Almost the entirety of the new era of Dragon Ball is Fanfiction, but done by Toriyama

[tonysoprano300]

Fan fiction can be better than commercial art, so I really would not compare the two here. Dragon Ball suffers from being primarily thrusted by Toriyama and his limited views on storytelling combined with the limited views of a producer's desire to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Other creators (anime directors and writers) aren't given enough influence and freedom to push these projects outside of these boundaries, hence the limited nature.

There is good fan fiction for sure, I think when people use it in this way its about how the story is being written in a way that feels like its operating in service to a character rather than the other way around. Personally I think “Fan Service” would be a more appropriate term.

For example the anime depiction of the Goku Black arc contained a bunch of fan service, Trunk’s finally standing up to Zamasu wasn’t a result of some meticulously crafted development arc that forced him to go through external or internal development, it was more so Trunk’s getting a power up because fans love that character and want to see him whoop someone’s ass. Or at least thats how it comes across.

The Vegeta rage boost against Beerus and Goku’s rage boost against Zamasu are much the same, events that don’t really make sense diagetically but are included because they know fans want to see it.

[JulieYBM]

Fan fiction can be better than commercial art, so I really would not compare the two here. Dragon Ball suffers from being primarily thrusted by Toriyama and his limited views on storytelling combined with the limited views of a producer's desire to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Other creators (anime directors and writers) aren't given enough influence and freedom to push these projects outside of these boundaries, hence the limited nature.

There is good fan fiction for sure, I think when people use it in this way its about how the story is being written in a way that feels like its operating in service to a character rather than the other way around. Personally I think “Fan Service” would be a more appropriate term.

For example the anime depiction of the Goku Black arc contained a bunch of fan service, Trunk’s finally standing up to Zamasu wasn’t a result of some meticulously crafted development arc that forced him to go through external or internal development, it was more so Trunk’s getting a power up because fans love that character and want to see him whoop someone’s ass. Or at least thats how it comes across.

The Vegeta rage boost against Beerus and Goku’s rage boost against Zamasu are much the same, events that don’t really make sense diagetically but are included because they know fans want to see it.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think that sort of puts forth the question of whether or not one is telling a good story and doing so well. I think the Future Trunks arc has a lot of fun elements, but it needed to be more focused on Trunks' arc, and what that arc reflects back onto the viewer. It's like viewing the outline of a good story arc, rather than really adding in the flesh. Trunks' Genki Sword thing was a really cool moment, but it needed better leg-work done first. I think Dragon Ball has an unfortunate habit of limiting itself in that regard, because to follow Toriyama's decrees and needing to appeal to a producer's desire for one thing or another, you're not going to get a ton of time for your characters to have much relatable development that the audience can identify with.

Trunks suffered, then Trunks endured" isn't really a full picture I think the story and the production staff were all let down by a confluence of elements.

[SupremeKai25]

This argument is disingenuous when we know the majority of the ideas were suggestions to Toriyama and many were based on a character's popularity. Acknowledging an author is past their prime isn't criticism because it applies to almost every artist in existence. He's still burned out since he was only contributing some character designs, plot outlines, and writing a script for a movie every few years for a midquel.

Since I am not interested in baseless speculation on how Toriyama felt, I won't continue this digression.

It's odd to accuse people of using umbrella terms when all you're doing is saying these ideas in Super are "complex", "subversive", and "great" without explaining why.

I literally did in that same post. Let's not kid ourselves, the vast majority of Evil Goku and Super Saiyan White fanfics are just that. Evil Goku and Super Saiyan White, with nothing deeper. Super's take on these concepts is much more complex and original. While Super's Evil Goku is still an Evil Goku look-alike, he is originaly due to being a Supreme Kai gone rogue who utilizes an elegant swordsmanship-based skill-set. While Ultra Instinct has white hair, not only it is not spiky like all the SSW fanfics, it is also technically not a Super Saiyan form at all, but a technique based on reflex and heart.

Maybe you should explain how Super's concepts are worse than fanfiction.

The funny thing there was fanfic about an evil Kaioshin or God stealing Goku's body.

Never heard of that.

I want to ask you guys something. I am happy by the discussion this thread fostered, but I wonder if I should rename it to make a point I wanted to make with it clearer:

It's less that its fanfiction
And more that


The later years of Dragon Ball were made by Toriyama as an outsider, not as an insider like his earlier work
[/i

Sure Toriyama's super has a more unique, appealing and diffent voice... But is he just an outsider like his fanbase is now?

]Do you think I could rename the thread?

How is Super any different from the Cell saga?

Toriyama in the Cell saga was relying heavily on editorial input, as shown by the changing villains. That's no different than Toriyama taking inspiration from the Dragon Room (for concepts like Evil Goku) to create his new characters.

There is literally no difference.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I want to ask you guys something. I am happy by the discussion this thread fostered, but I wonder if I should rename it to make a point I wanted to make with it clearer:

It's less that its fanfiction
And more that


The later years of Dragon Ball were made by Toriyama as an outsider, not as an insider like his earlier work
[/i

Sure Toriyama's super has a more unique, appealing and diffent voice... But is he just an outsider like his fanbase is now?

]Do you think I could rename the thread?

As I've said given what we know about Watanabe's Battle of Gods, constant bringing back popular antagonists (Freeza, Broly, fake Cell), ideas coming from the editorial room, its unlikely Toriyama wanted to write Super independent of corporate mandate. So yes these stories could be viewed as something Toriyama wrote from an outsider's perspective.

Let's look at Toriyama's comments when Broly was revealed as the antagonist for the first Super movie:

Spoiler:

Akira Toriyama wrote:

Everyone, are you familiar with Broly? He's an incredibly strong Saiyan who only appeared in the old anime movies, and I apparently at least drew the designs for him, but I had practically no involvement with the anime at the time, so I had totally forgotten about the story content.

So, about Broly. I hear these days, he's still very popular not only in Japan, but also overseas. Based on that, my editor suggested we have Broly appear in this next movie. I went ahead and watched the movies from back then, and I felt this could be quite interesting once I got right to work trying my hand at a story that incorporates him into the Dragon Ball Super series. While keeping in mind Broly's classic image so fondly in the more fascinating Broly.

Naturally you'll get to see fierce combat, but also, the encounter between Goku, Vegeta and Broly. It also involves the Frieza Force and the history of the Saiyans, which end up having a major connection to everything. The story content turns out to be very large scale and dramatic.

Here comes that almighty Saiyan, Broly! I'm also including lots of other content all you fans will enjoy, so look forward to it, and be patient a while longer for it all to come together!

So the man himself was admitting he was aware of Broly's popularity and writing a story about the character was an idea he accepted from someone else.

A lot of modern Dragon Ball is basically that, reworking other people's ideas, bringing back fan-favourite characters, being influenced by word-of-mouth and editor's suggestions.

I can see why people would think Toriyama wrote these stories from an outsider's perspective with an awareness of fandom trends and what sells.

This is all not inherently bad. I agree Toriyama did a wonderful job taking generic fanfic ideas like "evil Goku" as well as another Broly movie and turning them into interesting ideas. I just don't think they're stories he would have likely come up with on his own.

[Cure Dragon 255]

This argument is disingenuous when we know the majority of the ideas were suggestions to Toriyama and many were based on a character's popularity. Acknowledging an author is past their prime isn't criticism because it applies to almost every artist in existence. He's still burned out since he was only contributing some character designs, plot outlines, and writing a script for a movie every few years for a midquel.

Since I am not interested in baseless speculation on how Toriyama felt, I won't continue this digression.

It's odd to accuse people of using umbrella terms when all you're doing is saying these ideas in Super are "complex", "subversive", and "great" without explaining why.

I literally did in that same post. Let's not kid ourselves, the vast majority of Evil Goku and Super Saiyan White fanfics are just that. Evil Goku and Super Saiyan White, with nothing deeper. Super's take on these concepts is much more complex and original. While Super's Evil Goku is still an Evil Goku look-alike, he is originaly due to being a Supreme Kai gone rogue who utilizes an elegant swordsmanship-based skill-set. While Ultra Instinct has white hair, not only it is not spiky like all the SSW fanfics, it is also technically not a Super Saiyan form at all, but a technique based on reflex and heart.

Maybe you should explain how Super's concepts are worse than fanfiction.

The funny thing there was fanfic about an evil Kaioshin or God stealing Goku's body.

Never heard of that.

I want to ask you guys something. I am happy by the discussion this thread fostered, but I wonder if I should rename it to make a point I wanted to make with it clearer:

It's less that its fanfiction
And more that


The later years of Dragon Ball were made by Toriyama as an outsider, not as an insider like his earlier work
[/i

Sure Toriyama's super has a more unique, appealing and diffent voice... But is he just an outsider like his fanbase is now?

]Do you think I could rename the thread?

How is Super any different from the Cell saga?

Toriyama in the Cell saga was relying heavily on editorial input, as shown by the changing villains. That's no different than Toriyama taking inspiration from the Dragon Room (for concepts like Evil Goku) to create his new characters.

There is literally no difference.

Look I didnt mean badly, in fact you said it yourself! If this was the old run, I dont think Toriyama could have done Goku Black in the original run. What I meant to ask is if "Toriyama is writing as an outsider to his own story." By your own admission, the original run was shoddy and full of "Lets extend this crap" bad writing and contrivances. And no I dont mean "Toriyama wanted to end at Freeza" but that at that point Toriyama really struggled to continue in spite of his own desire to do so.

[SupremeKai25]

Look I didnt mean badly, in fact you said it yourself! If this was the old run, I dont think Toriyama could have done Goku Black in the original run. What I meant to ask is if "Toriyama is writing as an outsider to his own story." By your own admission, the original run was shoddy and full of "Lets extend this crap" bad writing and contrivances. And no I dont mean "Toriyama wanted to end at Freeza" but that at that point Toriyama really struggled to continue in spite of his own desire to do so.

If by "writing as an outsider" you mean "taking inspiration from the Dragon Room for the barebones idea, then doing 99.9% of the work from there to create something new", then Yeah, he was "writing as an outsider" in Modern DB.

Which is no different from the Cell saga. Toriyama was writing the Cell saga as an outsider, as proven by the changing villains because the editors were not satisfied by the designs of the Androids.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Look I didnt mean badly, in fact you said it yourself! If this was the old run, I dont think Toriyama could have done Goku Black in the original run. What I meant to ask is if "Toriyama is writing as an outsider to his own story." By your own admission, the original run was shoddy and full of "Lets extend this crap" bad writing and contrivances. And no I dont mean "Toriyama wanted to end at Freeza" but that at that point Toriyama really struggled to continue in spite of his own desire to do so.

If by "writing as an outsider" you mean "taking inspiration from the Dragon Room for the barebones idea, then doing 99.9% of the work from there to create something new", then Yeah, he was "writing as an outsider" in Modern DB.

Which is no different from the Cell saga. Toriyama was writing the Cell saga as an outsider, as proven by the changing villains because the editors were not satisfied by the designs of the Androids.

Ah but you see, he was an insider in the Cell Saga, he was a tired, desperate mangaka trying to keep his manga going. Ok he wasnt but he was under a lot of stress and he needed to fill the pages, that much is true.

Again, you and some other people are missing the point. Being an outsider is not "TORIYAMA WRITES STORIES THAT SUCK ASS AND HAVE A BIG BUTT" and insider doesnt mean "FUCK YEAH KICK ASS." But rather that Toriyama wrote this later on, divorced from the context he was in at the time.

You can even say "I prefer Super BECAUSE its obvious to anyone that this is a well written story written with the gift of hindsight and experience and not needing to write a weekly 19 page manga" I DONT feel that way btw, but I need you to understand what I am saying.

[AliTheZombie13]

It's less that its fanfiction
And more that

The later years of Dragon Ball were made by Toriyama as an outsider, not as an insider like his earlier work.
Sure Toriyama's super has a more unique, appealing and diffent voice... But is he just an outsider like his fanbase is now?

I wouldn't say he's an outsider to the fanbase, he came back specifically because he was displeased with Toei and DBE.
That being said, these past stories where he's just giving bullet points rather than writing the story himself felt like... How can I describe this?

It felt like the Z movies being adapted into a TV show, much like Garlic Jr. on overdrive. Take something simple like the BoG and RoF movies, they were extended much longer beyond what was reasonable and the result were boring, extremely padded stories where little happens other than fighting, fighting, fighting and more fighting. And most of the time, the fighting was frustrating to watch, because you'd spend 3 episodes with the characters just fooling around, only for them to end with, "Okay, I'm done playing, now I'm fighting FOR REAL!!!" It's like I'm watching Toei adapt Freeza all over again.

It doesn't help that the stories themselves feel like the Z movies: Bad guy shows up, little to no story, the Son family is doing something, bad guy attacks, recreate famous moments from the show, TRANSFORMATION HYPE OMG!!!!, bad guy is defeated, nothing changed, nothing happened, forget about it and move on. The only stories from modern material I felt were at least trying to tell a story and not just spam me with battle hype fanservice were Goku Black and Super Hero, and even Goku Black has a lot of problems that kill my enjoyment of it.

Bottom line is: Modern Dragon Ball is like the modern version of the Z movies. A lot of pointless fanservice and little of value to be found. They can be good, but being good is sadly the exception, not the rule. And no, the fact that, "But Toriyama is writing it!" doesn't excuse any of it, I'm sorry. Given that RoF was entirely his idea, I really don't care. His stories don't interest me.

[tonysoprano300]

Fan fiction can be better than commercial art, so I really would not compare the two here. Dragon Ball suffers from being primarily thrusted by Toriyama and his limited views on storytelling combined with the limited views of a producer's desire to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Other creators (anime directors and writers) aren't given enough influence and freedom to push these projects outside of these boundaries, hence the limited nature.

There is good fan fiction for sure, I think when people use it in this way its about how the story is being written in a way that feels like its operating in service to a character rather than the other way around. Personally I think “Fan Service” would be a more appropriate term.

For example the anime depiction of the Goku Black arc contained a bunch of fan service, Trunk’s finally standing up to Zamasu wasn’t a result of some meticulously crafted development arc that forced him to go through external or internal development, it was more so Trunk’s getting a power up because fans love that character and want to see him whoop someone’s ass. Or at least thats how it comes across.

The Vegeta rage boost against Beerus and Goku’s rage boost against Zamasu are much the same, events that don’t really make sense diagetically but are included because they know fans want to see it.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think that sort of puts forth the question of whether or not one is telling a good story and doing so well. I think the Future Trunks arc has a lot of fun elements, but it needed to be more focused on Trunks' arc, and what that arc reflects back onto the viewer. It's like viewing the outline of a good story arc, rather than really adding in the flesh. Trunks' Genki Sword thing was a really cool moment, but it needed better leg-work done first. I think Dragon Ball has an unfortunate habit of limiting itself in that regard, because to follow Toriyama's decrees and needing to appeal to a producer's desire for one thing or another, you're not going to get a ton of time for your characters to have much relatable development that the audience can identify with.

Trunks suffered, then Trunks endured" isn't really a full picture I think the story and the production staff were all let down by a confluence of elements.

It probably feels like an outline because that’s essentially what it is, if I'm not mistaken Toriyama gave bullet points and other people would write the stuff around it then submit it back to him for approval.

Which I think does lead to a very different product compared to Toriyama writing it himself from scratch even if he is having to take cues from editors and what not. Moro arc was the first time Toyataru kind of did his own thing and id say it felt way more fleshed out compared to the other arcs.

[SupremeKai25]

Look I didnt mean badly, in fact you said it yourself! If this was the old run, I dont think Toriyama could have done Goku Black in the original run. What I meant to ask is if "Toriyama is writing as an outsider to his own story." By your own admission, the original run was shoddy and full of "Lets extend this crap" bad writing and contrivances. And no I dont mean "Toriyama wanted to end at Freeza" but that at that point Toriyama really struggled to continue in spite of his own desire to do so.

If by "writing as an outsider" you mean "taking inspiration from the Dragon Room for the barebones idea, then doing 99.9% of the work from there to create something new", then Yeah, he was "writing as an outsider" in Modern DB.

Which is no different from the Cell saga. Toriyama was writing the Cell saga as an outsider, as proven by the changing villains because the editors were not satisfied by the designs of the Androids.

Ah but you see, he was an insider in the Cell Saga, he was a tired, desperate mangaka trying to keep his manga going. Ok he wasnt but he was under a lot of stress and he needed to fill the pages, that much is true.

Again, you and some other people are missing the point. Being an outsider is not "TORIYAMA WRITES STORIES THAT SUCK ASS AND HAVE A BIG BUTT" and insider doesnt mean "FUCK YEAH KICK ASS." But rather that Toriyama wrote this later on, divorced from the context he was in at the time.

You can even say "I prefer Super BECAUSE its obvious to anyone that this is a well written story written with the gift of hindsight and experience and not needing to write a weekly 19 page manga" I DONT feel that way btw, but I need you to understand what I am saying.

I never disagreed with any of this. I've said many times in the past that Super is much better-planned and paced than DBZ, that Modern Toriyama planned his stories much better and took his time. Hence why Goku is still fodder to Lord Beerus after over 11 years, because Super is actually taking its time to flesh-out its story before ending it.

For instance, you know how the Android saga shifted its main villains thrice? There's none of that nonsense in Super.

I still don't see the point of calling Super "fan-fiction" and Toriyama "an outsider" just because he planned his modern stories better and wasn't in such a rush anymore. It's obvious that he remained the ultimate authority in the franchise, as proven for example when he completely changed BoG because he didn't like what Toei wrote. The Toei-led Anime and Toyotaro-led Manga obviously have Toriyama's stamp of approval.

Also, "fan-fiction" is objectively the wrong term to use here. Super is not fan-fiction. By definition, fan-fiction is not considered an official source, which obviously isn't the case with Super.

[AliTheZombie13]

I feel like I deviated too much from the topic in my original answer, sorry about that ^^'
Well, something I forgot to mention was, the fact that Toriyama wasn't coming up with any of this, he was just approving whatever Toei/Toyotaro spat out at him, I have to question...

How does this make any difference from the Z Movies/GT/Filler?
If I recall, Toriyama was also involved in approving of GT/The Z Movies and creating character designs for them, aside from giving small ideas for filler material. Isn't that exactly what was happening with the revival era? It's essentially glorified filler.

[SupremeKai25]

Well, something I forgot to mention was, the fact that Toriyama wasn't coming up with any of this, he was just approving whatever Toei/Toyotaro spat out at him, I have to question...

Huh? Toriyama created all the bullet points of the Super storylines. All Toei and Toyotaro did was flesh-out the overall storyline starting from Toryiama's bullet points.

For instance: Toriyama created the character of Goku Black. He came up with the backstory of a rogue Supreme Kai who hates mortals and takes the body of Goku to destroy them. Toei then fleshed-out the overall narrative by giving Goku Black that unique fighting style that combines ki blades with elegance/finesse. Toyotaro convinced Toriyama to involve Vegito. It doesn't change the fact that the basic premise of the arc were all penned by Toriyama.

Also, all the major plot points are penned by Toriyama, you can spot them because they happen in both anime and manga. Stuff like Fused Zamasu's body being destroyed, Zamasu's immortality becoming too much to handle, and Zeno getting involved. Or 17 winning the tournament and everyone being wished back. The basic storyline is Toriyama's.

How does this make any difference from the Z Movies/GT/Filler?
If I recall, Toriyama was also involved in approving of GT/The Z Movies and creating character designs for them, aside from giving small ideas for filler material. Isn't that exactly what was happening with the revival era? It's essentially glorified filler.

Did Toriyama come up with the basic plot of those old things? No? Then it's not comparable.

Toriyama came up with the basic plot of all the Super arcs.

[AliTheZombie13]

As far as I'm aware:
BoG wasn't his movie, he was sent the script to approve, didn't like it, and decided to change it.
RoF was his idea.
Goku Black wasn't his idea, he was created because Toei told him to do something with Future Trunks, for no other reason than because FT was popular and would bring in more toy sales. Same thing happened with Broly.
U6 and ToP were probably his ideas.
The manga-exclusive arcs were all Toyotaro.
Super Hero only had Gohan's involvement because of editorial push, and he even forgot the movie was called "Dragon Ball Super."

A lot of this screams to me as "Hey! Toriyama! Give us ideas for us to milk Dragon Ball!"
He said "OK!", got his paycheck, and moved on.

So far, I'm interested in how Daima will play out, considering Toriyama said it's the one project he's been most involved and most excited about... and that makes me question how involved and how excited he was with Super in general.

[tonysoprano300]

It's less that its fanfiction
And more that

The later years of Dragon Ball were made by Toriyama as an outsider, not as an insider like his earlier work.
Sure Toriyama's super has a more unique, appealing and diffent voice... But is he just an outsider like his fanbase is now?

I wouldn't say he's an outsider to the fanbase, he came back specifically because he was displeased with Toei and DBE.
That being said, these past stories where he's just giving bullet points rather than writing the story himself felt like... How can I describe this?

It felt like the Z movies being adapted into a TV show, much like Garlic Jr. on overdrive. Take something simple like the BoG and RoF movies, they were extended much longer beyond what was reasonable and the result were boring, extremely padded stories where little happens other than fighting, fighting, fighting and more fighting. And most of the time, the fighting was frustrating to watch, because you'd spend 3 episodes with the characters just fooling around, only for them to end with, "Okay, I'm done playing, now I'm fighting FOR REAL!!!" It's like I'm watching Toei adapt Freeza all over again.

It doesn't help that the stories themselves feel like the Z movies: Bad guy shows up, little to no story, the Son family is doing something, bad guy attacks, recreate famous moments from the show, TRANSFORMATION HYPE OMG!!!!, bad guy is defeated, nothing changed, nothing happened, forget about it and move on. The only stories from modern material I felt were at least trying to tell a story and not just spam me with battle hype fanservice were Goku Black and Super Hero, and even Goku Black has a lot of problems that kill my enjoyment of it.

Bottom line is: Modern Dragon Ball is like the modern version of the Z movies. A lot of pointless fanservice and little of value to be found. They can be good, but being good is sadly the exception, not the rule. And no, the fact that, "But Toriyama is writing it!" doesn't excuse any of it, I'm sorry. Given that RoF was entirely his idea, I really don't care. His stories don't interest me.

Essentially.


I feel like If the saiyan arc was written in this same style, it would start with Goku getting a message from Kami that the saiyans are coming so then Kami teleports him to King Kais planet then the saiyans arrive and everyone takes turns fighting until Goku ultimately defeats Vegeta at the cost of losing half of his friends.

Cut out Snake Way, cut out Yemma, cut out Gokus sacrifice against Radditz, cut out Gohan and Piccolo’s training and relationship, and even cut out Nappas onslaught, Piccolo’s sacrifice etc.

It would just be the set up for the fight and the fight itself, a lot of the meat that actually makes you deeply invested in the way a story unfolds wouldn’t be there

[Rafa Fast]

Well, technically Toyotaro started as a fan who was just writing and drawing his own fan manga, so by that perspective, it makes sense, he's just doing it professionally now, with demands and etc. Still, what he, Toei's staff, Shueisha has been doing is simply extending the universe created by Toriyama, adding more characters and stories (sometimes changing them too), and that happens to any kind of series, and fans also do that, just in a completely different world. Having Toriyama's involvement can be interpreted by many in different ways, the most discussed ones are about his stories being part of the canon and how much of Super he did.

And now that's a discussion that will be put to rest from now on, we're all aware that Tori was 90% involved in Daima, so after that show ends, we can already expect that a huge part of the fanbase will consider everything post Daima/Superhero some sort of parallel story that came out from the minds of Toyotoeisha.

Now, this may sound like a crazy theory, but I think it's very curious that after GT, for 10 years the only anime/manga DB series with absolute 0 involvement from Toriyama was Heroes, and coincidentally, right after the Eternal Toriless era of the franchise has pre-started, they decided to end Heroes, why? This tells me that Shueisha and the team behind the Heroes stories and concepts would've liked to have their ideias in the main Dragon Ball anime/manga stories, but given how Toriyama possible didn't like anything from Heroes, they had to make a separate series for it.
No, I'm not making a crazy conspiracy theory about Shueisha being evil and waiting for Toriyama to pass away, no, I'm just saying what seems very logical to me, Heroes is no more necessary if Shueisha really wanted to use that series' concepts and characters in the main series, that could explain why the trailer for Super Divers looked so generic, with no sign of original characters, stories and concepts like Heroes had, because they won't use those ideas in a separate production anymore.

Let's wait, if that would be going against what Toriyama wanted for the manga, it's a different story, a lot of people will say that Shueisha isn't respecting Toriyama's legacy and etc, and maybe Tori was actually already happy enough with what he did with Super. For that reason I think Shueisha should've ended the Super manga, so everything post chapter 103 is a new manga made solely by Toyotaro and the Shueisha & V-jump staff.

What I would really like to learn more about is Capsule Corporation Tokyo, we haven't heard anything from them since that article saying that it was founded, it feels like it doesn't even exist (it wasn't mentioned in anything official from DB so far) but its role in the franchise must be very important, they're supposedly now in charge of everything Dragon Ball except for the manga, with that still belonging to Shueisha, that means that there is a possibility for Animated Dragon Ball and Comic Dragon Ball to take completely different routes.

In time we'll see.

[Skar]

I don't hate Super, I'm glad it exists and we got a couple more ideas from Toriyama, they just weren't as creative as everything in the original run (other than Cell).

I also don't hate Super and enjoyed seeing Toriyama involved in the series again. I still look forward to watching Sandland and Daima. I also hope if they continue the series it's attempting original ideas and not a focus on fan service. We don't have to bring up fanfiction since it's a common issue in most sequels or revivals. Without Toriyama being involved then I feel there wouldn't be much to differentiate it from any studio trying the same thing with a legacy franchise.

Since I am not interested in baseless speculation on how Toriyama felt, I won't continue this digression.

I'm not sure what part of that is baseless because it seems like what you've been saying contradicts what we've heard in interviews. They've talked about giving Toriyama suggestions based on fan service and the barebones outlines that they had to fill in. He also chose for the series to be a midquel which is usually a way to add more stories without affecting the status quo compared to a sequel.

I literally did in that same post. Let's not kid ourselves, the vast majority of Evil Goku and Super Saiyan White fanfics are just that. Evil Goku and Super Saiyan White, with nothing deeper. Super's take on these concepts is much more complex and original. While Super's Evil Goku is still an Evil Goku look-alike, he is originaly due to being a Supreme Kai gone rogue who utilizes an elegant swordsmanship-based skill-set. While Ultra Instinct has white hair, not only it is not spiky like all the SSW fanfics, it is also technically not a Super Saiyan form at all, but a technique based on reflex and heart.

Maybe you should explain how Super's concepts are worse than fanfiction.

I wasn't talking about UI since it was meant to be more of a technique so I thought it made sense to look closer to his base form. An evil version of the main protagonist is a common idea so nothing wrong with liking it used here. I didn't think he was complex and it seemed the bare minimum of what has been done with that trope in other professional shonen or video games.

I was referring to your argument for actual recolor form since exists that argument exists exclusively for the one used in Super. All you did was try to argue some of the original forms were lazy which isn't attempting to explain what makes the form a worthwhile addition and only an excuse. The only time you hear the argument "something similarly lazy/bad/uncreative was done before so it's okay to have more of it" for any fictional work is when someone there's literally nothing else to say which is why even amateur writers would be embarassed to use it for their own work. I guarantee you would never hear this argument for any acclaimed sequel or series because they're considered good based on their own merits so there's no need for that excuse. The same applies to Super because the good ideas don't require this approach either. All the times I've heard this argument for Super has been for certain ideas that have been criticized before outside of Super.

[Kaywayk]

I think the biggest thing that makes Super seem "fanfiction"-y to me is not the recolor transformations or plot concepts but the characterization of Goku and Co. A lot of the time it feels like the writers are writing the meme version of the characters instead of what they actually were like in the original manga. Stuff like Goku openly disregard his kids, Vegeta being super into hardwork, everyone treating the humans like total losers, etc...
Add to that the constant self-reference and bringing back of old elements and it just doesn't feel like a natural progression of the story told in Z.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

For what it's worth Toriyama himself was pissed off by Super, so much so that basic outlines for the Future Trunks arc were written and given out to convince him to come back. That was after reworking an existing story, bringing back a popular villain and a somewhat different tournament arc.

That is much different than how it was for the Cell arc where Toriyama where he had been in a routine for many years letting his imagination run wild and creativity started to dry up due to fatigue. It wasn't a gradual return and picking up where other people started.

While I find the Android and Cell arcs overrated there are plenty of story threads there that make it feel like a natural continuation of where the Freeza arc left off. Vegeta trains and proves to himself he could become a Super Saiyan, like Goku. Goku makes up for lost time with his son. The Red Ribbon Army's scientist was plotting behind the scenes and his creation becomes a worthy successor to Freeza, justifying being more powerful. Considering Toriyama's circumstances and having a young family at the time it's impressive how well that arc turned out. Was Super Saiyan 2 lazy? Sure, but it's a minor part of that arc and isn't trying to be the second coming of Super Saiyan, it's just... kinda there.

[SupremeKai25]

For what it's worth Toriyama himself was pissed off by Super, so much so that basic outlines for the Future Trunks arc were written and given out to convince him to come back. That was after reworking an existing story, bringing back a popular villain and a somewhat different tournament arc.

That is much different than how it was for the Cell arc where Toriyama where he had been in a routine for many years letting his imagination run wild and creativity started to dry up due to fatigue. It wasn't a gradual return and picking up where other people started.

While I find the Android and Cell arcs overrated there are plenty of story threads there that make it feel like a natural continuation of where the Freeza arc left off. Vegeta trains and proves to himself he could become a Super Saiyan, like Goku. Goku makes up for lost time with his son. The Red Ribbon Army's scientist was plotting behind the scenes and his creation becomes a worthy successor to Freeza, justifying being more powerful. Considering Toriyama's circumstances and having a young family at the time it's impressive how well that arc turned out. Was Super Saiyan 2 lazy? Sure, but it's a minor part of that arc and isn't trying to be the second coming of Super Saiyan, it's just... kinda there.

And what can you tell Me about the Majin Buu arc? Does it feel like a "natural continuation" of the Cell saga, where Goku died and Gohan became the new hero, and Super Saiyan "Rage" (it wasn't called 2 at the time) was the maximum peak of power?

By the way, you are comparing two arcs within the same series, to two different series entirely. That's a fales equivalency. Super is not an arc within DBZ, and is not meant to be a sequel to DBZ either. It's meant to flesh-out the looooong 10-year-gap between Buu's death and the new Budokai tournament. It's always been presented as a fresh new start, which BoG achieved flawlessly.

Even so, I would say that the Future Trunks saga feels like a natural sequel to the Android saga, Yes. You have Future Trunks coming back with a dark message from the future, you have a time-travelling villain who stole Goku's power (Zamasu/Cell), you have a Saiyan half-hybrid achieving an unprecedented rage form, and you have a sort of bittersweet ending. You even have a flashback to the Cell saga, since Zamasu was able to put his plan in motion partly because time was split in the Cell saga, resulting in two parallel Zamasus teaming up years later.

[MasenkoHA]

For what it's worth Toriyama himself was pissed off by Super, so much so that basic outlines for the Future Trunks arc were written and given out to convince him to come back. That was after reworking an existing story, bringing back a popular villain and a somewhat different tournament arc.

That is much different than how it was for the Cell arc where Toriyama where he had been in a routine for many years letting his imagination run wild and creativity started to dry up due to fatigue. It wasn't a gradual return and picking up where other people started.

While I find the Android and Cell arcs overrated there are plenty of story threads there that make it feel like a natural continuation of where the Freeza arc left off. Vegeta trains and proves to himself he could become a Super Saiyan, like Goku. Goku makes up for lost time with his son. The Red Ribbon Army's scientist was plotting behind the scenes and his creation becomes a worthy successor to Freeza, justifying being more powerful. Considering Toriyama's circumstances and having a young family at the time it's impressive how well that arc turned out. Was Super Saiyan 2 lazy? Sure, but it's a minor part of that arc and isn't trying to be the second coming of Super Saiyan, it's just... kinda there.

And what can you tell Me about the Majin Buu arc? Does it feel like a "natural continuation" of the Cell saga, where Goku died and Gohan became the new hero, and Super Saiyan "Rage" (it wasn't called 2 at the time) was the maximum peak of power?

It starts out following Gohan as the new protagonist,shows where the characters are after 7 years of peace and follows up on Mr.Satan being world famous for "killing" Cell and even introduces his daughter.


So yes, yes it does. And if you're trying to argue it doesn't then the same applies to your precious Zamasu arc as a follow up to the Champa arc