"The Artificial Humans are too strong, it doesn't make any sense!"

[Vegetto95]

First of all, let me preface this by saying that this is NOT directed at anyone in particular, but it is at least inspired by the many times I've seen SupremeKai25 bring up that one of their biggest issues with the Artificial Humans arc is that, well... you read the thread title lol. And I just thought that might be an interesting thing to discuss.

Here's the thing... in literally the VERY FIRST chapter/episode of the series, we're introduced to Hoi Poi Capsules, which can contain practically ANYTHING inside their diminutive shells. Be it a car or a motorcycle in chapter/episode 1, or in the very next chapter/episode, a literal house replete with electricity, a functioning TV, running water, etc., despite (at least very seemingly) not being connected to any electricity or water sources like a house in our real world would HAVE to be. Those things defy just about every law of physics and common sense imaginable, and yet...

So let's take a look at the guy who created them. What else did he do? Well, the fastest ship he had invented by Age 762 (the year all the Saiyan/Namek stuff took place) would have taken, by his similarly genius daughter's calculations, over 4,339 YEARS to get to Planet Namek. And yet, after studying the tiny alien ship Gokū came to Earth in over 20 years earlier, he was able to build, FROM SCRATCH, a GIANT version of it that could make that EXACT SAME trip IN ONLY SIX DAYS!!! Oh, and he ALSO added a machine that could generate up to ONE HUNDRED TIMES Earth's level of gravity, with seemingly ZERO effect on its ultra-fast spaceflight (which REALLY defies all laws of physics)... AND HE DID ALL OF THAT IN THE SPAN OF A SINGLE MONTH!!! And it's even MORE ridiculous in the anime where he did so by studying Gokū's ship AFTER it had been blown to smithereens by Piccolo!!!

Oh, and let's not forget about his equally insanely brilliant daughter... NOT ONLY did she start off the series from, again, chapter/episode 1 having established that AT THE AGE OF 16 she invented a radar that could hone SPECIFICALLY onto the Dragon Balls anywhere around the world (and by GT, it could find them anywhere in the entire UNIVERSE, PLUS it was NEVER explained HOW it tracks the Dragon Balls and only the Dragon Balls... it just... can!!!)... BUT SHE FUCKING INVENTED TIME TRAVEL. In a post-apocalyptic future where the majority of the planet had been eradicated and human technology had greatly suffered as a result (she literally says it would have EASIER to make the fuel that powers the time machine and allows it to time travel had the Earth not been in ruins from Nos. 17 & 18's destruction sprees).

I dunno, man... in the face of all that, Dr. Gero being able to create a few androids and cyborgs that can match and even greatly exceed the abilities of a few martial artists who had trained for about 15-20 or so years to hone their mystical Ki energies to the point of being able to destroy planets is honestly pretty goddamned believable lmao. Especially when compared not just to all the other crazy science in the series, but also the ever-present crazy mysticism and flat-out comic nonsense.

Like, seriously... this is a series where there's a kindergarten that taught a talking, perverted pig-man and a talking, floating blue cat how to shapeshift into practically ANYTHING. A series where some green slug aliens have the power to create crystal balls that summon a giant dragon who, with some slight caveats, can grant almost ANY wish (or three), including raising the dead in defiance of the universes' gods themselves. A series where the main character has a monkey's tail and can transform into a giant buff monkey when he sees the light of the full moon, a phenomenon later linked to the fact that he's a member of a race of ALIENS who can ALL do that. A series where a short, fat, green, four-eyed alien mutant has psychic powers that allow him to STOP TIME (by holding his breath in the anime lol), and his commander can switch bodies with other people with a single word. A series where the final antagonist is a pink, immortal bubblegum demon who has an ABSURD sweet tooth... which he satiates by turning up to entire cities' worth of people into various types of candies and straight up eating them. Often ALL IN ONE GULP.

I could go on and on and on and on but you get the point... If you're willing to accept all, or even MOST of that... I REALLY do not understand how a mad scientist being able to create a few horrifyingly powerful androids and cyborgs is somehow SO unbelievably beyond the pale. And if you AREN'T willing to accept any of the above examples of how certifiably insane literally ALL of Dragon Ball is... WHY the hell are you a Dragon Ball fan in the first place???

Also... there are so many other aspects of the Artificial Humans arc that are problematic BECAUSE they contradict or at the very least GREATLY stretch the credulity of pre-established plot points. Dr. Gero creating the Artificial Humans in the first place contradicts NOTHING, and in the face of the OTHER batshit crazy science present in the series that I pointed out before, honestly stretches NOTHING. But compare that to stuff like, oh, I dunno... Cell's return after his self-destruction? You know, where completely out of the fucking blue, Toriyama demands that us readers accept that:

1. Cell actually has a theretofore COMPLETELY UNMENTIONED nucleus in his head that will regenerate his ENTIRE BODY as long as it survives;
2. Said nucleus somehow survived Cell's head getting blown off by Gokū's Instantaneous Movement Kamehame-ha earlier;
3. Cell learned Instantaneous Movement JUST by seing Gokū do it a few times, despite FIGHTING GENIUS Gokū, who as a boy replicated the Kamehame-ha, which took Muten Rōshi FIFTY YEARS to invent, after seeing it only ONCE, having to take an ENTIRE YEAR to learn Instantaneous Movement;
4. He automatically regenerated back to his Perfect Form, despite not having No. 18 inside him anymore, becaaaaauuuse... ?????????
5. He received a great big ol' power up from reviving from near death due to his Saiyan cells, which is the only thing on this list that actually makes any kind of sense as it DOES actually line up perfectly with what had been established in the series up to that point.
6. But see, it's totally fine, because Cell himself admits surprise at the fact that all of that happened, and that he "just got lucky"!! Yeah... sure, Toriyama, suuuuuure....

Seriously... you wanna talk about things in the Artificial Humans arc that ARE actually SUPER far-fetched and near impossible to swallow? Yeah, there's one for ya for sure lmao

[Grimlock]

3. Cell learned Instantaneous Movement JUST by seing Gokū do it a few times, despite FIGHTING GENIUS Gokū, who as a boy replicated the Kamehame-ha, which took Muten Rōshi FIFTY YEARS to invent, after seeing it only ONCE, having to take an ENTIRE YEAR to learn Instantaneous Movement;

Goku merely says it took a lot of work for him to learn that. We don't know the exact time it took for him to learn it. There's a timeskip of two years in there (AGE 762 to AGE 764), we should also factor in the time Goku spent going from Namekusei to the Yadorats' planet, the time it took Goku to go from the Yadorats' planet to Earth, as well as the time it took Goku to be able to transform at will, which Goku himself says it also took a lot of practice.

[SupremeKai25]

My problem is not with the Androids being too strong and making Frieza (the previously "strongest" and "unbeatable" benchmark) obsolete, My problem is with people (as per usual, the nostalgic DBZ crowd) complaining that Super has too much power-creeping.

I have no problem with the Androids being too strong and making Frieza irrelevant. I do take an issue with people complaining that Super introduces too many strong guys out of nowhere, because DBZ did the exact same thing, and these people are never willing to point out the same for Z.

In general, I take an issue with people accusing DBS of something and turning a blind eye to when DBZ does the same, out of childhood nostalgia (a benefit that Super clearly doesn't have for the time being).

Want another example? People complaining that Infinite Zamasu was an asspull when Mr. "I came back in my Perfect form because my cells learned 18's power or whatever idk read the script lol" is standing right there.

I'd like to see the context of where I said the title line, because I 100000000% guarantee you that it's in response to someone complaining about Moro/Broly/Jiren/whatever and how it's difficult to believe that so many strong guys existed out there.

[Vegetto95]

My problem is not with the Androids being too strong and making Frieza (the previously "strongest" and "unbeatable" benchmark) obsolete, My problem is with people (as per usual, the nostalgic DBZ crowd) complaining that Super has too much power-creeping.

I have no problem with the Androids being too strong and making Frieza irrelevant. I do take an issue with people complaining that Super introduces too many strong guys out of nowhere, because DBZ did the exact same thing, and these people are never willing to point out the same for Z.

In general, I take an issue with people accusing DBS of something and turning a blind eye to when DBZ does the same, out of childhood nostalgia (a benefit that Super clearly doesn't have for the time being).

Saying that those complaints are entirely due to "nostalgia" is just patently unfair. Are there ABSOLUTELY some stupid asspulls in the original series that feel like they happen because the plot needed them to? Of COURSE. But really... I can't think of too many that are REALLY egregious aside from Gokū drinking the Chōshinsui to power up for his fight against Piccolo Daimaō (which was a LITTLE better in the anime because he had to actually work for it both physically and spiritually, but in the manga it's just WAY too convenient and manufactured), or his battle power beefing up to the ABSURD degree it did in-between fighting Ginyū and Freeza simply because he was healed from his grievous, Vegeta-inflicted wounds in an older medical machine, or the sheer ridiculous extent to which Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Chaozu, (mainly in the anime where they trounce the Ginyū Special Corps) and ESPECIALLY Piccolo got stronger from training with Kaiō for like... four or five days, compared to Gokū's 158.

But like... compared to Super? I'm sorry, but when I complain about various things like:

- Freeza claiming that he had never trained a day in his life (despite the fact that there's NO FUCKING WAY I believe he was as skilled at KI, a.k.a. MYSTICAL SPIRITUAL MARTIAL ARTS, techniques as he was on Namek just COMPLETELY naturally) and somehow surpassing the level of power it took Gokū and Vegeta over TWENTY YEARS to gain by training for a mere four months;

- No. 17 being near the level of the God forms because he... worked as a park ranger for the last 15ish years after the Cell arc...

- Gohan slacking off on his training time and time and time again, to the point where he was ABSOLUTELY MANHANDLED by FIRST FORM Freeza, who was defeated by Super Saiyan Blue Gokū while in his Golden Form that was HUNDREDS of times more powerful... all of a sudden being ON PAR with Golden Freeza and SSB Gokū only a year later (during which he CONTINUED to slack off)... because he trained with Piccolo for a whopping TWO DAYS... (and lemme make this clear... I am NOT one of those people who hates nerdy Gohan. I WANT Gohan to be happy, and he's CLEARLY happy at the end of Z after realizing his dream of being a "scholar", whatever that means... but there HAS to be a balance. Gohan now after Super Hero has learned FOUR. FUCKING. TIMES. that bad things happen if he doesn't at least stay in shape in order to keep his friends and family safe. He does NOT love fighting like his father does, of course... but he's ALWAYS fought to protect his loved ones since he was a literal toddler, and it makes MUCH more sense for him to be at a place akin to Peter Parker at the beginning of Spider-Man 3, having found a balance between being a nerd and having a career and love life and always being vigilant and ready for any threat. And him CONSTANTLY reverting to being a pathetic, skinny, lazy bookworm is NOT it.)

- Muten Rōshi retconned to have secretly trained during the entirety of the original series, despite originally retiring and handing the reins to the younger generation ALL the way back in the 22nd Tenkaichi Budōkai, to the point where, despite having been POWERLESS to help against the Saiyans, Artificial Humans, and Boo... he was suddenly strong enough to be a participant in the Tournament of Power??

- Gokū attaining Ultra Instinct, at least in the anime, byyy... "breaking his limits" because he got hit by his own Genki-dama, something which PER THE ORIGINAL SERIES SHOULDN'T EVEN BE ABLE TO HURT HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE (and not even to mention the fact that, in the original anime, which both the Super anime AND to a slightly lesser exten the manga adhere to much more closely to than the original manga... Mr. Popo taught EXACTLY what Ultra Instict is -teaching his body to react on its own- to Gokū OVER 25 YEARS before the ToP!!). Not to mention the fact that it comes across as INSANELY manufactured and cheap, as Whis mentioned that it's an INCREDIBLY difficult technique to learn, and yet Gokū is able to attain it in a way that has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with what it actually entails;

- Hit increasing the limit of his time skipping by triple (if not quintuple, I haven't watched any of that since it aired in 2016, I just remember it went from like half a second I think to 2 or 3? Somebody tell me ) simply because... he was enjoying his fight with Gokū. Like... I GET that he's over 1000 years old and hasn't faced a challenge in CENTURIES... but it's still nonsense that he automatically gets WAY better, SEVERAL TIMES OVER, at a technique he's presumably had for CENTURIES... all because "Wee! I haven't had this much fun in a coon's age!!"

- A very similar case for Jiren in the final minutes of the ToP;

- Trunks randomly attaining a new Super Saiyan form (Ikari/rage) with ZERO foreshadowing or buildup and ZERO explanation that conveniently put him on the level of the God forms because plot, and not even to mention him somehow knowing how to use the Genki-dama despite having never being taught it, let alone the Genki in it being powerful enough to defeat Zamasu despite the human population having been nearly eradicated by Nos. 17 and 18 and Zamasu, even though a Genki-dama from a FULLY populated Earth was barely able to stop Boo, who was LEAGUES weaker than merged Zamasu;

- Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast being every bit as nonsensical asspulls that come RIGHT out of fucking NOWHERE, just like Ultra Instinct, Ultra Ego, Super Saiyan Blue Evolution, and Super Saiyan Rage;

- Broli going from being able to barely go toe to toe with NORMAL Vegeta, to being able to go toe to toe with Super Saiyan BLUE GOgeta, in just the span of a few hours, despite having ZERO real martial arts experience (but he certainly can scream a lot though, no question about that... )

- Kale and Caulifla gaining Super Saiyan because they concentrated on a tingle in their backs, and then IMMEDIATELY unlocking Super Saiyan TWO just a few minutes later!! Like, YEAH... I GET that the back thing is a reference to, if I recall correctly, the solar plexus chakra... but like... that was NOT made apparent in the context of the show, leaving most casual fans with little to no knowledge of Eastern mysticisms to deride the scene for trivializing Super Saiyan (which, to be fair... had already LONG since been trivialized by Goten and Trunks... but they also were the children of men who had WORKED HARD to make Super Saiyan into their natural state. Kale, Caulifla, and Cabba were all first generation Super Saiyans, and yet Caulifla in particular unlocked Super Saiyan 1 AND 2 like it was nothing);

- Gokū running out of stamina after first using Ultra Instinct, only to gradually regain it over the next few minutes... by continuing to use his many forms that tax his stamina, eventually leading to him just outright using Ultra Instinct again... oi...

- The series going full One Piece/Fairy Tail/My Hero Academia by having literal POWER OF FRIENDSHIP!! *sob* power-ups during the tail end of the ToP... uuuuuugggghhh....

- A random Namekkian on a random planet being able to create a set of TWO Dragon Balls that grant any wish that also don't turn to stone afterwards, all so Granolah and Gas can have quite possibly the most lazily written power-ups in the entire history of the goddamn franchise (which is REALLY saying something at this point)

Among MANY other examples that I've already gone on way long enough to list... I'm sorry, but that is NOT rose-tinted nostalgia goggles talking... it's just a simple recognition of BAD WRITING.

I dunno if it's just because, judging by your profile, you were in your early teens, and thus still very much a child (NOT an insult... someone who's around 12 to 15 is simply by definition a child) when Super originally aired, but again... I find blaming people leveling LEGITIMATE criticisms towards Super's terrible, horrible, no good, very bad writing squarely on the "nostalgia" of fans who are older than you to be very much a fallacious, ad hominem, bad faith argument. Are there quite possibly and quite likely some people out there where it really is just nostalgia that causes them to dislike Super in comparison to the original run from the 80s and 90s? Without doubt. But is that ANYWHERE NEAR the be all, end all, and Super in truth is every bit as good as DB/Z was (it's ABSOLUTELY not lmao), and ANYONE who disagrees is merely blinded by nostalgia? Yeah... what do you think?

Want another example? People complaining that Infinite Zamasu was an asspull when Mr. "I came back in my Perfect form because my cells learned 18's power or whatever idk read the script lol" is standing right there.

Iiiiii dunno, man... Cell somehow reviving back in his Perfect Form with access to Instantaneous Movement because his nucleus defied logic is NOT a pill I can swallow at all, but like... I kinda don't think that's quite on the same level as Zamasu literally BECOMING THE UNIVERSE a la Thanos with the Cosmic Cube and Infinity Gems all because his immortal physical body (that we were told was already breaking down because... his mental state or something? Gowasu was very vague and cryptic lol) was split in half.

Don't get me wrong, I have NOWHERE NEAR the amount of problems with that as I do a bunch of the other crap in the Gokū Black/Future Trunks arc (Super Saiyan Ikari coming out of buttfucking NOWHERE with NO explanation, Trunks knowing the Genki Dama and all the other problems I already explained that go with that, the godawful, nonsensical, contradictory Potara retcon and how it made the return of Vegetto, my favorite character in the franchise obviously, into a complete and utter meaningless waste, how annoyingly repetitive it became when Gokū and Vegeta went to the future, got their asses kicked, went back to the present to recover and train, went BACK to the future, got their asses kicked AGAIN, went back to the present AGAIN to recover and train AGAIN, went BACK to the future AGAIN, got their asses kicked AGAIN, and then only eventually got bailed out by Trunks's nonsensical bullshit and a LITERAL deus ex machina involving Zenō, etc.), but like... I feel like Cell returning slightly stronger than before due to some contradictory bullshit is still, when added all up, a WHOLE LOT less of a leap than "Guy who may or may not be immortal, it's left kinda iffy, gets split in half = HE BECOMES THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE" lmao

I'd like to see the context of where I said the title line, because I 100000000% guarantee you that it's in response to someone complaining about Moro/Broly/Jiren/whatever and how it's difficult to believe that so many strong guys existed out there.

I'll see if I can find one of the times you brought the subject up. Might take a bit of searching, but I KNOW I've seen it several times (again, NOT getting on you for that at all, I'm just saying lol)

[Vegetto95]

Goku merely says it took a lot of work for him to learn that. We don't know the exact time it took for him to learn it. There's a timeskip of two years in there (AGE 762 to AGE 764), we should also factor in the time Goku spent going from Namekusei to the Yadorats' planet, the time it took Goku to go from the Yadorats' planet to Earth, as well as the time it took Goku to be able to transform at will, which Goku himself says it also took a lot of practice.

While all that is certainly sensible and likely, 1) it's still mere speculation as to how much time was spent on each of those, and 2) even then, there's no amount of "Well, see, um, ackhtually, it may very well be the case that potentially possibly if the sun turned blue on a Tuesday in July that something something" (NOT making fun of you, just being a goof lol) that will EVER make the nucleus thing (because it's only ever mentioned then and there, AFTER Gokū previously blew his head off) and the reforming back into his Perfect Form, without No. 18 AND WITH NO REASON GIVEN, make a damn lick of sense lol

And even then, Gokū still was DIRECTLY TAUGHT Instantaneous Movement by the Yardlats. Cell just witnessed him do it a few times. I believe four in total (rescuing Tenshinhan and Piccolo, going to meet him in his Perfect Form after getting out of the Room of Spirit and Time, the trick Kamehame-ha, and finally teleporting him to Kaiō's planet), so it's at least SOMEWHAT plausible that he could have picked up on it after observing it that many times (and actually being moved with it the fourth time), but it's still deeeefinitely a big stretch. And hey, in the interest of fairness... so is Pure Boo doing so after seeing Gokū use it once, let's be real lmao

On a similar note, I'm... mixed... on Cell being able to perform the Shishin no Ken in the anime when fighting Gokū since he doesn't have Tenshinhan's cells, but at the same time, Piccolo (who Cell does possess cells of, as we know) displayed the ability to do pretty much the same technique a few times in the anime (training in the episode where Gokū's old ship turns Gohan into an Ōzaru; when he and Kuririn both use it against Nappa, etc.), so it's... eh. Just more Tōei weirdness lol

[TobyS]

It's fucking weird.

If the androids had been first I wonder if like people would say

“so goku got so strong that he could crack planets that this super scientist had to make these artificial machine men to beat him!”

“and now you expect me to believe some random alien just showed up and is stronger than the best thing this army can create.... AND he doesn't even train?!”

“Or like the last villain was literally an evil demon who couldn't be defeated and was the evil half of a god and now some random alien who doesn't train is stronger what bs...”

It seems we have a hierarchy of
Strong guys
minor demons
The strongest guys
Artificial beings
The strongest demons
Ancient magical beings

It's all very arbitrary anyway who fucking cares lmao

[theherodjl]

I think that in context at the time, it might have seemed ridiculous that an earth scientist could simply create cyborgs with over double the power of a planet-destroying space tyrant's full strength just by tinkering with human body parts for a number of years, when it took the power of a legendary alien warrior to put down that tyrant. Nowadays though, said-legendary alien warrior is just the first step in an evolution of it's modern species, and it every fighter up until that point hadn't even cracked 1% of their full potential. DB has since established that anyone can become as strong as they want if they just keep improving, and the cosmos could collapse under their power if they decide to stop worrying about maintaining existence. Toriyama may or may not have intended on it getting this far, but it is what it is. I'm not complaining when we're getting more DB.

[super michael]

Bulma did invent a device to shrink the user, which is a incredible device.

Dr Gero did try to modify the user ki, so no one can detect them. Then he did invent some technology to absorb other ki by grabbing their opponent or absorbing ki. Later on they created something that give the user unlimited stamina.

Dr Gero might not have seen what happens after the Saiyan Saga, but the spy bot record everything from when Goku was a kid, until Freeza was killed on earth. The only part they don't have record on is on Planet Namek.

[Grimlock]

And even then, Gokū still was DIRECTLY TAUGHT Instantaneous Movement by the Yardlats. Cell just witnessed him do it a few times. I believe four in total (rescuing Tenshinhan and Piccolo, going to meet him in his Perfect Form after getting out of the Room of Spirit and Time, the trick Kamehame-ha, and finally teleporting him to Kaiō's planet), so it's at least SOMEWHAT plausible that he could have picked up on it after observing it that many times (and actually being moved with it the fourth time), but it's still deeeefinitely a big stretch. And hey, in the interest of fairness... so is Pure Boo doing so after seeing Gokū use it once, let's be real lmao

Well, in the manga continuity, Trunks says he learned Taiyoken from Gohan even though Gohan shouldn't know it. Gohan saw it once, used by Kuririn when they were flying away from Dodoria, not an ideal situation to learn anything. To be honest, I don't see much issue here, it's just a shortcut for the author to do whatever pleases them. If just by seeing once or a couple of times is enough to learn it, so be it, I guess. See that it's common in these situations to have some leeway to go either way.

[super michael]

And even then, Gokū still was DIRECTLY TAUGHT Instantaneous Movement by the Yardlats. Cell just witnessed him do it a few times. I believe four in total (rescuing Tenshinhan and Piccolo, going to meet him in his Perfect Form after getting out of the Room of Spirit and Time, the trick Kamehame-ha, and finally teleporting him to Kaiō's planet), so it's at least SOMEWHAT plausible that he could have picked up on it after observing it that many times (and actually being moved with it the fourth time), but it's still deeeefinitely a big stretch. And hey, in the interest of fairness... so is Pure Boo doing so after seeing Gokū use it once, let's be real lmao

Well, in the manga continuity, Trunks says he learned Taiyoken from Gohan even though Gohan shouldn't know it. Gohan saw it once, used by Kuririn when they were flying away from Dodoria, not an ideal situation to learn anything. To be honest, I don't see much issue here, it's just a shortcut for the author to do whatever pleases them. If just by seeing once or a couple of times is enough to learn it, so be it, I guess. See that it's common in these situations to have some leeway to go either way.

Isn't it weird that Future Trunks learned Taiyoken from Future Gohan, when Present Gohan has never shown to be able to use Taiyoken. I am sure Present Gohan has seen that move more than Future Gohan.

[The Monkey King]

The strength of Android 17, 18 and 16 will always be jarring.

Especially since it appears Toriyama may have agreed with the notion that a mad RRA Scientist being able to straight up create beings stronger than Super saiyans didn't make any sense.

This is because initially it looked like #19 and 20 were going to get the upper-hand on the Z-fighters by using what they've relied upon most to defeat past threats: their mastery of ki. As by sensing the ki of their opponents and using ki to amplify their body's power they became immensely powerful.

#19 and 20 would circumvent through their energy being undetectable and being able to absorb the massive amounts of ki super saiyans had and make their power their own. Thus making the biggest strength of the Z-fighters their biggest weakness.

But then Toriyama's old editor didn't like #19 and 20 and so we got #17 and 18 and it looks like Toriyama just said "fuck it!" and simply made them stronger than super saiyans for the sake of simplicity and his original plans going out the window.

[Grimlock]

Isn't it weird that Future Trunks learned Taiyoken from Future Gohan, when Present Gohan has never shown to be able to use Taiyoken. I am sure Present Gohan has seen that move more than Future Gohan.

After Freeza saga, I think Kuririn used Taiyoken against Cell or was it Cell who used? Either way, I don't remember Gohan being present. No Taiyoken was used in Majin Buu saga, if I remember correctly, so I guess both Gohans couldn't have known it.

But yes, it is weird.

[Koitsukai]

Gohan witnessed the Taiyoken on Namek, right? vs Dodoria and also vs Freeza, although kinda from afar.
Nothing implies he never learned it, apparently he did but never needed it or cared about mastering it.
While Future Gohan probably needed to master it to escape the androids on a daily basis or so, be it by recalling what he saw or coming up with it on his own.

I cannot recall any situation where Present Gohan would've needed to pull Taiyouken to get out of it.
Maybe vs Fat Buu? vs Buutenks? of course, Toriyama forgets this stuff, but in-universe I can see why Gohan would not use it: A) he never got around to master it because his circumnstances were not the same as Future Gohan's. B) He knows it but he is not a great fighter, he is just strong, he chokes and fails to pull up even his own full power, he gets nervous, he doesn't think clearly, I can see this Gohan not being cool-headed enough to know how to fool Buu. I'm inclined to go with A, though.

TL,DR: the seed for Gohan learning Taiyoken is there, Future and Present Gohan's lives deviated greatly with no much detail on the former's to explain why one does the technique and the other does not, but with a little intuition blanks can be filled.

[TobyS]

The strength of Android 17, 18 and 16 will always be jarring.

Especially since it appears Toriyama may have agreed with the notion that a mad RRA Scientist being able to straight up create beings stronger than Super saiyans didn't make any sense.

This is because initially it looked like #19 and 20 were going to get the upper-hand on the Z-fighters by using what they've relied upon most to defeat past threats: their mastery of ki. As by sensing the ki of their opponents and using ki to amplify their body's power they became immensely powerful.

#19 and 20 would circumvent through their energy being undetectable and being able to absorb the massive amounts of ki super saiyans had and make their power their own. Thus making the biggest strength of the Z-fighters their biggest weakness.

But then Toriyama's old editor didn't like #19 and 20 and so we got #17 and 18 and it looks like Toriyama just said "fuck it!" and simply made them stronger than super saiyans for the sake of simplicity and his original plans going out the window.

Ehh if that was true he could have made 17 and 18 energy absorbers too just with a higher starting power.

Or just had them escape be weak but fodder for cell to eat.

So given he ignored those 2 options I think he already didn't care and why should he alien who doesn't train has no reason to be above killer machine designed for like 30 years specifically to kill strong guys.

[Jack Bz]

But like... compared to Super? I'm sorry, but when I complain about various things like:

- Freeza claiming that he had never trained a day in his life (despite the fact that there's NO FUCKING WAY I believe he was as skilled at KI, a.k.a. MYSTICAL SPIRITUAL MARTIAL ARTS, techniques as he was on Namek just COMPLETELY naturally) and somehow surpassing the level of power it took Gokū and Vegeta over TWENTY YEARS to gain by training for a mere four months;

Super has a lot of egregious power moments but I honestly think it's fine and believable that Freeza didn't train before, at least not at all seriously. Him and his whole army weren't at all masters of martial arts or in tune with spiritual techniques, and the strongest of them are described as being so due to being mutants. They can't even sense ki and have to rely on scouters. Freeza had to create transformations to suppress his own power because he can't control himself.

[Vegetto95]

Super has a lot of egregious power moments but I honestly think it's fine and believable that Freeza didn't train before, at least not at all seriously. Him and his whole army weren't at all masters of martial arts or in tune with spiritual techniques, and the strongest of them are described as being so due to being mutants. They can't even sense ki and have to rely on scouters. Freeza had to create transformations to suppress his own power because he can't control himself.

Is it POSSIBLE that Freeza knew such intricate techniques as telekinetically aiming and throwing dozens of large rocks around (and even a GIANT chunk of an island in the anime), catching and freezing Gokū in a ball of Ki that will explode if it hits anything other than his own body, or guiding discs of his own Ki around to chase after Gokū (something that it took Gokū, Kuririn, and Yamcha several YEARS of training to learn to do), all without lifting his lazy tail to train for a single solitary second in his life? I mean, sure...

But is it also a stretch SO large and SO long in the face of how Ki techniques and training in them had ALWAYS been depicted, both in regards to earthlings AND aliens, for nearly 200 episodes up to that point, that I feel I HAVE to call complete and utter bullshit? ABSOLUTELY lmao

The whole "we're mutants" thing always felt like a cop-out excuse to me when applied retroactively towards the whole Freeza's lack of training thing in RoF/Super. It makes perfect sense as a way to explain how he and the Ginyu Special Squad were so incredibly and abnormally strong naturally in the original series, but NOT to explain how they mastered such high-level techniques with such precision in lieu of training.

More than anything, it just comes off WAY more than anything as an excuse for "It's been nearly 20 years both in story and in real life since Freeza was killed, and Gokū and Vegeta have become HUNDREDS of times stronger by this point... since we're DEAD SET for some reason on bringing back Freeza for that sweet, sweet nostalgia money... how are we gonna have him catch up to those two in the first act of this mere 90 minute film? Oooh, I know!!" That's just lazy writing, plain and simple. And that's terrible. (Damn you, Lex Luthor!!)

[JulieYBM]

As a writer I understand the desire for a perfect in-universe explanation for every little thing, I think that it's ultimately simply more effective to not really focus too much on explaining stuff as long as you just write the story you want to tell. The most important part is always writing the feelings and the arcs of the characters, so if you can't tie that into the things the characters are feeling then don't bother. Lore and worldbuilding maniacs hyperfixate far too much on those things and inevitably miss the forest for the trees because what makes these stories work is inevitably simply the characters themselves and the relatability of them to the audience.

Answering why the Artificial Humans are so strong is a distraction until you have a human story to tell.

[Cure Dragon 255]

First of all, let me preface this by saying that this is NOT directed at anyone in particular, but it is at least inspired by the many times I've seen SupremeKai25 bring up that one of their biggest issues with the Artificial Humans arc is that, well... you read the thread title lol. And I just thought that might be an interesting thing to discuss.

Here's the thing... in literally the VERY FIRST chapter/episode of the series, we're introduced to Hoi Poi Capsules, which can contain practically ANYTHING inside their diminutive shells. Be it a car or a motorcycle in chapter/episode 1, or in the very next chapter/episode, a literal house replete with electricity, a functioning TV, running water, etc., despite (at least very seemingly) not being connected to any electricity or water sources like a house in our real world would HAVE to be. Those things defy just about every law of physics and common sense imaginable, and yet...

So let's take a look at the guy who created them. What else did he do? Well, the fastest ship he had invented by Age 762 (the year all the Saiyan/Namek stuff took place) would have taken, by his similarly genius daughter's calculations, over 4,339 YEARS to get to Planet Namek. And yet, after studying the tiny alien ship Gokū came to Earth in over 20 years earlier, he was able to build, FROM SCRATCH, a GIANT version of it that could make that EXACT SAME trip IN ONLY SIX DAYS!!! Oh, and he ALSO added a machine that could generate up to ONE HUNDRED TIMES Earth's level of gravity, with seemingly ZERO effect on its ultra-fast spaceflight (which REALLY defies all laws of physics)... AND HE DID ALL OF THAT IN THE SPAN OF A SINGLE MONTH!!! And it's even MORE ridiculous in the anime where he did so by studying Gokū's ship AFTER it had been blown to smithereens by Piccolo!!!

Oh, and let's not forget about his equally insanely brilliant daughter... NOT ONLY did she start off the series from, again, chapter/episode 1 having established that AT THE AGE OF 16 she invented a radar that could hone SPECIFICALLY onto the Dragon Balls anywhere around the world (and by GT, it could find them anywhere in the entire UNIVERSE, PLUS it was NEVER explained HOW it tracks the Dragon Balls and only the Dragon Balls... it just... can!!!)... BUT SHE FUCKING INVENTED TIME TRAVEL. In a post-apocalyptic future where the majority of the planet had been eradicated and human technology had greatly suffered as a result (she literally says it would have EASIER to make the fuel that powers the time machine and allows it to time travel had the Earth not been in ruins from Nos. 17 & 18's destruction sprees).

I dunno, man... in the face of all that, Dr. Gero being able to create a few androids and cyborgs that can match and even greatly exceed the abilities of a few martial artists who had trained for about 15-20 or so years to hone their mystical Ki energies to the point of being able to destroy planets is honestly pretty goddamned believable lmao. Especially when compared not just to all the other crazy science in the series, but also the ever-present crazy mysticism and flat-out comic nonsense.

Like, seriously... this is a series where there's a kindergarten that taught a talking, perverted pig-man and a talking, floating blue cat how to shapeshift into practically ANYTHING. A series where some green slug aliens have the power to create crystal balls that summon a giant dragon who, with some slight caveats, can grant almost ANY wish (or three), including raising the dead in defiance of the universes' gods themselves. A series where the main character has a monkey's tail and can transform into a giant buff monkey when he sees the light of the full moon, a phenomenon later linked to the fact that he's a member of a race of ALIENS who can ALL do that. A series where a short, fat, green, four-eyed alien mutant has psychic powers that allow him to STOP TIME (by holding his breath in the anime lol), and his commander can switch bodies with other people with a single word. A series where the final antagonist is a pink, immortal bubblegum demon who has an ABSURD sweet tooth... which he satiates by turning up to entire cities' worth of people into various types of candies and straight up eating them. Often ALL IN ONE GULP.

I could go on and on and on and on but you get the point... If you're willing to accept all, or even MOST of that... I REALLY do not understand how a mad scientist being able to create a few horrifyingly powerful androids and cyborgs is somehow SO unbelievably beyond the pale. And if you AREN'T willing to accept any of the above examples of how certifiably insane literally ALL of Dragon Ball is... WHY the hell are you a Dragon Ball fan in the first place???

Also... there are so many other aspects of the Artificial Humans arc that are problematic BECAUSE they contradict or at the very least GREATLY stretch the credulity of pre-established plot points. Dr. Gero creating the Artificial Humans in the first place contradicts NOTHING, and in the face of the OTHER batshit crazy science present in the series that I pointed out before, honestly stretches NOTHING. But compare that to stuff like, oh, I dunno... Cell's return after his self-destruction? You know, where completely out of the fucking blue, Toriyama demands that us readers accept that:

1. Cell actually has a theretofore COMPLETELY UNMENTIONED nucleus in his head that will regenerate his ENTIRE BODY as long as it survives;
2. Said nucleus somehow survived Cell's head getting blown off by Gokū's Instantaneous Movement Kamehame-ha earlier;
3. Cell learned Instantaneous Movement JUST by seing Gokū do it a few times, despite FIGHTING GENIUS Gokū, who as a boy replicated the Kamehame-ha, which took Muten Rōshi FIFTY YEARS to invent, after seeing it only ONCE, having to take an ENTIRE YEAR to learn Instantaneous Movement;
4. He automatically regenerated back to his Perfect Form, despite not having No. 18 inside him anymore, becaaaaauuuse... ?????????
5. He received a great big ol' power up from reviving from near death due to his Saiyan cells, which is the only thing on this list that actually makes any kind of sense as it DOES actually line up perfectly with what had been established in the series up to that point.
6. But see, it's totally fine, because Cell himself admits surprise at the fact that all of that happened, and that he "just got lucky"!! Yeah... sure, Toriyama, suuuuuure....

Seriously... you wanna talk about things in the Artificial Humans arc that ARE actually SUPER far-fetched and near impossible to swallow? Yeah, there's one for ya for sure lmao

It is incredibly scary how technology advances in our world let alone a fantasy one at such an extremely fast pace. This is a great thread.

[Cure Dragon 255]

First of all, let me preface this by saying that this is NOT directed at anyone in particular, but it is at least inspired by the many times I've seen SupremeKai25 bring up that one of their biggest issues with the Artificial Humans arc is that, well... you read the thread title lol. And I just thought that might be an interesting thing to discuss.

Here's the thing... in literally the VERY FIRST chapter/episode of the series, we're introduced to Hoi Poi Capsules, which can contain practically ANYTHING inside their diminutive shells. Be it a car or a motorcycle in chapter/episode 1, or in the very next chapter/episode, a literal house replete with electricity, a functioning TV, running water, etc., despite (at least very seemingly) not being connected to any electricity or water sources like a house in our real world would HAVE to be. Those things defy just about every law of physics and common sense imaginable, and yet...

So let's take a look at the guy who created them. What else did he do? Well, the fastest ship he had invented by Age 762 (the year all the Saiyan/Namek stuff took place) would have taken, by his similarly genius daughter's calculations, over 4,339 YEARS to get to Planet Namek. And yet, after studying the tiny alien ship Gokū came to Earth in over 20 years earlier, he was able to build, FROM SCRATCH, a GIANT version of it that could make that EXACT SAME trip IN ONLY SIX DAYS!!! Oh, and he ALSO added a machine that could generate up to ONE HUNDRED TIMES Earth's level of gravity, with seemingly ZERO effect on its ultra-fast spaceflight (which REALLY defies all laws of physics)... AND HE DID ALL OF THAT IN THE SPAN OF A SINGLE MONTH!!! And it's even MORE ridiculous in the anime where he did so by studying Gokū's ship AFTER it had been blown to smithereens by Piccolo!!!

Oh, and let's not forget about his equally insanely brilliant daughter... NOT ONLY did she start off the series from, again, chapter/episode 1 having established that AT THE AGE OF 16 she invented a radar that could hone SPECIFICALLY onto the Dragon Balls anywhere around the world (and by GT, it could find them anywhere in the entire UNIVERSE, PLUS it was NEVER explained HOW it tracks the Dragon Balls and only the Dragon Balls... it just... can!!!)... BUT SHE FUCKING INVENTED TIME TRAVEL. In a post-apocalyptic future where the majority of the planet had been eradicated and human technology had greatly suffered as a result (she literally says it would have EASIER to make the fuel that powers the time machine and allows it to time travel had the Earth not been in ruins from Nos. 17 & 18's destruction sprees).

I dunno, man... in the face of all that, Dr. Gero being able to create a few androids and cyborgs that can match and even greatly exceed the abilities of a few martial artists who had trained for about 15-20 or so years to hone their mystical Ki energies to the point of being able to destroy planets is honestly pretty goddamned believable lmao. Especially when compared not just to all the other crazy science in the series, but also the ever-present crazy mysticism and flat-out comic nonsense.

Like, seriously... this is a series where there's a kindergarten that taught a talking, perverted pig-man and a talking, floating blue cat how to shapeshift into practically ANYTHING. A series where some green slug aliens have the power to create crystal balls that summon a giant dragon who, with some slight caveats, can grant almost ANY wish (or three), including raising the dead in defiance of the universes' gods themselves. A series where the main character has a monkey's tail and can transform into a giant buff monkey when he sees the light of the full moon, a phenomenon later linked to the fact that he's a member of a race of ALIENS who can ALL do that. A series where a short, fat, green, four-eyed alien mutant has psychic powers that allow him to STOP TIME (by holding his breath in the anime lol), and his commander can switch bodies with other people with a single word. A series where the final antagonist is a pink, immortal bubblegum demon who has an ABSURD sweet tooth... which he satiates by turning up to entire cities' worth of people into various types of candies and straight up eating them. Often ALL IN ONE GULP.

I could go on and on and on and on but you get the point... If you're willing to accept all, or even MOST of that... I REALLY do not understand how a mad scientist being able to create a few horrifyingly powerful androids and cyborgs is somehow SO unbelievably beyond the pale. And if you AREN'T willing to accept any of the above examples of how certifiably insane literally ALL of Dragon Ball is... WHY the hell are you a Dragon Ball fan in the first place???

Also... there are so many other aspects of the Artificial Humans arc that are problematic BECAUSE they contradict or at the very least GREATLY stretch the credulity of pre-established plot points. Dr. Gero creating the Artificial Humans in the first place contradicts NOTHING, and in the face of the OTHER batshit crazy science present in the series that I pointed out before, honestly stretches NOTHING. But compare that to stuff like, oh, I dunno... Cell's return after his self-destruction? You know, where completely out of the fucking blue, Toriyama demands that us readers accept that:

1. Cell actually has a theretofore COMPLETELY UNMENTIONED nucleus in his head that will regenerate his ENTIRE BODY as long as it survives;
2. Said nucleus somehow survived Cell's head getting blown off by Gokū's Instantaneous Movement Kamehame-ha earlier;
3. Cell learned Instantaneous Movement JUST by seing Gokū do it a few times, despite FIGHTING GENIUS Gokū, who as a boy replicated the Kamehame-ha, which took Muten Rōshi FIFTY YEARS to invent, after seeing it only ONCE, having to take an ENTIRE YEAR to learn Instantaneous Movement;
4. He automatically regenerated back to his Perfect Form, despite not having No. 18 inside him anymore, becaaaaauuuse... ?????????
5. He received a great big ol' power up from reviving from near death due to his Saiyan cells, which is the only thing on this list that actually makes any kind of sense as it DOES actually line up perfectly with what had been established in the series up to that point.
6. But see, it's totally fine, because Cell himself admits surprise at the fact that all of that happened, and that he "just got lucky"!! Yeah... sure, Toriyama, suuuuuure....

Seriously... you wanna talk about things in the Artificial Humans arc that ARE actually SUPER far-fetched and near impossible to swallow? Yeah, there's one for ya for sure lmao

It is incredibly scary how technology advances in our world let alone a fantasy one at such an extremely fast pace. This is a great thread.

[Slangh]

Whenever things started making sense in the DB universe, Toriyama introduced a new concept to turn it upside down again, similar to how he handled power levels. The Freeza saga had battle powers reaching absurd heights and numbers. We were dealing with the strongest people in the universe. Then came the cyborgs who were even stronger. This was Dragon Ball at its most mundane, up to when Gohan went to high school. Then the "magical" aspect returned in full force with Babidi and Buu.

In the DB universe everything can exist. It's completely anachronistic.

Futuristic space travel technology alongside magic. And magic technology.
A dog king wearing a modern suit alongside an alien god who lives on a temple in the stratosphere.
Mundane city life and commercialized fortune telling with people coming back from the dead for one day.