Does anyone else think that Vegeta joining the Dragon team was ridiculous in retrospect?

[Cure Dragon 255]

Are people really discussing right now whether Vegeta is evil or not during Cell?
"My heart is pure... pure EVIL!!!!"

Like... where is the ambiguity???

Werent you all about "Show, Dont Tell" until now?

[AliTheZombie13]

Werent you all about "Show, Dont Tell" until now?

I was... Vegeta has shown he's evil. Unequivocally. Without question. Without missing context. He's evil during Cell. That's what the story is showing me.

Why are you guys now trying to argue against that? Weren't you all "Vegeta is evil, they just don't do anything about him because he's stronger" until now?

[Cure Dragon 255]

Werent you all about "Show, Dont Tell" until now?

I was... Vegeta has shown he's evil. Unequivocally. Without question. Without missing context. He's evil during Cell. That's what the story is showing me.

Why are you guys now trying to argue against that? Weren't you all "Vegeta is evil, they just don't do anything about him because he's stronger" until now?

I am not on any side, if I am in any side I am in yours, but characters outright vocalizing "I am evil/good/neutral" is not good writing or showing instead of telling. But I am glad you explained.

[AliTheZombie13]

I am not on any side, if I am in any side I am in yours, but characters outright vocalizing "I am evil/good/neutral" is not good writing or showing instead of telling. But I am glad you explained.

If it was just that line alone devoid of action, it'd be bad. But Vegeta's actions throughout most of Cell do show that, yeah, he meant it.
I don't know why people are suddenly disputing that, but okay. Already said my pieces, ain't repeating myself.

[jjgp1112]

Are people really discussing right now whether Vegeta is evil or not during Cell?
"My heart is pure... pure EVIL!!!!"

Like... where is the ambiguity???

We're not talking about his moral character, we're talking about his actions and how they pertain to the Z crew, are we not? Nobody's denying that Vegeta is bad, we're saying that after Frieza, relative to Dragon Ball characters' standards, he's not doing anything but being a jackass and it's pretty clear that most people don't even really want him around anyway. But the only person who has any "authority" to "do something" about Vegeta doesn't care because he knows he can handle himself if the worst ever happens. Like, I think everyone, Vegeta included, realizes that if Vegeta ever actually acted on his threat to Bulma about the Androids, then Goku would swiftly take care of him. And as I keep saying over and over again, Goku and everyone else ended up being on his side of that issue anyway.

And yeah, Vegeta smacking his son around so he can have his egofest certainly makes him an asshole but compared to the previous actions, not really evil. He's not helping Cell kill everyone, and he doesn't go completely over the line anyway. Shit, Trunks is the one who outright says he'll kill Vegeta if it means preventing Cell's perfection...Vegeta just hit him and then went "C'mon man grow some balls don't you want to see how strong he can get?"

Yes, Vegeta's evil but his actions in the Cell saga aren't outright evil, just callous and self-serving.

[Dr. Casey]

I'd consider Saiyan saga Vegeta the pure evil one. Cell Saga Vegeta is... I dunno. 85-90 percent bad. He just says it's 100 percent to be edgy.

This is the first truly new argument in this discussion and I welcome it, there is only so much meat to this one sole discussion and I was afraid it had run its course.

Yeah, the thread's raised really interesting and unique points and has reshaped my view some on Vegeta's character development and the level of trust he's extended during Cell.

[MasenkoHA]

I am not on any side, if I am in any side I am in yours, but characters outright vocalizing "I am evil/good/neutral" is not good writing or showing instead of telling. But I am glad you explained.

If it was just that line alone devoid of action, it'd be bad. But Vegeta's actions throughout most of Cell do show that, yeah, he meant it.
I don't know why people are suddenly disputing that, but okay. Already said my pieces, ain't repeating myself.

Vegeta is evil (or at least a bastard) even in the Cell saga (up until his son gets killed and his heart grows 3 sizes that day) but he's not really doing anything evil at the time so the dragon team is unbothered. And no an empty threat that nobody takes seriously (including the person the threat was directed at!) and wanting to prove he has the biggest dick even if the world is at stake do not an evil villain make.

Bulma knows Goku can kick Vegeta's ass if he actually tried to kill her. VEGETA knows Goku can kick his ass if he killed Bulma. Bulma only really backs out of her suggestion when Goku tells her "Well technically from a very specific point of view Gero hasn't done enough anything wrong YET"

[GTx10]

Wait Vegeta's actions in the Cell Saga not evil? The dude risks the life of millions for the sake of a fight. He then actively attacks his 16-17 year old future son so he can have said fight. Yes that would put Son Goku in the same boat evil wise because of the Tournament of Power.

Vegeta is a disturbed mother burger. Lol I'd say Vegeta doesn't redeem himself until the Moro arc. That is when he has a true "I fudged up and I'm making it right in this moment." Okay maybe his Majin sacrifice too but I'd say Moro arc is his redemption moment.

Vegeta unlike the others gets away with more because he is a fan favorite. He is the Akechi (Persona 5 Royal) of DB and I've seen people excuse his actions just like they do with Geets.

[MasenkoHA]

Wait Vegeta's actions in the Cell Saga not evil? The dude risks the life of millions for the sake of a fight. He then actively attacks his 16-17 year old future son so he can have said fight. Yes that would put Son Goku in the same boat evil wise because of the Tournament of Power.

You know who also did this? Goku when he let Piccolo go free instead of having him sealed off, Goku again when he told Krillin to let Vegeta go so he can have a rematch, Goku again when he allowed Freeza to power up to 100 Goku again when he told Bulma he wanted to fight the androids.

Oh and Tenshinhan also said he's rather die an honorable death trying to fight the androids than just prevent their existence.

The Z warriors are not heroes of justice..except Gohan


Although no Goku did not risk any lives with the tournament of power since Zeno was going to wipe out a bunch of universea anyways and the tournament gave them a fighting chance (how are people still not getting this?)

[Cure Dragon 255]

Wait Vegeta's actions in the Cell Saga not evil? The dude risks the life of millions for the sake of a fight. He then actively attacks his 16-17 year old future son so he can have said fight. Yes that would put Son Goku in the same boat evil wise because of the Tournament of Power.

You know who also did this? Goku when he let Piccolo go free instead of having him sealed off, Goku again when he told Krillin to let Vegeta go so he can have a rematch, Goku again when he allowed Freeza to power up to 100 Goku again when he told Bulma he wanted to fight the androids.

Oh and Tenshinhan also said he's rather die an honorable death trying to fight the androids than just prevent their existence.

The Z warriors are not heroes of justice..except Gohan


Although no Goku did not risk any lives with the tournament of power since Zeno was going to wipe out a bunch of universea anyways and the tournament gave them a fighting chance (how are people still not getting this?)

They just said Goku is JUST AS EVIL. They just did, there are no contradictions in his statement.

[Koitsukai]

You can be evil without having every single act of yours be an evil deed. Characters don't have to be black or white, certainly not these guys.
Krillin risked everybody's life by not deactivating 18 but he isn't evil, no matter how many people were put in danger.
Geets did what he did in the Cell arc so he could get the W himself. He's an evil person, a shitty ally and an even worse father, but did not act out of pure evil, he doesn't want to see Cell win and rule the world.

Evil would've been if he went ahead and actually destroyed Trunks or killed those trying to protect 18, or if he actually tried to kill Bulma after the threat not even Bulma paid attention to(the CC invite was still standing after it). Besides, Goku is right fucking there, it's like me threatening Homelander's friend in front of him! Vegeta knows better.

[AliTheZombie13]

Fun fact: This guy did NOT get resurrected, neither did anyone else possibly killed by Vegeta as a casualty during the entirety of Cell.

[GTx10]

Yes Son Goku is evil for those reasons. But since the topic is about Geets I'm keeping the topic on him. Despite the messed up stuff Son has done, he ain't no Vegeta. Now from a battle point of view, having Vegeta around to face the Androids makes total sense.

But once Cell was killed Vegeta should of been off'd himself or at the very least expelled from Earth for his crap. But the Z Fighters are dumb, lazy, and Vegeta was smart enough not to mess with SS2 Son Gohan lol. (At that time) Then Geets relaxed and literally nothing happened for 7 years (seriously we need a Super era for that part of the story. Maybe) I think Vegeta being on Earth would of been less hard to take in if Bulma had not banged and housed him.

If Vegeta was living like a poor man Piccolo style I wonder if this conversation would even be a thing. Because we would be saying "Vegeta wasn't accepted or part of the group. He was just a random homeless nutcase alien who messed up our lives by letting Cell suck 18.

Kuririn would still be in the hot seat for his cyber sex though.

[AliTheZombie13]

But once Cell was killed Vegeta should of been off'd himself or at the very least expelled from Earth for his crap. But the Z Fighters are dumb, lazy, and Vegeta was smart enough not to mess with SS2 Son Gohan lol. (At that time) Then Geets relaxed and literally nothing happened for 7 years (seriously we need a Super era for that part of the story. Maybe) I think Vegeta being on Earth would of been less hard to take in if Bulma had not banged and housed him.

If Vegeta was living like a poor man Piccolo style I wonder if this conversation would even be a thing. Because we would be saying "Vegeta wasn't accepted or part of the group. He was just a random homeless nutcase alien who messed up our lives by letting Cell suck 18.

Kuririn would still be in the hot seat for his cyber sex though.

Exactly.
The point of my "this guy wasn't resurrected post."

I'm pretty sure somebody is already writing up a reply, "BUT THEY'RE NOT SUPER-HEROES, THEY DON'T GIVE A SHIT!!!!"
They do. They give a shit enough to go through the trouble of finding the Dragon Balls and resurrecting those who were killed by the bad guy. Heck, resurrecting the people Vegeta killed is a big-ass plot point and moral dilemma in the Boo Saga.

But notice: They asked for the Dragon Balls to resurrect the people Cell killed, not the people Vegeta killed. The fact here is, Toriyama has the story and the characters treat Vegeta as if he's not that bad, but we're shown otherwise. We see him kill people, we see him threatening to kill more people, we see him threatening the world just to stroke his own ego, but the heroes do nothing about him and he doesn't ever get called out for his actions, which is extremely jarring.

[tonysoprano300]

Goku also believed that Piccolo had changed and that he wasn’t really a bad guy anymore. There are a lot of context clues regarding the 23rd martial arts tournament that suggest this Piccolo is not as bad as the old one, Goku’s treatment of him kind of works in that framework.
https://imgur.com/a/ADyVkXv

We’ve already discussed the whole thing about whether the entire team allowing Gero to make the androids is in character or not so maybe it’s not worth retreading old territory but even in that instance it was Vegeta who came up with the idea and the others just went along. If we’re arguing Vegeta wouldn’t actually kill Bulma then sure, but he would certainly restrain her from stopping Gero. That much is obvious


Every action a person takes is often framed within their respective circumstances, while Goku allowing Vegeta to live was certainly stupid the reader knows that the characters will give Goku a pass because he was the saviour of the world. I believe this exact sentiment was echoed in the 23rd martial arts tournament by Tien. To be clear, even Goku becomes very questionable morally in comparison to his kid counterpart(not a change I particularly am fond of) but I don’t think It needs to be said how drastic the differences are between a guy like Goku who has given everything including his own life for Earth and a guy like Vegeta who is probably just as bad as the Villians they try to fight. So when he actively aids cell to achieve completion, Krillin should not be giving a single crap about Trunks stepping in to save Vegeta’s life imo

[Dr. Casey]

But once Cell was killed Vegeta should of been off'd himself or at the very least expelled from Earth for his crap. But the Z Fighters are dumb, lazy, and Vegeta was smart enough not to mess with SS2 Son Gohan lol. (At that time) Then Geets relaxed and literally nothing happened for 7 years (seriously we need a Super era for that part of the story. Maybe) I think Vegeta being on Earth would of been less hard to take in if Bulma had not banged and housed him.

If Vegeta was living like a poor man Piccolo style I wonder if this conversation would even be a thing. Because we would be saying "Vegeta wasn't accepted or part of the group. He was just a random homeless nutcase alien who messed up our lives by letting Cell suck 18.

Kuririn would still be in the hot seat for his cyber sex though.

Exactly.
The point of my "this guy wasn't resurrected post."

I'm pretty sure somebody is already writing up a reply, "BUT THEY'RE NOT SUPER-HEROES, THEY DON'T GIVE A SHIT!!!!"
They do. They give a shit enough to go through the trouble of finding the Dragon Balls and resurrecting those who were killed by the bad guy. Heck, resurrecting the people Vegeta killed is a big-ass plot point and moral dilemma in the Boo Saga.

But notice: They asked for the Dragon Balls to resurrect the people Cell killed, not the people Vegeta killed.

Honestly Toriyama might have just completely forgotten about the truck driver since it was a fleeting moment and at least six months, if not a year, passed between writing the two chapters. As a former writer, that does seem like the kind of thing that can slip your mind given a long enough timeframe.

I get why you think Vegeta didn't receive as much pushback as you'd expect. I don't remember the arc well enough to weigh in. I do know that the more morally and socially normal members of the group also tend to be the weaker ones. Goku and Piccolo are strong enough to control Vegeta but aren't easily upset, Krillin and Yamcha are much more normal but also too weak to do anything.

[tonysoprano300]

But once Cell was killed Vegeta should of been off'd himself or at the very least expelled from Earth for his crap. But the Z Fighters are dumb, lazy, and Vegeta was smart enough not to mess with SS2 Son Gohan lol. (At that time) Then Geets relaxed and literally nothing happened for 7 years (seriously we need a Super era for that part of the story. Maybe) I think Vegeta being on Earth would of been less hard to take in if Bulma had not banged and housed him.

If Vegeta was living like a poor man Piccolo style I wonder if this conversation would even be a thing. Because we would be saying "Vegeta wasn't accepted or part of the group. He was just a random homeless nutcase alien who messed up our lives by letting Cell suck 18.

Kuririn would still be in the hot seat for his cyber sex though.

Exactly.
The point of my "this guy wasn't resurrected post."

I'm pretty sure somebody is already writing up a reply, "BUT THEY'RE NOT SUPER-HEROES, THEY DON'T GIVE A SHIT!!!!"
They do. They give a shit enough to go through the trouble of finding the Dragon Balls and resurrecting those who were killed by the bad guy. Heck, resurrecting the people Vegeta killed is a big-ass plot point and moral dilemma in the Boo Saga.

But notice: They asked for the Dragon Balls to resurrect the people Cell killed, not the people Vegeta killed.

Honestly Toriyama might have just completely forgotten about the truck driver since it was a fleeting moment and at least six months, if not a year, passed between writing the two chapters. As a former writer, that does seem like the kind of thing that can slip your mind given a long enough timeframe.

I get why you think Vegeta didn't receive as much pushback as you'd expect. I don't remember the arc well enough to weigh in. I do know that the more morally and socially normal members of the group also tend to be the weaker ones. Goku and Piccolo are strong enough to control Vegeta but aren't easily upset, Krillin and Yamcha are much more normal but also too weak to do anything.

Kind of a side note but the panel in the Buu saga where Goku seemed to be frothing with rage after Vegeta killed innocent people at the world martial arts tournament was great, when I first saw it I really thought Vegeta had tested the Dragon team for the last time. It was quickly hand waived(because of course it is, it always is) but the way that page was drawn and the expressions on Gokus face was one of the most genuine reactions to Vegeta antics that I’ve seen.

[quote=GTx10 post_id=<a href="tel:1786230">1786230</a> time=<a href="tel:1721769512">1721769512</a> user_id=87196]
But once Cell was killed Vegeta should of been off'd himself or at the very least expelled from Earth for his crap. But the Z Fighters are dumb, lazy, and Vegeta was smart enough not to mess with SS2 Son Gohan lol. (At that time) Then Geets relaxed and literally nothing happened for 7 years (seriously we need a Super era for that part of the story. Maybe) I think Vegeta being on Earth would of been less hard to take in if Bulma had not banged and housed him.

If Vegeta was living like a poor man Piccolo style I wonder if this conversation would even be a thing. Because we would be saying "Vegeta wasn't accepted or part of the group. He was just a random homeless nutcase alien who messed up our lives by letting Cell suck 18.

Kuririn would still be in the hot seat for his cyber sex though.

Exactly.
The point of my "this guy wasn't resurrected post."

I'm pretty sure somebody is already writing up a reply, "BUT THEY'RE NOT SUPER-HEROES, THEY DON'T GIVE A SHIT!!!!"
They do. They give a shit enough to go through the trouble of finding the Dragon Balls and resurrecting those who were killed by the bad guy. Heck, resurrecting the people Vegeta killed is a big-ass plot point and moral dilemma in the Boo Saga.

But notice: They asked for the Dragon Balls to resurrect the people Cell killed, not the people Vegeta killed. The fact here is, Toriyama has the story and the characters treat Vegeta as if he's not that bad, but we're shown otherwise. We see him kill people, we see him threatening to kill more people, we see him threatening the world just to stroke his own ego, but the heroes do nothing about him and he doesn't ever get called out for his actions, which is extremely jarring.
[/quote]


We’re also pretty much going through this with Freeza at the moment, he attempts to destroy the earth for the 3rd time in DBS Broly and they just let him go.

[ABED]

Why is anyone bringing up the guy in the truck as if he's that important? He's there to show that Vegeta doesn't care about collateral damage, and little else. Even if Toriyama did forget about him, why does it matter? It's not like it's a dangling thread that needs resolution.

[MasenkoHA]

How many of them were even aware Vegeta accidentally killed a trucker?

[jjgp1112]

Goku also believed that Piccolo had changed and that he wasn’t really a bad guy anymore. There are a lot of context clues regarding the 23rd martial arts tournament that suggest this Piccolo is not as bad as the old one, Goku’s treatment of him kind of works in that framework.
https://imgur.com/a/ADyVkXv

Piccolo Jr. blew up an entire island and was behaving even more unhinged and violently than his original self. Once the veil of the tournament went away, mans lost his rocker. I need people to rewatch the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and understand just how much Piccolo's behavior in the Saiyan saga even prior to his sacrifice was already a massive departure. He goes from an absolute fucking lunatic speaking entirely in megalomaniacal monologues to a chill, stoic guy. Toei had to run interference and include a benevolent act to fill in the blanks, because otherwise the "My dad said you seemed less evil now" statement that even predates the Raditz ordeal feels like something Toriyama pulled on the spot just to accelerate his turn. Because nobody, least of all Goku, was actually treating Piccolo that way. Hell, Goku was probably more hostile towards Piccolo Jr, especially after he Mafuba'd Kami, then he was towards any other villain save Frieza and Raditz...and Vegeta when he kills the spectators.

Piccolo being civil enough and having the self-control to go through the tournament procedures doesn't make him any less evil - shit that's been the entire crux of my Vegeta argument for the last 8 million pages! That being evil doesn't mean every single breath you take is in the name of KILL EM ALL. His participation in the tournament is merely a function of this being a goofy manga where the world, and we eventually learn the entire multiverse, revolves around the culture of martial arts.