Is Goku & 18 vs Super 17 the only time a woman helped in finishing the main villain?

[SupremeKai25]

Why?

Why do Luud and Six-Star Dragon "hold up", but not Ribrianne?

Because Ribrianne isn't a main villain (and for the record, I don't view Luud or The Six-Star Dragon as "main villains" either).

And I'd argue she isn't even a "villain" period, she's just someone fighting for her survival just like all the other fighters in that arc. The closest thing that arc has to "villains" IMO are Zeno, the Grand Priest, Freeza, and Jiren (anime version and only towards the end when he tries to kill Goku's friends).

No she's not a villain, that's why I called her an antagonist. I know that Jiren and co. are not villains, as they are not evil, but they are still antagonists, because they oppose the protagonists in battle. So they are included by this thread.

Ribrianne is clearly presented by the story as a major antagonist, the leader of Universe 2's team, and an important thorn in the side of the protagonists. Therefore, the fact that it was 18 who defeated her is important and noteworthy, and was certainly a spotlight of the Tournament of Power.

As a reminder: In the Broly movie, when reminiscing about the strong opponents he faced in the tournament, Goku recalled Ribrianne alongside Kefla and the Pride Troopers.




Ribrianne, one of the great fighters and antagonists of the ToP arc, who was defeated by Android 18. A spotlight in the Tournament of Power, and a high-point in Android 18's career.

[AliTheZombie13]

For the record, I don't consider Luud and Six-Star to be the Main Villains either, but I'll take what I get.
In either case, Dragon Ball sucks at female representation.

I want to see #18 breaking a guy's arm again and Pan single-handedly killing a planet's general, not see #18 defeating the Pretty Cure comic relief parody or Pan killing the one female transphobic allegory.

[JulieYBM]

While the example he brought up from the Universe Survival Saga doesn't hold up, SupremeKai25 bringing up that arc does call to mind something about it I noticed when I watched it that may or may not relate to this topic:

Universes 2 and 6 are the ones with the most prominent female fighters, but those female fighters are not the final fighters from those universes. Instead, less prominent male fighters end up being the final fighters of those two universes (With the Universe 2 males outright cosplaying as their female fighters to boot).

I thought that was a bit weird when I first noticed it. It's like making Kahseral, Cocotte, and Zoire the final fighters of Universe 11 instead of Dyspo, Toppo, and Jiren.

Can't have women being the last surviving members of a team in the tournament!

[Majin Buu]

Can't have women being the last surviving members of a team in the tournament!

Exactly. It feels like one of those "rules" like "Pan can be strong but not too strong".

[JulieYBM]

Can't have women being the last surviving members of a team in the tournament!

This. It feels like one of those "rules" like "Pan can be strong but not too strong".

Yeah, that's the thing that gets me. It's like...really? If they're going to be that important and that much of a focal point make their defeat the last hurrah of that universe!

[MasenkoHA]

Can't have women being the last surviving members of a team in the tournament!

This. It feels like one of those "rules" like "Pan can be strong but not too strong".

Yeah, that's the thing that gets me. It's like...really? If they're going to be that important and that much of a focal point make their defeat the last hurrah of that universe!

And really with Cabba getting the Champa arc to shine you would think they'd let Kale and Caulifla be last ones standing for u6

[JulieYBM]

This. It feels like one of those "rules" like "Pan can be strong but not too strong".

Yeah, that's the thing that gets me. It's like...really? If they're going to be that important and that much of a focal point make their defeat the last hurrah of that universe!

And really with Cabba getting the Champa arc to shine you would think they'd let Kale and Caulifla be last ones standing for u6

They also had the most focus and development of anyone not part of Universe 11. They really should have stayed in the tournament until everyone but Jiren and/or Toppo were left.

[super michael]

The only one that gave UI Goku trouble in the anime was Kefla and Jiren. Anyone else they would have lost to UI Goku easy.
The fact that Kefla was able to fight UI Goku is a huge feat.

Plus Kale and Caulifla has nothing against fusion, which is a good thing. It would be good to see them again.
Maybe they can have a new saga about going to Universe 6 planet Sadala.
Imagine universe 6 and universe 7 saiyans sparring against each other and teaching each other their skills, that would be fun.

[LoganForkHands73]

Can't have women being the last surviving members of a team in the tournament!

Exactly. It feels like one of those "rules" like "Pan can be strong but not too strong".

Eh, I think it's more likely that this was a result of the Tournament of Power being haphazardly planned. I wouldn't be surprised if Kefla and Ribrianne were meant to be the last stands of their respective universes (IIRC, Kefla was in the manga), but since a bunch of random stragglers remained, they had to hastily reorder things. I don't think it's a coincidence that both the Namekian duo and the "Man Squadron" were eliminated in the same episode, at the exact same time. I stand by my old theory that the Ben 10-lookin' Universe 3 guy Nigrissi was meant to be the key part of the Anilaza fusion (they look similar enough), but some animator fucked up and had Cabba eliminate him seconds into the tournament like a jobber, so they made the mad scientist Paparoni the lynchpin instead.

[JulieYBM]

Can't have women being the last surviving members of a team in the tournament!

Exactly. It feels like one of those "rules" like "Pan can be strong but not too strong".

Eh, I think it's more likely that this was a result of the Tournament of Power being haphazardly planned. I wouldn't be surprised if Kefla and Ribrianne were meant to be the last stands of their respective universes (IIRC, Kefla was in the manga), but since a bunch of random stragglers remained, they had to hastily reorder things. I don't think it's a coincidence that both the Namekian duo and the "Man Squadron" were eliminated in the same episode, at the exact same time. I stand by my old theory that the Ben 10-lookin' Universe 3 guy Nigrissi was meant to be the key part of the Anilaza fusion (they look similar enough), but some animator fucked up and had Cabba eliminate him seconds into the tournament like a jobber, so they made the mad scientist Paparoni the lynchpin instead.

It would not be an animator that did this. Lest one of the series directors and episode directors outright missed that a key animator just randomly included a character being knocked out early this was an intentional decision.

[LoganForkHands73]

Exactly. It feels like one of those "rules" like "Pan can be strong but not too strong".

Eh, I think it's more likely that this was a result of the Tournament of Power being haphazardly planned. I wouldn't be surprised if Kefla and Ribrianne were meant to be the last stands of their respective universes (IIRC, Kefla was in the manga), but since a bunch of random stragglers remained, they had to hastily reorder things. I don't think it's a coincidence that both the Namekian duo and the "Man Squadron" were eliminated in the same episode, at the exact same time. I stand by my old theory that the Ben 10-lookin' Universe 3 guy Nigrissi was meant to be the key part of the Anilaza fusion (they look similar enough), but some animator fucked up and had Cabba eliminate him seconds into the tournament like a jobber, so they made the mad scientist Paparoni the lynchpin instead.

It would not be an animator that did this. Lest one of the series directors and episode directors outright missed that a key animator just randomly included a character being knocked out early this was an intentional decision.

True that it couldn't have been an animator, but it feels like an oversight or miscommunication somewhere along the line. Nigrissi was given some hype in the preamble and even if he wasn't meant to be a huge threat, he was eliminated so off-handedly (alongside a random Muay Thai guy from Universe 10) in what could only have been a few frames.

I like to imagine that with such an enormous cast, Toei had a vague idea of who would be counted as pure fodder and who would be at least "monster of the week" material. Somewhere along the line, Nigrissi's design sheet may have been sorted into the former camp by mistake. It was likely intentional but I wonder why. Maybe they just couldn't figure out a good moveset for him?

[JulieYBM]

Eh, I think it's more likely that this was a result of the Tournament of Power being haphazardly planned. I wouldn't be surprised if Kefla and Ribrianne were meant to be the last stands of their respective universes (IIRC, Kefla was in the manga), but since a bunch of random stragglers remained, they had to hastily reorder things. I don't think it's a coincidence that both the Namekian duo and the "Man Squadron" were eliminated in the same episode, at the exact same time. I stand by my old theory that the Ben 10-lookin' Universe 3 guy Nigrissi was meant to be the key part of the Anilaza fusion (they look similar enough), but some animator fucked up and had Cabba eliminate him seconds into the tournament like a jobber, so they made the mad scientist Paparoni the lynchpin instead.

It would not be an animator that did this. Lest one of the series directors and episode directors outright missed that a key animator just randomly included a character being knocked out early this was an intentional decision.

True that it couldn't have been an animator, but it feels like an oversight or miscommunication somewhere along the line. Nigrissi was given some hype in the preamble and even if he wasn't meant to be a huge threat, he was eliminated so off-handedly (alongside a random Muay Thai guy from Universe 10) in what could only have been a few frames.

I like to imagine that with such an enormous cast, Toei had a vague idea of who would be counted as pure fodder and who would be at least "monster of the week" material. Somewhere along the line, Nigrissi's design sheet may have been sorted into the former camp by mistake. It was likely intentional but I wonder why. Maybe they just couldn't figure out a good moveset for him?

I kind of doubt it, considering that Tomioka Atsuhiro was basically in charge of the series composition. If I had to guess the scripting and such was structured around how many episodes they knew that they had left to work with and went from there. I know that most long-running anime will decide on what a series is doing six months at a time, so if I had to guess they just ran out of time based on what they wanted to prioritize.

[Majin Buu]

Eh, I think it's more likely that this was a result of the Tournament of Power being haphazardly planned.

Given Super's track record for poor planning, it's definitely possible that this was just a result of poor planning.

That being said, this just happened to end up being a thing with the 2 universes where most of the big guns were female fighters, and given Dragon Ball's poor track record with female characters (with some less ambiguous examples coming from this very arc to boot), I'm not ruling out the possibility that there was some unwritten rule at play with how these female fighters were handled.

[MasenkoHA]

Eh, I think it's more likely that this was a result of the Tournament of Power being haphazardly planned.

Given Super's track record for poor planning, it's definitely possible that this was just a result of poor planning.

That being said, this just happened to end up being a thing with the 2 universes where most of the big guns were female fighters, and given Dragon Ball's poor track record with female characters (with some less ambiguous examples coming from this very arc to boot), I'm not ruling out the possibility that there was some unwritten rule at play with how these female fighters were handled.

Honestly given that Super is way more toy advertainment minded than any previous Dragon Ball series and Bandai's notorious sexism it's not out of the realm of possiblity there was a push to "not advertise the female fighters so much because girls don't buy action figures and video games and boys don't want to play with girl characters"

[LoganForkHands73]

I think you guys are grasping at straws on this one. Caulifla and Kale were among the most heavily marketed new characters in Super, they had huge helpings of screentime, they received massive power-ups, and while fused as Kefla, they were the only fighters besides Jiren to push Goku into Ultra Instinct Sign, giving him one of the toughest battles of the whole tournament. Ribrianne was also pushed mightily, she was a recurring threat throughout the tournament, Toei designed an entire alternate persona for her (and her team) riffing on magical girl anime tropes, she was one of the only mortal characters designed by Toriyama so she was always destined to play a big role, etc.

Kefla and Ribrianne undeniably had the most epic, climactic showings of their respective universes, but because they didn't happen to be the last fighters standing (in the anime), there must be a sexist conspiracy to keep them down. Being the last ones to lose isn't such a great honour. I mean, would anyone here seriously argue that the Namekian jobbers made as big of an impression as Kefla? They marginally outlast them, but that's literally the only notability they have until Gohan and Piccolo defeat them. I'm not gonna deny that massive systemic sexism exists at a corporate level, I just don't think this was a manifestation of it. Stuff like Roshi's predatory antics in the same arc, I totally get the criticism of.

However, I get the impression that the directors really, truly were trying to be inclusive and affirming by showcasing these badass female warriors. There was definitely a bit of self-back-patting from the marketing team (and Goku, in-universe) about Caulifla being the first female Super Saiyan, finally smashed that glass ceiling, but there's something weirdly... endearing about it? "Hey guys, ever heard of girls? They're pretty cool"

I'd take that attitude over women being useless, irrelevant or completely absent, personally.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

I know this was a gag, but Arale defeated General Blue, and he was the primary (or, I guess reoccurring) antagonist for a while. She didn't kill him, but she was responsible for humiliating him to a point where the Red Ribbon bosses decided to just ice him.
It's really sad when the only time in canon that a female character defeated a big bad it was used solely for humor.

[Cure Dragon 255]

But that's A GIRL, not a woman. Girls are allowed to be badass and fight but as they grow older they are supposed to grow out of it.
Nah, just kidding.

[DestructoDisc]

Yes, and 18's writing in that arc is its only saving grace really. Way better than what Super has done with the character because instead of acting like a money hungry tsundere with inconsistent power showings, she finally gets some nice character development and we get more insight on how she feels about Krillin. Her conversation with Goku at the end of the fight is hands down one of the most underrated touching moments of the franchise's history. 18 shined without getting a crazy power up and used tactics to distract 17 so that Goku can land a finishing move. She played a a major key role to the story and everyone would've died if it wasn't for her. Idk how can anyone who cares about the character not enjoy her writing in this arc. Yes they probably could've dwelved even more into her inner struggles and how she has to fight with her twin brother who just killed her husband, but for what it was it was still great. Arguably made her one of the better treated characters of GT even, I just wish they continued using her in the following arc. It really made no sense how she just dipped out and was only ever seen again for a split second in one episode.