’s rebellion that results with him desperately begging Goku to fulfill the ancient prophecy to take down Freeza, we don’t see Freeza slowly built up through legends and observations, we don’t see the heroes desperately trying to scrape together anything at their disposal to formulate a resistance, we don’t have the context of him destroying the saiyan race put of fear of an uprisal etc.

Lets just say that Goku shows up and fights Freeza with none of this backstory, plot development or build. With no type of the thematic meaning baked into it.

Would you not find that extremely boring? I'm genuinely asking, I recognize that there a huge portion of DB fans would answer no to that question. That Goku and Freeza battling is all they really need to see and the story can either be there or not be there

[Zephyr]

I admittedly am not a fan of Jackie Chan movies or shonen anime. That isn't to say I can't watch them, but that they have to be good on their own merit to work for me. This begs the question: Do people need to understand Wuxia and relate to the real-life psychology of athletes you're describing in order to enjoy Dragon Ball? Can't Dragon Ball work without requiring the viewer to understand these concepts?

I mean, clearly one doesn't have to understand Wuxia and relate to the psychology in order to enjoy Dragon Ball, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. But I do think someone is less likely to enjoy certain elements of Dragon Ball the less of a grasp they have of martial arts media tropes and references, and that athlete psychology. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation.

My main observation here is that at least some of the issues people are having with certain writing decisions are resulting from some concepts and phenomena going over their heads. That doesn't mean the stuff going over their heads is highbrow or sophisticated, necessarily. It's just the simple fact that what prior knowledge we have impacts how something is going to come across to us, what stands out to us, and what we're going to notice and pick up on.

I'm not saying that someone has to have some grasp of these things in order to meaningfully form and exchange opinions on Dragon Ball. I won't say I understood all of this in the way I presently do when I first watched through Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z on TV as a kid (like you said, I watched the butchered English dub and never picked up on the "poison", alongside a ton of other things). But learning new things definitely had an impact on how I interpret the work. Sometimes you learn new things, gain new understandings of concepts, and suddenly something clicks and more stuff makes sense.

All that being said:

An artist long ago has told me, "If you failed to understand what I tried to convey with my art, then that's on me, not you. I'm sorry."

I won't wholly disagree with this idea. But if the lack of understanding would have been remedied by an understanding of what they're referencing and playing off of, then I won't put the blame solely on the artist. If not finding athlete psychology at least a little relatable is causing them to wonder why Goku would do these things, then I'm not willing to blame the artist alone for that confusion.

It's true that it's good for an artist to help contextualize what it is they're playing off of in the work itself, but it's also true a work can only internally provide so much background context. I'm willing to call Toriyama sloppy for not making the poisonous gold medalist athlete psychology more text rather than subtext, because some of the subtext is just not being picked up. But I guess my point is that with more background knowledge about surrounding context and material, it becomes easier to pick up on it even as subtext. Assessing a work of art is going to be an interplay between the artist and the art critic. It's going to "take two to tango". It's important not to carelessly lose and confuse your audience (unless that's the kind of work you're looking to make), but it's also important that higher quality criticism is more informed.

Dragon Ball "hits different" when you recognize it for the pastiche it is. That's partly what made the Wuxia thread so good: it helped contextualize DB more, and changed the way that I at least looked at the work in a way I can't undo. "Oh, Muscle Tower is a Game of Death reference"; "Oh, Tao Pai Pai is a Drunken Master reference", "Oh, the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai is a King Boxer reference", "Oh, Freeza is a Dongfang Bubai reference", etc. Is Toriyama making a story out of the genre's "greatest hits"? That's neat!

Dragon Ball also comes across in a different way when you realize the sort of real life person that Goku is an exaggeration of. There's an interplay between the realistic and fantastical elements. The way that the realistic is bent into the fantastical is something that's worth discerning. That it's a naive bumpkin with a heart of gold and a good sense of humor who is experiencing this Olympic Gold Medalist Syndrome makes it fun to me; he's not a perfect little angel after all. Usually in manga I've read it's a side character or an antagonist who has this psychological disposition of being hungry for someone who could actually challenge them (Zodd from Berserk, Raoh from Fist of the North Star, Younger Toguro from Yu Yu Hakusho, Thorkell from Vinland Saga). That it's a protagonist experiencing this thinking makes it novel to me.

Now, of course, something being novel, or being a fun reference, or being a cute idea, doesn't mean it's executed well. And I think Dragon Ball is executed imperfectly, in part due to Toriyama's rather careless creative process. But what always impresses me about Dragon Ball is that it's as well put together as it is. Toriyama procrastinated way too much, but it turned Dragon Ball into basically a work of improvisation. A decade-long bit of performance-art comic-making that is also a parody collection of the genre's greatest hits. It definitely gets formulaic after a certain point, but that repetitiveness even gets twisted and self-parodied in the final couple of arcs in varying ways. That it manages to work as well as it does alongside all of the other creative things Toriyama did (intentionally and otherwise) is just really cool. There's also the matter of: I don't think it's as poorly executed as you do (as I'll explain below). We may just have to agree to disagree there, because I do not have it in me to write long posts in extended conversations like this anymore.

---

Some scattered comments, because nobody wants to do one of those really long line-by-line quote breakdowns:

Saiyan Heritage & Gold Medalist Syndrome
The whole "Goku is like this because he's a Saiyan!" thing is another place I think Toriyama was pretty sloppy. While his alien heritage is revealed not long after this Gold Medalist Syndrome begins to show itself, it's also not really necessary to explain the Gold Medalist Syndrome: we have the Gold Medal right there. It's clear that Toriyama's intention was that the Saiyan brain was at least partly responsible for this, but those lines that try to pin it exclusively on that come across to me like a line that said "Goku doesn't have arms" would. You can say it, but I'm not buying it, Toriyama. Goku being a Saiyan clearly contributes to his ever-magnifying recklessness, but that's primarily because his being a Saiyan gives him shortcuts to greater strength. That thing which shrinks the available routes to true challenge.

Does the Poison Enrich the Story?
I definitely think it's an element that sufficiently enriches the story. At the very least, it seems to play off of Roshi's worry that the Gold Medal would go to Goku and Kuririn's heads, and he entered two different tournaments in a disguise to keep them humble and make them recognize there's always a bigger fish. It just turns out that Goku loves fighting a bigger fish, and he cherishes an opportunity to fight the biggest fish. Goku's psychology after finally getting the Gold is a twist on Roshi's own worries during the first tournament: instead of getting lazy he gets recklessly proactive. That poison even gets twisted again with Cell: someone who also wants to get the biggest fish and is willing to stall his plans for mass terror, murder, and destruction in order to sate that desire.

I can definitely see his decision to stay dead after the Cell Games indicating that he has done some reflection on the Gold Medalist Syndrome, and possibly a first pass at a healthy outlet: strong people from the past in the afterlife. That he is as eager to fight Vegeta as he is suggests (to me at least) that he didn't find the outlet he thought he would in the afterlife. His indulging in Vegeta's desire to fight prior to stopping Bobbidi definitely indicates that Goku didn't grow into a better person over the last seven years; I can understand why this would frustrate someone. By the epilogue, though, Goku does finally get a healthy outlet in Oob: the final and most powerful antagonist gets reincarnated and becomes his pupil. Goku has gone from a student to a master, and he now has the best possible insurance against Gold Medalist Syndrome.

That's what Dragon Ball's story is about, to me; the "poison" is an inextricable part of it. I can tell you that back in the 00's when I was a dub fan who didn't think of Goku in this way, I thought he was a very boring character and was not anywhere on my list of favorites. With this "poison", though, Goku is now one of my favorite characters in the story, especially as an adult. No, he doesn't grow into a better person, and he ends up getting an outlet for his flaws handed to him without having to seriously wrestle with the implications of those flaws. Frankly, I'm plenty satisfied without that, even if I would be even more satisfied with that, if that makes sense.

Inconsistent Goku?
Goku loves to fight the biggest fish he can find, but he's also not a complete idiot; he knows when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em. I don't think the moments of pragmatism we see from him are at odds with him wanting a fair fight. Once it's clear that he's lost the fair fight, survival and victory by any means is going to become the top priority. That's why he'll resort to 2-on-1s, Genki Damas, self-sacrifice, and fusion when it's clear that he won't get the Gold and is going to die if he doesn't kill. Goku scolds Vegeta for crushing the Potara when Boo is still fused, and crushes his second one after Boo has been weakened. Different behaviors in different situations. But I will say that this is another area that could have been made more clear by Toriyama; it's very common to see people calling Goku inconsistent, and where there's smoke there's fire. I just think the fire that is there gets exaggerated.

Dragon Ball Fights (also addressing tonysoprano300's post and question)
So, characters fighting isn't simply an excuse to have two action figures hit each other. It's also not strictly an opportunity to watch a character solve a puzzle. Those are both great, but another aspect of any interpersonal conflict in a story, in this case fights in Dragon Ball, is seeing two characters play off of each other. We see their motivations and personalities clash. One reason I don't find the back half of Namek boring isn't because my lizard brain is being doped up by big explosions, it's because I get to see Freeza's sadism interact with Gohan's courage, Kuririn's cowardice, Vegeta's arrogance, and ultimately Goku's righteous indignation and Gold Medalist Syndrome.

It's not just that Goku is a goofy dude, it's also that he has a tendency to rub off on people. We see him being a foil for different sorts of people, and we see them changed in different ways through their interactions with Goku. We get to see a Piccolo who is so embittered that he overcomes his fear of martial arts and martial artists in order to take Goku down at his own game on his own home turf. Freeza is a petulant child, but one who is eager enough to settle things with Goku that he didn't simply shoot Namek a second time. You might also remember earlier this year when I realized just how much the two phases of Goku's fight with Freeza mirror each other. Goku's and Vegeta's fights with Boo mean a lot to me because they let him out, and it's only right that they would be the ones to put him away. Goku also awakens Boo's own thirst for a good fight, which basically threads through the entire rest of the arc, culminating with the epilogue where Goku takes on Boo's reincarnation as a pupil.

---

I've come to appreciate Dragon Ball as a created thing the more I've learned about it and the longer I've spent going back through it, including the Cell arc in general and this "let's fight Gero's monsters" moment in particular.

I feel like there's a lot more I could and should add (and maybe condense and reorganize), but I'm pretty tapped here and this post is already way too long and I've already spent several hours writing and editing it. If anyone's made it to the end, congrats, and also I am once again sorry it is not of a more readable length. Even if you still disagree, I hope you understand where I'm coming from and why I think this scene is pretty good, actually, and why I think Goku's "poison" genuinely enriches the (still sloppy) story.

I can't say I won't reply further, but if I do it's gonna take a while and will (hopefully) manifest in shorter posts.

[AliTheZombie13]

[...]

OK, I did read all of that, and quite honestly, I see your point. Without having any knowledge of Wuxia, I can't really comment on how much Dragon Ball uses it as inspiration and how much it would enrich the reading/viewing experience.

My opinion as that of an ignorant viewer is that Goku's behavior is inconsistent because Toriyama is a self-described lazy writer and troll, and Dragon Ball itself is inconsistent. At moments, you will find pieces of dialogue that clash with what's been presented before, sometimes in the very same chapter.

"#19 and #20 are the villains that ravaged my timeline- Wait, no, #17 and #18 are!"
"How about we use the Dragon Balls to locate Gero and- Never mind, I always knew where he was!"
"You think I will let you power up to 100%? NEVER- Okay, go ahead, I want to humiliate you!"
"The Dragon Balls can only resurrect people who have been dead for less than year- It's okay, I can wait another year here."

Because of that, it's pretty hard to differentiate what's intentional and what is an inconsistency.
Despite everything, even if you intend something, doesn't always mean that the result will be good or that the audience will take it well.

I know for a fact that Jade Wesker's characterization in the Netflix Resident Evil series was always intended to be what it was. Like Goku, she makes many, many, many bone-headed mistakes, despite being a well-meaning person. But the series makes it clear that her abrasiveness is an intended character flaw. But even then, that doesn't make her pleasant to watch.

I don't think having knowledge of Wuxia would help me either way. I would find a newfound appreciation for the finer details, yes. But chances are I would still not like Goku. Hell, I don't like Vegeta, despite knowing that every single thing his character does is in-character. I would still think Goku is extremely stupid and unpleasant to watch, even if I knew that was always the writer's intention. I know for a fact it is in Super, and that is by far my least favorite incarnation of his.

Ultimately, I'm happy you find so much enjoyment on something I didn't.

[WittyUsername]

I don’t see why anyone would argue that the scene where the characters refuse to stop Dr. Gero exists for any reason other than to prevent the conflict from ending immediately, hence why it’s never brought up for the remainder of the arc.

Sure, you could argue that it’s perfectly in-character for people like Goku and Tenshinhan to want to fight the artificial humans, rather than taking the pragmatic approach, but there’s no reason for the story to even bring up the possibility of using the Dragon Balls to stop Gero, unless Toriyama felt he needed to address it so readers wouldn’t ask questions.

Besides, the fact that the characters go out of their way to try and stop Dr. Gero from reactivating 17 and 18, even though they had just spent three years training to fight those guys, should be a pretty obvious testament to the fact that Toriyama wasn’t thinking too deeply about it.

[SupremeKai25]

One of the reasons why I despise the Android saga is that Toriyama exaggerated way too much with the idea that the Dragon Team are stupid.

First they let the Androids emerge instead of destroying the lab.

Then 17 and 18 (who are basically good guys at this point) literally aren't even trying to run away from Cell despite 16 begging them to flee.

Then Krillin destroys the android destruction device.

Then Vegeta lets Cell absorb 18.

Then Krillin, Bulma, and Dr. Brief never bother mentioning to 16 that they removed his bomb.

Then Goku forgets that Gohan doesn't like fighting which obviously backfires, thankfully Cell had his own dose of idiot ball.

Then Gohan toys with Cell instead of just killing him.

I'll take pity for Vegeta and not count his stupid attempt to kill Cell with generic ki blast spam that got Gohan crippled.

It's too much. The Buu saga also has moments where the protagonists mess up, namely Majin Vegeta, Gohan toying with Super Buu, and the Saiyans destroying the Potara earrings, but they made more sense and were fewer in number. DBS in its entirety barely has any such moments. The only ones that come to mind are Goku forgetting the Mafuba seal and Goku wanting to spare Moro.

I can't take the Android saga seriously, everyone was turned into an idiot.

How do people like this saga? Like do people just enjoy watching their protagonists do stupid and senseless things over, and over, and over again? Is it just Nostalgia?

[Koitsukai]

Besides, the fact that the characters go out of their way to try and stop Dr. Gero from reactivating 17 and 18, even though they had just spent three years training to fight those guys, should be a pretty obvious testament to the fact that Toriyama wasn’t thinking too deeply about it.

It's pretty simple why that happened, they wanted to give it a shot with the full squad, but then one of them gets fisted, the strongest suffers a heart attack, and his son needs to take him home, losing 2 out of the 4 strongest guys available, they were decimated. Suddenly, things started to look way too similar to the future timeline.

Their politics changed due to their own circumstances. It's like saying yeah, we are 400 guys, we can take the Liverpool's hooligan firm, no need to call the cops on them, we are not cowards... until 200 of your 400 men can't make it for reasons, so you run to the nearest police station like there's no tomorrow. No course-correction would be the dumbest thing to do.
Only Vegeta still wants to fight, Trunks is there but hardly experienced to replace Goku and also having none of it.

[WittyUsername]

Besides, the fact that the characters go out of their way to try and stop Dr. Gero from reactivating 17 and 18, even though they had just spent three years training to fight those guys, should be a pretty obvious testament to the fact that Toriyama wasn’t thinking too deeply about it.

It's pretty simple why that happened, they wanted to give it a shot with the full squad, but then one of them gets fisted, the strongest suffers a heart attack, and his son needs to take him home, losing 2 out of the 4 strongest guys available, they were decimated. Suddenly, things started to look way too similar to the future timeline.

Their politics changed due to their own circumstances. It's like saying yeah, we are 400 guys, we can take the Liverpool's hooligan firm, no need to call the cops on them, we are not cowards... until 200 of your 400 men can't make it for reasons, so you run to the nearest police station like there's no tomorrow. No course-correction would be the dumbest thing to do.
Only Vegeta still wants to fight, Trunks is there but hardly experienced to replace Goku and also having none of it.

If their goal was to rely on strength in numbers, then I don’t see how that really fits into their martial artist mindset. Are they really proving themselves as fighters if they do that?

Plus, the characters also go out of their way to try and stop Cell from reaching his Perfect Form, even after they learn about the Room of Spirit and Time. Vegeta is basically the only character in the arc who remains consistent in that regard.

[Koitsukai]

If their goal was to rely on strength in numbers, then I don’t see how that really fits into their martial artist mindset. Are they really proving themselves as fighters if they do that?

Plus, the characters also go out of their way to try and stop Cell from reaching his Perfect Form, even after they learn about the Room of Spirit and Time. Vegeta is basically the only character in the arc who remains consistent in that regard.

Having the legendary super alien and his mutant son probably boosts their confidence, and losing them probably makes it drop. Being martial artists doesn't mean they have to be suicidal. A fleeing soldier serves another battle.
Piccolo equals Kami, so it makes sense for him and the rest, for that matter, to be all cocky when there's back up, but be more cautious when there is none.
Also, this "contradiction" happens 3 years later, not 3 hours later. Why couldn't they think they were going to be able to surpass themselves only to see, 3 years later, that they were wrong? what if they learned during that time that they can't get much stronger, or that the looming threat might be too much for what they've accomplished by then?

So, they bit more than they could chew, they learned from their mistakes and are now being proactive in the pursuit of Cell. But people still complain about it. They can't win.

[WittyUsername]

If their goal was to rely on strength in numbers, then I don’t see how that really fits into their martial artist mindset. Are they really proving themselves as fighters if they do that?

Plus, the characters also go out of their way to try and stop Cell from reaching his Perfect Form, even after they learn about the Room of Spirit and Time. Vegeta is basically the only character in the arc who remains consistent in that regard.

Having the legendary super alien and his mutant son probably boosts their confidence, and losing them probably makes it drop. Being martial artists doesn't mean they have to be suicidal. A fleeing soldier serves another battle.
Piccolo equals Kami, so it makes sense for him and the rest, for that matter, to be all cocky when there's back up, but be more cautious when there is none.
Also, this "contradiction" happens 3 years later, not 3 hours later. Why couldn't they think they were going to be able to surpass themselves only to see, 3 years later, that they were wrong? what if they learned during that time that they can't get much stronger, or that the looming threat might be too much for what they've accomplished by then?

So, they bit more than they could chew, they learned from their mistakes and are now being proactive in the pursuit of Cell. But people still complain about it. They can't win.

The problem is that the narrative doesn’t really acknowledge that the characters learned from their mistakes. We don’t get a scene where they lament how stupid they were for not following Bulma’s advice, or a scene where Trunks chews them out for it.

[AliTheZombie13]

I feel like people like to give too much credit to clear contradictions in character behavior. Whenever there is a very obvious one, Toriyama tends to add a justification right there in the story that opens up more questions than it closes.

Remember the, "I didn't want to use Super Saiyajin 3 because it would shorten my time and-" You can bet that, if that scene didn't exist, fans would be making up a thousand head-canons about how Goku was too arrogant and self-absorbed and didn't think Vegeta was worth his time and how it was totally in-character etc. if Toriyama didn't put that there, when the real answer is much simpler: Super Saiyajin 3 wasn't relevant to the plot at the time, so Goku acted different.

I think a lot of that applies here, the characters decide they want to test themselves, then they don't because the roadblock of "We can stop this arc dead in its tracks 3 years early!" isn't relevant to the plot anymore. A similar situation happened in King Piccolo. For all Tenshinhan knew, Goku and Kuririn were dead, but he still wanted to defeat Piccolo himself. If Tenshinhan really is acting in-character and he wants to test himself to the fullest, then why is the loss of Goku suddenly impairing his desire to prove himself when the loss of Goku was caused by a condition completely unrelated to his fighting prowess?

[Cure Dragon 255]

I feel like people like to give too much credit to clear contradictions in character behavior. Whenever there is a very obvious one, Toriyama tends to add a justification right there in the story that opens up more questions than it closes.

Remember the, "I didn't want to use Super Saiyajin 3 because it would shorten my time and-" You can bet that, if that scene didn't exist, fans would be making up a thousand head-canons about how Goku was too arrogant and self-absorbed and didn't think Vegeta was worth his time and how it was totally in-character etc. if Toriyama didn't put that there, when the real answer is much simpler: Super Saiyajin 3 wasn't relevant to the plot at the time, so Goku acted different.

I think a lot of that applies here, the characters decide they want to test themselves, then they don't because the roadblock of "We can stop this arc dead in its tracks 3 years early!" isn't relevant anymore.

I agree with you and I am on your side, but the REAL answer is Toriyama REALLY hadnt thought of SSJ3 at the moment. It REALLY wasnt a thing when Vegeta was Majin. I do agree that there are indeed some lines that try to make Toriyama's "Plot" make sense but they rarely succeed if ever.

[Koitsukai]

If their goal was to rely on strength in numbers, then I don’t see how that really fits into their martial artist mindset. Are they really proving themselves as fighters if they do that?

Plus, the characters also go out of their way to try and stop Cell from reaching his Perfect Form, even after they learn about the Room of Spirit and Time. Vegeta is basically the only character in the arc who remains consistent in that regard.

Having the legendary super alien and his mutant son probably boosts their confidence, and losing them probably makes it drop. Being martial artists doesn't mean they have to be suicidal. A fleeing soldier serves another battle.
Piccolo equals Kami, so it makes sense for him and the rest, for that matter, to be all cocky when there's back up, but be more cautious when there is none.
Also, this "contradiction" happens 3 years later, not 3 hours later. Why couldn't they think they were going to be able to surpass themselves only to see, 3 years later, that they were wrong? what if they learned during that time that they can't get much stronger, or that the looming threat might be too much for what they've accomplished by then?

So, they bit more than they could chew, they learned from their mistakes and are now being proactive in the pursuit of Cell. But people still complain about it. They can't win.

The problem is that the narrative doesn’t really acknowledge that the characters learned from their mistakes. We don’t get a scene where they lament how stupid they were for not following Bulma’s advice, or a scene where Trunks chews them out for it.

I understand it, being a children's comic, probably would benefit from being as explicit as possible, I agree with that, but to grasp this "growth" do we really need it to be spoonfed to us?

They basically lay back and say we got this, underrate the threat, overrate themselves. Yada, yada yada, things go south and suddenly they are doing exactly what they should've done in the first place. I actually prefer things to be subtle and not "welp... we a dork, we should've bla bla bla".
Sure, maybe they deserved some lecture about it, but the story itself is doing it.

[MasenkoHA]

"Let's do nothing" is pretty disingenuous. They were upping their training regime to prepare for the Artificial Humans. It's not like they spent 3 years kicking back at Kame House and chugging beer while having Bruce Lee marathons.

Obviously they can't prevent it or there would be no story and I think most fans "solutions" to still have it happen come off pretty silly.

These are also characters who consistently are shown to have their own code as martial artist like Tenshinhan giving Goku a free hit because Crane Hermit had Chaozu fix the game or Goku giving Piccolo a free hit because of Kami intervening or refusing help from the others because his match was more important than the fate of the world.

This goes back to the whole "they're martial artist not the Justice League of Japan.

[AliTheZombie13]

I don't think we have yet addressed the topic of Trunks here.

Imagine, a guy from the future came, told you you're going to die in X years, gave you medicine to prevent you from dying, and asked you to make a difference to make his world a better place (I know how Time Travel works in Dragon Ball, but Trunks apparently doesn't yet) and instead of repaying him in gratitude, you decide to put the world at stake. I'm surprised that Trunks doesn't yell at Goku when he comes back, "DID YOU DO NOTHING TO CHANGE MY FUTURE OR SOMETHING???"

Goku and co. don't have to be the Justice League, no one is arguing they have to be, but when a guy saves your life and asks one thing out of you, and you don't do that, this makes you look like a giant ungrateful douche.

[JulieYBM]

I don't think we have yet addressed the topic of Trunks here.

Imagine, a guy from the future came, told you you're going to die in X years, gave you medicine to prevent you from dying, and asked you to make a difference to make his world a better place (I know how Time Travel works in Dragon Ball, but Trunks apparently doesn't yet) and instead of repaying him in gratitude, you decide to put the world at stake. I'm surprised that Trunks doesn't yell at Goku when he comes back, "DID YOU DO NOTHING TO CHANGE MY FUTURE OR SOMETHING???"

Goku and co. don't have to be the Justice League, no one is arguing they have to be, but when a guy saves your life and asks one thing out of you, and you don't do that, this makes you look like a giant ungrateful douche.

Cannot stop thinking about how sick it would be if the Justice League was there when all this went down, actually. That would be so fun to write.

...damn, I have too many original stories that I'm trying to write as it is!

[miguelnuva1]

I don't think we have yet addressed the topic of Trunks here.

Imagine, a guy from the future came, told you you're going to die in X years, gave you medicine to prevent you from dying, and asked you to make a difference to make his world a better place (I know how Time Travel works in Dragon Ball, but Trunks apparently doesn't yet) and instead of repaying him in gratitude, you decide to put the world at stake. I'm surprised that Trunks doesn't yell at Goku when he comes back, "DID YOU DO NOTHING TO CHANGE MY FUTURE OR SOMETHING???"

Goku and co. don't have to be the Justice League, no one is arguing they have to be, but when a guy saves your life and asks one thing out of you, and you don't do that, this makes you look like a giant ungrateful douche.

Goku was going to do the one thing Trunks asked and that was train and fight. Trunks came back to warn the Z fighters and the dub has him say if I knew where the Lab was you would be my second visit.

This is another reason brought up in the dub but like Goku said Gero hadn't done anything yet and that point. Gero made the Androids to kill Goku, Goku decided with this information he was going to train and fight them. This is in line with his character is why I say the DB characters are not the heroes from Digimon or Sailor Moon who would have gone with Bulma's plan.

This is no different then why do Goku and Vegeta not start fights as Gogeta.

Had Goku got rid of Gero early, Cell would have absorbed the Androids and killed everyone.

[MasenkoHA]

I don't think we have yet addressed the topic of Trunks here.

Imagine, a guy from the future came, told you you're going to die in X years, gave you medicine to prevent you from dying, and asked you to make a difference to make his world a better place (I know how Time Travel works in Dragon Ball, but Trunks apparently doesn't yet) and instead of repaying him in gratitude, you decide to put the world at stake. I'm surprised that Trunks doesn't yell at Goku when he comes back, "DID YOU DO NOTHING TO CHANGE MY FUTURE OR SOMETHING???"

Goku and co. don't have to be the Justice League, no one is arguing they have to be, but when a guy saves your life and asks one thing out of you, and you don't do that, this makes you look like a giant ungrateful douche.

Huh.

Trunks went to the past to save Goku's life and warn him about the Androids so Goku could defeat them.

Trunks didn't ask Goku to stop the Androids from being created, he asked him to defeat them. That's why he told him what time and place they would show up.

Goku did nothing that went against Trunks wishes.

[AliTheZombie13]

This is another reason brought up in the dub but like Goku said Gero hadn't done anything yet and that point. Gero made the Androids to kill Goku, Goku decided with this information he was going to train and fight them. This is in line with his character is why I say the DB characters are not the heroes from Digimon or Sailor Moon who would have gone with Bulma's plan.

I can say with almost certainty the heroes of Digimon or Sailor Moon wouldn't have gone with Bulma's plan, at least not in the first phase of their characterization. They would straight-up tell you they're not interested in saving the world and just want to go home and live a normal life, before fate smacks them in the face and shows them they have to do it or else their loved ones will die.

You see, this is the difference between Dragon Ball and other anime that play with the "Not a Hero" trope. The ones from other anime are built up and pay off naturally, while Dragon Ball wants to have its cake and eat it too. I know the characters of Dragon Ball are not heroes, I know they're not out to save the world, but them turning their face to the screen and saying:

"Sorry, but we'd rather train and deal with the problem through fighting, because our Martial Artist egos wouldn't have it any other way. And if we die, oops, there goes the Earth. Tee hee, our bad. At least we died with honor despite the fact all of our loved ones are now either dead or suffering "

I don't exactly care if this is in-character or not, or if they're so stupid/arrogant to not realize the implications of their actions. My sympathy for these characters died right there, and I proceeded to spend the rest of the arc not caring about what happened to them. Like they said themselves, "If they die, so be it."