DragonBall Z Abridged

[AliTheZombie13]

The problem is that Piccolo's death makes sense & I don't mind it because of how it functions in the narrative, but he only comes back to die after getting his ass handed to him by Baby-possessed Gohan & Goten. Hardly the dignity & respect earned by Piccolo at that point, eh? Narratively, it feels very hollow due to the execution. The fact that it hinges on you having that pre-established respect you have for Piccolo from the previous shows or the manga is a big flaw. Imagine from the point of view of a kid in 1996 whose first DB series was GT. What respect do they have for Piccolo, or context do they have as to why his death is sad & the characters feel sad he's sacrificing himself? When part of the mission statement of the series originally was to be more open to a general audience like the older DB arcs were, it works against what the writers set out to do. The series started out wanting to be a fresh start to the franchise after a decade of ongoing stories that were increasingly hard to get into because of how long it had been going on & how much prior continuity there was to go back & read through or watch (not easy to do in 90s Japan because Toei only released the films on VHS & laserdisc at the time), only to pivoting to being a true sequel series to the previous ones & trying to continue the stories from them.

It brings about the contradictions of GT & why it actively fights against itself writing-wise. Another series I can easily compare it to is Doctor Who. The Chibnall era soft rebooted the show with a series of episodes where you don't need to have much familiarity of the previous material to get into, only for the next series to pivot due to longtime fan backlash that it started throwing all the continuity it could at you to try to appease them. Nevermind the fact that Series 11 wasn't bad due to a lack of overarching continuity, more so it just being meh at best with most of what it did.

OK, let me ask you a simple question:
Did Yamcha's death in Z do anything for you?

I mean, it's a new series, a new tone. A soft reboot if you will.
Imagine a kid who never saw anything Dragon Ball related, which I assume is most of us from the West.
...Who is Yamcha? Why the hell should I care that he's dead? Why the hell should I care that this girl is crying for him? Why should I care that they're setting up an entire space mission to go resurrect him when he's barely had any scenes at all in this arc? Likewise, why should I feel the same for this Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu guys? I mean, all they did while they were on screen was getting their asses beaten. Should I care? Was any of it earned by Z alone? By your logic, obviously not.

No no no, don't tell me "Oh, but it's because Z is a sequel to the original!"
Don't even come at me with, "Oh, but Dragon Ball is supposed to be a single thing!"
Whatever you say, can also be applied to GT. Like Z, it starts during a time-skip to another point in the heroes' lives and clearly announces itself as a sequel to the previous series, its first episode starts off where the last episode of the previous one left off.

There is no ambiguity here. It's a sequel. It's the same continuity. Everything that happened before matters. The writers don't need to build the audience's sympathy for a character that has already been built by their own pre-established continuity.

[...]

I mean, you're focusing on minor comments like that when the whole review series has them also paying compliments to the things they liked as well as talking about the negatives. Lani himself says he's accepted that GT isn't good, but appreciates it anyways. Kaiser himself also went in wanting to give GT another chance because he hadn't seen it in years in the original Japanese dub, which they've been watching. And if you don't agree with their opinions, that's fine & they can accept it. Hell, they let Kirran have the spotlight with Super Saiyan 4 for 1 of their DBcembers when they were ranking transformations because he's a GT fan. I think they can be generous to the good things GT produced when they wanna be.

[...]

That's I think the angle they were coming at that from. If you find that nitpicky, or it doesn't make sense, then that's whatever, but there IS a logical basis for that line of thinking.

Again, my problem isn't the comment itself, it's just their hate-boner for the series.
The problem is that it becomes especially apparent when they decide to spend a good portion ranting about "Attack Name+" when Dragon Ball itself has a lot of dumb shit that you should not pay attention to.

I mean, they're free to state their opinion, but when you devolve yourself into going into a negative-ass rant about how much a series sucks because of a dumb Attack Name, then I am also completely free to say in response, "Sorry you have so much of a hate-boner for a dumb kids' show, damn!"

Again, it's not JUST that comment alone, it's the entire review. It feels too negative-based.

To state my own opinions of GT for a second...

[...]

So, yeah. I think you can guess that I'm more on Kaiser & Lani's side for this shit. GT isn't good overall, tbh. Has good elements, but I'm constantly let down by the executions of the ideas in it. I prefer Super's takes on a lot of things as a sequel series, warts & all.

Hey... Here's thing: You can think GT sucks AND not sound like a ranting loser.
It's not that hard, actually. MistareFusion does it and I respect him for it.

Sorry if "Rage-bait Ranting YouTubers #521" is not my cup of tea for watching a review, but it really isn't.
Needless to say, I dropped their reviews after their "ranting losers" comment. They don't have faith in themselves to be partial, why should I?

[MasenkoHA]

. Once the space shit gets going, you don't need to understand much about the prior continuity.

This is basically every single arc in Dragon Ball. It's designed to let newcomers still come in at anytime and follow along because it has to. Doesn't change its still dependent on past material for resonance. Just because a newcomer isn't going to he moved by Piccolo's death (assuming they never backtrack and watch/read older material which...doubt) doesn't mean its unearned or meaningless for long time viewers.

That was the whole point with going back to the style & tone of early DB after years of the Z style. Hell, withing Dragon Ball itself, the shift from the 23rd World Tournament to the Saiyan Arc was a soft reboot in terms of tone & world building. That's part of why Toei made Z rather than continuing the original Dragon Ball branding (on top of other reasons, I know).

And much of the Saiyan arc is dependent on familiarity with the past series for pathos. Yes, you can understand what's going on if it's your first arc (and for most people in Anglo Saxon countries it unfortunately was) but you have no reason to give a shit about Tenshinhan, Yamucha, and Chaozu dying without having been familiar with the previous arcs. And although you can still feel something from Piccolo dying because of the time spent with Gohan you really don't get how meaningful it is for Piccolo to lay down his life for Goku's snot nosed brat if you hadn't watched/read the Piccolo arcs. And the big reveal that Goku is an alien meant to conquer the earth is just so so much more meaningful if you had been following his story from the beginning. What should be a big shake up to the status quo and turns the entire series on its head is just basic knowledge if you start with Z.

Just because a series is structured to be as accessible as possible because every episode/chapter is someone's first doesn't mean the past doesn't matter and that long time fans aren't rewarded for sticking witth the story

[Koitsukai]

I started watching Z when Yamcha died and had no idea who he was, I had to fill in the blanks myself as to who he was based on characters mourning him. The other characters told me who Yamcha was, how much he meant to them and that was fine, that worked. In GT, Gohan does that for the audience, and it works just as great.

However, Piccolo's death doesn't work for me like Yamcha's.
There's no need for him to die, sure the DDBs disappear with him but... the Earth blew up anyway. It's not like he saved the planet from exploding. If he were to escape like the rest, then after they bring back the planet, they only need to find only one DDB in outer space to prevent somebody out there gathering all 7 and fucking everything up again. And keep that one DDB somewhere safer than just a big bowl in a doorless room, like the ROSAT.

I understand space was already done and they needed to close the new set of DB's narrative, but I don't believe Piccolo had to be the one stuck with the bill. But the writers wanted to fuck over Big Green anyhow, they didn't even let him return to heaven after helping out Goku, lol.

[Grimlock]

They also tend to mix in filler materials from the DB anime shows no matter how much they don't make sense to as well in spots, so good luck saying this is the true canon of post DB manga/Z anime DB if you want it to be that.

I don't think this is a matter of "luck". It seems to be a matter of backing up your personal preference if you want it to be "true".

Also, they threw in Cooler which...doesn't make any sense either.

Why not?

[AliTheZombie13]

However, Piccolo's death doesn't work for me like Yamcha's.
There's no need for him to die, sure the DDBs disappear with him but... the Earth blew up anyway. It's not like he saved the planet from exploding. If he were to escape like the rest, then after they bring back the planet, they only need to find only one DDB in outer space to prevent somebody out there gathering all 7 and fucking everything up again. And keep that one DDB somewhere safer than just a big bowl in a doorless room, like the ROSAT.

I understand space was already done and they needed to close the new set of DB's narrative, but I don't believe Piccolo had to be the one stuck with the bill. But the writers wanted to fuck over Big Green anyhow, they didn't even let him return to heaven after helping out Goku, lol.

YMMV, but it works for me. Narratively, Piccolo sacrificing himself to protect Earth as Kami, realizing this entire shitshow only happened because of his previous life creating the artifacts that are destroying it, only to go to Hell and become its new security guard as Demon King Piccolo works incredible and is a fantastic way to pay homage to both of his character origins. Like many things in GT, it's rushed and executed not that well, but it did the job. If other people don't like it, that's fine enough. But I draw the line at you yelling at the top of your lungs that anybody who likes it is somehow stupid for liking it just because you have a thing against the very show you're watching.

[Scsigs]

OK, let me ask you a simple question:
Did Yamcha's death in Z do anything for you?

I mean, it's a new series, a new tone. A soft reboot if you will.
Imagine a kid who never saw anything Dragon Ball related, which I assume is most of us from the West.
...Who is Yamcha? Why the hell should I care that he's dead? Why the hell should I care that this girl is crying for him? Why should I care that they're setting up an entire space mission to go resurrect him when he's barely had any scenes at all in this arc? Likewise, why should I feel the same for this Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu guys? I mean, all they did while they were on screen was getting their asses beaten. Should I care? Was any of it earned by Z alone? By your logic, obviously not.

No no no, don't tell me "Oh, but it's because Z is a sequel to the original!"
Don't even come at me with, "Oh, but Dragon Ball is supposed to be a single thing!"
Whatever you say, can also be applied to GT. Like Z, it starts during a time-skip to another point in the heroes' lives and clearly announces itself as a sequel to the previous series, its first episode starts off where the last episode of the previous one left off.

There is no ambiguity here. It's a sequel. It's the same continuity. Everything that happened before matters. The writers don't need to build the audience's sympathy for a character that has already been built by their own pre-established continuity.

TBH, no. His death, devoid of the context of who Yamcha is & why he's important, is emotionally empty outside of escalating the threat of who Vegeta & Nappa are. It still works in that respect, but in the manga & Kai (I still have yet to actually sit through most of the original Z anime for a multitude of reasons, tbh), the only context you're given for Yamcha is that he's a cheating bastard & he only shows up to die. The Z anime, though, also has filler which gives you a taste of his personality from what I do know. Filler that has Yamcha coming off a Baseball game being informed of what's going off after Goku dies & a training filler with Krillin, Tien, Chiaotzu, & Yajirobe on the Lookout.

The context for Yamcha dying is also different for him & Piccolo for a multitude of reasons.
1. Yamcha dies to up the stakes in an escalating fight & to take an already-established character from the series to do that with that you didn't realize COULD die. It's like how The Walking Dead or Game of Thrones would kill off main characters to keep the audience more engaged with the shows. Piccolo's death is him dying to put the black star Dragon Balls out of commission so they no longer have to worry about anyone using them
2. Yamcha's death is planned to be reversed by his friends finding the Namekian Dragon Balls alongside Tien, Chiaotzu's, Piccolo's, & Kami's. Piccolo's isn't planned to be undone. So, the death being undone is a motivating factor for Goku, Gohan, Krillin, & Bulma in Z while it's the definitive end in GT.
3. It IS Yamcha getting jobbed like Piccolo, but if we're taking the Z anime into account, he was shown in filler with the others to be training. They get sent into (I think) a simulation of the past & get jobbed by 2 Saiyans, which was used to heighten the threat of Vegeta & Nappa & he's shown to be fine after that. Piccolo only enters the fray to be immediately jobbed by Baby possessing Gohan & Goten, then he's not in the arc anymore until he shows up again out of nowhere just to die. Until then, you could easily assume he's dead until he shows up again.
4. The Z anime is still adapting the manga, which outside of the Viz release of it doesn't have the delineation between Dragon Ball & Z. It's meant to be one continuous storyline told over many arcs. GT wasn't adapting a manga & there's a clear break between the end of the previous series & the start of this one. Stylistically, writing-wise, & what not, GT has the distinction of not being based off a Toriyama-written manga. And since the Z anime was still adapting the manga, it holds the distinction of people knowing that it's Toei who decided to rename it. Toei could've easily just kept the name of the show the same, changed up the opening & ending animation to be different from what came before, & kept it business as usual. The only reason they did it from what I've seen was to be able to market a new series & the producers saw how different the Saiyan Arc of the manga was from the previous arcs, so they did it because corporate reasons.
5. The characters actually mourn their friends & the impact is felt. It's embellished in the Z anime, but even in the manga & Kai, there's a good amount of the characters mourning their friends' deaths. Piccolo gets a bit of it, but then Goku says a thing & Gohan feels instantly better. It's like the end of the Future Trunks Arc in Super where Trunks & Mai's timeline was wiped out by Zeno to defeat Zamasu, only for them not to spend any time mourning the loss of it & allowing Trunks & Mai to express the grief they should've had before Whis brings them to a version of their timeline before Goku Black shows up & takes him out, letting them live in that alternate timeline with their past selves. Something's missing that should be there & the characters don't feel quite right or act like real people.

If I can talk about this candidly for a second, from my perspective, the impact of Yamcha's death is different depending on where you're coming at it from.
Fans who'd been reading the manga or watching the anime before then who have more context as to who Yamcha is will find his death the appropriate amount of shocking Toriyama was going for. Similar to the shock felt when Goku finds Krillin dead when Piccolo shows up with his minions. He's an established character who was a main one for a while that you didn't think would die based on how long he was around & his place in the overall story of DB.
However, if you're introduced to him just reading the Saiyan Arc or watching the Z anime with no prior knowledge of who he is, the impact is lessened substantially & only matters because it escalates the stakes (which, Tien's, Chiaotzu's, & Piccolo's deaths do a much better job of, imo) of the upcoming battle. It became a meme for a while for a reason & everyone made fun of Yamcha for years for being jobbed like he was in Z. IMO, if Piccolo's defeat in GT was done in a similar manner, more people would make fun of it.

Again, my problem isn't the comment itself, it's just their hate-boner for the series.
The problem is that it becomes especially apparent when they decide to spend a good portion ranting about "Attack Name+" when Dragon Ball itself has a lot of dumb shit that you should not pay attention to.

I mean, they're free to state their opinion, but when you devolve yourself into going into a negative-ass rant about how much a series sucks because of a dumb Attack Name, then I am also completely free to say in response, "Sorry you have so much of a hate-boner for a dumb kids' show, damn!"

Again, it's not JUST that comment alone, it's the entire review. It feels too negative-based.

I don't really know what you expected. Like, at all. These are the guys that spent a decade making a Z parody & still do similar content now. They have a good amount of respect for that series & Kaiser holds OG DB in a special light because he likes it so much. They've been on record multiple times saying that they don't have fond opinions of GT & I didn't expect them to just suddenly pull a 180 by rewatching it as adults. As adults, they're able to more properly review the material they're given in a piece of media than when they were kids. I rewatched GT as an older teen when I got the DVDs & I didn't have a great opinion of it either.
I explained why they brought up the Kamehameha x10 thing, but IMO, when we're in a series where attacks get big, flashy names, I don't think it's that nitpicky to get on an attack name they think is dumb, tbh. And, from my memory, they haven't actually done specifically that too much. So, I don't think it's bad that they brought that up. It doesn't take away from their other, more substantive opinions.

Hey... Here's thing: You can think GT sucks AND not sound like a ranting loser.
It's not that hard, actually. MistareFusion does it and I respect him for it.

Sorry if "Rage-bait Ranting YouTubers #521" is not my cup of tea for watching a review, but it really isn't.
Needless to say, I dropped their reviews after their "ranting losers" comment. They don't have faith in themselves to be partial, why should I?

I don't know who goes into a review series of DBGT by 2/4 of Team Four Star & expects them to have an opinion of the series that isn't consistent with their previously-expressed ones. If you know the personalities involved, nothing should be surprising to you.
And, stylistically, MistareFusion is much different to TFS. His retrospective series has always been consistently a series that approaches the series from a more calm manner where he scripts his thoughts & records after having digested everything he's taken in. And, if you don't remember, allow me to remind you that his reviews of Episode of Bardock & DB Minus exist where he ranted a lot more about how bad they are in a manner like TFS. TFS watch 2-3 episodes, then record their thoughts based on those chunks. It's not meant to be ragebait, it's their raw thoughts immediately after watching the episodes. Rewatching their earliest videos on the show in this series, the tone is not ragebaity or ranting. That's an extremely uncharitable reading of what they're doing with this series. It's more negative & nitpicky, yes, but they literally point out what they like, or find charming about some things. They have more positive things to say than you're either remembering, or giving them credit for. They're also passionate about the material & if they find something they don't like, they're gonna talk about it. That's the whole point of the review series.

This is basically every single arc in Dragon Ball. It's designed to let newcomers still come in at anytime and follow along because it has to. Doesn't change its still dependent on past material for resonance. Just because a newcomer isn't going to be moved by Piccolo's death (assuming they never backtrack and watch/read older material which...doubt) doesn't mean its unearned or meaningless for long time viewers.

It's not necessarily meaningless in terms of the story or narrative. Narratively, it functions as it should. The problem is that it's meaningless if you're new to the series. It's also not really built up anywhere & Piccolo doesn't redeem himself with Baby beforehand. It's thus not as impactful as it could easily be, comes right out of nowhere, & feels completely unearned as a result. It also just feels unsatisfying coming at it from a longtime fan perspective. It's like Joel's death in The Last of Us 2. I don't personally care much that he died, but the way he was taken out was unsatisfying.

And much of the Saiyan arc is dependent on familiarity with the past series for pathos. Yes, you can understand what's going on if it's your first arc (and for most people in Anglo Saxon countries it unfortunately was) but you have no reason to give a shit about Tenshinhan, Yamucha, and Chaozu dying without having been familiar with the previous arcs. And although you can still feel something from Piccolo dying because of the time spent with Gohan you really don't get how meaningful it is for Piccolo to lay down his life for Goku's snot nosed brat if you hadn't watched/read the Piccolo arcs. And the big reveal that Goku is an alien meant to conquer the earth is just so so much more meaningful if you had been following his story from the beginning. What should be a big shake up to the status quo and turns the entire series on its head is just basic knowledge if you start with Z.

Just because a series is structured to be as accessible as possible because every episode/chapter is someone's first doesn't mean the past doesn't matter and that long time fans aren't rewarded for sticking with the story

I mean, yes, but GT was made to be a jumping on point. It comes off a clean ending to the original manga & Z where character arcs were wrapped up & all of the previous threats were taken care of, so it had nothing to worry about in regards to prior continuity getting in the way of future stories. You also don't need to fully understand who each character is because you assume they'll slowly reintroduce each character over the series & give you a good sense of who they are. That's part of the point of a sequel that's made to be more accessible than its predecessor.

And, to say this, even earlier than the Saiyan Arc, Toriyama was using prior continuity to inform his arcs & to inform the current one he was writing, which kinda disproves what you said about him making each arc accessible to new readers. The Piccolo Daimao Arc literally starts with Goku finding Krillin dead after they came off the last World Tournament, which you also wouldn't feel much connection to unless you'd been paying attention to the series before then. And then the 23rd World Tournament Arc where all the previous main characters meet up. It's spiritually an ending to everything that came before. You get the characters meeting back up for the first time in 5 years, Piccolo Jr. shows up after being plotted at the end of the previous arc, Chichi comes back in for the first time in a while & marries Goku, & Goku defeats Piccolo Jr. All of these things are narratively satisfying for longtime DB fans who'd been reading or watching up until that point.
And even in the arcs after, the Saiyan Arc is somewhat of a clean opening soft reboot to the series (again, tonally it starts the shift from the previous arcs, it introduces a new status quo, & introduces a shit ton of new lore that was never there before). The Freeza Arc then comes off the back of the previous one where it's a natural extension of it used to solve the problems introduced in the previous arc. You wouldn't be fully narratively satisfied just by watching it alone without the previous arc's context. The Android Arc is literally a sequel to the Red Ribbon Army Arc, but you don't necessarily need all of that context to get what's going on or why Gero would be doing what he does in it. Goku also has a character arc in this arc that is better parsed if you're familiar with the previous 3 arcs with how he's been with the main villains. Then, the Buu Arc is dependent on you being familiar with the characters, their previous characterizations & established arcs, & what not to fully appreciate it, especially since it's the last arc of the original run of the manga & Z, to be anywhere fully narratively satisfied. Vegeta's sacrifice is dependent on you being familiar with the character & liking where his character arc goes, for instance. It, thus, makes perfect sense to me how the GT writers would wanna make things as accessible as possible for newcomers.

I started watching Z when Yamcha died and had no idea who he was, I had to fill in the blanks myself as to who he was based on characters mourning him. The other characters told me who Yamcha was, how much he meant to them and that was fine, that worked. In GT, Gohan does that for the audience, and it works just as great.

However, Piccolo's death doesn't work for me like Yamcha's.
There's no need for him to die, sure the DDBs disappear with him but...the Earth blew up anyway. It's not like he saved the planet from exploding. If he were to escape like the rest, then after they bring back the planet, they only need to find only one DDB in outer space to prevent somebody out there gathering all 7 and fucking everything up again. And keep that one DDB somewhere safer than just a big bowl in a doorless room, like the ROSAT.

I understand space was already done and they needed to close the new set of DB's narrative, but I don't believe Piccolo had to be the one stuck with the bill. But the writers wanted to fuck over Big Green anyhow, they didn't even let him return to heaven after helping out Goku, lol.

This. Piccolo's death isn't helped by the fact that while it makes perfect sense, it solves a problem that could easily be solved in a few different ways if you think about it for even a second. As I said, I don't mind him dying, but I hate the execution of it.

They also tend to mix in filler materials from the DB anime shows no matter how much they don't make sense to as well in spots, so good luck saying this is the true canon of post DB manga/Z anime DB if you want it to be that.

I don't think this is a matter of "luck". It seems to be a matter of backing up your personal preference if you want it to be "true".

I don't think I brought up luck. However, to bring this up, Dragon Ball has multiple continuities.
1. Manga.
2. DB, Z, & GT animes.
3. Movies, which have multiple ones in of themselves.
4. Kai.
5. Super, both the anime & manga, which begins with Battle of Gods into Daima as the official continuation of the manga's timeline.
6. Video games which have new narratives, such as Online, Xenoverse, & FighterZ.
7. Evolution.

Toriyama's manga is the true canon because it's where everything else spawns from & it's from his brain.

Also, they threw in Cooler which...doesn't make any sense either.

Why not?

Even within the Z anime, the movies are not canon to the main events of the series. None of the movies were made to be canon, some just ended up with places you could slot them in. Cooler is never mentioned by Freeza or King Cold in the manga, Z anime, or Super. He is thus non-canon until an inevitable movie or show arc that reboots him into the main timeline when Toei continues their anime productions without Toriyama's involvement & try to do what Toriyama pulled off with Broly for an attempt at fanservice (wouldn't mind this, btw, as long as it's pulled off well). GT takes place in the DB & Z anime continuity. Thus, Cooler should not exist there & his brief cameo makes no logical sense.

And before anyone says any different, yes, Cooler's first movie can be slotted in the timeskip between when Freeza dies & the Androids show up. However, his second movie has absolutely no place in the timeline of the manga or shows because of too many discrepancies with details between them. Granted, I can give the animators credit that they had him in his final form rather than his metallic form, but logically, he shouldn't be there. Garlic Jr. was already a stretch to come back for that filler arc in Z, Cooler shouldn't be there either.

YMMV, but it works for me. Narratively, Piccolo sacrificing himself to protect Earth as Kami, realizing this entire shitshow only happened because of his previous life creating the artifacts that are destroying it, only to go to Hell and become its new security guard as Demon King Piccolo works incredible and is a fantastic way to pay homage to both of his character origins. Like many things in GT, it's rushed and executed not that well, but it did the job. If other people don't like it, that's fine enough. But I draw the line at you yelling at the top of your lungs that anybody who likes it is somehow stupid for liking it just because you have a thing against the very show you're watching.

Making a LOT of assumptions as to what he said there & why. You're not stupid for enjoying that moment. Somehow, it works for you & that should be all you need because you have your reasons. The problem that comes in is when you don't seem to understand why it doesn't work for anyone else who say it doesn't & you actively fight against the notion that it doesn't like you've come off as doing. For instance, I get why someone would find it narratively satisfying. My main sticking point is that it's missing steps to get there for me & others. It shouldn't be hard to see why even if you don't agree, but you don't seem interested in entertaining that notion.

[AliTheZombie13]

I don't really know what you expected. Like, at all. These are the guys that spent a decade making a Z parody & still do similar content now. They have a good amount of respect for that series & Kaiser holds OG DB in a special light because he likes it so much. They've been on record multiple times saying that they don't have fond opinions of GT & I didn't expect them to just suddenly pull a 180 by rewatching it as adults. As adults, they're able to more properly review the material they're given in a piece of media than when they were kids. I rewatched GT as an older teen when I got the DVDs & I didn't have a great opinion of it either.
I explained why they brought up the Kamehameha x10 thing, but IMO, when we're in a series where attacks get big, flashy names, I don't think it's that nitpicky to get on an attack name they think is dumb, tbh. And, from my memory, they haven't actually done specifically that too much. So, I don't think it's bad that they brought that up. It doesn't take away from their other, more substantive opinions.

I expected to get more of a balanced, nuanced view on it. They promised me a more fair, fresh take now that they're calm, boring adults.
Instead, I get the usual ranting, edgy lunatics "pretending I'm literally dying by watching a TV show" YouTuber shtick.
Though you're right, it is my fault that I expected TFS to offer anything different than that.

Making a LOT of assumptions as to what he said there & why. You're not stupid for enjoying that moment. Somehow, it works for you & that should be all you need because you have your reasons. The problem that comes in is when you don't seem to understand why it doesn't work for anyone else who say it doesn't & you actively fight against the notion that it doesn't like you've come off as doing.

You mean... Just like TFS did?
"I hear so many people say 'Oh, this scene just hits me in the feels-' WHY??? WHY DO YOU LIKE THIS SCENE??? THIS - IS - AWFUL!!!!"

For instance, I get why someone would find it narratively satisfying. My main sticking point is that it's missing steps to get there for me & others. It shouldn't be hard to see why even if you don't agree, but you don't seem interested in entertaining that notion.

I fully understand the complaint of "They should have done more with Piccolo before offing him. Also, they should've explored more options for deactivating the Dragon Balls before coming to that extreme." Honestly, they should've.

However, I do not understand nor respect the complaint of, "This is awful, because the writers didn't earn my sympathy for the character, and anybody who says this scene has gotten them emotional, I do not understand how you like something so awful!"

[Scsigs]

Dragon Ball GTFS Commentary | Episodes 44-45
https://youtu.be/lkoDWrQ29yk?si=uq61vaCr9jQ8M2UA

[miguelnuva1]

Kaiser and Lani have a right to their opinion and they seem like fun people but I guess I feel like a nerd watching their reviews. Half of the problems they seem to have with GT is either answered in Z and they forgot or don't know and the other half has to do it more so in Kaiser's case with personal opinion.

He complaints with Piccolo's death only work in the context of a person having only watched GT.

If a person started with Z and got to Piccolo's death that is a complete arc through the eyes of Gohan.

[Vegard Aune]

The vibe I'm getting is basically that Kaiser tried to go into this with an open mind but any good will he may have had has long since been eroded. It's not the first time I've seen that happen with this show either. I remember once seeing someone who was watching all of Dragon Ball blind, and while they had some gripes they wound up really liking OG DB and Z, but quickly grew to actively hate GT and said the only reason they were even going to watch the rest was because they had paid money for it. After finishing they said they'd sell their DVDs and that they never wanted to watch this awful show again.

...So yeah, similarly, I don't think Kaiser is hamming it up for comedic effect. I think he genuinely is just that sick of this show and it's making him view everything from a negative lens.

[FoolsGil]

Kaiser and Lani have a right to their opinion and they seem like fun people but I guess I feel like a nerd watching their reviews. Half of the problems they seem to have with GT is either answered in Z and they forgot or don't know and the other half has to do it more so in Kaiser's case with personal opinion.

He complaints with Piccolo's death only work in the context of a person having only watched GT.

If a person started with Z and got to Piccolo's death that is a complete arc through the eyes of Gohan.

It is lazy, and terrible writing for the production company to expect the hardcore fans to justify in their heads the story of Piccolo's life from reincarnation to his permanent death, just so they can cut corners and not make Piccolo a character in the new series he's in.

[Grimlock]

I don't think I brought up luck. However, to bring this up, Dragon Ball has multiple continuities.
(...)
3. Movies, which have multiple ones in of themselves.

Debatable.

5. Super, both the anime & manga, which begins with Battle of Gods into Daima as the official continuation of the manga's timeline.
6. Video games which have new narratives, such as Online, Xenoverse, & FighterZ.

It's Dragon Ball Online the continuation of the manga's timeline. Dragon Ball Super is a midquel and it's too broken to be that. Unlike the movies, it does have multiple continuities.

Even within the Z anime, the movies are not canon to the main events of the series. None of the movies were made to be canon, some just ended up with places you could slot them in. Cooler is never mentioned by Freeza or King Cold in the manga, Z anime, or Super. He is thus non-canon until an inevitable movie or show arc that reboots him into the main timeline when Toei continues their anime productions without Toriyama's involvement & try to do what Toriyama pulled off with Broly for an attempt at fanservice (wouldn't mind this, btw, as long as it's pulled off well). GT takes place in the DB & Z anime continuity. Thus, Cooler should not exist there & his brief cameo makes no logical sense.

You've got this way off the mark (besides saying stuff is "non canon"...). Come on, I'm sure you have seen one or two posts of mine explaining all this. It's a very rookie mistake to try to place the movies in the manga or anime continuities. You should not be thinking about the events of the manga or anime as you know them. The movies take place in another dimension, therefore the events of the manga or anime in that place has to be different. The fact that Coola appears in Dragon Ball GT should tell you that it does not take place where you think it does, thus making his appearance rather sensible.

Hint: how do you explain Vegeta knowing the fusion dance? Even Dragon Ball Super Vegeta, who saw fusion from the Otherworld, still had to learn it. Yet, GT Vegeta already knew it. It's as if he had fused before. How? Well, if we take a look at one of the movies...

And before anyone says any different, yes, Cooler's first movie can be slotted in the timeskip between when Freeza dies & the Androids show up. However, his second movie has absolutely no place in the timeline of the manga or shows because of too many discrepancies with details between them. Granted, I can give the animators credit that they had him in his final form rather than his metallic form, but logically, he shouldn't be there. Garlic Jr. was already a stretch to come back for that filler arc in Z, Cooler shouldn't be there either.

Can you make a thread or something and go into details about all these "discrepancies"?

[Scsigs]

I don't think I brought up luck. However, to bring this up, Dragon Ball has multiple continuities.
(...)
3. Movies, which have multiple ones in of themselves.

Debatable.

Not really. Some movies could still happen after the ones before, but others can't. It literally depends on the movie since they were never written to be in a timeline with each other, they were written to pluck the characters out of wherever they were in the anime or manga at the time & put them in a new scenario for a movie. Thus, you run into discrepancies between movies.

5. Super, both the anime & manga, which begins with Battle of Gods into Daima as the official continuation of the manga's timeline.
6. Video games which have new narratives, such as Online, Xenoverse, & FighterZ.

It's Dragon Ball Online the continuation of the manga's timeline. Dragon Ball Super is a midquel and it's too broken to be that. Unlike the movies, it does have multiple continuities.

Online was made to be a continuation of the manga's timeline, yes, & even had lore & story input by Toriyama, but who knows if that's even where things will truly end up? Xenoverse does the same thing, but the shows, movies, & continuation mangas will never acknowledge them because it's better for them if they ignore it for future story developments.

Hence why I say Super's its own timeline from the original manga, though the events from before it takes place still happened. The distant ending to the manga place that in its own timeline & Super in another.

Even within the Z anime, the movies are not canon to the main events of the series. None of the movies were made to be canon, some just ended up with places you could slot them in. Cooler is never mentioned by Freeza or King Cold in the manga, Z anime, or Super. He is thus non-canon until an inevitable movie or show arc that reboots him into the main timeline when Toei continues their anime productions without Toriyama's involvement & try to do what Toriyama pulled off with Broly for an attempt at fanservice (wouldn't mind this, btw, as long as it's pulled off well). GT takes place in the DB & Z anime continuity. Thus, Cooler should not exist there & his brief cameo makes no logical sense.

You've got this way off the mark (besides saying stuff is "non canon"...). Come on, I'm sure you have seen one or two posts of mine explaining all this. It's a very rookie mistake to try to place the movies in the manga or anime continuities. You should not be thinking about the events of the manga or anime as you know them. The movies take place in another dimension, therefore the events of the manga or anime in that place has to be different. The fact that Coola appears in Dragon Ball GT should tell you that it does not take place where you think it does, thus making his appearance rather sensible.

Hint: how do you explain Vegeta knowing the fusion dance? Even Dragon Ball Super Vegeta, who saw fusion from the Otherworld, still had to learn it. Yet, GT Vegeta already knew it. It's as if he had fused before. How? Well, if we take a look at one of the movies...

Maybe I have, but meh.
Yes, it is, but people will try to bullshit it anyways. That was the point of me bringing them up.
The movies take place in multiple timelines where main timeline stuff happened in different ways to let them happen. Xenoverse (& several of the other games that adapt them, tbh) even acknowledged that by saying they take place in alternate timelines.
The problem with thinking GT takes place in any of the movie timelines is that it's not expecting you to have seen any of the other movies. It's expecting you to have watched the prior 2 TV shows because it references both canon from the manga & filler materials & is a continuation of all of those events. Some of the movies also make things from Z & the manga impossible to happen after them. Thinking GT takes place in some weird tertiary timeline is stupid.

Also, towards Vegeta knowing about the fusion dance...
We don't exactly know how he knows about it in GT, but you can assume he learned about it after they defeated Buu, were on Earth, & decompressing from what had just happened. Everyone would be telling the story of what happened from their points of view & you can feasibly guess that Vegeta wanted to know more about the dance after hearing about it, so Goten & Trunks maybe demonstrated it.
Battle of Gods showed that Vegeta knew who Gotenks was, so this is what can be assumed happened. And, him knowing about the dance is separate from knowing how to do it, even if he's seen it before. Hell, Goku demonstrated it to Goten & Trunks with Piccolo & then Piccolo & Krillin had to show it again to them after Goku went back to Otherworld. Vegeta would've probably only seen it the once & Super: Broly takes place years after Buu happened. I wouldn't expect him to remember it, or even know how to do it properly if he hadn't ever done it before, tbh. Would YOU know how to do a somewhat-complicated dance that you have to do in sync with someone an exact way precisely to make it work just by seeing it once years prior? I don't think so.
GT, no idea why Vegeta would remember how to do it if it had been well over a decade since he would've seen it, but GT needed to ignore that fact in order for that plot point to work & not waste time on the details. Fusion Reborn can't happen in the timeline GT takes place in because there's no space for it in the Buu Saga unless you remove the tournament & all of the Earth segments like Buu's Fury did & GT's expecting you to just have followed the shows.

And before anyone says any different, yes, Cooler's first movie can be slotted in the timeskip between when Freeza dies & the Androids show up. However, his second movie has absolutely no place in the timeline of the manga or shows because of too many discrepancies with details between them. Granted, I can give the animators credit that they had him in his final form rather than his metallic form, but logically, he shouldn't be there. Garlic Jr. was already a stretch to come back for that filler arc in Z, Cooler shouldn't be there either.

Can you make a thread or something and go into details about all these "discrepancies"?

There's a great video that does this for every movie really well that I recommend.
https://youtu.be/hSt85B-ayCA?si=Atd6b13mF2GS59ft

For Cooler 2: Electric Boogaloo specifically, though...
I don't know where in the timeline it's supposed to take place. It can't be in the timeskip between Trunks showing up & Gero & 19 appearing, Dende's guardian, which implies Piccolo fused back together with Kami already, but Dende wasn't guardian until after Goku & Gohan trained in the Time Chamber. THAT clearly didn't happen because Goku's not already in his Super Saiyan form & Gohan never goes SS in the movie. Not to mention that Gohan's still smaller than how tall he'd gotten during that training & still has his longer hair.
Then, we get into WHY exactly the gang's going to New Namek in the first place. If this movie takes place while the Androids are on Earth as Dende being guardian implies, Goku gets taken out of commission pretty quickly due to the heart virus, NONE of the others take out an Android besides Vegeta killing 19 where he reveals his Super Saiyan form which he does again in this movie, so they're still around on Earth & wouldn't have the resistance in their terrorizing of the humans. They also wouldn't have the time to go to New Namek due to the Androids, which takes place over a few days before Cell becomes perfect & announces the Cell Games.

Hence why I said the animators were smart to have Cooler in his final form, as you can say that his first movie still happened, but not the second one.

[Grimlock]

Not really. Some movies could still happen after the ones before, but others can't. It literally depends on the movie since they were never written to be in a timeline with each other, they were written to pluck the characters out of wherever they were in the anime or manga at the time & put them in a new scenario for a movie. Thus, you run into discrepancies between movies.

I'm going to need a thread with your own points. I want to see what you have to say and respond to that, not some Youtube video. Clearly I'm missing something because a lot of people say that, but I still can't tell how Movie 1 contradicts Movie 2 (and vice versa), how Movie 2 contradicts Movie 3 (and vice versa) and so on... Last time I asked to be told about this, but unfortunately I got no answer. Now I ask again, can you make a thread and go into details about all this?

The problem with thinking GT takes place in any of the movie timelines is that it's not expecting you to have seen any of the other movies.

And that is a "problem" why, exactly? Just because Dragon Ball GT makes no heavy connections to the movies hardly means anything. I fail to see any "problem" here. Quite the contrary actually, by having all but a cameo from one of the movie villains, it makes things easier to understand. General people can barely grasp the notion of Multiverse, imagine if Dragon Ball went all-out into it (it should...).

Thinking GT takes place in some weird tertiary timeline is stupid.

Then get used to this stupid thing because that seems to be the case already. The idea that Dragon Ball GT takes place in the movies dimension is supported by Dragon Ball Heroes/Dimps. The Time Patrollers, who are the GT characters, acknowledge the movie villains. So we already have one official source backing this up. I wouldn't be surprised if Shueisha also share it or maybe even if that idea came from them. And if that's the case, then I would say it's just a matter of time before you see this idea being executed beyond Dragon Ball Heroes.

Not that we need more implication, statement or anything... Coola appearing in that series should be more than enough to entertain that idea. As well as the Garlic Junior saga acknowledging Movie 1 events establishes it's a filler that doesn't really take place in the anime continuity you know, but in the anime continuity from the movies dimension.

Fusion Reborn can't happen in the timeline GT takes place in because there's no space for it in the Buu Saga unless you remove the tournament & all of the Earth segments like Buu's Fury did & GT's expecting you to just have followed the shows.

There's no space in the series we read and/or watched, we don't know how Majin Buu saga unfolded in that dimension.

For Cooler 2: Electric Boogaloo specifically, though...
I don't know where in the timeline it's supposed to take place. It can't be in the timeskip between Trunks showing up & Gero & 19 appearing, Dende's guardian, which implies Piccolo fused back together with Kami already, but Dende wasn't guardian until after Goku & Gohan trained in the Time Chamber. THAT clearly didn't happen because Goku's not already in his Super Saiyan form & Gohan never goes SS in the movie. Not to mention that Gohan's still smaller than how tall he'd gotten during that training & still has his longer hair.
Then, we get into WHY exactly the gang's going to New Namek in the first place. If this movie takes place while the Androids are on Earth as Dende being guardian implies, Goku gets taken out of commission pretty quickly due to the heart virus, NONE of the others take out an Android besides Vegeta killing 19 where he reveals his Super Saiyan form which he does again in this movie, so they're still around on Earth & wouldn't have the resistance in their terrorizing of the humans. They also wouldn't have the time to go to New Namek due to the Androids, which takes place over a few days before Cell becomes perfect & announces the Cell Games.

Movie 6 takes place on the week preceding Cell's tournament.

[Scsigs]

I'm going to need a thread with your own points. I want to see what you have to say and respond to that, not some Youtube video. Clearly I'm missing something because a lot of people say that, but I still can't tell how Movie 1 contradicts Movie 2 (and vice versa), how Movie 2 contradicts Movie 3 (and vice versa) and so on... Last time I asked to be told about this, but unfortunately I got no answer. Now I ask again, can you make a thread and go into details about all this?

I'd need to rewatch the movies & take notes because I can't remember everything. I thought it was just generally understood that the movies unless they're sequels to each other are generally best taken as in their own timelines otherwise. You get less headaches that way.
I do want to do this eventually, but I don't have the time to now, unfortunately.

And that is a "problem" why, exactly? Just because Dragon Ball GT makes no heavy connections to the movies hardly means anything. I fail to see any "problem" here. Quite the contrary actually, by having all but a cameo from one of the movie villains, it makes things easier to understand. General people can barely grasp the notion of Multiverse, imagine if Dragon Ball went all-out into it (it should...).

The problem is that on a production level, GT was written with the understanding that most people who'd watch it had seen the previous 2 shows or read the manga, as it was intended as a sequel to those. Cooler's relegated to a cameo shot for a few seconds of 1 episode & never appears further in the show. Thus, it's what we call an Easter Egg rather than anything to be taken any more seriously than that.

Then get used to this stupid thing because that seems to be the case already. The idea that Dragon Ball GT takes place in the movies dimension is supported by Dragon Ball Heroes/Dimps. The Time Patrollers, who are the GT characters, acknowledge the movie villains. So we already have one official source backing this up. I wouldn't be surprised if Shueisha also share it or maybe even if that idea came from them. And if that's the case, then I would say it's just a matter of time before you see this idea being executed beyond Dragon Ball Heroes.

Not that we need more implication, statement or anything... Coola appearing in that series should be more than enough to entertain that idea. As well as the Garlic Junior saga acknowledging Movie 1 events establishes it's a filler that doesn't really take place in the anime continuity you know, but in the anime continuity from the movies dimension.

"The Time Patrollers who are the GT characters..."
I need clarification. Do you mean that some of the TP characters are the ones from GT, or are you implying that GT still happens in the main timeline? Because TP Trunks from Xenoverse isn't from GT. He's established as being the Future Trunks from after Z, but not the one from GT, or the one from Super. Which, I don't think I need to remind you, is different than the GT timeline.

As for them knowing who the movie villains are, that doesn't mean that they're from those timelines. They're Time Patrollers. They deal with distortions in the various timelines. Of course they'd know who they are from that. That doesn't mean they're from the same timelines. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

The filler arc from Z, imo, would've been better served as a movie sequel to Dead Zone, but that's neither here nor there. Saying it takes place in the movie universe when the writers clearly were trying to more definitively connect the Z anime continuity to the first movie's (when the first movie has inconsistencies with the anime's timeline anyways) is dumb. You're overthinking stuff that the writers themselves did not.
And, the discontinuities are that Goku & Gohan meet up with Bulma, Krillin, Roshi, & Piccolo before they did in the main timeline of the show or manga. Thus, when they meet up with them at the start of Z, they shouldn't be surprised that Goku has a kid & it shouldn't be the first time they met up in 5 years. And it can't take place after that because of all that happens with the Saiyans & Freeza. Just for clarification.

There's no space in the series we read and/or watched, we don't know how Majin Buu saga unfolded in that dimension.

That's supposing GT takes place in an alternate timeline to the animes that allows for that. Unfortunately, this is you overthinking it & not thinking about it like the original writers did, which was "Hey! Let's put these characters in this scenario as they are now & see what would happen!"

Movie 6 takes place on the week preceding Cell's tournament.

You completely either misread, misremembered, or misunderstood what was written there.
"Franchise Timeline
At the time of the movie’s premiere, both the Dragon Ball manga and Dragon Ball Z TV series were in the beginning of the Artificial Humans story arc. In the manga, Piccolo is in the midst of confronting imperfect Cell in Ginger town and learning as much as he can about their new foe, whereas in the animated adaptation the newly transformed Super Saiyan Vegeta has just handily defeated No. 19 and No. 20 (Gero) flees back to his laboratory."
No it doesn't. This is information on when the movie came out in regards to when it came out in Japanese cinemas relative to the episodes of the anime & chapters of the manga. What I was saying was that the timeline is all kinds of fucked up because nothing about the movie makes any sense when you try to fit it into the show's timeline.
1. Dende is guardian, but Goku & Gohan hadn't trained in the Time Chamber, evident by Gohan still being as small as he was before that, he can't go Super Saiyan, & he still has long hair.
2. If the Androids are still around (like they logically should be) given that evidence points to this movie taking place before Cell absorbed 17 & 18, they'd be terrorizing the Earth & the gang wouldn't let that happen just to go to New Namek.
3. It can't happen beforehand because Vegeta shows he can go Super Saiyan.

[miguelnuva1]

Goku is the only one who sees SS Vegeta do if you want to it takes place about a month before the Android arc and Dende is visiting.

Super Goku would have totally forgot where new Namek was.

[Grimlock]

I thought it was just generally understood that the movies unless they're sequels to each other are generally best taken as in their own timelines otherwise. You get less headaches that way.

"Generally understood" is not something Dragon Ball fans are known to be correct about. "Dragon Ball has a canon", "Movie 14 base Goku is weaker than Freeza", "Kaioshin of South is stronger than Dai Kaioshin"... Just to name a few consensus that a lot of people think are true, but they are not. One of them was even recently debunked, proving a lot of people wrong, by the way. It's one of the reasons I ask to go deep into this, maybe this time people are right? Who knows.

Also, if that gets less headaches and it's true that each movie takes place in a separated continuity, then how come in the Hatchiyack OVA, everyone recognizes everyone? Pretty sure that shouldn't have happened, then.

Anyway, take your time. I'll be waiting for it.

"The Time Patrollers who are the GT characters..."
I need clarification. Do you mean that some of the TP characters are the ones from GT, or are you implying that GT still happens in the main timeline? Because TP Trunks from Xenoverse isn't from GT. He's established as being the Future Trunks from after Z, but not the one from GT, or the one from Super. Which, I don't think I need to remind you, is different than the GT timeline.

It should have been obvious. I obviously wasn't including Trunks, who obviously is not GT Trunks or from GT. If it wasn't obvious then I will be more specific: Xeno Goku, Xeno Vegeta, Xeno Gohan, Xeno Goten and Xeno Pan come from Dragon Ball GT, with the exception of Xeno Trunks, who obviously does not come from Dragon Ball GT. Obvious(ly).

As for them knowing who the movie villains are, that doesn't mean that they're from those timelines. They're Time Patrollers. They deal with distortions in the various timelines. Of course they'd know who they are from that. That doesn't mean they're from the same timelines.

The Time Patrollers and movie characters meet each other in Prison Planet saga, it's the first time they interact. If it is their first interaction and acknowledgement was already made, I can only think of one reason for that... At any rate, I suggest you read the Prison Planet saga from the arcade continuity.

The filler arc from Z, imo, would've been better served as a movie sequel to Dead Zone, but that's neither here nor there. Saying it takes place in the movie universe when the writers clearly were trying to more definitively connect the Z anime continuity to the first movie's (when the first movie has inconsistencies with the anime's timeline anyways) is dumb. You're overthinking stuff that the writers themselves did not.

No, it is you who are oversimplifying this subject. You cannot. All the times this conversation occurred, it required one to think, a lot. And to approach it from an in-universe perspective. You are dismissing it from an out-of-universe perspective and shrugging off as inconsequential under the pretense "the writers didn't think this much". It does not matter what the writers were thinking at that time, what matters is how to deal with all of this. "Since the movies are here, might as well do something with them", that's the mentality you should have by now. Because, at the end of the day, the movies (and Dragon Ball GT) were never labeled as "what-if", or "events that didn't happen". Quite the contrary, Toriyama himself acknowledged them. And it's very unlikely Shueisha would ignore them. So as far as we are all concerned, the movies and GT are as "legit" as the manga. Whether you want to accept or not. So we might as well figure out this mess, however difficult it may be, and no matter how much we must think about, instead of just "the writers didn't put this much thought, why would/should we?", which is, to be honest, the actual stupid thing to do, or the mentality to be had.

And, the discontinuities are that Goku & Gohan meet up with Bulma, Krillin, Roshi, & Piccolo before they did in the main timeline of the show or manga. Thus, when they meet up with them at the start of Z, they shouldn't be surprised that Goku has a kid & it shouldn't be the first time they met up in 5 years. And it can't take place after that because of all that happens with the Saiyans & Freeza. Just for clarification.

You are right, they shouldn't be surprised and, in the movie dimension, Bulma, Kuririn and Muten Roshi are not surprised to see Gohan when he and Goku went to Muten Roshi's house, because the events of Movie 1 had already happened. We are talking about a different reality. In this one, King Cold has two sons instead of one, some characters exist, others apparently do not. This makes it possible for us to assume that the events of the anime in this reality is a little bit different than the one you're familiar with. The reality you're familiar with is not the only one that exists in-universe, there are others and things there may be different. Welcome to the Multiverse -- Can Your Brain Handle It™?

You completely either misread, misremembered, or misunderstood what was written there.
"Franchise Timeline
At the time of the movie’s premiere, both the Dragon Ball manga and Dragon Ball Z TV series were in the beginning of the Artificial Humans story arc. In the manga, Piccolo is in the midst of confronting imperfect Cell in Ginger town and learning as much as he can about their new foe, whereas in the animated adaptation the newly transformed Super Saiyan Vegeta has just handily defeated No. 19 and No. 20 (Gero) flees back to his laboratory."
No it doesn't. This is information on when the movie came out in regards to when it came out in Japanese cinemas relative to the episodes of the anime & chapters of the manga. What I was saying was that the timeline is all kinds of fucked up because nothing about the movie makes any sense when you try to fit it into the show's timeline.
1. Dende is guardian, but Goku & Gohan hadn't trained in the Time Chamber, evident by Gohan still being as small as he was before that, he can't go Super Saiyan, & he still has long hair.
2. If the Androids are still around (like they logically should be) given that evidence points to this movie taking place before Cell absorbed 17 & 18, they'd be terrorizing the Earth & the gang wouldn't let that happen just to go to New Namek.
3. It can't happen beforehand because Vegeta shows he can go Super Saiyan.

All you needed to do was scroll down the page a little longer. Please read the entire page next time:

From Goku’s mark-less dōgi, to Dende being God and Vegeta transforming into a Super Saiyan, it can be inferred that this is an event from between when the Cell Games were announced and their opening.
— “Dragon Ball Daizenshuu 6: Movies & TV Specials” (p. 88)

[MasenkoHA]

Goku is the only one who sees SS Vegeta do if you want to it takes place about a month before the Android arc and Dende is visiting.

Super Goku would have totally forgot where new Namek was.

Unfortunately the movie shoots itself in the foot by having Mr.Pop address Dende as Kami-sama (the manga only recently had Kami and Piccolo remerge so presumably Toriyama told Toei his plans for Dende or Toei made a good guess). Because of this it can't take place before the Android saga where it otherwise could have fit snugly into.

It also can't take place before the Cell Games no matter how much fans want to force it to because Gohan has his early Android saga look and clearly can't turn Super Saiyan and neither he nor Goku are rocking the Super Saiyan casual look they were doing during the Cell Games wait.

Movies 5, 9, and 13 are the only ones that even kind of work into continuity (it helps being produced and released during their respective eras) and even then you do have to make some handwaves.

[miguelnuva1]

Goku is the only one who sees SS Vegeta do if you want to it takes place about a month before the Android arc and Dende is visiting.

Super Goku would have totally forgot where new Namek was.

Unfortunately the movie shoots itself in the foot by having Mr.Pop address Dende as Kami-sama (the manga only recently had Kami and Piccolo remerge so presumably Toriyama told Toei his plans for Dende or Toei made a good guess). Because of this it can't take place before the Android saga where it otherwise could have fit snugly into.

It also can't take place before the Cell Games no matter how much fans want to force it to because Gohan has his early Android saga look and clearly can't turn Super Saiyan and neither he nor Goku are rocking the Super Saiyan casual look they were doing during the Cell Games wait.

Movies 5, 9, and 13 are the only ones that even kind of work into continuity (it helps being produced and released during their respective eras) and even then you do have to make some handwaves.

I agree. Wasn't arguing for M6 just playing devil's advocate.

5. 9 and 13 are the only movies I ever argued could fit into the anime timeline.

In M1 I guess Krillin forgot he saw Gohan is how the anime fits that in.

[Scsigs]

As I said before, Movie 6 has too many weird discrepancies to place in any definitive place because too many things are out of sync with the main timeline. Even IF it's supposed to take place in the week before the Cell Games, there are several things that I pointed out that make that impossible. Hell, Movie 7 has more of a claim to taking place there & it's my theory that it was originally supposed to take place after the defeat of Cell, but the writers predicted the wrong outcomes of Goku surviving it & Gohan not attaining SS2.