Does anyone else think that Vegeta joining the Dragon team was ridiculous in retrospect?

[MasenkoHA]

- I do think it was completely ridiculous for them to go from hating Vegeta and wanting him dead, to ranging from being positive about him (Bulma, Gohan) to even tolerating his presence to begin with (Yamcha, Piccolo, and all other characters, especially those who were killed by him) in such a short amount of time. I'm not talking about the time-skip bullshit, I'm talking about their reactions immediately after Namek was done with. During that portion of the story, Vegeta shouldn't have been treated so lightly.

Gohan was 5 and Vegeta just offered a solution to safely bring his dad back to life. His mom was also fussy about him having good manners. Him offering a handshake to Vegeta seems perfectly in character for that little dork.

Bulma's positive reaction is a bit much but she has also offered Oolong to come stay with her after the first arc despite hating him for being a pervert and she stayed with Roshi for extended periods of time in the Red Ribbon arc. Toriyama definitely should have done better to show us Bulma developing an attraction to Vegeta (even the anime went for she was drawn to a prideful man being broken inside iirc) but I don't think its too out of character for her that she was in such good spirits after making it safely back to earth for her to go "Yo you don't seem so bad now since you're offering ways to bring Goku back, wanna stay with me at my big ass mansion?"

-

I do think that the Dragon Team reaches parody levels of acceptance of Vegeta once the Boo Saga rolls around. Goku, Gohan and Bulma all expressing shock and disbelief that Vegeta would go and do the things he has done in the Boo Saga, despite the series having done practically nothing to convince us that he is anything but a mass-murdering man-baby is absurd. Hearing Goku, Gohan and Bulma all go "Hey, Vegeta. Don't tell me you're *GASP* evil!!!!" made me feel like I was watching TFS' "best buddy" jokes become canon. And no, before somebody tries to go "Well, he proven he had behaved in the time-skip." ... Show, don't tell!

He did show us though. Vegeta was actively a part of Trunks life, albeit it in that "jock dad wants his son to be just like him way" he was living with Bulma (and possibly married?) he was cordial with Gohan whenever Gohan showed up.

And we can't just ignore that 7 years had passed without him causing any harm or making any death threats.

[super michael]

Bulma gave Oolong a pill, so everytime someone says Piggy he has to go to the toilet. So Oolong could not double cross Bulma and Goku.

Master Roshi got beat up when he did his perverted things in Dragon Ball, which includes C18 squashing his head if I remember it right.

[Koitsukai]

For Geets it goes: a fucker screwing things up just to have some fun, sees his son get killed and gets an epiphany. After that he even apologizes for ruining everything, aids his rival's son who had shattered his ego a while ago, and spends 7 years raising his kid and even being not an asshole to others. His journey is bound to the fighting, that's were we see his issues and his progress.

DB isn't the show where you'll get spelled to a tee how a guy makes a 180° personality-wise. It similar to a play, where one sentence or situation infers way more than its face value does. A once space conqueror settling down is good enough.
If you want to see Vegeta taking Trunks and Goten to the swings, brooding at night on the roof or going on double-dates with Bulma, then it's neither the show or the character for that.
You might want more than that, sure, that's valid, but it's not the show's fault that your expectations aren't met, because the basic expectations for the story to be told has been met.

[super michael]

For Geets it goes: a fucker screwing things up just to have some fun, sees his son get killed and gets an epiphany. After that he even apologizes for ruining everything, aids his rival's son who had shattered his ego a while ago, and spends 7 years raising his kid and even being not an asshole to others. His journey is bound to the fighting, that's were we see his issues and his progress.

DB isn't the show where you'll get spelled to a tee how a guy makes a 180° personality-wise. It similar to a play, where one sentence or situation infers way more than its face value does. A once space conqueror settling down is good enough.
If you want to see Vegeta taking Trunks and Goten to the swings, brooding at night on the roof or going on double-dates with Bulma, then it's neither the show or the character for that.
You might want more than that, sure, that's valid, but it's not the show's fault that your expectations aren't met, because the basic expectations for the story to be told has been met.

No one tells Vegeta how much he screwed up against Cell and completely ignores how Vegeta attacked Future Trunks his own son for a stupid reason. Vegeta chose to listen to Cell over his son. Everyone acted like Vegeta did nothing wrong to him.

We don't need to see how Vegeta changed, so we don't need to see Vegeta with his kids on the swings an example.

It is fine if Vegeta gets chance, but ignoring the things he did wrong isn't good at all.

[tonysoprano300]

Moro arc Vegeta specifically sure, although that isn’t so much of a redemption as more of an indication that Vegeta has actually changed and is somewhat burdened morally by his past. I liked the idea of it more than the execution but at I was able to take that storyline seriously given that it was in the context of Vegeta being a morally upstanding character who has changed.

I think my issue overall with DBS Vegeta is that he’s still focused on his rivalry with Goku and still harbours some resentment towards Goku. It sort of undermines the supposed redemption he had in the Buu arc that was fundamentally about accepting that his obsession with Goku was holding him back.

People may have their grievances with his usage but , GT Vegeta is a near perfect depiction of him post Buu saga.

I meant that more in the sense of, DBS Vegeta is shown being a good asset and person. We don't need to go by the story's words that, "Oh hey, Vegeta behaved himself for like 10 years. That counts, right?" DBS also doesn't make the story revert Vegeta back to doing something evil and shocking to add pointless conflict to it. Which makes him look more like a liability and makes me think, "Why the hell do you guys still have him around?"

I agree, if Majin Vegeta happened in DBS then it would be way more compelling

.

For Geets it goes: a fucker screwing things up just to have some fun, sees his son get killed and gets an epiphany. After that he even apologizes for ruining everything, aids his rival's son who had shattered his ego a while ago, and spends 7 years raising his kid and even being not an asshole to others. His journey is bound to the fighting, that's were we see his issues and his progress.

DB isn't the show where you'll get spelled to a tee how a guy makes a 180° personality-wise. It similar to a play, where one sentence or situation infers way more than its face value does. A once space conqueror settling down is good enough.
If you want to see Vegeta taking Trunks and Goten to the swings, brooding at night on the roof or going on double-dates with Bulma, then it's neither the show or the character for that.
You might want more than that, sure, that's valid, but it's not the show's fault that your expectations aren't met, because the basic expectations for the story to be told has been met.

Maybe we just have different understanding of what DB is, for me the idea that DB isn’t the kind of show that will spend time showing you a character’s redemption is belied by the fact that we saw the series dedicate screen time(or pages) to the redemptions of both Piccolo and Tien.

I recognize that some may make the argument that we didn’t see huge redemption arcs for characters like Roshi, Yamcha, Bulma, Oolong etc. given that they are morally questionable in certain but the story itself never treats their actions as something to be taken seriously. When I see Roshi be a perverted old man, I know the series is not expecting me to be like “Holy fuck, this guy just attempted to sexually solicit a minor!”. Its expecting you to laugh at the ridiculousness in the idea that a wise sensei would also be a dirty grampa. The characters never react to Roshi as if he caused any real damage and nobody takes him seriously.

Vegeta is taken very seriously, the things he does are taken very seriously. The characters treat him as if he is living incarnation of evil, and the most tragic events of their lives happen because of him. And they despise him because of that. I know you didn’t make this point but I just felt that needed to be cleared up.

[ABED]

Having Vegeta from Super be the one to regress would feel inorganic. I get the idea that some would think it lands better as he truly changed by the time Super rolled around, however, it would be a regression in order to facilitate an arc. I like Vegeta's role in Super precisely because it's an organic direction for him after the Buu arc. At the end of the Cell arc, there are big moments that shows that he's not a completely different person, but he's making progress. Because last we saw of him he decided to not fight again bc of Goku's death, that doesn't speak to true lasting change. The foundation is shaky. It's like C4 without a blasting cap. It's stable, but with the right factor (or wrong depending on your POV), he's combustible. Giving into Babidi was his last ditch effort to return to the man he was. He used to be evil and just not care. Now he has things he cares about. I see at as him having to go through this awful step and hit bottom to finally realize he needs to be better. Much like Vader being considered redeemed in the world of that narrative, DB says in explicit terms that Vegeta is good. It's a step too far for me. I would've preferred it if he was just a man in progress.

That said, DB is a ridiculous world so Vegeta joining the team doesn't feel all that ridiculous.

[jjgp1112]

Gohan was 5 and Vegeta just offered a solution to safely bring his dad back to life. His mom was also fussy about him having good manners. Him offering a handshake to Vegeta seems perfectly in character for that little dork.

And the paneling makes a very big deal of the moment, too, showing Gohan walking up to Vegeta in a singular panel like he's about to do something big. You can parse that he maybe has the naive hope that helping bring his dad back is a sign that Vegeta is becoming a real ally after their ordeal together and his handshake is gonna be some grand peace offering that he will graciously accept and declare a truce and-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, better luck next time, dork.

[jjgp1112]

No one tells Vegeta how much he screwed up against Cell and completely ignores how Vegeta attacked Future Trunks his own son for a stupid reason. Vegeta chose to listen to Cell over his son. Everyone acted like Vegeta did nothing wrong to him.

We don't need to see how Vegeta changed, so we don't need to see Vegeta with his kids on the swings an example.

It is fine if Vegeta gets chance, but ignoring the things he did wrong isn't good at all.

What's lecturing Vegeta going to do? Everybody know he's a dickhead, rebuking him for the thousandth bad thing he's done won't accomplish much. And besides, we see Piccolo and Krillin ranting about Vegeta once again fucking things up when he helps Cell out. Piccolo says something to the effect of "You've doomed us all!" And plus, bigger picture - Vegeta wasn't helping Cell so he could join him in taking over the world, he was helping him so he can kill him in a way that will give him more ego points.

It doesn't really need to be acknowledged in any significant way. Vegeta sees Trunks die. Vegeta has a an epiphany and realizes he cares about his son. Flips out to avenge him. Apologizes for fucking things up. Gives the big assist to win the day. Sees Trunks off before he departs to the future. Even Bulma, the one who insisted to Trunks that Vegeta wasn't all bad is shocked he did all that. Seven years later, he's a father and husband - an aloof father and husband, but still - who's been behaving himself.

Pretty easy to see the through line, and like I've said 15 times already, seven years of being decidedly not evil is more than enough to convince people around you that you've changed (This is Vegeta's whole dilemma and why he relapses in the first place!!!!) and thus creates disappointment when you slip back into your old ways. Nobody forgot shit, they just thought he changed.

[AliTheZombie13]

I guess the big problem here with people disagreeing with how much of Vegeta's change is believable is the years-long time-skips.
Like, okay, narratively, he spent years living in total peace. However, in practice, we the audience see Vegeta screwing up and sabotaging the team 99% of the time, and the other 1% of the time actually doing something useful.

Like, okay, he saved Goku from #19. But again, he's also the one who threatened the team with death if they stopped the Cyborgs early.
He's the one who lashes out against Cell, but again, he's also the one who allowed him to become perfect.
He's the one who even stands a chance against Cell in the final confrontation, but again, he's the one who blindly rushes forward without thinking (Kuririn even yells at him that they have Dragon Balls) and gets Gohan's arm broken.
He's the one who comes up with the plan to stop Majin Boo, but again, he's the one who let Majin Boo awaken in the first place by letting himself be possessed on purpose. He's also the one who breaks the Potara, nullifying any chance he and Goku can win against Boo.

For every good thing Vegeta is shown doing, there are at least 10 other bad things he does that make things worse. Like, even putting ethics and forgiveness aside, why does the Dragon Team think Vegeta is worth keeping around when he has been shown doing nothing useful that wasn't already kick-started by him?

You can take the story's word that Vegeta has proven to be worth keeping around in vague years-long time-skips. But me as an audience member don't get to see that, so his worth was never proven to me when the moment came, making his final sacrifice seem hollow. If we actually got an arc before Boo, where Vegeta was actually being a team member and helping them without starting the problem in the first place, then I would buy into the story when it told me that he had actually changed.

[jjgp1112]

I guess the big problem here with people disagreeing with how much of Vegeta's change is believable is the years-long time-skips.
Like, okay, narratively, he spent years living in total peace. However, in practice, we the audience see Vegeta screwing up and sabotaging the team 99% of the time, and the other 1% of the time actually doing something useful.

Like, okay, he saved Goku from #19. But again, he's also the one who threatened the team with death if they stopped the Cyborgs early.
He's the one who lashes out against Cell, but again, he's also the one who allowed him to become perfect.
He's the one who even stands a chance against Cell in the final confrontation, but again, he's the one who blindly rushes forward without thinking (Kuririn even yells at him that they have Dragon Balls) and gets Gohan's arm broken.
He's the one who comes up with the plan to stop Majin Boo, but again, he's the one who let Majin Boo awaken in the first place by letting himself be possessed on purpose. He's also the one who breaks the Potara, nullifying any chance he and Goku can win against Boo.

For every good thing Vegeta is shown doing, there are at least 10 other bad things he does that make things worse. Like, even putting ethics and forgiveness aside, why does the Dragon Team think Vegeta is worth keeping around when he has been shown doing nothing useful that wasn't already kick-started by him?

You can take the story's word that Vegeta has proven to be worth keeping around in vague years-long time-skips. But me as an audience member don't get to see that, so his worth was never proven to me when the moment came, making his final sacrifice seem hollow. If we actually got an arc before Boo, where Vegeta was actually being a team member and helping them without starting the problem in the first place, then I would buy into the story when it told me that he had actually changed.

What are they gonna do? Tell him to leave? The only two people in any position to do so don't really feel too strongly abut him and it isn't really in their personality anyway.

" But again, he's also the one who threatened the team with death if they stopped the Cyborgs early."

And then Goku agreed without the threats, everyone else quickly provided their own justifications, and that was it. Bulma was the lone dissenter. They all wanted to fight the Androids. The realty is, it was Goku's call.

[AliTheZombie13]

I'd say Goku feels strong about him enough to threaten God himself only to make an entire-ass speech about how he's good deep down and has people he cares about in this world and is just having a mid-life crisis and doesn't actually want to be evil, rather than just going SSJ3 and killing his ass, but that's just me.

[MasenkoHA]

And plus, bigger picture - Vegeta wasn't helping Cell so he could join him in taking over the world, he was helping him so he can kill him in a way that will give him more ego points.

Yeah, it's a bit odd "Vegeta let Cell become perfect" is being used as evidence Vegeta was still evil. He was being a tool with too much hubris, not an evil terrorist. There's not much difference between Goku allowing Freeza to power up to 100 percent and Vegeta allowing Cell to become perfect. Yes, Vegeta was allowing 18's life to be taken but the dragon team was trying to have her killed so Cell wouldn't become perfect, so it's not like they valued her life either.

[Cure Dragon 255]

And plus, bigger picture - Vegeta wasn't helping Cell so he could join him in taking over the world, he was helping him so he can kill him in a way that will give him more ego points.

Yeah, it's a bit odd "Vegeta let Cell become perfect" is being used as evidence Vegeta was still evil. He was being a tool with too much hubris, not an evil terrorist. There's not much difference between Goku allowing Freeza to power up to 100 percent and Vegeta allowing Cell to become perfect. Yes, Vegeta was allowing 18's life to be taken but the dragon team was trying to have her killed so Cell wouldn't become perfect, so it's not like they valued her life either.

This is the first truly new argument in this discussion and I welcome it, there is only so much meat to this one sole discussion and I was afraid it had run its course.

[tonysoprano300]

And plus, bigger picture - Vegeta wasn't helping Cell so he could join him in taking over the world, he was helping him so he can kill him in a way that will give him more ego points.

Yeah, it's a bit odd "Vegeta let Cell become perfect" is being used as evidence Vegeta was still evil. He was being a tool with too much hubris, not an evil terrorist. There's not much difference between Goku allowing Freeza to power up to 100 percent and Vegeta allowing Cell to become perfect. Yes, Vegeta was allowing 18's life to be taken but the dragon team was trying to have her killed so Cell wouldn't become perfect, so it's not like they valued her life either.

If we’re framing it in the appropriate context at the time, Goku had just fulfilled an ancient alien prophecy that changed his very nature. King Kai and even Goku himself suggest that he’s succumbed to the most primitive saiyan instincts and that this isn’t the old Son Goku anymore.


The Vegeta situation is nothing like that, he was beating the fuck out his own son for daring to stop Cell from achieving perfection. He did this with full consciousness and lucidity. In context, Vegeta threatened to murder people for trying to stop Gero and now 3 years later he’s beating the crap out of his own son who is trying to stop Cell. How is that not evil?

[Koitsukai]

Isn't it a bit of a stretch to say he was beating the living shit out of his kid? he got him out of his way and when the kid stroke back he didn't even retaliate, he didn't do a Spopovich on Videl or anything. He was just a father slapping his kid for talking back.
Just like that empty threat after Future Trunks dropped the bomb and went back home, pure bla bla bla from the guy. No other character took that threat as seriously as the fandom.

Vegeta has done plenty of evil things to start putting in his naughty column the questionable but certainly non-evil stuff.

[jjgp1112]

Isn't it a bit of a stretch to say he was beating the living shit out of his kid? he got him out of his way and when the kid stroke back he didn't even retaliate, he didn't do a Spopovich on Videl or anything. He was just a father slapping his kid for talking back.
Just like that empty threat after Future Trunks dropped the bomb and went back home, pure bla bla bla from the guy. No other character took that threat as seriously as the fandom.

Vegeta has done plenty of evil things to start putting in his naughty column the questionable but certainly non-evil stuff.

Seriously, people are going overboard with the "He threatened to kill them!" At the scale that these folks operate that's no different from "I'll fuck you up." Like, yall are really trying to say that they only fought the Androids because *Vegeta* threatening Bulma when Goku and Tien were the ones that backed up Vegetas reasoning for lashing out on Bulma. They already know Vegeta can't do shit with Goku around so it's all just empty threats and temper tantrums.

"Vegeta beat the living shit out of his kid!" He kicked his 18 year old son out the way and then actually tried to talk him into seeing things his way. And when Trunks fought back Vegeta was like "Damn, lil nigga got heart after all"

[MasenkoHA]

And plus, bigger picture - Vegeta wasn't helping Cell so he could join him in taking over the world, he was helping him so he can kill him in a way that will give him more ego points.

Yeah, it's a bit odd "Vegeta let Cell become perfect" is being used as evidence Vegeta was still evil. He was being a tool with too much hubris, not an evil terrorist. There's not much difference between Goku allowing Freeza to power up to 100 percent and Vegeta allowing Cell to become perfect. Yes, Vegeta was allowing 18's life to be taken but the dragon team was trying to have her killed so Cell wouldn't become perfect, so it's not like they valued her life either.

If we’re framing it in the appropriate context at the time, Goku had just fulfilled an ancient alien prophecy that changed his very nature. King Kai and even Goku himself suggest that he’s succumbed to the most primitive saiyan instincts and that this isn’t the old Son Goku anymore.


The Vegeta situation is nothing like that, he was beating the fuck out his own son for daring to stop Cell from achieving perfection. He did this with full consciousness and lucidity. In context, Vegeta threatened to murder people for trying to stop Gero and now 3 years later he’s beating the crap out of his own son who is trying to stop Cell. How is that not evil?

Nobody claimed Cell saga Vegeta was dad of the year but he hardly "beat the fuck out of him"

I'm also not sure why Goku gets an excuse because "Super Saiyan" but Vegeta, who was also Super Saiyan, doesn't?

Hell you could argue going Super Saiyan 2 is what turned Gohan into a little sadist who was having fun with his prey but I think the collective agreement is Gohan fucked up and he doesn't get a pass because his primal Saiyah instincts kicked in?

And as its been said nobody took Vegeta's death threat seriously, including Bulma. At that point they all dismissed his bark as far worse than his bite.

[Zephyr]

And plus, bigger picture - Vegeta wasn't helping Cell so he could join him in taking over the world, he was helping him so he can kill him in a way that will give him more ego points.

Yeah, it's a bit odd "Vegeta let Cell become perfect" is being used as evidence Vegeta was still evil. He was being a tool with too much hubris, not an evil terrorist. There's not much difference between Goku allowing Freeza to power up to 100 percent and Vegeta allowing Cell to become perfect. Yes, Vegeta was allowing 18's life to be taken but the dragon team was trying to have her killed so Cell wouldn't become perfect, so it's not like they valued her life either.

Granted, there are people who take issue with Goku letting Freeza power up as well. The main difference is that unlike Vegeta (and Gohan), when Goku does this sort of thing it doesn't usually blow up in his face. Usually. Is it plot convenience? Luck? A skill issue? A better suite of contingency options (like the Genki Dama and teleportation)? Possibly all of the above. I do also think it's narratively important; that Goku is able to get away with these gambles only further encourages him to keep doing it, hence his recklessness escalating as the story progresses.

The funniest part of Goku letting Freeza power up is Kaio acting like this isn't the Goku we know and that it's "the Super Saiyan" taking over. Yeah, man, "the Super Saiyan" is making Goku act like Goku. Let me guess, it was "the Super Saiyan" that gave Piccolo a free hit during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai too, wasn't it?

If we wanna talk about actual "bad writing", look no further than Toriyama trying to paint things as Saiyan traits that are demonstrably neither exclusive to Saiyans, nor applicable to all Saiyans. Piccolo was also being "a Saiyan" when he had Gohan teleport him to Namek to fight Freeza. Freeza was also being "a Saiyan" when he decided to slug it out with Goku instead of blasting Namek a second time. Gero was being "a Saiyan" when he built himself a robot body in order to get revenge on Goku instead of just killing him in his sleep or something. Tenshinhan was being "a Saiyan" when he talked about wanting to test himself in 3 years. Boo was being "a Saiyan" when he was excited fighting Goku and was willing to wait to fight Goten and Trunks.

Might as well have told us through exposition that Goku has no arms, actually, and he never has had them, despite Goku being drawn with arms in that very same chapter.

Another example might be Vegeta harping about his "pride". Like, cool it guy, you're not special. All of these dudes are ruled by their pride. It's kind of what they're about. In effect it makes Vegeta give off the vibes of "man who has only ever met Saiyans meets martial artists of any other race": "wow, getting real Saiyan vibes here".

[tonysoprano300]

Yeah, it's a bit odd "Vegeta let Cell become perfect" is being used as evidence Vegeta was still evil. He was being a tool with too much hubris, not an evil terrorist. There's not much difference between Goku allowing Freeza to power up to 100 percent and Vegeta allowing Cell to become perfect. Yes, Vegeta was allowing 18's life to be taken but the dragon team was trying to have her killed so Cell wouldn't become perfect, so it's not like they valued her life either.

If we’re framing it in the appropriate context at the time, Goku had just fulfilled an ancient alien prophecy that changed his very nature. King Kai and even Goku himself suggest that he’s succumbed to the most primitive saiyan instincts and that this isn’t the old Son Goku anymore.


The Vegeta situation is nothing like that, he was beating the fuck out his own son for daring to stop Cell from achieving perfection. He did this with full consciousness and lucidity. In context, Vegeta threatened to murder people for trying to stop Gero and now 3 years later he’s beating the crap out of his own son who is trying to stop Cell. How is that not evil?

Nobody claimed Cell saga Vegeta was dad of the year but he hardly "beat the fuck out of him"

I'm also not sure why Goku gets an excuse because "Super Saiyan" but Vegeta, who was also Super Saiyan, doesn't?

Hell you could argue going Super Saiyan 2 is what turned Gohan into a little sadist who was having fun with his prey but I think the collective agreement is Gohan fucked up and he doesn't get a pass because his primal Saiyah instincts kicked in?

And as its been said nobody took Vegeta's death threat seriously, including Bulma. At that point they all dismissed his bark as far worse than his bite.

He beat on his own son for trying to stop the world’s destruction…whatever terminology is most appropriate can be used but that’s the thing I'm highlighting.

SSJ Goku gets an excuse because he just transformed and likely has no mastery over the power of the SSJ, unlike Vegeta. When the Cell arc comes, everyone in the cast has gotten used to SSJ. I'm just reciting what the story itself suggests. You can absolutely make that same argument for Gohan if you want to, it’s implied that he wasn’t himself after finally snapping.

Vegeta was a mass murdering psychopath who made a death threat to a woman who’s husband she killed a year ago, if Bulma had tried to stop gero its likely Vegeta would have stopped her(even if he doesn’t kill her). We have no reason not to take Vegeta at his word. He should also be on extremely thin ice given everything he’s done and once he lets Cell achieve completion, they have zero reason to trust him ever again.

[AliTheZombie13]

Are people really discussing right now whether Vegeta is evil or not during Cell?
"My heart is pure... pure EVIL!!!!"

Like... where is the ambiguity???