Was Goku screaming at Gohan to kill Cell out of character?

[Lukmendes]

You mean the movie that concluded with Goku killing Frieza?

He only did that after being reminded that Freeza is space Satan, and needed Whis to tell him "Hey, kill space Satan".

Monkey King's point is that Goku should've known better than that.

Anyways, Goku telling Gohan to kill Cell can be seen as him learning his lesson and that creatures like him have to be killed, and Goku did try to kill him with that Kamehameha that blew up Cell's torso. A more cynical view of it could be just Goku having a "Do as I say, not as I do" moment.

[AliTheZombie13]

If Whis wasn't there and/or he didn't conveniently have the ability to rewind time 3 minutes, everyone would be dead because of Goku's stupid in RoF. It also nullifies the notion that Goku developed as a character in Z and told Gohan to kill Cell because he learned his mistake with Freeza. If he really did, he wouldn't be doing the exact same mistake in RoF. That's the point.

[SupremeKai25]

You mean the movie that concluded with Goku killing Frieza?

He only did that after being reminded that Freeza is space Satan, and needed Whis to tell him "Hey, kill space Satan".

Monkey King's point is that Goku should've known better than that.

Anyways, Goku telling Gohan to kill Cell can be seen as him learning his lesson and that creatures like him have to be killed, and Goku did try to kill him with that Kamehameha that blew up Cell's torso. A more cynical view of it could be just Goku having a "Do as I say, not as I do" moment.

And he knew better than that. He proceeded to rectify his mistake by killing Frieza. Are characters not allowed to have brief lapses of judgement? Must they be perfect?

If Whis wasn't there and/or he didn't conveniently have the ability to rewind time 3 minutes, everyone would be dead because of Goku's stupid in RoF. It also nullifies the notion that Goku developed as a character in Z and told Gohan to kill Cell because he learned his mistake with Freeza. If he really did, he wouldn't be doing the exact same mistake in RoF. That's the point.

No one would have died. They would have looked for injured Frieza near Earth's debris and finished him off, then used another set of Dragon Balls to restore the Earth.

RoF wasn't nearly as apocalyptic as you make it seem.

Also, wouldn't the fault lie with Vegeta? He's the one who took ages to kill Frieza. Goku was recovering by that point.

[Koitsukai]

And that's what makes RoF the shittiest DB movie ever, only surpassed in shittiness by DBE.

The only way to explain Goku's motivation to spare Freeza (and de-power!) is to assume he believes Freeza has some new-found respect for martial arts after training for the first time in his life. Like death and training somehow reset him.
But I don't even buy that myself.
Toriyama said he re-read the manga before BoG, I guess he forgot everything by the time he wrote RoF.

[MasenkoHA]

It also nullifies the notion that Goku developed as a character in Z and told Gohan to kill Cell because he learned his mistake with Freeza. If he really did, he wouldn't be doing the exact same mistake in RoF. That's the point.

A movie that came out 20 years after the manga ended doesn't really nullify the notion that Goku developed as a character in Z.

At most it's an argument in favor of fans who argued Goku has been mishandled in modern material

[AliTheZombie13]

A movie that came out 20 years after the manga ended doesn't really nullify the notion that Goku developed as a character in Z.
At most it's an argument in favor of fans who argued Goku has been mishandled in modern material

What I was trying to say with that was:

Either Goku in Super isn't inconsistent with his character from the original manga at all and he's always been like that and the fans got the wrong impression (be it because of the dub, the Toei adaptation, or just misreading the manga in general), and the scene where he yells at Gohan to kill Cell already in the original is a case of character inconsistency;

Or Goku in Super has indeed regressed, proving that even Toriyama is mishandling his own character in modern material.

[Majin Buu]

I know Goku said that "you'l be the earth's new protector" bit to Oob but it was such a throwaway line, I don't know why Toriyama even bothered.

It seemed obvious Goku just wanted to fight Oob and the earth having a new protector was an afterthough. It's not like the planet was in any present danger when Goku whisked Oob away to train.

Considering Toriyama has Goku outright tell Uub his true purpose in training him is that he wants to fight him, I don't see how it could get any more obvious that "training the next protector of Earth" is just lip service on his part.

[MasenkoHA]

I know Goku said that "you'l be the earth's new protector" bit to Oob but it was such a throwaway line, I don't know why Toriyama even bothered.

It seemed obvious Goku just wanted to fight Oob and the earth having a new protector was an afterthough. It's not like the planet was in any present danger when Goku whisked Oob away to train.

Considering Toriyama has Goku outright tell Uub his true purpose in training him is that he wants to fight him, I don't see how it could get any more obvious that "training the next protector of Earth" is just lip service on his part.

]Right. It's why I'm unbothered by Oob's reduced role in GT. They fought. Goku got what he wanted. He moved on.

And he consistently cleaned up his own mess in GT. (Which could be argued is a product of being pure Toei Goku)

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

About Oob becoming Goku's successor, it was established that humans have limited potential with characters like Piccolo, Tien/Tenshinhan etc being left in Goku, Gohan, Goten, Vegeta and Trunks' dust once they attained Super Saiyan.

I guess you could say Goku had more faith in Oob because he was the reincarnation of Kid Boo but it still seems like a stretch.

I don't know whether Toriyama himself would have thought much about what happened after his manga, as of now it seems like right until the end there was no plans.

Toriyama probably didn't want Goku to grow old or pass the baton on to anyone and ended the manga when he did for that reason. Gohan didn't compete in the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai and Goten and Trunks would have preferred to be off dating girls. I suspect the point of that ending was with Goku as a mentor there will be no foes too strong.

The Kanzenban ending narration was changed from “things will be OK because they have the dragonballs" to “things will be OK because of all the amazing guys on Earth”, implying there can be more than one warrior Goku trains to help in future fights. Oob was just his newest sparring partner.

Toriyama also retroactively added Vegeta saying he would surpass Goku in the Kanzenban ending, so it seems ultimately if there was anything he wanted to foreshadow its that Goku will continue to grow stronger.

[Lukmendes]

And he knew better than that. He proceeded to rectify his mistake by killing Frieza. Are characters not allowed to have brief lapses of judgement? Must they be perfect?

Not perfect, just don't let space Satan escape when he clearly isn't up to any good.

We don't even have anything like Freeza pretending to not be as evil, or even Freeza begging to be saved like in Namek, Freeza was an evil piece of shit, made clear he's still just as much of an evil as a piece of shit, and Goku thought it's okay to spare him, that's just a moronic decision, and I see it as part of Toriyama's character derailment of Goku.

[SupremeKai25]

And he knew better than that. He proceeded to rectify his mistake by killing Frieza. Are characters not allowed to have brief lapses of judgement? Must they be perfect?

Not perfect, just don't let space Satan escape when he clearly isn't up to any good.

We don't even have anything like Freeza pretending to not be as evil, or even Freeza begging to be saved like in Namek, Freeza was an evil piece of shit, made clear he's still just as much of an evil as a piece of shit, and Goku thought it's okay to spare him, that's just a moronic decision, and I see it as part of Toriyama's character derailment of Goku.

Actually, it makes sense in the context of RoF. Goku wanted to give Frieza a chance as a martial artist. The difference between DBZ Frieza and DBS Frieza is that the latter actually put in some training and effort for once, a trait that Goku universally respects.

DBZ Frieza had no value as a fighter, DBS Frieza does, because Nu!Frieza actually tries to put in some work instead of having everything handed to him on a silver platter.

It's simple, Toriyama's Goku isn't a lawful good hero whose primary objective is saving innocent lives. That's the nonsense that was the Cell saga, the most OOC Goku's ever been. Goku is a neutral character whose primary objective is fighting stronger and stronger opponents. He lives for the thrill of the challenge. Of course he'll be intrigued that his arch-nemesis finally trained for once.

That is Toriyama's Goku.

[Lukmendes]

Actually, it makes sense in the context of RoF. Goku wanted to give Frieza a chance as a martial artist. The difference between DBZ Frieza and DBS Frieza is that the latter actually put in some training and effort for once, a trait that Goku universally respects.

DBZ Frieza had no value as a fighter, DBS Frieza does, because Nu!Frieza actually tries to put in some work instead of having everything handed to him on a silver platter.

It's simple, Toriyama's Goku isn't a lawful good hero whose primary objective is saving innocent lives. That's the nonsense that was the Cell saga, the most OOC Goku's ever been. Goku is a neutral character whose primary objective is fighting stronger and stronger opponents. He lives for the thrill of the challenge. Of course he'll be intrigued that his arch-nemesis finally trained for once.

That is Toriyama's Goku.

Goku isn't someone who'd care that much about someone else being a martial artist if he's an evil piece of shit, he outright celebrated when he thought he killed Tao Pai Pai with a bomb, and he had no respect at all for Tien until he started showing honorable traits.

We'll agree to disagree here, since I find RoF Goku to be just another case of Toriyama fucking over Goku's character.

[SupremeKai25]

Actually, it makes sense in the context of RoF. Goku wanted to give Frieza a chance as a martial artist. The difference between DBZ Frieza and DBS Frieza is that the latter actually put in some training and effort for once, a trait that Goku universally respects.

DBZ Frieza had no value as a fighter, DBS Frieza does, because Nu!Frieza actually tries to put in some work instead of having everything handed to him on a silver platter.

It's simple, Toriyama's Goku isn't a lawful good hero whose primary objective is saving innocent lives. That's the nonsense that was the Cell saga, the most OOC Goku's ever been. Goku is a neutral character whose primary objective is fighting stronger and stronger opponents. He lives for the thrill of the challenge. Of course he'll be intrigued that his arch-nemesis finally trained for once.

That is Toriyama's Goku.

Goku isn't someone who'd care that much about someone else being a martial artist if he's an evil piece of shit, he outright celebrated when he thought he killed Tao Pai Pai with a bomb, and he had no respect at all for Tien until he started showing honorable traits.

We'll agree to disagree here, since I find RoF Goku to be just another case of Toriyama fucking over Goku's character.

And yet, he had nothing but respect for Majin Buu, literally the most evil creature in the Universe. Because game recognizes game, and his desire to test his skills and challenge himself to greater heights overshadows whatever sense of "duty" he has towards innocent lives.

You heard his final speech to Majin Buu, an evil monster who genocided the entirety of Humanity. Did Goku ever bring that up? I don't recall. I do recall Goku having many words of respect for Majin Buu (pure evil genocidal monster BTW).

In fact, he loves the thrill of battle so much, that he broke the Potara earring, almost dooming the entire Universe in the process, just to have his good fight against a worthy opponent.

It's not far-fetched at all that Goku would want a rematch with Frieza. His ultimate arch-nemesis finally started putting in some work and effort to grow stronger? Toriyama's Goku will inevitably be excited.

[Dr. Casey]

3. He seems to genuinely hate Cell, perhaps more-so than any other villain outside of Zamasu.

He did? Must be something I'm forgetting, because I thought Cell was the main villain he had the weakest feelings towards. He hated Daimao and Freeza, had plenty of animosity towards Nappa and Vegeta, and was really interested by Buu. Cell I don't remember him having very strong feelings towards either way, minus some occasional generic 'strong fighter good' sentiments (but not exceptionally strong ones, just the same kind of feelings he'd have towards any strong fighter).

He pushes as far as he can, and will push instead for the pragmatic option at the last moment once it's clear that there's no more fun to be had, only death.

I think this sums it up. Goku's reaction was uncharacteristic but I don't think it was out-of-character. Even in real life risk takers and adrenaline junkies have a survival instinct that kicks in if the odds of things going well decline from 50 or 20 or one percent down to zero.

[MasenkoHA]

It's simple, Toriyama's Goku isn't a lawful good hero whose primary objective is saving innocent lives. That's the nonsense that was the Cell saga, the most OOC Goku's ever been. Goku is a neutral character whose primary objective is fighting stronger and stronger opponents. He lives for the thrill of the challenge. Of course he'll be intrigued that his arch-nemesis finally trained for once.

That is Toriyama's Goku.

Toriyama's Goku isn't the one he actually wrote it's the one 20 years later from the version he's only providing basic story outlines for while Toyotaro/The creative staff at Toei take it from there.

Makes sense to me!

Nowhere did the Cell saga portray Goku as " Lawful Good whose primary objective is saving innocent lives". This is a man who still gave a bad guy a senzu so he would have a fair fight against his son.

Goku can be callous and myopic in his desire to fight strong opponents but saying he doesn't value life is ludicrous when the actual story (you know the one Toriyama actually wrote from 1984-1995) shows the exact opposite as seen with the deaths of Bora, Kuririn, Kame Sennin, The Z Warriors, Vegeta, and Kuririn again.

[Kaywayk]

I think its worth looking at this from a more out-of-universe perspective. Goku's "mercy" as a character trait seems to change depending on what Toryama needed at the moment, and is almost always used to highlight the differences between him and the current villain/rival. In the Namek arc, Goku's mercy towards the Ginyu force was meant to show his "enlightenment" compared with Vegeta, who would kill them without a second thought. During the Freeza fight, his cruel mercy (telling Freeza to go off and live the rest of his life in shame) draws a contrast with Freeza's more physical means of torture and also serves to showcase the Super Saiyan transformation's heightened rage. Him giving Freeza his ki shows that he has overcome those negative emotions.

But in the Cell fight, Goku is not being contrasted with Cell but with Gohan. In this instance, Goku's pragmatism opposes Gohan's desire to inflict suffering on Cell. Its Gohan who must overcome his negative emotions to do right thing. Goku is still the "merciful" one, but since Gohan has shifted the spectrum Goku's morals have shifted with it and his mercy becomes pragmatic. So no, I don't think it's out of character for Goku, because he's still advocating for the more "merciful" option. He's still the voice-of-reason.

[Saiya6Cit]

Goku went through something called "character development" during the original manga (something DBS doesn't understand)

After Freeza forced his hand on Namek Goku learnt that some beings are beyond redemption and must be put down for good, like MasenkoHA said Goku killed mecha Freeza and Kind Cold in F.Trunk's timeline.

Goku absolutely tried to kill Cell outright with his IT Kamehameha and was not going "WAKU WAKU!" When Cell regenerated, he was shocked and worried.

Goku screaming at Gohan to kill Cell makes Perfect sense and in the Buu Saga Goku managed to have his cake and eat it too by wishing to reincarnate Kid Buu into a good person so he could fight him again (one of the few selfish wishes Goku ever made on the Dragon Balls)

This betrayal of his character development is why modern Goku is such a badly written character to watch sometimes, Resurrection F and the Moro arc's climax are a spit in the face to who he was in the original series.

"WAKU WAKU Freeza! You almost surpassed my decades of training, including being trained by the STRONGEST BEING IN THE UNIVERSE by doing God knows what for 4 months!!?? YES please leave the planet and TRAIN even more and come back for a rematch!!"

"What's that Whis I should actually kill Moro who keeps telling me he's an evil sack of shit!? Hmmmmmm Okay! WHAT he fused with the Earth itself and became a living bomb! How did such a thing happen!!"

The fact that people are even questioning Goku's character from the original manga because of Super makes me question if Dragon Ball should have even come back at all.

There's still hope that the DBS manga gets cancelled, Daima is a nice send off and Dragon Ball and Goku can lay dormant once again.

This is the answer I agree with the most. As others also pointed out Goku had learned his lesson with Freezer and I think he wanted to do what every parent wants to: he was teaching gohan to do better than him.