The REAL reason people dont forgive GT for "Plot Holes" when they do for OG and Z

[ABED]

I don't agree about the dynamic. I liked the mix of Trunks, Pan, Goku, and Giru. I just wish Pan wasn't used purely as the maiden.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

In many ways GT looks and feels distinctly different to DB/Z, to the point were it alienates fans. The characters are mostly getting old, and are drawn to look it. Stuff like Vegeta having a moustache, Gohan seemingly being 100% done with fighting, and Piccolo barely being present at all understandably rubs fans the wrong way.

GT was part of the OG run, and most of us watched it right after Z. Because of this the direct comparisons were inevitable. The early episodes in particular are drastically different from the majority of Z.

It alienates fans yes, but I feel a lot of that is because of unrealistic expectations. As a kid I didn't like seeing characters retire from fighting in GT but that's just life. People get older, they're not able to do the things they used to do. It happens. Conversely, Super gives people what they want to the detriment of the story's progression by keeping characters stuck in perpetual states that stunt their development.

Vegeta acknowledges Goku is number one, so in GT he continues training as he always has but doesn't have his heart set on surpassing Goku. Super regresses Vegeta back to who he was during the Freeza, Android, Cell and Buu sagas, hell they even gave him his full armour without the shoulder pads back. In GT we see a more mature Vegeta who is more domesticated, wears earthly clothes more, drives a car and takes his daughter on shopping trips.

Gohan losing his mystic form sucks, but at the same time Super has been really inconsistent with him and can't make up its mind about whether Gohan wants to dedicate his time fully to his studies or find the right balance between that and staying strong to protect his family. As you mentioned before Super Hero made it look like Gohan was slacking, throwing his request for Piccolo to continue training him out the window. GT is at least consistent with Gohan being a scholar and family man 95% of the time.

Piccolo should have had more to do in GT, yes. Even just explaining the history of the black star Dragon Balls would have done wonders, because, as I've said before their existence is completely unjustified and makes no sense.

I enjoy Super as a guilty pleasure, but GT for all its faults is a series with a lot more substance.

[ABED]

In many ways GT looks and feels distinctly different to DB/Z, to the point were it alienates fans. The characters are mostly getting old, and are drawn to look it. Stuff like Vegeta having a moustache, Gohan seemingly being 100% done with fighting, and Piccolo barely being present at all understandably rubs fans the wrong way.

GT was part of the OG run, and most of us watched it right after Z. Because of this the direct comparisons were inevitable. The early episodes in particular are drastically different from the majority of Z.

It alienates fans yes, but I feel a lot of that is because of unrealistic expectations. As a kid I didn't like seeing characters retire from fighting in GT but that's just life. People get older, they're not able to do the things they used to do. It happens. Conversely, Super gives people what they want to the detriment of the story's progression by keeping characters stuck in perpetual states that stunt their development.

Vegeta acknowledges Goku is number one, so in GT he continues training as he always has but doesn't have his heart set on surpassing Goku. Super regresses Vegeta back to who he was during the Freeza, Android, Cell and Buu sagas, hell they even gave him his full armour without the shoulder pads back. In GT we see a more mature Vegeta who is more domesticated, wears earthly clothes more, drives a car and takes his daughter on shopping trips.

Gohan losing his mystic form sucks, but at the same time Super has been really inconsistent with him and can't make up its mind about whether Gohan wants to dedicate his time fully to his studies or find the right balance between that and staying strong to protect his family. As you mentioned before Super Hero made it look like Gohan was slacking, throwing his request for Piccolo to continue training him out the window. GT is at least consistent with Gohan being a scholar and family man 95% of the time.

Piccolo should have had more to do in GT, yes. Even just explaining the history of the black star Dragon Balls would have done wonders, because, as I've said before their existence is completely unjustified and makes no sense.

I enjoy Super as a guilty pleasure, but GT for all its faults is a series with a lot more substance.

Vegeta didn't regress in Super. Vegeta's epiphany wasn't admitting that Goku was better. It was admitting that Goku was better and that it didn't cut him to his core. He still wants to push himself to be better. In GT he practically gives up. That's not progress for Vegeta. In Super, he still wants to be stronger but it's a more healthy and productive competition. Sadly Super does regress his look to his most popular look but in the Resurrection F arc he has a new armor over a kung fu gi. I wish they had kept that look as does signify progress.

In Super Hero it only looked like Gohan was slacking. He has stayed up with his training. He's just finding work life balance tricky.

[Cure Dragon 255]

In many ways GT looks and feels distinctly different to DB/Z, to the point were it alienates fans. The characters are mostly getting old, and are drawn to look it. Stuff like Vegeta having a moustache, Gohan seemingly being 100% done with fighting, and Piccolo barely being present at all understandably rubs fans the wrong way.

GT was part of the OG run, and most of us watched it right after Z. Because of this the direct comparisons were inevitable. The early episodes in particular are drastically different from the majority of Z.

It alienates fans yes, but I feel a lot of that is because of unrealistic expectations. As a kid I didn't like seeing characters retire from fighting in GT but that's just life. People get older, they're not able to do the things they used to do. It happens. Conversely, Super gives people what they want to the detriment of the story's progression by keeping characters stuck in perpetual states that stunt their development.

Vegeta acknowledges Goku is number one, so in GT he continues training as he always has but doesn't have his heart set on surpassing Goku. Super regresses Vegeta back to who he was during the Freeza, Android, Cell and Buu sagas, hell they even gave him his full armour without the shoulder pads back. In GT we see a more mature Vegeta who is more domesticated, wears earthly clothes more, drives a car and takes his daughter on shopping trips.

Gohan losing his mystic form sucks, but at the same time Super has been really inconsistent with him and can't make up its mind about whether Gohan wants to dedicate his time fully to his studies or find the right balance between that and staying strong to protect his family. As you mentioned before Super Hero made it look like Gohan was slacking, throwing his request for Piccolo to continue training him out the window. GT is at least consistent with Gohan being a scholar and family man 95% of the time.

Piccolo should have had more to do in GT, yes. Even just explaining the history of the black star Dragon Balls would have done wonders, because, as I've said before their existence is completely unjustified and makes no sense.

I enjoy Super as a guilty pleasure, but GT for all its faults is a series with a lot more substance.

I love you DBI and that's swell and all but Dragon Ball is a power fantasy, we dont tune in or read the manga to see Goku pay his taxes or whatever. It's okay for Dragon Ball to be escapist and its okay for it not to reflect our grim reality. I now this leads to Toei avoiding any sort of "Growing Up" or "Character Development" and while that is fucking infuriating this is not the fault of Dragon Ball being escapist but basically just utterly shoddy writing.

[Cure Dragon 255]

In many ways GT looks and feels distinctly different to DB/Z, to the point were it alienates fans. The characters are mostly getting old, and are drawn to look it. Stuff like Vegeta having a moustache, Gohan seemingly being 100% done with fighting, and Piccolo barely being present at all understandably rubs fans the wrong way.

GT was part of the OG run, and most of us watched it right after Z. Because of this the direct comparisons were inevitable. The early episodes in particular are drastically different from the majority of Z.

It alienates fans yes, but I feel a lot of that is because of unrealistic expectations. As a kid I didn't like seeing characters retire from fighting in GT but that's just life. People get older, they're not able to do the things they used to do. It happens. Conversely, Super gives people what they want to the detriment of the story's progression by keeping characters stuck in perpetual states that stunt their development.

Vegeta acknowledges Goku is number one, so in GT he continues training as he always has but doesn't have his heart set on surpassing Goku. Super regresses Vegeta back to who he was during the Freeza, Android, Cell and Buu sagas, hell they even gave him his full armour without the shoulder pads back. In GT we see a more mature Vegeta who is more domesticated, wears earthly clothes more, drives a car and takes his daughter on shopping trips.

Gohan losing his mystic form sucks, but at the same time Super has been really inconsistent with him and can't make up its mind about whether Gohan wants to dedicate his time fully to his studies or find the right balance between that and staying strong to protect his family. As you mentioned before Super Hero made it look like Gohan was slacking, throwing his request for Piccolo to continue training him out the window. GT is at least consistent with Gohan being a scholar and family man 95% of the time.

Piccolo should have had more to do in GT, yes. Even just explaining the history of the black star Dragon Balls would have done wonders, because, as I've said before their existence is completely unjustified and makes no sense.

I enjoy Super as a guilty pleasure, but GT for all its faults is a series with a lot more substance.

I love you DBI and that's swell and all but Dragon Ball is a power fantasy, we dont tune in or read the manga to see Goku pay his taxes or whatever. It's okay for Dragon Ball to be escapist and its okay for it not to reflect our grim reality. I now this leads to Toei avoiding any sort of "Growing Up" or "Character Development" and while that is fucking infuriating this is not the fault of Dragon Ball being escapist but basically just utterly shoddy writing.

[WittyUsername]

In many ways GT looks and feels distinctly different to DB/Z, to the point were it alienates fans. The characters are mostly getting old, and are drawn to look it. Stuff like Vegeta having a moustache, Gohan seemingly being 100% done with fighting, and Piccolo barely being present at all understandably rubs fans the wrong way.

GT was part of the OG run, and most of us watched it right after Z. Because of this the direct comparisons were inevitable. The early episodes in particular are drastically different from the majority of Z.

It alienates fans yes, but I feel a lot of that is because of unrealistic expectations. As a kid I didn't like seeing characters retire from fighting in GT but that's just life. People get older, they're not able to do the things they used to do. It happens. Conversely, Super gives people what they want to the detriment of the story's progression by keeping characters stuck in perpetual states that stunt their development.

Vegeta acknowledges Goku is number one, so in GT he continues training as he always has but doesn't have his heart set on surpassing Goku. Super regresses Vegeta back to who he was during the Freeza, Android, Cell and Buu sagas, hell they even gave him his full armour without the shoulder pads back. In GT we see a more mature Vegeta who is more domesticated, wears earthly clothes more, drives a car and takes his daughter on shopping trips.

Gohan losing his mystic form sucks, but at the same time Super has been really inconsistent with him and can't make up its mind about whether Gohan wants to dedicate his time fully to his studies or find the right balance between that and staying strong to protect his family. As you mentioned before Super Hero made it look like Gohan was slacking, throwing his request for Piccolo to continue training him out the window. GT is at least consistent with Gohan being a scholar and family man 95% of the time.

Piccolo should have had more to do in GT, yes. Even just explaining the history of the black star Dragon Balls would have done wonders, because, as I've said before their existence is completely unjustified and makes no sense.

I enjoy Super as a guilty pleasure, but GT for all its faults is a series with a lot more substance.

Vegeta didn't regress in Super. Vegeta's epiphany wasn't admitting that Goku was better. It was admitting that Goku was better and that it didn't cut him to his core. He still wants to push himself to be better. In GT he practically gives up. That's not progress for Vegeta. In Super, he still wants to be stronger but it's a more healthy and productive competition. Sadly Super does regress his look to his most popular look but in the Resurrection F arc he has a new armor over a kung fu gi. I wish they had kept that look as does signify progress.

In Super Hero it only looked like Gohan was slacking. He has stayed up with his training. He's just finding work life balance tricky.

I don’t know if it’s fair to say that Vegeta has given up in GT. He does have an entire episode during the Evil Dragons storyline (albeit it was mostly a clip show) where he reflects on how he’s sick of being pushed to the sidelines, and wants to take action. Unfortunately, it doesn’t really amount to anything, since he ultimately plays no part in defeating Yi Xing Long/Omega Shenron.

[MasenkoHA]

I kinda dug Vegeta's adventure in irrelevance...like nearly every other non-Goku character. He was just a past his prime "I used to be a badass" stay at home dad now. It kinda worked with the direction his character was heading in the Boo saga anyways. His return to prominence near the 11th hour felt so tacked on, like Bandai threw in a mandate to sell Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta and Gogeta toys.

[SupremeKai25]

Vegeta acknowledges Goku is number one, so in GT he continues training as he always has but doesn't have his heart set on surpassing Goku. Super regresses Vegeta back to who he was during the Freeza, Android, Cell and Buu sagas, hell they even gave him his full armour without the shoulder pads back. In GT we see a more mature Vegeta who is more domesticated, wears earthly clothes more, drives a car and takes his daughter on shopping trips.

For the record, Vegeta was like this at the beginning of Super too.





But then he realizes that there is a whole new level of power with which he can become more powerful, and a Saiyan remains a Saiyan, so of course he is going to chase after that new level of power.

As a matter of fact, GT Vegeta still had a rivalry with Goku and challenged him to a fight in the Super 17 arc, saying "today is the day that I defeat you". In the next arc he used a mechanical means to achieve SSJ4 and remain competitive with Goku. So I don't know why people act like GT Vegeta turned into a civilian. He still craved power, he simply did not know how he could close the wide gap with Goku. Besides, GT Goku and Vegeta BARELY interacted at all, considering how Goku was off-world for half of the show and Vegeta got possessed in the meantime.

Gohan losing his mystic form sucks, but at the same time Super has been really inconsistent with him and can't make up its mind about whether Gohan wants to dedicate his time fully to his studies or find the right balance between that and staying strong to protect his family. As you mentioned before Super Hero made it look like Gohan was slacking, throwing his request for Piccolo to continue training him out the window.

Why can't these two options coexist? When the Earth is at peace, Gohan dedicates his time fully to his studies. When the Earth is threatened by an alien invader (as in the case of Golden Frieza and Moro), Gohan steps up to help confront the invaders. He's not just going to stand and watch. He's a scholar, not a coward.

And since Gohan is a genius prodigy, he doesn't need training to leave everyone else in the dust, because he has that rage in him that will always allow him to close any gap in power (it was the same thing in Z btw).

[Zephyr]

I don't agree about the dynamic. I liked the mix of Trunks, Pan, Goku, and Giru. I just wish Pan wasn't used purely as the maiden.

I don't completely hate the GT dynamic, but I don't think it holds a candle to the Pilaf arc dynamic. I'd need to give both a fresh read and watch, respectively, to really do justice to why I feel that way, though.

[ABED]

I kinda dug Vegeta's adventure in irrelevance...like nearly every other non-Goku character. He was just a past his prime "I used to be a badass" stay at home dad now. It kinda worked with the direction his character was heading in the Boo saga anyways. His return to prominence near the 11th hour felt so tacked on, like Bandai threw in a mandate to sell Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta and Gogeta toys.

No more tacked on than Goku returning as the main character when the whole arc to a certain point was hitting the audience over the head with "it's the new generation's time". There was still a lot to explore with Vegeta and while thinking he's a badass is part of it, his big arc is anything but. His journey has been about gradually breaking down that front.

Anyway, I'm honestly surprise there hasn't been much if any pushback on my point that plot holes don't matter to audiences.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I kinda dug Vegeta's adventure in irrelevance...like nearly every other non-Goku character. He was just a past his prime "I used to be a badass" stay at home dad now. It kinda worked with the direction his character was heading in the Boo saga anyways. His return to prominence near the 11th hour felt so tacked on, like Bandai threw in a mandate to sell Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta and Gogeta toys.

No more tacked on than Goku returning as the main character when the whole arc to a certain point was hitting the audience over the head with "it's the new generation's time". There was still a lot to explore with Vegeta and while thinking he's a badass is part of it, his big arc is anything but. His journey has been about gradually breaking down that front.

Anyway, I'm honestly surprise there hasn't been much if any pushback on my point that plot holes don't matter to audiences.

What? You wanted to argue? But to be completely honest I am amazed too.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

For the record, Vegeta was like this at the beginning of Super too.

I'm aware, and it's very clear from those pictures he didn't enjoy it. Granted his expressions in GT still made it look like somewhat of a chore but he doesn't give off that "get me out of here" anymore, seems like he's just accepting its his duty.

Why can't these two options coexist? When the Earth is at peace, Gohan dedicates his time fully to his studies. When the Earth is threatened by an alien invader (as in the case of Golden Frieza and Moro), Gohan steps up to help confront the invaders. He's not just going to stand and watch. He's a scholar, not a coward.

Because if Gohan doesn't find some time for training even in peaceful times he knows he will fall behind the other fighters. And honestly the Beast transformation in Super Hero kind of came out of nowhere, felt like Super Saiyan Blue it was just tacked on to sell more toys and give the hero a much needed power boost.

I don't completely hate the GT dynamic, but I don't think it holds a candle to the Pilaf arc dynamic. I'd need to give both a fresh read and watch, respectively, to really do justice to why I feel that way, though.

It's why a lot of people don't like the Black star Dragon Ball arc other than there being nothing to justify the Black star Dragon Balls. It feels like a poor man's version of original Dragon Ball. The writers may have had their hearts in the right place but they didn't know how to write a story like that the way Toriyama did.

Anyway, I'm honestly surprise there hasn't been much if any pushback on my point that plot holes don't matter to audiences.

To the general audience? Yeah, they probably don't. They matter a lot to the Internet, on places like Reddit specifically where people will call out anything for being a plot hole or "bad writing" and disparage an entire movie, series, arc etc because of it.

[ABED]

I kinda dug Vegeta's adventure in irrelevance...like nearly every other non-Goku character. He was just a past his prime "I used to be a badass" stay at home dad now. It kinda worked with the direction his character was heading in the Boo saga anyways. His return to prominence near the 11th hour felt so tacked on, like Bandai threw in a mandate to sell Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta and Gogeta toys.

No more tacked on than Goku returning as the main character when the whole arc to a certain point was hitting the audience over the head with "it's the new generation's time". There was still a lot to explore with Vegeta and while thinking he's a badass is part of it, his big arc is anything but. His journey has been about gradually breaking down that front.

Anyway, I'm honestly surprise there hasn't been much if any pushback on my point that plot holes don't matter to audiences.

What? You wanted to argue? But to be completely honest I am amazed too.

Ha! Whyioutta! In all earnestness, given that 1) I see an awful lot of people including on here talk about plot holes (in a thread about this exact subject), it feels odd that I say they don't matter and no one bats an eye. And 2) Last time I said it, I did get pushback.

[Cure Dragon 255]

No more tacked on than Goku returning as the main character when the whole arc to a certain point was hitting the audience over the head with "it's the new generation's time". There was still a lot to explore with Vegeta and while thinking he's a badass is part of it, his big arc is anything but. His journey has been about gradually breaking down that front.

Anyway, I'm honestly surprise there hasn't been much if any pushback on my point that plot holes don't matter to audiences.

What? You wanted to argue? But to be completely honest I am amazed too.

Ha! Whyioutta! In all earnestness, given that 1) I see an awful lot of people including on here talk about plot holes (in a thread about this exact subject), it feels odd that I say they don't matter and no one bats an eye. And 2) Last time I said it, I did get pushback.

I think it may be because people are turning on Cinema Sins and that flimsy but fulfilling stories are enjoyable.

[ABED]

What? You wanted to argue? But to be completely honest I am amazed too.

Ha! Whyioutta! In all earnestness, given that 1) I see an awful lot of people including on here talk about plot holes (in a thread about this exact subject), it feels odd that I say they don't matter and no one bats an eye. And 2) Last time I said it, I did get pushback.

I think it may be because people are turning on Cinema Sins and that flimsy but fulfilling stories are enjoyable.

One can hope. Also, I think people might be figuring out the difference between plot and story, at least on a subconscious level.

[MasenkoHA]

[
No more tacked on than Goku returning as the main character when the whole arc to a certain point was hitting the audience over the head with "it's the new generation's time".

Sure, I concur it was a bit sloppy to build up "it's time for the new generation to shine" only to backtrack and go "damn useless millennials, gen x got to do everything" but at least there was already a status quo of Goku being the lead and a set up (if unintended at the time)for a Boo and Goku rematch with Goku being impressed by Majin Boo's abilities. I'd say it's less tacked on then bringing Vegeta back to the spotlight in GT.

Anyway, I'm honestly surprise there hasn't been much if any pushback on my point that plot holes don't matter to audiences.

I pretty much agree, most people just want to be entertained and if they get hooked into a story they're not going to be too concerned about plot holes.

And as this thread seems to be getting at, there's also the issue that plot hole discussed online often aren't actually plot holes and amount to "I wasn't paying attention" or "characters don't behave in a way I believe they should" or "I don't understand the difference between a contrivance to allow a story to happen and a plot hole"

"Dragon Ball fans don't watch Dragon Ball" has practically become a meme and if you made a drinking game out of how often fans asked why the Saiyans didn't come back when all those who were killed by Freeza were wished back (for a particularly egregious example) you'd be dead of alcohol poisoning within an hour on Reddit or YouTube.

[SupremeKai25]

I'm aware, and it's very clear from those pictures he didn't enjoy it. Granted his expressions in GT still made it look like somewhat of a chore but he doesn't give off that "get me out of here" anymore, seems like he's just accepting its his duty.

Okay this is just splitting hairs based on subjective interpretation. He literally has the exact same expression in GT. He's Vegeta, he's broody and angry-faced, he's not a golden retriever.

Because if Gohan doesn't find some time for training even in peaceful times he knows he will fall behind the other fighters. And honestly the Beast transformation in Super Hero kind of came out of nowhere, felt like Super Saiyan Blue it was just tacked on to sell more toys and give the hero a much needed power boost.

Except, he never does. He never falls behind the other fighters, because his rage/potential is that massive that it always allows him to bridge any gap, and this has been a recurring plot point in his story since forever.

Anyway, I'm honestly surprise there hasn't been much if any pushback on my point that plot holes don't matter to audiences.

Because it's true? They don't matter.

That's why people are so nostalgic about the Cell saga and love it so much despite having the most egregious plot-holes in the franchise.

Mr. "I can regenerate as long as you don't destroy my head. Oh you just destroyed my head? No problem, I can just regenerate lol"

[Majin Buu]

I kinda dug Vegeta's adventure in irrelevance...like nearly every other non-Goku character. He was just a past his prime "I used to be a badass" stay at home dad now. It kinda worked with the direction his character was heading in the Boo saga anyways. His return to prominence near the 11th hour felt so tacked on, like Bandai threw in a mandate to sell Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta and Gogeta toys.

Eh, I didn't mind Vegeta returning to the fold near the end since he was such a non-presence for most of the show's run.

No more tacked on than Goku returning as the main character when the whole arc to a certain point was hitting the audience over the head with "it's the new generation's time".

Sure, I concur it was a bit sloppy to build up "it's time for the new generation to shine" only to backtrack and go "damn useless millennials, gen x got to do everything"

Eh, I think the anime version rewriting the Great Saiyaman section into more of a thing (kinda) helps make "new generation time" feel like more of a thing than it is in the manga by virtue of simply giving Gohan more time as the main character and better developing his friendship with Videl.

[kemuri07]

Plotholes only matter to people who desperately want to be seen as "intellectual", but are not actually engaging with the media they're consuming. Most writers are willing to make concessions to things like "logic" for the sake of drama and entertainment.

Seriously the 2010s were the worst time to talk about movies with people and a big indicator that someone doesn't know what they're talking about is if they're sole criticism of a film is that it has plot holes.

If you really want to, you can absolutely dissect any type of show in this matter. But the reality is, "plotholes" that are bad enough that they take you out of enjoying media are symptomatic of a larger issue with a narrative structure. But people are willing to forgive them if the overall narrative is compelling.

[tonysoprano300]

Plotholes only matter to people who desperately want to be seen as "intellectual", but are not actually engaging with the media they're consuming. Most writers are willing to make concessions to things like "logic" for the sake of drama and entertainment.

Seriously the 2010s were the worst time to talk about movies with people and a big indicator that someone doesn't know what they're talking about is if they're sole criticism of a film is that it has plot holes.

If you really want to, you can absolutely dissect any type of show in this matter. But the reality is, "plotholes" that are bad enough that they take you out of enjoying media are symptomatic of a larger issue with a narrative structure. But people are willing to forgive them if the overall narrative is compelling.

True, like you said it matters to a certain extent. If you have holes in almost every scene then it can take an audience out of a story, I think my issue with that sort of Cinema Sins styled critique is that its honestly just very boring to listen to imo. Its just someone summarizing the plot scene by scene and then occasionally pointing out a plot hole.

Its not like you could fix something like GOT Season 8, by just plugging up all the holes in the plot