"The Artificial Humans are too strong, it doesn't make any sense!"

[Lukmendes]

The strength of Android 17, 18 and 16 will always be jarring.

Especially since it appears Toriyama may have agreed with the notion that a mad RRA Scientist being able to straight up create beings stronger than Super saiyans didn't make any sense.

What I'll always find funny is that Gero though Goku wouldn't grow much stronger past saiyan saga, stopped bothering to check on him, but still made himself and 19 so strong that super saiyan is needed to surpass them, meaning that, despite expecting Goku to not become that strong, he became way stronger than base form Goku from Namek, who was hundreds of times stronger than saiyan saga Goku.

This is because initially it looked like #19 and 20 were going to get the upper-hand on the Z-fighters by using what they've relied upon most to defeat past threats: their mastery of ki. As by sensing the ki of their opponents and using ki to amplify their body's power they became immensely powerful.

#19 and 20 would circumvent through their energy being undetectable and being able to absorb the massive amounts of ki super saiyans had and make their power their own. Thus making the biggest strength of the Z-fighters their biggest weakness.

That could be pretty neat.

I wonder when exactly Toriyama was decided Gero and 19 wouldn't be the main villains, since before Goku fought Gero his heart virus signs were showing, and Piccolo notes the mountains are great the escape, so was it by that point already? Or did he only plan the change after?

[lancerman]

The issue is that it disrupts the progression the story went in.

Dragon Ball essentially starts with Goku trying to become the strongest. His first real skill check is his inability to beat his master. Eventually by the next tournament he has surpassed his master and now his real roadblock is the current best fighter in their prime on Earth (Tenshinhan). Then Goku gets stronger than that and now he's up against the biggest monster the Earth has ever faced in it's history supposedly in Piccolo. He barely beats him once and then defeaths Piccolo Jr at the tournament.

At that point in the series, Goku has surpassed every earthly benchmark and is considered the strongest on the planet. So the next thing the story does is take us to extraterrestrial threats. The Saiyans arrive and show that Goku is part of some super race that is amongst the most dangerous in the universe and that Goku, even with the tremendous power he's acquired on Earth, is really just sort of a runt of the litter by comparison. Then Vegeta who is the pinnacle of the Saiyans becomes his next check. Then in the next arc Goku surpasses him and we meet this emperor who is supposed to be the strongest in the universe and Goku achieves some legendary state to overcome him and is the strongest in the universe.

If they went straight to the Boo arc and went to a threat that was almost primeval in nature and a threat to even the gods, you would have kept the natural progression.

The Artificial Humans/Androids throw all of that off by basically saying "oh some guy on Earth who the last time he was relevant built something that would have been beat by almost everyone I mentioned was able to create these robots that surpass all these legendary opponents.

Like put it this way, I can buy that Dr. Briefs can use prior alien tech and advancement and figure it out so that he can replicate it. I wouldn't have even minded if hypothetically the argument was that Gero had been tracking Goku and was able to get a bunch of the tech from Freeza's ship and his mechanical body and use it for research to improve his Artificial Humans. You could then establish that the progression was mixing technology with the strongest fighters around. But the story is that irrespective of the natural progression, Gero through sheer observation was able to make robots that could challenge guys who were training with gods and becoming extraterrestrial lengends. It just doesn't really pass the smell test.

[theherodjl]

When you think about it, the Androids' power becoming so high just from Gero's prior observation is easily justifiable.
Gero had years to examine Goku's full strength rising from the triple digits of BP, to the five digit range after only one year of intense training in response to a great threat. He probably predicted Goku could surprisingly increase his BP by yet another two digits if he seriously needed to, and so Gero increased his calculations of how strong he needed to make his Androids from there. Given that the Dragon Team actually opted to allow Gero the necessary time & place to conduct his experiments uninterrupted, it's not surprising that he could make some serious breakthroughs after turning himself into a machine and pushing the boundaries of his tech.
While what Gero ended up producing might have seemed a tad overkill to what he thought he was initially going up against, you can't exactly fault him for wanting overkill against a target that harmed his family and thrown his plans of world domination into the gutter. The fact that three of his creations had no actual loyalty to him and disobeyed his commands shows how far gone towards Gero was at building power to kill Goku, as opposed to taking care to construct his creations to follow his commands without question.

[ZombieVito]

- Freeza claiming that he had never trained a day in his life (despite the fact that there's NO FUCKING WAY I believe he was as skilled at KI, a.k.a. MYSTICAL SPIRITUAL MARTIAL ARTS, techniques as he was on Namek just COMPLETELY naturally) and somehow surpassing the level of power it took Gokū and Vegeta over TWENTY YEARS to gain by training for a mere four months;

He was skilled? The guy couldn't even sense Ki and needed 3 extra forms to control his power. Also, Freeza surpassed Goku and Vegeta thanks to a new transformation. Without it, he only caps at base level. I don't see the issue.

- No. 17 being near the level of the God forms because he... worked as a park ranger for the last 15ish years after the Cell arc...

Goku double his power (At minimum) in 3 days just by climbing a tower and chasing a cat. I can buy the android with infinite stamina being able to reach SSB level in 15 years.

- Gohan slacking off on his training time and time and time again, to the point where he was ABSOLUTELY MANHANDLED by FIRST FORM Freeza, who was defeated by Super Saiyan Blue Gokū while in his Golden Form that was HUNDREDS of times more powerful... all of a sudden being ON PAR with Golden Freeza and SSB Gokū only a year later (during which he CONTINUED to slack off)... because he trained with Piccolo for a whopping TWO DAYS... (and lemme make this clear... I am NOT one of those people who hates nerdy Gohan. I WANT Gohan to be happy, and he's CLEARLY happy at the end of Z after realizing his dream of being a "scholar", whatever that means... but there HAS to be a balance. Gohan now after Super Hero has learned FOUR. FUCKING. TIMES. that bad things happen if he doesn't at least stay in shape in order to keep his friends and family safe. He does NOT love fighting like his father does, of course... but he's ALWAYS fought to protect his loved ones since he was a literal toddler, and it makes MUCH more sense for him to be at a place akin to Peter Parker at the beginning of Spider-Man 3, having found a balance between being a nerd and having a career and love life and always being vigilant and ready for any threat. And him CONSTANTLY reverting to being a pathetic, skinny, lazy bookworm is NOT it.)

That's Gohan's entire character from day 1. The little dude surpassed his father (Who has trained with the world's best for years) just by being scared.

- Muten Rōshi retconned to have secretly trained during the entirety of the original series, despite originally retiring and handing the reins to the younger generation ALL the way back in the 22nd Tenkaichi Budōkai, to the point where, despite having been POWERLESS to help against the Saiyans, Artificial Humans, and Boo... he was suddenly strong enough to be a participant in the Tournament of Power??

Firstly, we don't know when he started training again and second, it is said that his inclusion in the ToP was mostly because of his skill/experience. He and the humans haven't even surpassed Namek Freeza.

- Gokū attaining Ultra Instinct, at least in the anime, byyy... "breaking his limits" because he got hit by his own Genki-dama, something which PER THE ORIGINAL SERIES SHOULDN'T EVEN BE ABLE TO HURT HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE (and not even to mention the fact that, in the original anime, which both the Super anime AND to a slightly lesser exten the manga adhere to much more closely to than the original manga... Mr. Popo taught EXACTLY what Ultra Instict is -teaching his body to react on its own- to Gokū OVER 25 YEARS before the ToP!!). Not to mention the fact that it comes across as INSANELY manufactured and cheap, as Whis mentioned that it's an INCREDIBLY difficult technique to learn, and yet Gokū is able to attain it in a way that has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with what it actually entails;

I prefer it this way than the manga just having Goku obtain the form because he feels like it now? What?

Goku learning a difficult technique quickly is an issue now? Did you forget this?

- Hit increasing the limit of his time skipping by triple (if not quintuple, I haven't watched any of that since it aired in 2016, I just remember it went from like half a second I think to 2 or 3? Somebody tell me ) simply because... he was enjoying his fight with Gokū. Like... I GET that he's over 1000 years old and hasn't faced a challenge in CENTURIES... but it's still nonsense that he automatically gets WAY better, SEVERAL TIMES OVER, at a technique he's presumably had for CENTURIES... all because "Wee! I haven't had this much fun in a coon's age!!"

Saiyans can get better the more they fight, why can't Hit? Hit also says he never had a reason to try to get better and Goku did just that.

- A very similar case for Jiren in the final minutes of the ToP;

What? His Limit Breaker form? I don't really see the issue.

- Trunks randomly attaining a new Super Saiyan form (Ikari/rage) with ZERO foreshadowing or buildup and ZERO explanation that conveniently put him on the level of the God forms because plot, and not even to mention him somehow knowing how to use the Genki-dama despite having never being taught it, let alone the Genki in it being powerful enough to defeat Zamasu despite the human population having been nearly eradicated by Nos. 17 and 18 and Zamasu, even though a Genki-dama from a FULLY populated Earth was barely able to stop Boo, who was LEAGUES weaker than merged Zamasu;

Better than doing fuck all besides being a White mage like in the manga. The Genkidama thing is an asspull but if you can accept Goku learning a technique in an instant just by seeing it then I can sort of buy this too. Trunks doesn't know what he's doing and it's doing it instinctively with the help of the survivors. He also absorbed the Genkidama and that is not an addition when it comes to Toei. Fused Zamasu was also weakened.

- Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast being every bit as nonsensical asspulls that come RIGHT out of fucking NOWHERE, just like Ultra Instinct, Ultra Ego, Super Saiyan Blue Evolution, and Super Saiyan Rage;

All these have an explanation except Rage. Beast, Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego are foreshadowed.

- Broli going from being able to barely go toe to toe with NORMAL Vegeta, to being able to go toe to toe with Super Saiyan BLUE GOgeta, in just the span of a few hours, despite having ZERO real martial arts experience (but he certainly can scream a lot though, no question about that... )

That's his fucking gimmick. He grows as he fights at an insane level. It's Saiyan adaptation on steroids and it makes sense since he's the Legendary fucking Saiyan.

- Kale and Caulifla gaining Super Saiyan because they concentrated on a tingle in their backs, and then IMMEDIATELY unlocking Super Saiyan TWO just a few minutes later!! Like, YEAH... I GET that the back thing is a reference to, if I recall correctly, the solar plexus chakra... but like... that was NOT made apparent in the context of the show, leaving most casual fans with little to no knowledge of Eastern mysticisms to deride the scene for trivializing Super Saiyan (which, to be fair... had already LONG since been trivialized by Goten and Trunks... but they also were the children of men who had WORKED HARD to make Super Saiyan into their natural state. Kale, Caulifla, and Cabba were all first generation Super Saiyans, and yet Caulifla in particular unlocked Super Saiyan 1 AND 2 like it was nothing);

When are people going to stop bitching about the U6 Saiyans? They evolved differently than their counterparts so they are strong as hell.

The end.

- Gokū running out of stamina after first using Ultra Instinct, only to gradually regain it over the next few minutes... by continuing to use his many forms that tax his stamina, eventually leading to him just outright using Ultra Instinct again... oi...

I remember some user saying that this is an actual thing IRL. Maybe someone that remembers better can post it.

- The series going full One Piece/Fairy Tail/My Hero Academia by having literal POWER OF FRIENDSHIP!! *sob* power-ups during the tail end of the ToP... uuuuuugggghhh....

Saiyan adaptation or rage boosts. Nothing more.

- A random Namekkian on a random planet being able to create a set of TWO Dragon Balls that grant any wish that also don't turn to stone afterwards, all so Granolah and Gas can have quite possibly the most lazily written power-ups in the entire history of the goddamn franchise (which is REALLY saying something at this point)

They can't grant any wish. They couldn't make Granolah or Gas stronger than Beerus or Whis for example and they always had a cost if the user wanted to become stronger.

Iiiiii dunno, man... Cell somehow reviving back in his Perfect Form with access to Instantaneous Movement because his nucleus defied logic is NOT a pill I can swallow at all, but like... I kinda don't think that's quite on the same level as Zamasu literally BECOMING THE UNIVERSE a la Thanos with the Cosmic Cube and Infinity Gems all because his immortal physical body (that we were told was already breaking down because... his mental state or something? Gowasu was very vague and cryptic lol) was split in half.

Don't get me wrong, I have NOWHERE NEAR the amount of problems with that as I do a bunch of the other crap in the Gokū Black/Future Trunks arc (Super Saiyan Ikari coming out of buttfucking NOWHERE with NO explanation, Trunks knowing the Genki Dama and all the other problems I already explained that go with that, the godawful, nonsensical, contradictory Potara retcon and how it made the return of Vegetto, my favorite character in the franchise obviously, into a complete and utter meaningless waste, how annoyingly repetitive it became when Gokū and Vegeta went to the future, got their asses kicked, went back to the present to recover and train, went BACK to the future, got their asses kicked AGAIN, went back to the present AGAIN to recover and train AGAIN, went BACK to the future AGAIN, got their asses kicked AGAIN, and then only eventually got bailed out by Trunks's nonsensical bullshit and a LITERAL deus ex machina involving Zenō, etc.), but like... I feel like Cell returning slightly stronger than before due to some contradictory bullshit is still, when added all up, a WHOLE LOT less of a leap than "Guy who may or may not be immortal, it's left kinda iffy, gets split in half = HE BECOMES THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE" lmao

There's no Potara retcon since it was never explained how Goku and Vegeta defused.

I buy way more Fused Zamasu fusing with the universe that whatever BS Cell pulled.