The Android Saga's Infamous "Lets do nothing to stop the upcoming threat" scene

[miguelnuva1]

This is another reason brought up in the dub but like Goku said Gero hadn't done anything yet and that point. Gero made the Androids to kill Goku, Goku decided with this information he was going to train and fight them. This is in line with his character is why I say the DB characters are not the heroes from Digimon or Sailor Moon who would have gone with Bulma's plan.

I can say with almost certainty the heroes of Digimon or Sailor Moon wouldn't have gone with Bulma's plan, at least not in the first phase of their characterization. They would straight-up tell you they're not interested in saving the world and just want to go home and live a normal life, before fate smacks them in the face and shows them they have to do it or else their loved ones will die.

You see, this is the difference between Dragon Ball and other anime that play with the "Not a Hero" trope. The ones from other anime are built up and pay off naturally, while Dragon Ball wants to have its cake and eat it too. I know the characters of Dragon Ball are not heroes, I know they're not out to save the world, but them turning their face to the screen and saying:

"Sorry, but we'd rather train and deal with the problem through fighting, because our Martial Artist egos wouldn't have it any other way. And if we die, oops, there goes the Earth. Tee hee, our bad. At least we died with honor despite the fact all of our loved ones are now either dead or suffering "

I don't exactly care if this is in-character or not, or if they're so stupid/arrogant to not realize the implications of their actions. My sympathy for these characters died right there, and I proceeded to spend the rest of the arc not caring about what happened to them. Like they said themselves, "If they die, so be it."

I was talking adventure 02 era Digimon and later arc sailor moon. They wouldn't have killed Gero but if the option was train for 3 years and take a chance on dying or going to find and stop Gero now they would have chosen the later option.

[AliTheZombie13]

I was talking adventure 02 era Digimon and later arc sailor moon. They wouldn't have killed Gero but if the option was train for 3 years and take a chance on dying or going to find and stop Gero now they would have chosen the later option.

I maintain my opinion. Even taking the last season of Sailor Moon into account, I would still struggle to call these girls superheroes. Much like the characters of Dragon Ball, they're not interested in actively looking for people committing crimes all over the world, they're fighting against things that are hurting their loved ones or people suffering right in front of their eyes.

They're not, say, venturing into outer space to look for other planets that might need their help as we later learn in Sailor Moon was a thing that was happening. In fact, when survivors from a war in outer space come requesting their help, they reject them and say they can't trust them. In another special episode of the final season, Neptune flat-out risks destroying the world because she wouldn't live in a world without Uranus.

The characters of Sailor Moon are more alike those of Dragon Ball than you think. The difference here is, while I can sympathize with Neptune's decision to forsake the world to save her lover, I can't sympathize with, "We're putting the entire world at risk for our egos!"

Again, I don't care about "Oh, but they're not heroes! This is not an inconsistency! It's perfectly in-character!" The problem is that I can't sympathize with these characters. And yeah, I know it's not a problem for everybody, but I personally struggle to follow stories that feature unsympathetic casts.

[Cure Dragon 255]

This is another reason brought up in the dub but like Goku said Gero hadn't done anything yet and that point. Gero made the Androids to kill Goku, Goku decided with this information he was going to train and fight them. This is in line with his character is why I say the DB characters are not the heroes from Digimon or Sailor Moon who would have gone with Bulma's plan.

I can say with almost certainty the heroes of Digimon or Sailor Moon wouldn't have gone with Bulma's plan, at least not in the first phase of their characterization. They would straight-up tell you they're not interested in saving the world and just want to go home and live a normal life, before fate smacks them in the face and shows them they have to do it or else their loved ones will die.

You see, this is the difference between Dragon Ball and other anime that play with the "Not a Hero" trope. The ones from other anime are built up and pay off naturally, while Dragon Ball wants to have its cake and eat it too. I know the characters of Dragon Ball are not heroes, I know they're not out to save the world, but them turning their face to the screen and saying:

"Sorry, but we'd rather train and deal with the problem through fighting, because our Martial Artist egos wouldn't have it any other way. And if we die, oops, there goes the Earth. Tee hee, our bad. At least we died with honor despite the fact all of our loved ones are now either dead or suffering "

I don't exactly care if this is in-character or not, or if they're so stupid/arrogant to not realize the implications of their actions. My sympathy for these characters died right there, and I proceeded to spend the rest of the arc not caring about what happened to them. Like they said themselves, "If they die, so be it."

You have not seen Digimon Adventure Tri, in that continuity the Chosen Children outdo the Dragon Team in sheer selfishness and assholery. They dont even have the "We wanna test ourselves". They. Just. DONT. CARE.

[Majin Buu]

Imagine, a guy from the future came, told you you're going to die in X years, gave you medicine to prevent you from dying, and asked you to make a difference to make his world a better place (I know how Time Travel works in Dragon Ball, but Trunks apparently doesn't yet) and instead of repaying him in gratitude, you decide to put the world at stake. I'm surprised that Trunks doesn't yell at Goku when he comes back, "DID YOU DO NOTHING TO CHANGE MY FUTURE OR SOMETHING???"

Trunks later realizes going back in time won't change the future of his world, only save the future of the present world; so it would be pointless to have him get mad at Goku for not trying to change his future only for him to later realize changing that future was never possible.

Goku and co. don't have to be the Justice League, no one is arguing they have to be

For me personally, the more people who complain about this story beat say this line, the more it sounds like lip service to me. There's always a "but" after that and the following statement usually amounts to "but they should be doing more than nothing" (which as others have pointed out, it's not even accurate that they're doing nothing).

It's like people who say this know they have to acknowledge that they're not superheroes because they're literally not superheroes, but the arguments that follow always come off like said people sure as hell want them to be superheroes, or at the very least to be more like conventional heroes.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Imagine, a guy from the future came, told you you're going to die in X years, gave you medicine to prevent you from dying, and asked you to make a difference to make his world a better place (I know how Time Travel works in Dragon Ball, but Trunks apparently doesn't yet) and instead of repaying him in gratitude, you decide to put the world at stake. I'm surprised that Trunks doesn't yell at Goku when he comes back, "DID YOU DO NOTHING TO CHANGE MY FUTURE OR SOMETHING???"

Trunks later realizes going back in time won't change the future of his world, only save the future of the present world; so it would be pointless to have him get mad at Goku for not trying to change his future only for him to later realize changing that future was never possible.

Goku and co. don't have to be the Justice League, no one is arguing they have to be

For me personally, the more people who complain about this story beat say this line, the more it sounds like lip service to me. There's always a "but" after that and the following statement usually amounts to "but they should be doing more than nothing" (which as others have pointed out, it's not even accurate that they're doing nothing).

It's like people who say this know they have to acknowledge that they're not superheroes because they're literally not superheroes, but the arguments that follow always come off like said people sure as hell want them to be superheroes, or at the very least to be more like conventional heroes.

I was about to object, NO ONE wants or needs them to be the Justice League, but you covered your basis, and included "conventional heroes" so no one can object to it "without looking hypocritical."

Well, pardon my french, but fuck that, I dont care anymore. It is not wrong to expect the people who are supposed to root for to be at least not be infuriatingly apathetic (And yes, they are doing "Something" in the most vague and innefective ways) and for their concern and care for the situation NOT BE ABLE To be turned on and off like faucets of water, when Toriyama wants them to be present. In fact I can turn it right around. Saying "Oh but Toriyama's intent..."


NO

We are not robots that we HAVE TO accept Toriyama's intent, SURE, you CAN say people who dont like this missed the point, but what if people KNOW the point, but DONT CARE and want to disagree?

[Majin Buu]

I was about to object, NO ONE wants or needs them to be the Justice League, but you covered your basis, and included "conventional heroes" so no one can object to it "without looking hypocritical."

Well, pardon my french, but fuck that, I dont care anymore. It is not wrong to expect the people who are supposed to root for to be at least not be infuriatingly apathetic (And yes, they are doing "Something" in the most vague and innefective ways) and for their concern and care for the situation NOT BE ABLE To be turned on and off like faucets of water, when Toriyama wants them to be present. In fact I can turn it right around. Saying "Oh but Toriyama's intent..."

I didn't say anything about Toriyama's intent.

We are not robots that we HAVE TO accept Toriyama's intent, SURE, you CAN say people who dont like this missed the point, but what if people KNOW the point, but DONT CARE and want to disagree?

I didn't say people have to accept Toriyama's intent either.

[WittyUsername]

Honestly, I find the whole “they’re not superheroes” talking point to be really tiresome. Yes, we know that the Dragon Team are not the Justice League. We know that they don’t actively go around saving lives and trying to make the world a better place in their off-time. That’s completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not they should’ve stopped Dr. Gero from creating the artificial humans. You don’t have to be a superhero to not want the world to be destroyed by murderous robots.

As for the idea that the characters choosing to become more pragmatic in the later portions of the arc are a result of them learning from their initial mistake of not listening to Bulma, I genuinely believe that’s giving Toriyama too much credit. As I said, I don’t believe he was thinking too deeply about that. He needed an explanation for why the character wouldn’t use the Dragon Balls to stop Dr. Gero, so he gave one on the spot and then moved on.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I was about to object, NO ONE wants or needs them to be the Justice League, but you covered your basis, and included "conventional heroes" so no one can object to it "without looking hypocritical."

Well, pardon my french, but fuck that, I dont care anymore. It is not wrong to expect the people who are supposed to root for to be at least not be infuriatingly apathetic (And yes, they are doing "Something" in the most vague and innefective ways) and for their concern and care for the situation NOT BE ABLE To be turned on and off like faucets of water, when Toriyama wants them to be present. In fact I can turn it right around. Saying "Oh but Toriyama's intent..."

I didn't say anything about Toriyama's intent.

We are not robots that we HAVE TO accept Toriyama's intent, SURE, you CAN say people who dont like this missed the point, but what if people KNOW the point, but DONT CARE and want to disagree?

I didn't say people have to accept Toriyama's intent either.

You didnt, but then I HAVE to say if you are not going by Toriyama's intent, what is wrong for wanting the Dragon Team crew to not behave like selfish morons then? What is supposed to justify it? Oh the Dragon Team are assholes but that okay... because...

Because...


...Um.

Yeah.

"We are not supposed to hate the Dragon Team, because they are not superheroes."

I know I am dumb and autistic but this is even worse than just being too keen on defending or agreeing Toriyama, its a circular logic that justifies it in a cycle of non sense.

[AliTheZombie13]

For me personally, the more people who complain about this story beat say this line, the more it sounds like lip service to me. There's always a "but" after that and the following statement usually amounts to "but they should be doing more than nothing" (which as others have pointed out, it's not even accurate that they're doing nothing).

It's like people who say this know they have to acknowledge that they're not superheroes because they're literally not superheroes, but the arguments that follow always come off like said people sure as hell want them to be superheroes, or at the very least to be more like conventional heroes.

Personally, I feel it's the other way around, the more people say "But they're not superheroes" to excuse how unlikable the characters act, the more it sounds like lip service to me.

Okay, Goku and co. aren't superheroes, I'm glad we have accepted that. Can we move on and discuss how "NOT A HERO" doesn't make their actions any more engaging? I swear, it's like Dragon Ball has become Resident Evil in how they write their characters, but instead of CAPCOM doing crazy gaslighting to convince me I should find Chris' character interesting, it's the fans instead.

Replace Chris Redfield with Goku and you have this exact same situation. Am I supposed to excuse bad characterization because Toriyama wants to have this cake and eat it too moment of "Oh, they're not superheroes, but they will fight for peace on Earth and go out of their way to resurrect people, and sacrifice themselves to save the world, and get angry when people die, and get special rewards in the afterlife for saving the world, and- Uh, what was I saying? Oh yeah, THEY'RE NOT HEROES!!!"

Like... okay??? I guess??? Even then, so what?

Am I supposed to think Goku and co. making incredibly selfish and arrogant decisions that come off as plain stupidity makes them interesting or engaging characters or something?

[Majin Buu]

You didnt

Then why did you act like I did?

but then I HAVE to say if you are not going by Toriyama's intent, what is wrong for wanting the Dragon Team crew to not behave like selfish morons then? What is supposed to justify it? Oh the Dragon Team are assholes but that okay... because...

The complaint boils down to "I don't like that these characters don't prioritize saving the world since they didn't stop Dr. Gero when they had the chance". Stopping Dr. Gero before he creates the androids would be acting in service of saving the world and doing good- which is why the word "superhero" tends to get brought out in this discussion, because those are the key characteristics of a superhero. Looking past the word "superhero", a more conventional hero that's nonetheless not a superhero would likely prioritize the same things.

My observation was that people who complain about this tend to acknowledge that they're not superheroes (They're not conventional heroes either) but then basically complain about them not acting like superheroes or otherwise like how a hero should be acting in their eyes, making that acknowledgement feel like lip service.

[Cure Dragon 255]

For me personally, the more people who complain about this story beat say this line, the more it sounds like lip service to me. There's always a "but" after that and the following statement usually amounts to "but they should be doing more than nothing" (which as others have pointed out, it's not even accurate that they're doing nothing).

It's like people who say this know they have to acknowledge that they're not superheroes because they're literally not superheroes, but the arguments that follow always come off like said people sure as hell want them to be superheroes, or at the very least to be more like conventional heroes.

Personally, I feel it's the other way around, the more people say "But they're not superheroes" to excuse how unlikable the characters act, the more it sounds like lip service to me.

Okay, Goku and co. aren't superheroes, I'm glad we have accepted that. Can we move on and discuss how "NOT A HERO" doesn't make their actions any more engaging? I swear, it's like Dragon Ball has become Resident Evil in how they write their characters, but instead of CAPCOM doing crazy gaslighting to convince me I should find Chris' character interesting, it's the fans instead.

Replace Chris Redfield with Goku and you have this exact same situation. Am I supposed to excuse bad characterization because Toriyama wants to have this cake and eat it too moment of "Oh, they're not superheroes, but they will fight for peace on Earth and go out of their way to resurrect people, and sacrifice themselves to save the world, and get angry when people die, and get special rewards in the afterlife for saving the world, and- Uh, what was I saying? Oh yeah, THEY'RE NOT HEROES!!!"

Like... okay??? I guess??? Even then, so what?



Am I supposed to think Goku and co. making incredibly selfish and arrogant decisions that come off as plain stupidity makes them interesting or engaging characters or something?

I love this post but it was much stronger without this section past the word "moment".

Replace Chris Redfield with Goku and you have this exact same situation. Am I supposed to excuse bad characterization because Toriyama wants to have this cake and eat it too moment of "Oh, they're not superheroes, but they will fight for peace on Earth and go out of their way to resurrect people, and sacrifice themselves to save the world, and get angry when people die, and get special rewards in the afterlife for saving the world, and- Uh, what was I saying? Oh yeah, THEY'RE NOT HEROES!!!"

Because then it seems it shoots itself in the foot, because your critics will point that out and say you missed the point, the wording makes it seem like YOU DO think they are heroes and just dissapointed they arent. If you reworded it to...

"Yeah they are not superheroes, they are selfish, idiotic and EXTREMELY short sighted... and no you cant hate them "Because mmmmmmhhhhhhhmmmmmmm" SO THERE."

[Majin Buu]

Personally, I feel it's the other way around, the more people say "But they're not superheroes" to excuse how unlikable the characters act, the more it sounds like lip service to me.

That makes them unlikable to you, not me.

Am I supposed to think Goku and co. making incredibly selfish and arrogant decisions that come off as plain stupidity makes them interesting or engaging characters or something?

No, because you clearly don't; but like I've said before in other threads, being flawed like that makes for character dynamics that I personally find interesting.

[Cure Dragon 255]

You didnt

Then why did you act like I did?

Because I legit couldnt see how anyone could defend it if its not just "wanting to stick to Toriyama's vision", I mean I know art is subjective, and indeed the characters not saving the day immediately and not using the most quick actions to end threads IS subjective, and MUCH good did come out of waiting instead. If they had killed the androids back then, No 17 and 18, no little Marron, and Trunks wouldnt have been able to get as strong as he did. And you are right, the characters not being superheroes and indeed its not like they IGNORED Trunks. You are right.


But what I truly object to is the people who keep chanting "THEY ARENT SUPERHEROES" seem to be missing the "Art is subjective" part and militantly go "No you are not supposed to loathe Goku for this decision, if you dont like Goku and his friends for doing this, you are missing the point."

If you are NOT saying it the second way then we already agree and there really isnt much to discuss, but if you do then I do heartily disagree.

[AliTheZombie13]

I love this post but it was much stronger without this section past the word "moment".

[...]

Because then it seems it shoots itself in the foot, because your critics will point that out and say you missed the point, the wording makes it seem like YOU DO think they are heroes and just dissapointed they arent. If you reworded it to...

I was merely highlighting the irony. The characters aren't heroes. Okay. But then, the story backpedals to treating them like heroes. Why is Goku going through the trouble of relocating to empty areas if he's not a hero who doesn't care about silly things like the fate of the world? Why is he getting angry that innocents are dying when the villains refuse to do just that? I thought he wasn't a hero?

Why is he receiving rewards in the afterlife if he's not a hero who doesn't care about silly things like the fate of the world? Surely, Enma saw his profile and decided he wouldn't keep his body, because he kept staking the fate of the universe on his own selfish desire for fighting? Nah, Goku's a hero and deserves to be rewarded for it, the afterlife gods said so! But I thought Toriyama said he wasn't a good person at all? If Goku is not a hero and he isn't a good person, then what is all of this?

Remember the Super anime? There's an entire episode of Bergamo calling Goku a villain. The writers, however, try to damage control Goku's reputation, "Oh, that scoundrel, trying to make Goku look like the bad guy!" Okay, what? I thought Goku not being a good person at all was the intention all along? Why is this here, then?

But then Goku gleefully accepts this notion, "If that makes me a villain, then I might as well be one." Then Goku wins his fight against Bergamo, and Bergamo reminds him he really is a villain. While Bergamo tries to save the universes from erasure, Goku spends the entire time not caring and just excited for a good fighting session, to the point of telling everybody with a smile on his face he can't wait to clobber all the other universes, despite how this will essentially kill them.

And yet, the writers STILL try to damage-control Goku, "Oh no, he's not a villain, we swear. He's just really excited to get everybody killed!"

----

But again, whether the story, the writers or the fans consider Goku a hero/villain for all of this is completely irrelevant to the point here: His actions make him completely despicable and impossible to root for.

I would have no trouble with the Tournament of Power, for example, if it featured a Goku who didn't like what he was doing, but was doing it anyway because he's solely interested in his own survival and the survival of his universe and his enjoyment for the resulting fighting came second. In fact, I would argue that would make him infinitely more interesting than what we got in the end: a clueless manchild who is excited to kill people, because his one-track mind can't comprehend the implications of what he's doing, and who never suffers any consequences for his actions and never reflects on the damage he's causing.

Bottom line is, I don't find Goku interesting or engaging whenever he decides to act like this, I find him annoying. Toriyama's intention be damned, Goku (and by extension the rest of the cast in this instance) is not a pleasant character to watch.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I love this post but it was much stronger without this section past the word "moment".

[...]

Because then it seems it shoots itself in the foot, because your critics will point that out and say you missed the point, the wording makes it seem like YOU DO think they are heroes and just dissapointed they arent. If you reworded it to...

I was merely highlighting the irony. The characters aren't heroes. Okay. But then, the story backpedals to treating them like heroes. Why is Goku going through the trouble of relocating to empty areas if he's not a hero who doesn't care about silly things like the fate of the world? Why is he getting angry that innocents are dying when the villains refuse to do just that? I thought he wasn't a hero?

Why is he receiving rewards in the afterlife if he's not a hero who doesn't care about silly things like the fate of the world? Surely, Enma saw his profile and decided he wouldn't keep his body, because he kept staking the fate of the universe on his own selfish desire for fighting? Nah, Goku's a hero and deserves to be rewarded for it, the afterlife gods said so! But I thought Toriyama said he wasn't a good person at all? If Goku is not a hero and he isn't a good person, then what is all of this?

Remember the Super anime? There's an entire episode of Bergamo calling Goku a villain. The writers, however, try to damage control Goku's reputation, "Oh, that scoundrel, trying to make Goku look like the bad guy!" Okay, what? I thought Goku not being a good person at all was the intention all along? Why is this here, then?

But then Goku gleefully accepts this notion, "If that makes me a villain, then I might as well be one." Then Goku wins his fight against Bergamo, and Bergamo reminds him he really is a villain. While Bergamo tries to save the universes from erasure, Goku spends the entire time not caring and just excited for a good fighting session, to the point of telling everybody with a smile on his face he can't wait to clobber all the other universes, despite how this will essentially kill them.

And yet, the writers STILL try to damage-control Goku, "Oh no, he's not a villain, we swear. He's just really excited to get everybody killed!"

----

But again, whether the story, the writers or the fans consider Goku a hero/villain for all of this is completely irrelevant to the point here: His actions make him completely despicable and impossible to root for.

I would have no trouble with the Tournament of Power, for example, if it featured a Goku who didn't like what he was doing, but was doing it anyway because he's solely interested in his own survival and the survival of his universe and his enjoyment for the resulting fighting came second. In fact, I would argue that would make him infinitely more interesting than what we got in the end: a clueless manchild who is excited to kill people, because his one-track mind can't comprehend the implications of what he's doing, and who never suffers any consequences for his actions and never reflects on the damage he's causing.

Bottom line is, I don't find Goku interesting or engaging whenever he decides to act like this, I find him annoying. Toriyama's intention be damned, Goku (and by extension the rest of the cast in this instance) is not a pleasant character to watch.

To be honest, you are losing me a bit with the whole "Story is still treating Goku as a hero" because when he said that I dont think the writers sided with him because he was a hero, but rather he's the protagonist and thus despite not aproving Goku's actions it is still on his side because of the focus on him.

I would agree with you if you had brought up that episode in the TOP near the end where Goku's friends try to talk him up and say "He worries and cares about us, he protects us!" or something like that when that is A COMPLETE LIE. THAT is the writers trying for us to like Goku and that the writers lost the self awareness they had before.

To be honest, none of this matters, I do agree Goku is unlikeable. We are long past the point of "Is Goku a hero". We are now at "Am I wrong for not stomaching this and wanting for Goku to FUCK OFF" and while art is subjective so it neither side will be 100% right YOU ARE NOT wrong in feeling the way you do.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I love this post but it was much stronger without this section past the word "moment".

[...]

Because then it seems it shoots itself in the foot, because your critics will point that out and say you missed the point, the wording makes it seem like YOU DO think they are heroes and just dissapointed they arent. If you reworded it to...

I was merely highlighting the irony. The characters aren't heroes. Okay. But then, the story backpedals to treating them like heroes. Why is Goku going through the trouble of relocating to empty areas if he's not a hero who doesn't care about silly things like the fate of the world? Why is he getting angry that innocents are dying when the villains refuse to do just that? I thought he wasn't a hero?

Why is he receiving rewards in the afterlife if he's not a hero who doesn't care about silly things like the fate of the world? Surely, Enma saw his profile and decided he wouldn't keep his body, because he kept staking the fate of the universe on his own selfish desire for fighting? Nah, Goku's a hero and deserves to be rewarded for it, the afterlife gods said so! But I thought Toriyama said he wasn't a good person at all? If Goku is not a hero and he isn't a good person, then what is all of this?

Remember the Super anime? There's an entire episode of Bergamo calling Goku a villain. The writers, however, try to damage control Goku's reputation, "Oh, that scoundrel, trying to make Goku look like the bad guy!" Okay, what? I thought Goku not being a good person at all was the intention all along? Why is this here, then?

But then Goku gleefully accepts this notion, "If that makes me a villain, then I might as well be one." Then Goku wins his fight against Bergamo, and Bergamo reminds him he really is a villain. While Bergamo tries to save the universes from erasure, Goku spends the entire time not caring and just excited for a good fighting session, to the point of telling everybody with a smile on his face he can't wait to clobber all the other universes, despite how this will essentially kill them.

And yet, the writers STILL try to damage-control Goku, "Oh no, he's not a villain, we swear. He's just really excited to get everybody killed!"

----

But again, whether the story, the writers or the fans consider Goku a hero/villain for all of this is completely irrelevant to the point here: His actions make him completely despicable and impossible to root for.

I would have no trouble with the Tournament of Power, for example, if it featured a Goku who didn't like what he was doing, but was doing it anyway because he's solely interested in his own survival and the survival of his universe and his enjoyment for the resulting fighting came second. In fact, I would argue that would make him infinitely more interesting than what we got in the end: a clueless manchild who is excited to kill people, because his one-track mind can't comprehend the implications of what he's doing, and who never suffers any consequences for his actions and never reflects on the damage he's causing.

Bottom line is, I don't find Goku interesting or engaging whenever he decides to act like this, I find him annoying. Toriyama's intention be damned, Goku (and by extension the rest of the cast in this instance) is not a pleasant character to watch.

To be honest, you are losing me a bit with the whole "Story is still treating Goku as a hero" because when he said that I dont think the writers sided with him because he was a hero, but rather he's the protagonist and thus despite not aproving Goku's actions it is still on his side because of the focus on him.

I would agree with you if you had brought up that episode in the TOP near the end where Goku's friends try to talk him up and say "He worries and cares about us, he protects us!" or something like that when that is A COMPLETE LIE. THAT is the writers trying for us to like Goku and that the writers lost the self awareness they had before.

To be honest, none of this matters, I do agree Goku is unlikeable. We are long past the point of "Is Goku a hero". We are now at "Am I wrong for not stomaching this and wanting for Goku to FUCK OFF" and while art is subjective so it neither side will be 100% right YOU ARE NOT wrong in feeling the way you do.

[AliTheZombie13]

To be honest, you are losing me a bit with the whole "Story is still treating Goku as a hero" because when he said that I dont think the writers sided with him because he was a hero, but rather he's the protagonist and thus despite not aproving Goku's actions it is still on his side because of the focus on him.

What I mean is, there is a clear contradiction between what Toriyama paints Goku as, and what the story paints him as.

Goku is not a hero, just a martial artist who is so into fighting he ends up saving the world by pure accident. So, he's not a good person, but he's so purely obsessed with fighting that he might as well be pure.

But other than DB Super, I never got that impression reading the original manga. It felt more like Goku was a guy who liked fighting and testing himself, but that wasn't all there was to him. It just so happened others were constantly endangering his friends and the planet he lived in, so he was forced to fight to protect those. Whatever that makes of him, I really don't get the impression that he is some accidental hero douche like Ash Williams or something.

It's only in DB Super that what Toriyama apparently always wanted to portray him as really starts to show up, but even then, the story is hard-set on convincing you that despite all of his flaws, including wanting to fight people despite the deadly consequences that will bring, he's still a good person (as evidenced by the Bergamo scenes). But hold on... I thought Goku wasn't supposed to be a good person? Then why is the story trying to convince me he is?

Take the very scene this thread is about, for example. "Oh look, Goku is staking the world for his ego!!! See, kids??? He's a douche who's only interested in fighting and- Oh, never mind, look, he's talking about how he doesn't want to do anything because Gero didn't do anything wrong and it's wrong to kill people! See? Goku is really a merciful, kind hero who wouldn't hurt a fly!"

And all I can think in moments like this is that neither Toriyama, nor the writers can make up their minds about what they want Goku to be. Do you want Goku to be a selfish asshole who saves the world by pure accident? Cool, then stop dialing it back like you didn't mean it 2 seconds later. Stop having him get angry when innocents die if he's supposed to be "not a good person", stop having him sacrifice himself to keep the Earth safe if he's supposed to be "not a hero."

That's what I mean. You either follow Toriyama's statements blindly, that Goku isn't a good person, or you're immediately contradicted by the story calling him a good person and rewarding him for being such.

[miguelnuva1]

Goku is a good person. Goku is selfish which is what Toriyama should have been saying. He never does anything like a bad person even when he makes bad choices.

[MasenkoHA]

You don’t have to be a superhero to not want the world to be destroyed by murderous robots.

You also don't have to be a superhero to not want the world destroyed by a demon king but Goku still refused outside help because he wanted to win a tournament and abide by tournament rules.

The "they're not superheroes" thing probably keeps getting brough up because fans get upset when the character don’t act altruistic.

Of course they don't want the world destroyed by murderous robots, they also expect with 3 years warning they can properly train to stop said murderous robots.

t. As I said, I don’t believe he was thinking too deeply about that. He needed an explanation for why the character wouldn’t use the Dragon Balls to stop Dr. Gero, so he gave one on the spot and then moved on.

Well yeah, the whole thing amounts to Toriyama acknowledging the obvious solution to the conflict presented and making the handwave. Even if fans don't like the "we want to test our skills" argument (which I maintain is missing the point of Dragon Ball entirely) there's still Goku's "Gero hasn't technically done anything wrong YET" argument he presented to Bulma.

[WittyUsername]

You don’t have to be a superhero to not want the world to be destroyed by murderous robots.

You also don't have to be a superhero to not want the world destroyed by a demon king but Goku still refused outside help because he wanted to win a tournament and abide by tournament rules.

The "they're not superheroes" thing probably keeps getting brough up because fans get upset when the character don’t act altruistic.

Of course they don't want the world destroyed by murderous robots, they also expect with 3 years warning they can properly train to stop said murderous robots.

t. As I said, I don’t believe he was thinking too deeply about that. He needed an explanation for why the character wouldn’t use the Dragon Balls to stop Dr. Gero, so he gave one on the spot and then moved on.

Well yeah, the whole thing amounts to Toriyama acknowledging the obvious solution to the conflict presented and making the handwave. Even if fans don't like the "we want to test our skills" argument (which I maintain is missing the point of Dragon Ball entirely) there's still Goku's "Gero hasn't technically done anything wrong YET" argument he presented to Bulma.

See, my problem is that, more often than not, when people bring up the “they’re not superheroes” argument, it comes off like they’re trying really hard to remind everyone that Funimation (and Toei to a lesser extent) got Goku all wrong. Goku isn’t Superman, we get it. People need to find a different talking point when they want to justify the characters doing things that others might find stupid.

Anyway, as I said, my issue here isn’t even necessarily that the characters choose to let Gero build the artificial humans. It’s that they conveniently forget about how much they wanted to fight the artificial humans once they learn about 17 and 18. You can give it any rationalization you want, but I think it’s a simple case of inconsistent writing. I don’t think Toriyama was trying to convey the idea that the Dragon Team learned from their mistake. He just realized that the characters not being proactive would make for a boring story.