The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

[ABED]

, but rather, that he was an irresponsible battle-crazed Saiyan who chose to stake the fate of the world over his desire to fight the Cyborgs at the beginning of the Cell Saga.

His argument to Bulma was also "He [Gero] hasn't done anything wrong yet"

We could point out that by being a scientist for the Red Ribbon Army he has indeed done wrong and is complicit in the murder of who knows how many people but that becomes a question of ethics I suppose.

At the end of the day "We should stop Gero from even creating the Artificial Humans." "Nah let it play out" is Toriyama just realizing the obvious solution to the conflict he introduced (they have a magic wish granting dragon that could prevent this future from even happening) and giving a handwave so the story could actually happen. So I don't see a point in getting too bothered by Goku and the other characters actions. It's not like Bulma couldn't have gone rogue and found the dragon balls herself and made the wish to drop Gero in a lava pit or something. So she either ultimately agreed with Goku's argument or respected his real wishes as a martial artist.

Mind you, this was after Vegeta threatened to kill her, she asked Goku for help, and Goku refused. After Goku refused, she asked for help from everyone else, and everyone else also decided "Nah, let it play out." And then, she decided she had no option but to follow them, since... You know... She was under a death threat.

And yes, I know the real-life reason why it played out like that is because Toriyama wrote himself into a wall. If it were me, I'd just have the characters try to search for Gero, then realize Gero had already fleed since he was spying on them using micro-robots, and then have them reluctantly decide to prepare themselves instead. Either way, that scene made every single character unsympathetic as fuck in my book, and I found myself not caring about them or the story afterwards.

If you present to me a story that's basically, "We must get out of jail, how do we do that?" And the story repeatedly hands the heroes free-get-out-of-jail cards, and the heroes proceed to destroy each one of them with their bare hands because "Nah, that's not fair." Only for them to go back into wondering "How do we get out?" 3 seconds later, you can find that story either funny or frustrating. In my case, I found it extremely, beyond-help frustrating, but that's just me.

Toriyama didn't write himself into a corner. They aren't superheroes out to save the day. It has always been well within their character to let the bad guy gather themselves so the heroes can get a good fight. This isn't an issue of plot dictating character. If they are unsympathetic, well, I don't think Toriyama would've disagreed with you. The lack of understanding of the characters and even the genre (easy to miss if you aren't from Asia) is the root of this issue.

Krillin has already shown he has enough respect for Goku to go with his wishes regardless of his own trepidations.

Exactly. He has Vegeta at his mercy and he agrees to let him go because Goku asks him to. Goku explicitly says he wants to fight Vegeta down the road.

[AliTheZombie13]

Sorry I had a brainfart and thought that you said "GT didnt do Pan Justice, Team Four Star Mentioned how in a worthile show Pan would show WHY she was taken along but on GT she just constantly gets in trouble instead-"

I really must have confused you for someone else.

Yeah, no. I don't agree with 99% of TFS' takes on GT.
Pan was taken along because she chose to take herself along, she was a brat who was way over her head, realized her mistake and grew from it. Plus, the fact that she kept stopping Goku and Trunks to stop by and help the planets' populations out of her own sense of justice meant she indirectly boosted Goku's final Genki Dama, saving everyone else in the process. She's a good character, but TFS ain't ready for that conversation.

[AliTheZombie13]

Toriyama didn't write himself into a corner. They aren't superheroes out to save the day. It has always been well within their character to let the bad guy gather themselves so the heroes can get a good fight. This isn't an issue of plot dictating character. If they are unsympathetic, well, I don't think Toriyama would've disagreed with you.

Yes, because when facing King Piccolo, Yamcha, Chiaotzu and Tenshinhan totally didn't have "learning the Mafuba" and "wishing for the Dragon Balls to kill Piccolo" as their first go-to solution to the problem. No, their first go-to was "I'll personally fight him to test my abilities, and if I die, so be it." That never happened, right?

The lack of understanding of the characters and even the genre (easy to miss if you aren't from Asia) is the root of this issue.

Or I can just believe Toriyama's words when he said he was just writing things week-to-week and didn't think very deeply about what he wrote. And I can also believe Toyotaro's words that, if there was some deep meaning hidden behind Dragon Ball, Toriyama sure as hell didn't put it in there.

[MasenkoHA]

Tien? No way. He literally just came back to life after dying a gruesome death to the Saiyans, he behaved in a far more proactive fashion when he faced King Piccolo. Tien(After the 22nd world tournament) has never been characterized as someone who would intentionally jeopardize others for his own personal amusement.

Tenshinhan? Absolutely. He didn't like Muten Roshi's plan to just wish Daimao away and went in seclusion after the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai just to train to beat Goku. Next to the Saiyans he is the most "I want to test my skills as a fighter" of the entire cast.

Yes, because when facing King Piccolo, Yamcha, Chiaotzu and Tenshinhan totally didn't have "learning the Mafuba" and "wishing for the Dragon Balls to kill Piccolo" as their first go-to solution to the problem. No, their first go-to was "I'll personally fight him to test my abilities, and if I die, so be it." That never happened, right?

Except Tenshinhan DID want to fight Piccolo and didn't understand why Kame Sennin wanted Shen Long to solve the problem and just went with it out of respect.

The Mafuba is still a skill learned as a martial artist and something Tenshinhan can find value as a fighter.

Or I can just believe Toriyama's words when he said he was just writing things week-to-week and didn't think very deeply about what he wrote. And I can also believe Toyotaro's words that, if there was some deep meaning hidden behind Dragon Ball, Toriyama sure as hell didn't put it in there.

Nobody is arguing that Dragon Ball is deep or well thought out. The argument is people finding it a flaw in the writing that characters priorize own selfish desire as fighters when that literally is the point

[ABED]

Toriyama didn't write himself into a corner. They aren't superheroes out to save the day. It has always been well within their character to let the bad guy gather themselves so the heroes can get a good fight. This isn't an issue of plot dictating character. If they are unsympathetic, well, I don't think Toriyama would've disagreed with you.

Yes, because when facing King Piccolo, Yamcha, Chiaotzu and Tenshinhan totally didn't have "learning the Mafuba" and "wishing for the Dragon Balls to kill Piccolo" as their first go-to solution to the problem. No, their first go-to was "I'll personally fight him to test my abilities, and if I die, so be it." That never happened, right?

The lack of understanding of the characters and even the genre (easy to miss if you aren't from Asia) is the root of this issue.

Or I can just believe Toriyama's words when he said he was just writing things week-to-week and didn't think very deeply about what he wrote. And I can also believe Toyotaro's words that, if there was some deep meaning hidden behind Dragon Ball, Toriyama sure as hell didn't put it in there.

Are we just going to dismiss the numerous other examples of the characters letting the bad guys go for the sake of a better fight? What about Goku placing more importance on winning the tournament title than the fate of the world?

Your last paragraph tells me you have your mind made up on this regardless of counterexamples. What does week to week writing have to do with the issue? This isn't an issue of deeper meaning. Toriyama just understands his characters and he didn't write himself into a corner. At the start of the Cyborg arc, when talking about this very issue, they talk about all of this stuff. They are very upfront with their reasons for letting Dr. Gero complete his creations. it's not like he started a plot and down the line realized it contradicted his characters' motivations. All of their motives are spelled out at the beginning of the story arc.

[AliTheZombie13]

Nobody is arguing that Dragon Ball is deep or well thought out. The argument is people finding it a flaw in the writing that characters priorize own selfish desire as fighters when that literally is the point

I don't know, but maybe I think there is a world of difference between, "I would prefer if I took the bad guy down myself" to "If you dare to solve the problem before it becomes a problem, then I'll kill you. My fight with the bad guy is more important than your life!"

I'm not saying it's a writing flaw, specifically. I'm saying it renders every single character there unsympathetic.
And depending on who you ask, having unsympathetic characters lead your story might be or might not be a problem.
Your mileage might vary, but I personally find such stories a chore to get through.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Sorry I had a brainfart and thought that you said "GT didnt do Pan Justice, Team Four Star Mentioned how in a worthile show Pan would show WHY she was taken along but on GT she just constantly gets in trouble instead-"

I really must have confused you for someone else.

Yeah, no. I don't agree with 99% of TFS' takes on GT.
Pan was taken along because she chose to take herself along, she was a brat who was way over her head, realized her mistake and grew from it. Plus, the fact that she kept stopping Goku and Trunks to stop by and help the planets' populations out of her own sense of justice meant she indirectly boosted Goku's final Genki Dama, saving everyone else in the process. She's a good character, but TFS ain't ready for that conversation.

To be honest I love this take, I dont actually like TFS lol.

[MasenkoHA]

Nobody is arguing that Dragon Ball is deep or well thought out. The argument is people finding it a flaw in the writing that characters priorize own selfish desire as fighters when that literally is the point

I don't know, but maybe I think there is a world of difference between, "I would prefer if I took the bad guy down myself" to "If you dare to solve the problem before it becomes a problem, then I'll kill you. My fight with the bad guy is more important than your life!"

I'm not saying it's a writing flaw, specifically. I'm saying it renders every single character there unsympathetic.
And depending on who you ask, having unsympathetic characters lead your story might be or might not be a problem.
Your mileage might vary, but I personally find such stories a chore to get through.

But the only person who made a threat on Bulma's life was Vegeta...a bad guy.

Goku went with a more pragmatic appeal to ethics approach (even though we obviously know he just wanted to fight the cyborgs)

:

[tonysoprano300]

Alright then Ill ask some questions, if the entire cast are obsessed with the prospect of a good fight then why is it that in this very same arc they were extremely desperate to stop Gero from getting back to his Lab? If anything they should be even more confident they could stop the androids given how easily Piccolo and Vegeta dispatched 19&20. Why did they care about stopping Cell from achieving his perfect form? Why did they kill baby Cell by blowing up Geros Lab and then hand the schematics they found to Bulma so she could find a weakness? Why did Goku himself become angry with Gohan for not taking Cell seriously? Why were they all mad at Vegeta for allowing Cell to reach perfection?

For me the answer is simple, its plot. But if there are legitimate explanations for these things I'm genuinely curious.

Buu saga did this exact thing way better imo

[ABED]

Nobody is arguing that Dragon Ball is deep or well thought out. The argument is people finding it a flaw in the writing that characters priorize own selfish desire as fighters when that literally is the point

I don't know, but maybe I think there is a world of difference between, "I would prefer if I took the bad guy down myself" to "If you dare to solve the problem before it becomes a problem, then I'll kill you. My fight with the bad guy is more important than your life!"

I'm not saying it's a writing flaw, specifically. I'm saying it renders every single character there unsympathetic.
And depending on who you ask, having unsympathetic characters lead your story might be or might not be a problem.
Your mileage might vary, but I personally find such stories a chore to get through.

Again, Toriyama would likely agree that they aren't sympathetic at this point.

I do wonder why you have an aversion to unsympathetic characters.

For me the answer is simple, its plot. But if there are legitimate explanations for these things I'm genuinely curious.

Goku was out of action when Dr. Gero fled to activate 17 and 18. Their reason for wanting to fight the cyborgs was that Goku would be alive to fight them.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Alright then Ill ask some questions, if the entire cast are obsessed with the prospect of a good fight then why is it that in this very same arc they were extremely desperate to stop Gero from getting back to his Lab? If anything they should be even more confident they could stop the androids given how easily Piccolo and Vegeta dispatched 19&20. Why did they care about stopping Cell from achieving his perfect form? Why did they kill baby Cell by blowing up Geros Lab and then hand the schematics they found to Bulma so she could find a weakness? Why did Goku himself become angry with Gohan for not taking Cell seriously? Why were they all mad at Vegeta for allowing Cell to reach perfection?

For me the answer is simple, its plot. But if there are legitimate explanations for these things I'm genuinely curious.

It was Trunks who did this. There is no contradiction in him acting because he went "These morons can fuck right off, I am doing this myself."

[AliTheZombie13]

But the only person who made a threat on Bulma's life was Vegeta...a bad guy.

Goku went with a more pragmatic appeal to ethics approach (even though we obviously know he just wanted to fight the cyborgs)

The conversation goes exactly like this:

Bulma: "What if we use the Dragon Balls?"
Vegeta: "If anybody deprives me of a good fight, I'll kill you!"
Bulma: "Goku, help me out!"
Goku: "Sorry, I want to fight them. Besides, this guy didn't even do anything (yet), so killing him is err..."
Bulma: "What about everyone else? We don't need to follow these Saiyan maniacs!"
Everyone else: "Sorry, we want to fight them, too!"
Kuririn: "Um... Bulma... Have you forgotten Vegeta is the strongest guy around? Let's try not to piss him off, okay?"
Bulma: "Ugh, don't come crying to me when the Cyborgs kill you all!

The conflict here centers around three facts:
1) They have the means to stop the threat. (The entire cast)
2) Vegeta will kill those who dare to use those means. (Bulma, Kuririn)
3) Nobody will do anything about Vegeta's threats, because they also want a good fight. (Goku, Piccolo, Gohan, Tenshinhan, Yamcha and Chiaotzu)

So back to my original point: No, Bulma can't theoretically go rogue, because she's under a death threat, and her "friends" won't do anything about it.

[VegettoEX]

Two quick points:

There's a conversation happening here that isn't related to the original topic at hand. You're free to have that conversation, and I'd encourage you to do so... in a more-appropriate spot (either an existing thread covering it, or creating a new one yourself).

And then the second point here is for some of the usual suspects, but you do not have to constantly post. If you're not adding anything of substance to the actual conversation, please stop to consider why it is you're making a post in the first place please and thank you!

[ABED]

While Toriyama's canon has ended, canon is a mutable concept so it's not some big loss. What is the loss is that after Daima, that's really it for his ideas. The fact that we're getting anything new is nice though.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Two quick points:

There's a conversation happening here that isn't related to the original topic at hand. You're free to have that conversation, and I'd encourage you to do so... in a more-appropriate spot (either an existing thread covering it, or creating a new one yourself).

And then the second point here is for some of the usual suspects, but you do not have to constantly post. If you're not adding anything of substance to the actual conversation, please stop to consider why it is you're making a post in the first place please and thank you!

I dont wanna be a rebel or break the rules or anything and I know you didnt bring up any posts to not be mean to the posters, but this doesnt explain which posts "Dont add anything of substance". So far everyone is engaging and not really making "Posts that are cheap filler."

EDIT: To help out Mr Vegetto EX, I just cut to the chase and made a thread about this plot point and whether it is good or not.

viewtopic.php?t=48897

[VegettoEX]

OK -- you don't need to make a post that just says: "To be honest I love this take, I dont actually like TFS lol."

(Related: you don't need to make a post that just says "OH MY GOD THIS POST!" quoting a post that goes against our community guidelines.)

You also don't need to respond to this post saying you acknowledge this post. Just take the necessary action going forward. Thank you!

[Gapudo]

I have a question, if Super is canon then why Piccolo has 5 fingers?

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

I have a question, if Super is canon then why Piccolo has 5 fingers?

Canon and continuity inconsistency are not mutually exclusive, otherwise the original manga would be non canon with itself.

[AliTheZombie13]

I have a question, if Super is canon then why Piccolo has 5 fingers?

Canon doesn't matter past the original manga. Both the manga and anime of Super include characters of the anime adaptation of Z, who should logically not exist if Super were following the manga strictly. It also includes details like Mt. Paozu and follow-up to events that happened exclusively in Z, like the Bulma and the Ginyu Frog shenanigans. It's better to just treat Super as its own continuity.

[MasenkoHA]

. It's better to just treat Super as its own continuity.

This really is the best way to approach Super. Otherwise you'll give yourself a headache wondering why Gohan is still a nerd who doesn't fight, why Goku still cares about Oob after fighting significantly stronger opponents than Majin Boo, why everyone was talking about the peaceful times after Boo despite Beerus threatening to destroy the earth , Freeza coming back, the Zamasu ordeal, Moro etc.