Do you consider Goku a Hero?

[Koitsukai]

Going outside the series, so many fans cite his constant drive for self-improvement as an inspiration, and I think that's something that stands regardless of the question of his hero status.

This is also something that is worth to mention. According to the interivews, if I can recall them correctly, Toriyama used to say Goku isn't worthy of admiration because of being selfish, the poison and what-not. So, I wonder how he felt about so many people looking up -for whatever reason- to this character he basically described as an asshole and a terrible father.
Those interviews always had a troll-vibe to me, like fuck your hero, he is actually fucking evil deep down type of replies.

To piggyback on the current discussion:

I feel there was always a disconnect between what he wrote, what people(anime viewers, TOEI) took away from it, and what he actually wanted to write, and of course his overcorrection.
The original series had the perfect balance for me, maybe not perfect by the end, but he was definitely aware of his shortcomings and mistakes. It's with the follow up series that things lean towards the Homer side (DBS) or the Superman side (GT). But the original material had Goku dialed perfectly between the doofus and the chad.

[Teddy_Beer]

He's an alien who enjoys fighting strong oppoents first and foremost. Yes he saved the world on many occasions but fighting for truth and justice are not his main motivations. They're indirect consequences of his actions.

- He saved the world from the Red Ribbon Army but his main goal was finding the four star Dragon Ball and eventually bringing his friend's dead father back to life. The RR army were in his way, so he took 'em out.

- He saved the world from Demon King Piccolo, but his motivation was not to save the world from his dastardly deeds...it was revenge for his fallen friends.

- On his way to Namek, his goal was not to save the planet from Freeza's reign of terror...he was pumped up because he was going to fight someone stronger than Vegeta, who was at the time the most powerful opponent he had faced.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Hironobu Kagayama's Aitsu Wa Son Goku (That Guy Is Son Goku) goes "Son GOKU OMAE KOZO GA HERO" which means "YOU ARE A HERO SON GOKU" and its hard to disagree with Kageyama-san.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Also I LOVE how the "Goku Is Not A Super Hero" narrative fails to take account that most super heroes ESPECIALLY western ones make Goku look like Mr Rogers and even HE would object to all the pointless cruelty and sociopathy. The notion that western superheroes are fluffy soft sweethearts is hilarious.

And despite being inspired by western super heroes Science Ninja Team Gatchaman's main cast can be said to be almost sociopathic, ironically one of these "Edgy Superheroes Writers" was Mark Millar who grew up with the sanitized Battle Of The Planets.


I know nobody here likes Pretty Cure but I think what these people want to say is "Goku is not A PRETTY CURE" as in a overwhelmingly responsible, kind, and just hero. This is what they want to say but dont know the term Pretty Cure.

Also USAGI was another "Victim" of Toei's "The main character is a total sweet heart" syndrome. Manga Usagi is way less forgiving and much more serious than 1992's Toei Usagi.

[super michael]

He's an alien who enjoys fighting strong oppoents first and foremost. Yes he saved the world on many occasions but fighting for truth and justice are not his main motivations. They're indirect consequences of his actions.

- He saved the world from the Red Ribbon Army but his main goal was finding the 4 star Dragon Ball and eventually bringing his friend's dead father to life. The RR army were simply in his way.

- He saved the world from Demon King Piccolo, but he was completely motivated by revenge.

- On his way to Namek, he was pumped up because he was going to fight someone stronger than Vegeta, who was so far his most powerful opponent.

Reviving someone can be considered heroic, along with going out of his way to reactivate the Dragon Balls to revive those that died.
We know if someone ask Goku for help, Goku normally helps them out even if it doesn't involve in any battle.
When Goku see trouble infront of him, he will help them out.

Goku didn't want to fight Fat Boo, he put his priority on training fighters for future threats. However he never planned on needing to stall Fat Boo, to get the Dragon Ball Radar.


Goku isn't like the Justice League that are constantly watching the earth if there are any trouble. Goku doesn't watch the news to see if there are trouble on earth.

Also I LOVE how the "Goku Is Not A Super Hero" narrative fails to take account that most super heroes ESPECIALLY western ones make Goku look like Mr Rogers and even HE would object to all the pointless cruelty and sociopathy. The notion that western superheroes are fluffy soft sweethearts is hilarious.

And despite being inspired by western super heroes Science Ninja Team Gatchaman's main cast can be said to be almost sociopathic, ironically one of these "Edgy Superheroes Writers" was Mark Millar who grew up with the sanitized Battle Of The Planets.


I know nobody here likes Pretty Cure but I think what these people want to say is "Goku is not A PRETTY CURE" as in a overwhelmingly responsible, kind, and just hero. This is what they want to say but dont know the term Pretty Cure.

Also USAGI was another "Victim" of Toei's "The main character is a total sweet heart" syndrome. Manga Usagi is way less forgiving and much more serious than 1992's Toei Usagi.

Can you give some examples about western superheroes? I am curious to see how western superheroes compares to Goku.
I never watched Battle Of The Planets, so I have no idea. Same applies to Science Ninja Team Gatchaman I never watched it.

I think you are a good member, I don't have any problem with you at all.

I didn't know Usagi in the anime was different than the manga, I only watched the anime in Japanese sub. I can't remember if I watched it in spanish dub.

[Cure Dragon 255]

He's an alien who enjoys fighting strong oppoents first and foremost. Yes he saved the world on many occasions but fighting for truth and justice are not his main motivations. They're indirect consequences of his actions.

- He saved the world from the Red Ribbon Army but his main goal was finding the 4 star Dragon Ball and eventually bringing his friend's dead father to life. The RR army were simply in his way.

- He saved the world from Demon King Piccolo, but he was completely motivated by revenge.

- On his way to Namek, he was pumped up because he was going to fight someone stronger than Vegeta, who was so far his most powerful opponent.

Reviving someone can be considered heroic, along with going out of his way to reactivate the Dragon Balls to revive those that died.
We know if someone ask Goku for help, Goku normally helps them out even if it doesn't involve in any battle.
When Goku see trouble infront of him, he will help them out.

Goku didn't want to fight Fat Boo, he put his priority on training fighters for future threats. However he never planned on needing to stall Fat Boo, to get the Dragon Ball Radar.


Goku isn't like the Justice League that are constantly watching the earth if there are any trouble. Goku doesn't watch the news to see if there are trouble on earth.

Also I LOVE how the "Goku Is Not A Super Hero" narrative fails to take account that most super heroes ESPECIALLY western ones make Goku look like Mr Rogers and even HE would object to all the pointless cruelty and sociopathy. The notion that western superheroes are fluffy soft sweethearts is hilarious.

And despite being inspired by western super heroes Science Ninja Team Gatchaman's main cast can be said to be almost sociopathic, ironically one of these "Edgy Superheroes Writers" was Mark Millar who grew up with the sanitized Battle Of The Planets.


I know nobody here likes Pretty Cure but I think what these people want to say is "Goku is not A PRETTY CURE" as in a overwhelmingly responsible, kind, and just hero. This is what they want to say but dont know the term Pretty Cure.

Also USAGI was another "Victim" of Toei's "The main character is a total sweet heart" syndrome. Manga Usagi is way less forgiving and much more serious than 1992's Toei Usagi.

Can you give some examples about western superheroes? I am curious to see how western superheroes compares to Goku.
I never watched Battle Of The Planets, so I have no idea. Same applies to Science Ninja Team Gatchaman I never watched it.

I think you are a good member, I don't have any problem with you at all.

I didn't know Usagi in the anime was different than the manga, I only watched the anime in Japanese sub. I can't remember if I watched it in spanish dub.

OMG this is so sweet, thanks michael. To be honest I dont read western comic books either but stuff like The Boys, AND Watchmen can give you a taste of what the western superhero landscape is like.

Superman has never given in to this sociopathic bent of recent Superheroes. He's always been the good guy and I love him.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Also I LOVE how the "Goku Is Not A Super Hero" narrative fails to take account that most super heroes ESPECIALLY western ones make Goku look like Mr Rogers and even HE would object to all the pointless cruelty and sociopathy. The notion that western superheroes are fluffy soft sweethearts is hilarious.

The ironic thing is that the superhero movies held in high esteem by critics are the ones that have dark subject matter like Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy where you have a main character who will be threatening and aggressive if its needed. Conversely Superman movies especially Zack Snyder's Man of Steel don't have as good a track record.

And yes you can argue critics generally seem to agree the MCU movies were fine, but I don't get the impression any of them think Endgame will go down as one of the all-time greats or be seen in 20 years as little more than a solid popcorn flick at the time.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Also I LOVE how the "Goku Is Not A Super Hero" narrative fails to take account that most super heroes ESPECIALLY western ones make Goku look like Mr Rogers and even HE would object to all the pointless cruelty and sociopathy. The notion that western superheroes are fluffy soft sweethearts is hilarious.

The ironic thing is that the superhero movies held in high esteem by critics are the ones that have dark subject matter like Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy. Conversely Superman movies especially Zack Snyder's Man of Steel don't have as good a track record.

And yes you can argue critics generally seem to agree the MCU movies were fine, but I don't get the impression any of them think Endgame will go down as one of the all-time greats or be seen in 20 years as little more than a solid popcorn flick at the time.

To be fair, Zack Snyder's Superman IS INDEED him trying to make him an edgy superhero akin to Batman, but wisely audiences didnt bite.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Also I LOVE how the "Goku Is Not A Super Hero" narrative fails to take account that most super heroes ESPECIALLY western ones make Goku look like Mr Rogers and even HE would object to all the pointless cruelty and sociopathy. The notion that western superheroes are fluffy soft sweethearts is hilarious.

The ironic thing is that the superhero movies held in high esteem by critics are the ones that have dark subject matter like Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy. Conversely Superman movies especially Zack Snyder's Man of Steel don't have as good a track record.

And yes you can argue critics generally seem to agree the MCU movies were fine, but I don't get the impression any of them think Endgame will go down as one of the all-time greats or be seen in 20 years as little more than a solid popcorn flick at the time.

To be fair, Zack Snyder's Superman IS INDEED him trying to make him an edgy superhero akin to Batman, but wisely audiences didnt bite.

Yeah, I don't know if The Dark Knight set a precedent but a lot of people seem to think Dark automatically means good.

It's a balance any writer would need to strike with Goku because yes he can put himself and others in danger but at the same time a big part of Dragon Ball's charm is its optimism so its crucial to understand Goku's naivety. I think it adds to the sense of relief at the end of every arc that everything works out all because of Goku's dumb love for fighting.

Naturally Goku's friends and family were terrified for his life when he chose to remain on Namek but he probably saved a couple more civilizations from being enslaved by the Galactic Emperor given the state Freeza was in, probably for some time after Namek's explosion.

[AliTheZombie13]

On the topic of the difference between Manga!Usagi and Anime!Usagi, I felt Manga!Usagi was pretty much of a jerk in the first two arcs. She killed herself because she couldn't have her man, actively ignored her dying "best friends" and in general couldn't give a damn about anything else unrelated to Mamoru. She gets to the point of repeatedly accusing a child of trying to steal her man.

Despite the fact that Manga!Usagi is very much not a good person, she's still the ultimate hero, being described as the embodiment of all good in the universe by the final arc. I'm not sure if any of this was intentional or not, but even then, I didn't like her manga characterization at all. Much like Goku, I feel she veers into impossible to root for at times (Accusing her own daughter of trying to steal her man, for starters).

I feel like people need to wipe it clean off their heads that just because the author intended a character to be good/bad, it doesn't mean that makes them a good character. A "bad" character (as in, a character intended to be flawed/a bad person) still needs to be interesting and engaging, and I don't feel Goku does that by repeatedly acting like a clueless idiot.

[Teddy_Beer]

On the topic of the difference between Manga!Usagi and Anime!Usagi, I felt Manga!Usagi was pretty much of a jerk in the first two arcs. She killed herself because she couldn't have her man, actively ignored her dying "best friends" and in general couldn't give a damn about anything else unrelated to Mamoru. She gets to the point of repeatedly accusing a child of trying to steal her man.

Despite the fact that Manga!Usagi is very much not a good person, she's still the ultimate hero, being described as the embodiment of all good in the universe by the final arc. I'm not sure if any of this was intentional or not, but even then, I didn't like her manga characterization at all. Much like Goku, I feel she veers into impossible to root for at times (Accusing her own daughter of trying to steal her man, for starters).

I feel like people need to wipe it clean off their heads that just because the author intended a character to be good/bad, it doesn't mean that makes them a good character.

Sorry to derail from the topic but this needs to be addressed:

90s Anime Usagi was far from an angel.

In the climax of S, she was going to have everybody killed just to save ONE LITTLE GIRL. In the Manga and Crystal equivalent, she tried to sacrifice herself to save everyone.

Manga/Crystal Usagi wasn't as sweet but at least she got the job done.

[AliTheZombie13]

Sorry to derail from the topic but this needs to be addressed:

90s Anime Usagi was far from an angel.

In the climax of S, she was going to have everybody killed just to save ONE LITTLE GIRL. In the Manga and Crystal equivalent, she tried to sacrifice herself to save everyone.

Manga/Crystal Usagi wasn't as sweet but at least she got the job done.

Kind of related to the topic at hand, but "Save a single person, but doom millions in the process." Is a good source of conflict, Dragon Ball itself does that with the Kuririn/#18 shenanigans. Usagi in the anime decided she couldn't save the world if she sacrificed an innocent, while Uranus and Neptune were clearly against that and tried to stop her for the sake of the world. IMO, that makes them infinitely more interesting than "So you care more about our future daughter than me?! How dare you!"

Again, Naoko intended Usagi to be the ultimate hero, but she's flawed. How the author explores these flaws is important. I don't feel Manga!Usagi had a good pay-off to her jealousy of Chibi-Usa. Likewise, most of the time, I don't feel Toriyama had a good pay-off to Goku's, "But I want to doom the world for a good fight, because I'm a Saiyan!"

[Cure Dragon 255]

On the topic of the difference between Manga!Usagi and Anime!Usagi, I felt Manga!Usagi was pretty much of a jerk in the first two arcs. She killed herself because she couldn't have her man, actively ignored her dying "best friends" and in general couldn't give a damn about anything else unrelated to Mamoru. She gets to the point of repeatedly accusing a child of trying to steal her man.

Despite the fact that Manga!Usagi is very much not a good person, she's still the ultimate hero, being described as the embodiment of all good in the universe by the final arc. I'm not sure if any of this was intentional or not, but even then, I didn't like her manga characterization at all. Much like Goku, I feel she veers into impossible to root for at times (Accusing her own daughter of trying to steal her man, for starters).

I feel like people need to wipe it clean off their heads that just because the author intended a character to be good/bad, it doesn't mean that makes them a good character.

Sorry to derail from the topic but this needs to be addressed:

90s Anime Usagi was far from an angel.

In the climax of S, she was going to have everybody killed just to save ONE LITTLE GIRL. In the Manga and Crystal equivalent, she tried to sacrifice herself to save everyone.

Manga/Crystal Usagi wasn't as sweet but at least she got the job done.

Yeah no, I know people like to use this as an example of "90's anime Usagi was a wimp, who was willing to get the universe killed to save one lousy kid." I will take her ANY OTHER day over Haruka And Michiru, who are the worst excesses of "We are so sociopathic and edgy and that makes us right and better than the veteran saved the world twice already" Sailor Moon found the way to save the world with minimal pain and sorrow which REALLY offends 90's Haruka and Michiru on a deep primal level.

I DONT hate manga Usagi but I also hate the cult that is the fans of Haruka and Michiru in the 90's anime. I love Manga Haruka and Michiru because yeah, wisely avoiding Ikuhara's edgy characters boner is ALWAYS a wise decision.

Stars took it to its apex and had Uranus and Neptune kill Saturn and Pluto in the most retarded plan ever. It's so awful I need to use a slur to show how wrong and awful it was. Say whatever you will about Usagi in the 90's anime, at least she didnt default "KILL CHILDREN" as her one and only way to solve problems.

Back on Goku, I think people are TOO prima carta or whatever on the manga. I know Toriyama's vision was what created Dragon Ball, but he's not perfect and NO he isnt right all the time. We are allowed to dislike any decision of his we dont agree with.

[MasenkoHA]

The whole point of Usagi's characterization in Sailor Moon S is she didn't want ANYONE to die and believed lives didn't need to be sacrificed to save everyone. Because it's a series for six-year old girls she's proven right. I.E Pluto already has the third talisman on her person and is able to separate Uranus and Neptune's pure heart crystals from their talisman so they could live, Sailor Saturn is able to overcome Mistress 9's possession to stop Pharoh 90 so nobody had to kill Hotaru to stop the Messiah of Silence, Sailor Moon is able to temporarily recreate the Holy Grail with her own pure heart to become Super Sailor Moon again and go after Saturn so she could allow Hotaru to be reborn after her own sacrifice.

Saying she was willing to let everyone die to save one little girl is a really bad read on the material.

The whole Chibi Usa/Usagi/Mamoru love triangle is a mess in and of itself. Needless to say Usagi does not come off looking good especially after she knows Chibi Usa is her daughter. There's a whole bunch of Freudian shit and the dynamics of a 14 year old girl dating an older guy going on there that I don't think Takeuchi was able to or willing to handle.


As far as Goku and Dragon Ball is concerned, Goku's selfish desires are never really shown to have any real negative consequences. Vegeta gives up his ambition to destroy the earth, Gohan is able to kill Cell, Goku is still stronger than Freeza after letting him power up. Maybe there's an argument to be made that it should.

[Cure Dragon 255]

The whole point of Usagi's characterization in Sailor Moon S is she didn't want ANYONE to die and believed lives didn't need to be sacrificed to save everyone. Because it's a series for six-year old girls she's proven right. I.E Pluto already has the third talisman on her person and is able to separate Uranus and Neptune's pure heart crystals from their talisman so they could live, Sailor Saturn is able to overcome Mistress 9's possession to stop Pharoh 90 so nobody had to kill Hotaru to stop the Messiah of Silence, Sailor Moon is able to temporarily recreate the Holy Grail with her own pure heart to become Super Sailor Moon again and go after Saturn so she could allow Hotaru to be reborn after her own sacrifice.

Saying she was willing to let everyone die to save one little girl is a really bad read on the material.

The whole Chibi Usa/Usagi/Mamoru love triangle is a mess in and of itself. Needless to say Usagi does not come off looking good especially after she knows Chibi Usa is her daughter. There's a whole bunch of Freudian shit and the dynamics of a 14 year old girl dating an older guy going on there that I don't think Takeuchi was able to or willing to handle.


As far as Goku and Dragon Ball is concerned, Goku's selfish desires are never really shown to have any real negative consequences. Vegeta gives up his ambition to destroy the earth, Gohan is able to kill Cell, Goku is still stronger than Freeza after letting him power up. Maybe there's an argument to be made that it should.

Oh god, this post thank you. I really hate the "The Edgelords are right" deal and I wish this way of thought wasnt a thing but it is. More people need to call it out.

[Teddy_Beer]

Back on Goku, I think people are TOO prima carta or whatever on the manga. I know Toriyama's vision was what created Dragon Ball, but he's not perfect and NO he isnt right all the time. We are allowed to dislike any decision of his we dont agree with.

He's not perfect and you're certainly welcome to disagree with some plot points or character traits, but at the end of the day, it's still his story. If he wanted to do something ridiculous like give Piccolo six antennas and 12 arms or suddenly center the story around Oolong and Puar, it's his call.

Of course, I would have stopped reading if he did something like that but again...it's his call.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. I'm open to anything a writer wants to do as long as there's a genuine inspiration behind it and it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb like randomly shifting the story from being about Goku to focusing on Oolong and Puar for no reason other than to pander to a loud anti-Goku minority on the internet.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Back on Goku, I think people are TOO prima carta or whatever on the manga. I know Toriyama's vision was what created Dragon Ball, but he's not perfect and NO he isnt right all the time. We are allowed to dislike any decision of his we dont agree with.

He's not perfect and you're certainly welcome to disagree with some plot points or character traits, but at the end of the day, it's still his story. If he wanted to do something ridiculous like give Piccolo six antennas and 12 arms or suddenly center the story around Oolong and Puar, it's his call.

Of course, I would have stopped reading if he did something like that but again...it's his call.

Nobody said it wasnt. I love Dragon Ball, it just has some elements I dont like, but I absolutely love it.

[Teddy_Beer]

Back on Goku, I think people are TOO prima carta or whatever on the manga. I know Toriyama's vision was what created Dragon Ball, but he's not perfect and NO he isnt right all the time. We are allowed to dislike any decision of his we dont agree with.

He's not perfect and you're certainly welcome to disagree with some plot points or character traits, but at the end of the day, it's still his story. If he wanted to do something ridiculous like give Piccolo six antennas and 12 arms or suddenly center the story around Oolong and Puar, it's his call.

Of course, I would have stopped reading if he did something like that but again...it's his call.

Nobody said it wasnt. I love Dragon Ball, it just has some elements I dont like, but I absolutely love it.

No problem then.

Once again, I apologize for derailing this thread hahaha

[AliTheZombie13]

It's Toriyama's story, he's allowed to write however he wants it, and I'm allowed to call it bad when I think what I'm reading is bad, just like people are free to disagree with me when I say "I think how he's done this is bad." At the end of the day, we're just discussing a story, a work of fiction.