Goku is not really a low class saiyan warrior, he's a genetic freak of nature

[Hugo Boss]

Goku and Vegeta were about the same during Ginyu.
Then Goku sat on a healing tube for a while and got 33 times stronger out of nowhere.

It wasn’t out of nowhere. Since Goku left to Namek he didn’t rest properly until Vegeta brought him in to the healing tube. Senzu beans only heal the body. Vegeta himself after a little nap powered-up to almost Freeza’s first form level and he didn’t train as hard as Goku.

[MasenkoHA]

And Vegeta who was skating by on this trait got his shit rocked by Freeza...

Meanwhile Goku who actually did train hard performed much better and far and away surpassed Vegeta.

So idk how it loses credibility when you look at what actually happens between Goku and Vegeta in the Namek arc

Goku and Vegeta were about the same during Ginyu.
Then Goku sat on a healing tube for a while and got 33 times stronger out of nowhere.
The techniques Goku trained for and used against Freeza all turned out to be useless, and he only got saved by a magical anger-based power-up.

They weren't about the same during Ginyu. Vegeta got his ass beat by Rikum and Goku made quick work of him.

Yes, Goku got a significant boost from healing from his injuries sustained from Captain Ginyu but considering Goku was significantly stronger than Vegeta (even before Super Saiyan) despite Vegeta getting multiple.Saiyan boost its clear Goku's actual training made the bigger difference.

And then what do you know? Vegeta stops relying on Saiyan biology to get stronger. Almost as if the lesson learned was you can't depend solely on shortcuts

Like, yes, Toriyama is no stranger to cheap ways for the characters to get stronger (Super God Water being the worst offender) but the story consistently and well past Namek makes it clear actual hardwork is more important than magic handouts or natural genetics.

[kemuri07]

He's the Scott Steiner of Dragon Ball.

YOU SEE VEGETA, YOU ONLY HAVE ABOUT A 30% CHANCE AT BEST TO DEFEAT ME. CUZ I'M A GENETIC FREAK..AND I'M NOT NORMAL!

[tonysoprano300]

I am surprised Tonysoprano is getting so many thoughtful, character driven, well written and received arguments and STILL buys into the "Vegeta is the real underdog and goku is the privileged one." Its notable because normally, he is one to REALLY appreciate good and nuanced writing and this is something Toriyama kept consistent and nuanced. Goku is stronger than Vegeta because he is smart at training, knowing how to improve himself and grow and that he needs a stronger partner to outdo himself and that Gohan could be the badass he became. It's really odd that tony would buy that "Vegeta is the real underdog and the smarter training coach" Super bullshit Toriyama is selling. Because like I said in another thread I started, this is a retroactive bullshit Toriyama came up with when he wrote Super because he didnt have the context of actually being the creator and knowing his creation better than anyone else.

Maybe I kind of made this into a Goku vs Vegeta thing a little too much and I think my ultimate point is probably getting lost because of that. To be absolutely clear, I love the saiyan arc, I view it as the ultimate peak of the DB franchise as a whole. I definitely appreciate what Toriyama was trying to do and I still think the whatever retcons were made in both Minus and the Granolah arc are absolutely horrendous.Mainly because Goku isnt supposed to be a "chosen" one who is prophesized for greatness, he's just a talented kid who grew up in the wilderness and liked training for the sport of it. He wasnt chosen to be the saviour of the universe, it's simply something that naturally occured as a result of his adventures. That was the charm of Goku.

I'm just saying that the way Toriyama wrote Goku in the original run made it look like he is just inherently better than his peers(except Gohan), the series itself didnt place enough emphasis on Goku being this spiritual martial arts master who has to account for his genetic inferiority by constantly thinking outside the box. All of the training we see Goku do in the "Z" portion of DB is mostly strength training in harsh gravity environments, which is...exactly what everyone else does. The most outside the box thing we've ever seen Goku do was essentially just say "Hey, why dont we stay in our SSJ forms so we can get used to it and alleviate the stamina drain?" but I think thats pretty much it.

If anything I would say Super probably makes Goku appear more like an everyman who is surrounded by prodigies that dont work half as hard as he does, Trunks,Gohan, Broly, U6 Saiyans, Freeza etc. are all able to essentially breathe down Goku's neck because they have a genetic advantage that he does not. But Goku stays ahead because he trains non-stop.

And Vegeta who was skating by on this trait got his shit rocked by Freeza...

Meanwhile Goku who actually did train hard performed much better and far and away surpassed Vegeta.

So idk how it loses credibility when you look at what actually happens between Goku and Vegeta in the Namek arc

Goku and Vegeta were about the same during Ginyu.
Then Goku sat on a healing tube for a while and got 33 times stronger out of nowhere.
The techniques Goku trained for and used against Freeza all turned out to be useless, and he only got saved by a magical anger-based power-up.

They weren't about the same during Ginyu. Vegeta got his ass beat by Rikum and Goku made quick work of him.

Yes, Goku got a significant boost from healing from his injuries sustained from Captain Ginyu but considering Goku was significantly stronger than Vegeta (even before Super Saiyan) despite Vegeta getting multiple.Saiyan boost its clear Goku's actual training made the bigger difference.

And then what do you know? Vegeta stops relying on Saiyan biology to get stronger. Almost as if the lesson learned was you can't depend solely on shortcuts

Goku did take advantage of saiyan Biology when he trained in 100X gravity, it was outright stated through narration that Goku's constantly working himself to near death then eating a senzu was him essentially abusing Zenkai's just like Vegeta was

https://imgur.com/zyfmMQ7

[Cure Dragon 255]

I am surprised Tonysoprano is getting so many thoughtful, character driven, well written and received arguments and STILL buys into the "Vegeta is the real underdog and goku is the privileged one." Its notable because normally, he is one to REALLY appreciate good and nuanced writing and this is something Toriyama kept consistent and nuanced. Goku is stronger than Vegeta because he is smart at training, knowing how to improve himself and grow and that he needs a stronger partner to outdo himself and that Gohan could be the badass he became. It's really odd that tony would buy that "Vegeta is the real underdog and the smarter training coach" Super bullshit Toriyama is selling. Because like I said in another thread I started, this is a retroactive bullshit Toriyama came up with when he wrote Super because he didnt have the context of actually being the creator and knowing his creation better than anyone else.

Maybe I kind of made this into a Goku vs Vegeta thing a little too much and I think my ultimate point is probably getting lost because of that. To be absolutely clear, I love the saiyan arc, I view it as the ultimate peak of the DB franchise as a whole. I definitely appreciate what Toriyama was trying to do and I still think the whatever retcons were made in both Minus and the Granolah arc are absolutely horrendous.Mainly because Goku isnt supposed to be a "chosen" one who is prophesized for greatness, he's just a talented kid who grew up in the wilderness and liked training for the sport of it. He wasnt chosen to be the saviour of the universe, it's simply something that naturally occured as a result of his adventures. That was the charm of Goku.

I'm just saying that the way Toriyama wrote Goku in the original run made it look like he is just inherently better than his peers(except Gohan), the series itself didnt place enough emphasis on Goku being this spiritual martial arts master who has to account for his genetic inferiority by constantly thinking outside the box. All of the training we see Goku do in the "Z" portion of DB is mostly strength training in harsh gravity environments, which is...exactly what everyone else does. The most outside the box thing we've ever seen Goku do was essentially just say "Hey, why dont we stay in our SSJ forms so we can get used to it and alleviate the stamina drain?" but I think thats pretty much it.

If anything I would say Super probably makes Goku appear more like an everyman who is surrounded by prodigies that dont work half as hard as he does, Trunks,Gohan, Broly, U6 Saiyans, Freeza etc. are all able to essentially breathe down Goku's neck because they have a genetic advantage that he does not. But Goku stays ahead because he trains non-stop.

I can feel you right there, you are very smart and well spoken, but I constantly mess up my wording, not really getting my point across. I dont think Toriyama meant to emphasize that, its just something that was and one of the very few "Show dont tell" things that isnt IN YOUR FACE. And its amazing because Toriyama is the last person to go for "Subtle" or "Nuanced". And I didnt come to this conclusion right away, its something you realize when you see the writing between the lines so to speak.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

Two things can be true at once. Goku trained with teachers who guided him to recognize his limits and areas where he specifically needed to improve. Vegeta for most of the series only saw training in the sense of physical strength. Goku even said that Vegeta spending a second year in ROSAT wouldn't benefit him, and he'd just be "torturing [his] body". Vegeta didn't really train to master ki control until achieving Super Saiyan Blue.

[Saiya6Cit]

The legendary super saiyan is Gohan as he has powers not only from the saiyan race but also from the Ox Satan legacy.


Goku was capable to turn to a super saiyan without having an Elite Warrior bloodline because he hit his head as a child, unlocking the part of his brain that would restrict his powers, mutating, therefore becoming something more than a low class saiyan. When Grandpa Gohan found Goku the story says that it was a very agressive child, it was hard for him to bath him and such, but it is canon that after his head trauma incident Goku became tamed to the point of literally being capable to sleep on Gohan's balls.

So... both things happen at the same time. He is a low class saiyan genetically but he is a genetic freak of nature.

[super michael]

Goku had many masters, that is the difference between him and the other Saiyans. He had Grandpa Gohan, Master Roshi, Karin, Mr Popo, Kami, Kaio, Yardrat and metamoran in Dragon Ball to learn and train from.
Then later on Goku had Whis, Beerus and Merus to learn and train with.

Saiyan judge on class not how they grow, but the power they are born with. Goku as born with a power level of 2, that is what made him a low class Saiyan. Saiyans that are born with higher power level, they are in higher class.

[tonysoprano300]

Goku had many masters, that is the difference between him and the other Saiyans. He had Grandpa Gohan, Master Roshi, Karin, Mr Popo, Kami, Kaio, Yardrat and metamoran in Dragon Ball to learn and train from.
Then later on Goku had Whis, Beerus and Merus to learn and train with.

Saiyan judge on class not how they grow, but the power they are born with. Goku as born with a power level of 2, that is what made him a low class Saiyan. Saiyans that are born with higher power level, they are in higher class.

Just saying that I don’t consider Goku to be an everyman, he’s exceptionally gifted and eclipsed many of his peers who arguably work just as hard as he does. I think the difference between him and say Nappa for instance, is far too significant to only be a result of hard work(whatever that means, since Nappa was on the front lines with Vegeta and by the stories own admission Adult saiyans are sent to conquer difficult planets). I think the saiyans ultimately just had a very rigid way of calculating fighting potential that couldn’t account for how quickly Goku could grow.

I think that undermines the theme of the saiyan saga because it shows us that none of the heroes on earth stood any chance against them despite all of the training they did on Earth.

[Koitsukai]

I think there's a middle ground. Goku is not a freak of nature like Broly, Vegeta or his own son, but he is also not the shitty low class warrior he was deemed to be when he was born.

Having spent 2 decades in a school playground while most saiyans grew up in a military bootcamp, and only in his mid-20s having a taste of the actual gravity every other saiyan experienced on a daily basis except for those weeks they were out conquering planets, his body was never really tested to its limits. It was only for like 6 months with Kaio sama, and that skyrocketed his power, putting him above the likes of Nappa even without KK.
Of course, this gets sorta retconned because originally he was born and shipped soon enough, and now he was in stasis for like 3 years, although who knows if you experience gravity properly inside those pods.

He's like a footballer that played many years in the MLS when he is actually Champions League material, a few UCL games played and he already made it into the team of the week, year and history.
So, I think he is genetically gifted to a certain extent but also more improvement-driven than other saiyans.

[tonysoprano300]

Two things can be true at once. Goku trained with teachers who guided him to recognize his limits and areas where he specifically needed to improve. Vegeta for most of the series only saw training in the sense of physical strength. Goku even said that Vegeta spending a second year in ROSAT wouldn't benefit him, and he'd just be "torturing [his] body". Vegeta didn't really train to master ki control until achieving Super Saiyan Blue.

That’s another instance that I find very fascinating, I'm pretty sure that Toriyama’s intention was to make Goku look like he was a step ahead of everyone else, but in retrospect Goku was just wrong. Vegeta did get stronger by going in ROSAT the second time and he was better off going in twice rather than only once. I guess the argument is that there would be diminishing returns but if the alternative is doing nothing then Vegeta really has nothing to lose.

In terms of the ki control thing…Vegeta by the end of the Namek could control his ki as well as anyone on the dragon team. Like what could say Piccolo do in terms of Ki control that Vegeta cant?

I think there's a middle ground. Goku is not a freak of nature like Broly, Vegeta or his own son, but he is also not the shitty low class warrior he was deemed to be when he was born.

Having spent 2 decades in a school playground while most saiyans grew up in a military bootcamp, and only in his mid-20s having a taste of the actual gravity every other saiyan experienced on a daily basis except for those weeks they were out conquering planets, his body was never really tested to its limits. It was only for like 6 months with Kaio sama, and that skyrocketed his power, putting him above the likes of Nappa even without KK.
Of course, this gets sorta retconned because originally he was born and shipped soon enough, and now he was in stasis for like 3 years, although who knows if you experience gravity properly inside those pods.

He's like a footballer that played many years in the MLS when he is actually Champions League material, a few UCL games played and he already made it into the team of the week, year and history.
So, I think he is genetically gifted to a certain extent but also more improvement-driven than other saiyans.

I agree with most of this, I call him a genetic freak just because I think being a top 5 warrior in the history of your species likely means you’re a natural prodigy. Same way that being a top 5 player in NBA history probably means you’re a freakish athletic specimen.