Response to recent criticism

[Majin Buu]

I know this is me just throwing shade back, but I did not appreciate Vegetto EX's shade that my threads are driving people away from the forums.

I don't think you have any grounds to claim the shade wasn't warranted. Because:

Sure that thread he locked had ABSOLUTELY ZERO to do with Dragon Ball other than a vain hope it could air DB

1. You acknowledge the thread had "ABSOLUTELY ZERO to do with Dragon Ball". Honestly, I'm surprised it wasn't locked sooner.

and its his forum his rules, I agreed to them when I joined

2. You agreed to the rules but clearly didn't understand them well enough to post in accordance with them.

I love this place. Its the last great forum and Vegetto EX's scrutiny and quality control have much to do with its quality and survival.

You praise the quality control as the reason this place is "the last great forum" but complain when the webmaster all but directly calls you out publicly about your behavior in the name of enforcing that quality control.

Frankly, the way you frivolously create multiple topic threads (sometimes within a single day) comes off like how a content farm operates: You're creating a high volume of low-quality threads, many of which have flimsy-at-best reasons for existing.

But to have him basically say "Yeah, your posts make our forum look BAD and scare people off." is not something I will just hear being said about me and just take it withouth any response.

Is he wrong about that though?

Just about every single topic and discussion about Dragon Ball has already been had. Other than discussions about ongoing media, without me or not, every single thread is nothing but what came before, in another package, with different members participating. And I dont like this assigning blame on me and not on the fact that every single thread HAS TO HAVE something to do with Dragon Ball in some way, and by sheer virtue of lasting more than 20 years pretty much every single topic has been covered.

This is an excuse. If you can't find something on-topic to create a thread about and/or have to "wildly extrapolate", to quote Mike directly, in order to justify creating the thread, that's a sign that you probably shouldn't create the thread.

My threads are dumb, but I put a lot of effort into them.

The latter doesn't matter much if the former is the result.

I stopped making dumb stuff just for its sake

The fact that you were doing this to begin with is a problem.

and I really get it must be tiring to deal with.

If you acknowledge that, then why make a thread acting like Mike was wrong for throwing shade at you when his criticisms stem from the very behavior you yourself acknowledge is tiring for others to deal with?

This is not a rage quit, I love this place and everyone in it, I've never felt more at home than here. But I know this will probably lead to a ban. I really hope not and I hope we can just see it as a needed venting and cleaning up the air. I swear I will never ever make another post like this but I HAD to say it.

I'm sorry, but this is another excuse. No, you don't. You don't HAVE to post anything. You WANT to say it. You WANT to post stuff. You frame this as if you have no choice but to post when you always have the option of simply not posting.

Yes, I'm being harsh, but this "I know my behavior is a problem but it was out of line for me to be publicly criticized for it" stance rubs me the wrong way because it comes off like you think you shouldn't be held accountable for said behavior- behavior that, again, you yourself have acknowledged is an issue. Mike wouldn't have said what he said if there was no issue.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I know this is me just throwing shade back, but I did not appreciate Vegetto EX's shade that my threads are driving people away from the forums.

I don't think you have any grounds to claim the shade wasn't warranted. Because:

Sure that thread he locked had ABSOLUTELY ZERO to do with Dragon Ball other than a vain hope it could air DB

1. You acknowledge the thread had "ABSOLUTELY ZERO to do with Dragon Ball". Honestly, I'm surprised it wasn't locked sooner.

and its his forum his rules, I agreed to them when I joined

2. You agreed to the rules but clearly didn't understand them well enough to post in accordance with them.

I love this place. Its the last great forum and Vegetto EX's scrutiny and quality control have much to do with its quality and survival.

You praise the quality control as the reason this place is "the last great forum" but complain when the webmaster all but directly calls you out publicly about your behavior in the name of enforcing that quality control.

Frankly, the way you frivolously create multiple topic threads (sometimes within a single day) comes off like how a content farm operates: You're creating a high volume of low-quality threads, many of which have flimsy-at-best reasons for existing.

But to have him basically say "Yeah, your posts make our forum look BAD and scare people off." is not something I will just hear being said about me and just take it withouth any response.

Is he wrong about that though?

Just about every single topic and discussion about Dragon Ball has already been had. Other than discussions about ongoing media, without me or not, every single thread is nothing but what came before, in another package, with different members participating. And I dont like this assigning blame on me and not on the fact that every single thread HAS TO HAVE something to do with Dragon Ball in some way, and by sheer virtue of lasting more than 20 years pretty much every single topic has been covered.

This is an excuse. If you can't find something on-topic to create a thread about and/or have to "wildly extrapolate", to quote Mike directly, in order to justify creating the thread, that's a sign that you probably shouldn't create the thread.

My threads are dumb, but I put a lot of effort into them.

The latter doesn't matter much if the former is the result.

I stopped making dumb stuff just for its sake

The fact that you were doing this to begin with is a problem.

and I really get it must be tiring to deal with.

If you acknowledge that, then why make a thread acting like Mike was wrong for throwing shade at you when his criticisms stem from the very behavior you yourself acknowledge is tiring for others to deal with?

This is not a rage quit, I love this place and everyone in it, I've never felt more at home than here. But I know this will probably lead to a ban. I really hope not and I hope we can just see it as a needed venting and cleaning up the air. I swear I will never ever make another post like this but I HAD to say it.

I'm sorry, but this is another excuse. No, you don't. You don't HAVE to post anything. You WANT to say it. You WANT to post stuff. You frame this as if you have no choice but to post when you always have the option of simply not posting.

Yes, I'm being harsh, but this "I know my behavior is a problem but it was out of line for me to be publicly criticized for it" stance rubs me the wrong way because it comes off like you think you shouldn't be held accountable for said behavior- behavior that, again, you yourself have acknowledged is an issue. Mike wouldn't have said what he said if there was no issue.

I know this post is correct but this has already been resolved and I learned my lesson, I listened to criticism and admitted everyone was right. This is just you stirring up drama now. Can we please close the thread now? I know you are right but this is way too late and not needed anymore. I already admitted the thread was not kosher and I shouldnt have done it.

Also yes, the dumb threads are ABSOLUTELY NOT MANDATORY, I dont have to post anything. But I DID have to defend myself, sorry but I am not a robot, I am a human being and my feelings were hurt. Sorry, but people are not robots, you cant just compute an order or make a statement and I obey immediately and not react to it at all. Vegetto EX is awesome and I know now the situation really was unsusteinable, he's kind and would have never said anything if there wasnt really a problem.

[VegettoEX]

Once again breaking character to be transparent here: I've left the thread open for a while now as an experiment. It's all good fodder for what I mentioned in a previous "criticism" thread, where this is all open information -- people tell on themselves, the evidence is right here for anyone to read, and despite that what you ultimately see is people making up stories off-site about how "I was banned for liking Vegeta too much."

Everything that was originally stated that led to your lashing out was accurate then and remains accurate now. All you do is just keep proving why moderation and administrative action is necessary against you.

For starters, there's a total lack of any self awareness when it comes to creating, continuing, and expanding upon completely unrelated conversations... up through and including this one. Look how absolutely off-topic you go, and in particular ALLOW YOURSELF to go, simply for the allure of "LET'S TALK TV!!!" The topic creator, and several other ongoing offenders, just keep doing it. Over and over. And over again. And again.

There's also a total lack of any self awareness about what's been called out and supported by other members when it comes to the usual group of people that post, and post, and post, and post, and post, and it's only ever them, and they're the only names you read going down the screen. It is incredibly off-putting to both existing members AND potential new registrants. I've already said this, and I'm saying it again. I understand you may think there's a bit of a Catch-22 going on there with "well you need content so people will respond and engage, but if no-one posts then no-one will post"... but it doesn't always have to be you.

I have to be incredibly blunt at this point: this is incredibly frustrating. There's this post that was making the rounds lately (primarily with regard to Discord, but applicable anywhere) that says: "if you don’t ban based on vibes your server ends up full of annoying people everyone hates but can’t ban because they aren’t *technically* breaking any rules".

Please read and reflect on that.

You want people to be excited to see your name and read your posts. You don't want to drive people away. What can you do, and more importantly, what are you GOING TO DO, to accomplish that? I haven't seen a single ounce of true reflection or growth on that -- all I see is a constant flip-flop of chill vs. emotional outrage, and then it's right back to off-topic nonsense that the same three or four people then take and dominate the forum with it.

It's a problem, and at this point, our only recourse is going for those vibes.

(One last bit of reality that needs to be acknowledged: sometimes the moderation team doesn't know a conversation has gone off the rails for two pages, because we last read it on page one, it's only JUST NOW getting reported, and we haven't checked back in on the thread to KNOW it's BEEN derailed until that report comes in... because we see the names and no-one wants to read any of it... because *broadly gestures*).

[Majin Buu]

I know this post is correct but this has already been resolved and I learned my lesson, I listened to criticism and admitted everyone was right. This is just you stirring up drama now. Can we please close the thread now? I know you are right but this is way too late and not needed anymore. I already admitted the thread was not kosher and I shouldnt have done it.

I do want to explain this:

This thread completely flew under my radar when you first made it (I was traveling that week and scantly looking at the forums, plus I don't come to this part of the forum very often). I only discovered it because people are still posting in it so it showed up on the forum's main page (and a title like "Response to recent criticism" is very noticeable).

And more to the point: I've been wanting to say something like this about your posting habits for a while now and the reason I haven't stems from what Mike just talked about: You're not technically breaking any rules. Because of this, I didn't feel like I could point this stuff out every time without starting to come off like a hypocrite (I would effectively be doing back-seat modding after calling you out for doing the same with the the way you micromanage your threads) or a bully- and I don't want to be either.

So when you make a thread like this that's practically inviting criticism of your posting habits (that lack of self-awareness Mike mentioned), I'm going to jump on that the moment I become aware of it.

(One last bit of reality that needs to be acknowledged: sometimes the moderation team doesn't know a conversation has gone off the rails for two pages, because we last read it on page one, it's only JUST NOW getting reported, and we haven't checked back in on the thread to KNOW it's BEEN derailed until that report comes in... because we see the names and no-one wants to read any of it... because *broadly gestures*).

That's understandable given the situation.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I know this post is correct but this has already been resolved and I learned my lesson, I listened to criticism and admitted everyone was right. This is just you stirring up drama now. Can we please close the thread now? I know you are right but this is way too late and not needed anymore. I already admitted the thread was not kosher and I shouldnt have done it.

I do want to explain this:

This thread completely flew under my radar when you first made it (I was traveling that week and scantly looking at the forums, plus I don't come to this part of the forum very often). I only discovered it because people are still posting in it so it showed up on the forum's main page (and a title like "Response to recent criticism" is very noticeable).

And more to the point: I've been wanting to say something like this about your posting habits for a while now and the reason I haven't stems from what Mike just talked about: You're not technically breaking any rules. Because of this, I didn't feel like I could point this stuff out every time without starting to come off like a hypocrite (I would effectively be doing back-seat modding after calling you out for doing the same with the the way you micromanage your threads) or a bully- and I don't want to be either.

So when you make a thread like this that's practically inviting criticism of your posting habits (that lack of self-awareness Mike mentioned), I'm going to jump on that the moment I become aware of it.

(One last bit of reality that needs to be acknowledged: sometimes the moderation team doesn't know a conversation has gone off the rails for two pages, because we last read it on page one, it's only JUST NOW getting reported, and we haven't checked back in on the thread to KNOW it's BEEN derailed until that report comes in... because we see the names and no-one wants to read any of it... because *broadly gestures*).

That's understandable given the situation.

It REALLY hurt to read...but you arent a bully, you are right, as much as it pains me you are right, and Vegetto EX is nice, it hurt to read his criticism and I am glad you wanted to at least not bully me and do criticism in a more appropiate manner. You are not a bully.

[Saiya6Cit]

As usual I am late. I was not personally involved on it, but I do feel related especially on this part here:

Just about every single topic and discussion about Dragon Ball has already been had. Other than discussions about ongoing media, without me or not, every single thread is nothing but what came before, in another package, with different members participating. And I dont like this assigning blame on me and not on the fact that every single thread HAS TO HAVE something to do with Dragon Ball in some way, and by sheer virtue of lasting more than 20 years pretty much every single topic has been covered.

My threads are dumb, but I put a lot of effort into them

I also went through something similar when I was told on the necroposting. It feels awful not being able to comment on old posts. I imagine some new members could feel the same way. Which makes me wonder: what is expected from us to post about? Is it only on new stuff going on from the dragon ball official producers? Isn't twitter made for that? We don't even have a way to upvote(like) or downvote(dislike) people's comments. What does kanzenshuu offer that is different from any other DB place (including discord) where we can do what we like the most: Talk about Dragon Ball?

I believe this is the best place around for DB fans as it is made by old school dedicated fans. It serves as a great complillation of data. The questions remain: What are we offering as a community currently? How can we attract new registrants and have them to enjoy and stay in the place?

[GTx10]

As usual I am late. I was not personally involved on it, but I do feel related especially on this part here:

Just about every single topic and discussion about Dragon Ball has already been had. Other than discussions about ongoing media, without me or not, every single thread is nothing but what came before, in another package, with different members participating. And I dont like this assigning blame on me and not on the fact that every single thread HAS TO HAVE something to do with Dragon Ball in some way, and by sheer virtue of lasting more than 20 years pretty much every single topic has been covered.

My threads are dumb, but I put a lot of effort into them

I also went through something similar when I was told on the necroposting. It feels awful not being able to comment on old posts. I imagine some new members could feel the same way. Which makes me wonder: what is expected from us to post about? Is it only on new stuff going on from the dragon ball official producers? Isn't twitter made for that? We don't even have a way to upvote(like) or downvote(dislike) people's comments. What does kanzenshuu offer that is different from any other DB place (including discord) where we can do what we like the most: Talk about Dragon Ball?

I believe this is the best place around for DB fans as it is made by old school dedicated fans. It serves as a great complillation of data. The questions remain: What are we offering as a community currently? How can we attract new registrants and have them to enjoy and stay in the place?

This is a fair point. Outside of some Japanese sources translated into English what else is here to bring in new blood? I'm still waiting for the "wiki" to materialize personally lol. (Or at least the International DBZ Kai TFC episode guide to be more in depth like the other versions of the show are) To be fair, the discussions here while a little to far leaning in some directions for my taste are way better than anything on Twitter. Reddit has a bit more openness to different talks even if repetitive at times.

Maybe the site can reach out to more fans by touching upon certain dubs some more? Perhaps a honest deep dive into the Funi Dub or the Saban era days Dub to start? Then work our way to the Spanish dub or whatever. Mike you want me to compare the JPN Dub and Funi Uncut Dub and document it for the site?

I'll do it in my free time if that helps. Make it a page on the main site or something? I'm throwing ideas at the wall, somebody throw me a life line here!

[TechExpert2021]

This is a fair point. Outside of some Japanese sources translated into English what else is here to bring in new blood? I'm still waiting for the "wiki" to materialize personally lol. (Or at least the International DBZ Kai TFC episode guide to be more in depth like the other versions of the show are) To be fair, the discussions here while a little to far leaning in some directions for my taste are way better than anything on Twitter. Reddit has a bit more openness to different talks even if repetitive at times.

Same here. I think the new Kanzenshuu DB wiki should be launched by now to the public. I hope it serves as a replacement for the already existing Dragon Ball Wiki on Fandom (which mostly caters to the majority of the English-speaking DB fanbase).

Maybe the site can reach out to more fans by touching upon certain dubs some more? Perhaps a honest deep dive into the Funi Dub or the Saban era days Dub to start? Then work our way to the Spanish dub or whatever. Mike you want me to compare the JPN Dub and Funi Uncut Dub and document it for the site?

Is it like we're gonna do another unfair sub vs. dub (or a dub vs. dub) debate?

[Cure Dragon 255]

This is a fair point. Outside of some Japanese sources translated into English what else is here to bring in new blood? I'm still waiting for the "wiki" to materialize personally lol. (Or at least the International DBZ Kai TFC episode guide to be more in depth like the other versions of the show are) To be fair, the discussions here while a little to far leaning in some directions for my taste are way better than anything on Twitter. Reddit has a bit more openness to different talks even if repetitive at times.

Same here. I think the new Kanzenshuu DB wiki should be launched by now to the public. I hope it serves as a replacement for the already existing Dragon Ball Wiki on Fandom (which mostly caters to the majority of the English-speaking DB fanbase).

Maybe the site can reach out to more fans by touching upon certain dubs some more? Perhaps a honest deep dive into the Funi Dub or the Saban era days Dub to start? Then work our way to the Spanish dub or whatever. Mike you want me to compare the JPN Dub and Funi Uncut Dub and document it for the site?

Is it like we're gonna do another unfair sub vs. dub (or a dub vs. dub) debate?

Its not unfair, if everyone is polite, and everyone sticks to facts I dont see any unfairness at all.

[Saiya6Cit]

Maybe the site can reach out to more fans by touching upon certain dubs some more? Perhaps a honest deep dive into the Funi Dub or the Saban era days Dub to start? Then work our way to the Spanish dub or whatever. Mike you want me to compare the JPN Dub and Funi Uncut Dub and document it for the site?

Thank you for bringing up the Dub topic.
Somebody here posted that talking about it is not... how was it?... oh, I found it! Someome named "Rafa fast" said

when you talk about dubs or airings, you're not talking about Dragon Ball, you're talking about the work of a company and other people that just aren't involved in the series’ production.

I differ.

Unless a person speaks Japanese as a native language and watches the show in japanese for the first time, such person's perception and understanding of the series is delimited by the version the person gets in contact with. To dub a series means getting involved with its production for that sector of population. They would certainly not watch the show if it was in Japanese. Period.

There are subtle differences even in the same language when you compare DBZ to DB Kai, let alone from one language to another. The fact that Goku does not have a high pitched voice in dub vs the original release can also make a difference in the way a character is perceived by the audience.

That might not be worthy of discussion for everybody but many people share an interest for dubs, adaptations and translations not only ftom the series but also the songs. A sub forum for it would provide people a space they would appreciate.

PS. Kanzenshuu wiki is fair and necessary.

[Vegard Aune]

when you talk about dubs or airings, you're not talking about Dragon Ball, you're talking about the work of a company and other people that just aren't involved in the series’ production.

I differ.

Unless a person speaks Japanese as a native language and watches the show in japanese for the first time, such person's perception and understanding of the series is delimited by the version the person gets in contact with. To dub a series means getting involved with its production for that sector of population. They would certainly not watch the show if it was in Japanese. Period.

Yeah honestly, unless you're fluent in Japanese, you are inevitably going to be experiencing the series filtered through someone else's interpretation. Be that the dub or the Viz manga with their fondness for going way off script, the Simmons translation which stick far, far closer to the literal meaning but can sometimes veer so far in that direction that they end up sounding unnatural, or any number of non-English translations out there. One can certainly say that, at least in terms of the English dubs, the dub is a particularly inaccurate representation but... almost everyone on here is experiencing Dragon Ball through "the work of a company and other people that just aren't involved in the series' production. Whether you like the English dub or not (and I certainly don't), it is a major part of the franchise's identity outside of Japan.

[GTx10]

This is a fair point. Outside of some Japanese sources translated into English what else is here to bring in new blood? I'm still waiting for the "wiki" to materialize personally lol. (Or at least the International DBZ Kai TFC episode guide to be more in depth like the other versions of the show are) To be fair, the discussions here while a little to far leaning in some directions for my taste are way better than anything on Twitter. Reddit has a bit more openness to different talks even if repetitive at times.

Same here. I think the new Kanzenshuu DB wiki should be launched by now to the public. I hope it serves as a replacement for the already existing Dragon Ball Wiki on Fandom (which mostly caters to the majority of the English-speaking DB fanbase).

Maybe the site can reach out to more fans by touching upon certain dubs some more? Perhaps a honest deep dive into the Funi Dub or the Saban era days Dub to start? Then work our way to the Spanish dub or whatever. Mike you want me to compare the JPN Dub and Funi Uncut Dub and document it for the site?

Is it like we're gonna do another unfair sub vs. dub (or a dub vs. dub) debate?

Not a simple dub vs sub thing. But a fair comparison between the two. One that highlights the great and bad things about both versions. Plus it would be a great resource for fans to look up lines said by so and so character and whether it was a the Dub or sub line.

So a breakdown of the details I guess I should call it. That sounds fun to document to me.

[VegettoEX]

This current conversation does not appear to have anything to do with the original topic at hand.

You are encouraged to have on-topic, relevant conversations in any section of the forum, either in existing threads that cover your topic of interest, or new ones that you create yourselves. Anything relating to Dragon Ball or the extended world of Akira Toriyama is welcomed as a discussion topic on our forum.

Thank you!

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

That might not be worthy of discussion for everybody but many people share an interest for dubs, adaptations and translations not only ftom the series but also the songs. A sub forum for it would provide people a space they would appreciate.

On one hand I think that would only validate what I've been saying for a while, that discussions about dubs and channels/platforms the series can be shown keeps this forum alive, on the other I think it creates an unnecessary divide as if there wasn't already one between dub and sub fans. The latter goes against what this site was primarily set up for, which was love for and promotion of the Japanese version, which I am all for, but I think we're starting to see the forums can't survive on that alone. All fans need to be honoured, and honoured in a way that they are not alienated from the wider fanbase.

I also think the fact broadcast and dub threads have been conflated by many fans just shows there is a temptation to segregate fans who like talking about both from the wider fanbase and put them into that "filthy casuals" box. I even made a thread about Japanese channels that aired Dragon Ball to show this is not dub-exclusive fans trying to take over the forums but no one other than Cure Dragon 255 cared.

And yeah, publishing the wiki now would be a great idea. It would give fans so much more to talk about. How many threads have been made because of something someone read on one of the wikis or TV Tropes? If they posted because they read something on the Kanzenshuu wiki we know it would be true, accurate information and would lead to much more intelligent and sophisticated discussions.