The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[GatoF]

Shin vs SSJ Kid Trunks (black arc)

Shin one shots him.

Wasn't Trunks able to fight Cell Jrs? What if he fights alongside SSJ Goten?

[ZombieVito]

Wasn't Trunks able to fight Cell Jrs? What if he fights alongside SSJ Goten?

Shin is far stronger than a Cell Jr.

[Hugo Boss]

According to Daizenshuu 7, Shin’s power is stated to be far superior to Piccolo’s, and he possesses a variety of abilities like paralysis and force telekinesis, giving him an edge in versatility. His combat performance though is a mystery, particularly against characters like Super Saiyan Gohan, who held his own for a while against Dabra, implying his raw combat strength might not match up well against physically powerful fighters.

The Cell Juniors fought more than evenly with most of the Z fighters during the Cell Games, easily overwhelming them, including a trained Piccolo, showing impressive combat prowess. Their durability and regeneration, inherited from Cell, also make them difficult to damage and defeat, but they lack versatility compared to someone like Shin, who could potentially outmaneuver them with special abilities.

So, the fight could go either way, depending on how effectively Shin utilizes his techniques.

[TobyS]

So Boohan is obviously stronger than Gohan, and you think Goku was stronger than Ultimate Gohan/Kid Boo/Boohan in the final battle, or at least could wipe him out with a full powered attack?

Thinking Kid Boo is the strongest is dumb but the least dumb variant of that fan misaprehension was those that assume pure Boo was holding back and only the spirit bomb could have beaten him after all. Thinking Goku is stronger than Gohan is seriously brain fragged when it's canon always that Gohan has more potential and his elder kai upgrade brought him to beyond his limits.

Good for you as someone whos taking the time to write articles but yeah nothing to engage with you on this topic, you do you.

[Hugo Boss]

After engaging in this convo with a lot of different people, I think my current take on this subject is definitively not clear, as both sides of the argument have valid points.

Gohan:
- His full potential is said to surpass Goku’s at the time by multiple official sources.
- Easily overwhelmed a version of Boo that Gotenks failed to defeat and that was stronger than Goku, by his own admission (though he didn’t try it).

Goku:
- Some official sources indicate Goku as the “strongest in the universe” post-Boo arc.
- Saiyans grow stronger during combat, so Goku’s strength may have increased as the fight progressed (not confirmed) and, then, started declining.

The ambiguity comes from different moments in the manga and external sources, leaving the question open to interpretation rather than providing a definitive answer. Perhaps this was the author’s intention, perhaps not. My hunch is that we have a similar situation with Ultra Instinct vs. Beast.

[daniel1]

So Boohan is obviously stronger than Gohan, and you think Goku was stronger than Ultimate Gohan/Kid Boo/Boohan in the final battle, or at least could wipe him out with a full powered attack?

It doesn't really matter what I think. That's how Toriyama wrote it, for better or worse, and so that's just how it is.

Thinking Kid Boo is the strongest is dumb

Again, it's not a matter of what I think or don't think. It's just the truth. The sources and media that confirm this are Akira Toriyama, Dragon Ball Carddass, Dragon Ball Chouzenshuu 1, Dragon Ball Daizenshuu 2, Dragon Ball Daizenshuu 10, Dragon Ball Forever, Dragon Ball Kai, Dragon Ball Kai Miracle Battle Carddass, Dragon Ball Kai: Ultimate Butoden, Dragon Ball Legends, Dragon Ball PP Cards, Dragon Ball: Raging Blast, Dragon Ball: Sparking! Zero, Dragon Ball Super (anime), Dragon Ball Super (manga), Dragon Ball: Super Battle, Dragon Ball: Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume, Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2, Dragon Ball Z, Dragon Ball Z: Budokai 3, Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi 2, Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi 3, Dragon Ball Z: Buu’s Fury, Dragon Ball Z Collectible Card Game, Dragon Ball Z Dokkan Battle, Dragon Ball Z: Kakarot, Super Dragon Ball Heroes Carddass, and TV Anime Guide: Dragon Ball Z Son Goku Densetsu.

Thinking Goku is stronger than Gohan is seriously brain fragged when it's canon always that Gohan has more potential and his elder kai upgrade brought him to beyond his limits.

Gohan has the potential to be stronger than Goku and many sources confirm this. However, Gohan is not actually stronger than Goku from the Kid Buu fight until Super Hero. To disagree with this means disagreeing with Akira Toriyama, Chouzenshuu 1, Chouzenshuu 2, Chouzenshuu 3, Chouzenshuu 4, Daizenshuu 2, Daizenshuu 4, Daizenshuu 6, Daizenshuu 7, Daizenshuu 10, Dragon Ball Daima, Dragon Ball Forever, Dragon Ball Kai, Dragon Ball Super (anime), Dragon Ball: Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume, Dragon Ball Z, Dragon Ball Z: Kakarot, Masahiro Hosoda, TV Anime Guide: Dragon Ball Z Son Goku Densetsu, and V-Jump.

[Gogetason]

You have to make Goku and Vegeta look like assholes when they misjudge boo on something so shallow despite the fact they sense ki, it makes no sense they'd sense his ki getting big, see him get smaller, but turn off their ki sensing and assume he got weaker also with no proof, even though he was so much stronger than them before and got stronger still when Buff.

I think you should consider the fact they cant sense buus ki properly. There are loads of scenes in the manga that prove this.

1. Did the absorptions of the Kaioshins weaken Majin Boo? I think this is kinda implied, but Shin wasn’t really comparing the powered-up versions of Majin Boo with Pure Boo, but rather with the fat and “innocent” Boo. The important part of his speech is presenting the original Boo as the most chaotic form. The absorptions of the South and Dai Kaioshins diluted his raw destructive nature, which Super Boo lacked, since he didn’t destroy stuff instantly.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s)…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

The kais clearly state buu lost post through absorption and old kai deduction implies its a statement comparing all forms of buus with just the kais absorbed and kid buu/purebuu. So super buu also having Dia-kaioshin in him means hes a weaker buu compared to kid buu. And a sole distinction such as more destructive or evil would be inconsequential because super buu was strong enough and evil enough to destroy the universe though he would do it at a much slower pace; super buu was already going to destroy the earth twice. It makes more sense the kais are considering both kid buus superior power and turned up evilness.

So Boohan is obviously stronger than Gohan, and you think Goku was stronger than Ultimate Gohan/Kid Boo/Boohan in the final battle, or at least could wipe him out with a full powered attack?

Thinking Kid Boo is the strongest is dumb but the least dumb variant of that fan misaprehension was those that assume pure Boo was holding back and only the spirit bomb could have beaten him after all. Thinking Goku is stronger than Gohan is seriously brain fragged when it's canon always that Gohan has more potential and his elder kai upgrade brought him to beyond his limits.

Good for you as someone whos taking the time to write articles but yeah nothing to engage with you on this topic, you do you.

I dont think its "brain fragged" when you consider Akira changed his mind from making gohan the main character; Gohan has the potential but Gokus could out do him with superior determination and hardwork(and luck) which is what ssg3 represents.

I disagree with Buuhan<kid buu though. Buuhan>ssj3Goku=kid buu>gohan> super buu>/=ssj3 gotenks makes the most sense.

[Hugo Boss]

The kais clearly state buu lost post through absorption and old kai deduction implies its a statement comparing all forms of buus with just the kais absorbed and kid buu/purebuu. So super buu also having Dia-kaioshin in him means hes a weaker buu compared to kid buu. And a sole distinction such as more destructive or evil would be inconsequential because super buu was strong enough and evil enough to destroy the universe though he would do it at a much slower pace; super buu was already going to destroy the earth twice. It makes more sense the kais are considering both kid buus superior power and turned up evilness.

The text describes Kid Boo’s danger as his uncontrollable nature and pure malevolence, it doesn’t state he is objectively stronger than all other forms. When Elder Kaioshin refers to him as the “most troublesome,” he’s discussing Kid Boo’s lack of self-restraint and return to “evil itself,” rather than suggesting a direct power comparison across all forms.

Kid Boo is “troublesome” for his chaotic evilness, but that doesn’t equate to superiority in sheer power, unless it’s stated or implied (in this case they are talking about Kid Boo transitioning into Fat Boo, so the implication is that Kid Boo is more powerful than Fat Boo). Super Boo’s calculated evil could make him more dangerous in certain contexts.

[Koitsukai]

Even Koyama said Buuhan was the strongest Buu.
I really cannot see why or how Goku could be afraid to fight Super Buu while being stronger than him. I've never seen a non-Broly character close such a gap without transformations or hard training... or even an actual, explicit commentary about it. The narrative is quite clear, so much that this might be the one subject I can't even get worked up on because it's so simple.

There are two tiers, fusion tier and non-fusion tier, one is clearly stronger than the other, and the narrative was even clearer.

[Hugo Boss]

I've never seen a non-Broly character close such a gap without transformations or hard training... or even an actual, explicit commentary about it.

To be fair, there are moments where Goku demonstrates unexpected growth during battles, something Vegeta has repeatedly noted with frustration and admiration. For instance, Vegeta’s dialogue during Goku’s fight against Kid Boo highlights Goku’s ability to surpass his own limits mid-fight. Vegeta has observed this trait, especially during high-stakes encounters, like the fights with Vegeta himself and Freeza. This dynamic skill set implies that Goku’s ability to tap into new power makes him less predictable in scaling terms, which adds to this infinite debate.

[Koitsukai]

I've never seen a non-Broly character close such a gap without transformations or hard training... or even an actual, explicit commentary about it.

To be fair, there are moments where Goku demonstrates unexpected growth during battles, something Vegeta has repeatedly noted with frustration and admiration. For instance, Vegeta’s dialogue during Goku’s fight against Kid Boo highlights Goku’s ability to surpass his own limits mid-fight. Vegeta has observed this trait, especially during high-stakes encounters, like the fights with Vegeta himself and Freeza. This dynamic skill set implies that Goku’s ability to tap into new power makes him less predictable in scaling terms, which adds to this infinite debate.

But has he ever closed gargantual gaps such as the one going from below Super Buu to above Ultimate Gohan just with skills alone?
I've never seen that, ever. Only DBS Broly was shown to do such a thing without relying on transformations or special techniques. Nappa improved a bit mid-fight, so did DBS Bardock, but nothing as big as required here.

Also, if that had ever happened, we probably would've gotten a more straightforward commentary rather than the overall take about Goku's fighting prowess. To add to that, Goku didn't actually break any limits during that fight, he would've won in that form if that had been the case.

[Hugo Boss]

In this case, I mean Goku’s gradual increase mid-battle is more about using his fighting instincts to steadily adapt, instead of a massive power boost. This adaptation isn’t necessarily an instant leap like Broly’s, but a skill-based edge that lets Goku bring out his best at critical points.

If that could be enough to bridge the gap between him and Boo’s other forms, that’s unknown. I think it might depend on the circumstances and how good his energy management would be.

[Gogetason]

The text describes Kid Boo’s danger as his uncontrollable nature and pure malevolence, it doesn’t state he is objectively stronger than all other forms. When Elder Kaioshin refers to him as the “most troublesome,” he’s discussing Kid Boo’s lack of self-restraint and return to “evil itself,” rather than suggesting a direct power comparison across all forms.

Kid Boo is “troublesome” for his chaotic evilness, but that doesn’t equate to superiority in sheer power, unless it’s stated or implied (in this case they are talking about Kid Boo transitioning into Fat Boo, so the implication is that Kid Boo is more powerful than Fat Boo). Super Boo’s calculated evil could make him more dangerous in certain contexts.

As I said before that would be a very inconsequential thing to make a note of on its own when super buu demonstrated he was already very dangerous. Plus Kid buu is as dangerous as a monkey with an ak47 while super buu is as dangerous as a evil man with a ak47. Think about it, if kid buu turned out to be as weak as cell would the kais really be worried and call him the most troublesome one? Its not simply a distinction of whos more evil between the buus. which is why its stated he lost power through absorptions. How did he loose power because of the kais, and how did he become less evil because of the kais, buu power and evilness is relative to the kais effect. And its that relationship the elderkais deduction is based off of. Super buu and fat buu has the kais in them so their less evil and weaken versions of kid buu and as a result they're less troublesome.

[Hugo Boss]

The Kaioshins’ “troublesome” label for Kid Boo is a less direct way of describing his chaotic nature in relation to the other Boos, while Kibitoshin’s comment about Kid Boo losing power directly refers to Fat Boo.

When we reach Super Boo, we’re looking at a powered-up version of Fat Boo, who managed to minimize the Grand Kaioshin’s suppressive influence. For instance, it’s possible that Super Boo managed to get back the power he lost and on top of that he had intelligence.

[Koitsukai]

When we reach Super Boo, we’re looking at a powered-up version of Fat Boo, who managed to minimize the Grand Kaioshin’s suppressive influence. For instance, it’s possible that Super Boo managed to get back the power he lost and on top of that he had intelligence.

I think it's more than possible. It's what the narrative was going for, Fat Buu's full power was locked due to the DKS' influence, but the split and internal rearrangement of Buu unlocked all of that and let him use the divine power he had absorbed. That's how he went from below SS3 Goku(confirmed in the end to be strong enough to kill Fat Buu) to being SS3's boogie man, who could make him run for the hills. And after losing that divine power, back to SS3 tier as shown.

The calming down/reduction effect ended when Fat Buu split, people seem to think that was still going on for Buuhan, but Toriyama was extremely clear with this in the form of Super Buu's birth.

[Hugo Boss]

Solid points, indeed. I would only challenge the idea that Super Boo lost the divine power. Kid Boo actually retained it after the split, but apparently it didn’t directly affect his own strength. This hints that while Super Boo gained more power after absorbing Fat Boo, the “downgrade” to Kid Boo might actually be more of a sidegrade. Kid Boo lacks Super Boo’s intelligence and control, which made Super Boo more formidable in combat, yet Kid Boo’s unrestrained demeanor brings an unique edge in certain situations, explaining the Kaioshins’ concern without negating Super Boo’s strength.

[Koitsukai]

Solid points, indeed. I would only challenge the idea that Super Boo lost the divine power. Kid Boo actually retained it after the split, but apparently it didn’t directly affect his own strength. This hints that while Super Boo gained more power after absorbing Fat Boo, the “downgrade” to Kid Boo might actually be more of a sidegrade. Kid Boo lacks Super Boo’s intelligence and control, which made Super Boo more formidable in combat, yet Kid Boo’s unrestrained demeanor brings an unique edge in certain situations, explaining the Kaioshins’ concern without negating Super Boo’s strength.

Oh, with divine I meant the power of the DKS, not the actual divine ki Uub ended up getting.
I'm not sure what role the divine ki played in that arc, given that it wasn't a thing back then, I'd rather not go into that because it's just up in the air. Some say the divine ki was what let Buu push back the Genkidama, but the original idea behind that was that Kid Buu was strong enough to do so, I prefer the original take.

[DBZ Macky]

It took me an embarrassingly long half-a-minute to put together that the DKS stands for Dai Kaio Shin.
In any case I think everyone can agree that Pure Boo (Vs. The Genkidama) >> Pure Boo (Vs. SS3 Goku), right?

If so, then I don't see why he can't be the strongest Boo, at least in the Anime. He fought SS2 Goku for a while in the Anime and even in the Manga Vegeta held on for like a minute so it's clear that lil' bro was just not giving it his best.

There are two tiers, fusion tier and non-fusion tier, one is clearly stronger than the other, and the narrative was even clearer.

I see it as more than just 2 tiers.

Super Vegito Tier
Super Vegito

Genkidama Tier
Goku (w. Genkidama) - Has Ultimate Gohan's and a bajillion other people's Genki
Pure Boo (Vs. Genkidama) - Beyond the strength that he can actually use in battle

2x Fusion Tier
Base Vegito
Buuhan (Anime) - Pushed base Vegito back a bit, it seems like his power increases with his anger like Gohan
Goku (w. Ryu-ken, etc.) - His techniques make him stronger than Gohan in the Anime continuity
Buuhan (Manga)
Buutenks

Fusion Tier
Ultimate Gohan
Buff Buu
SS3 Gotenks
Buuccolo
Super Buu

Non-Fusion Top Tier
SS3 Goku
Pure Boo (Not Messing Around)
SS2 Goku = SS2 Vegeta
SS Gotenks - Surpassed Vegeta and co. after the RoSaT according to Daizenshuu 7. So should be weaker than them without SS3 imo.

[Gogetason]

The Kaioshins’ “troublesome” label for Kid Boo is a less direct way of describing his chaotic nature in relation to the other Boos, while Kibitoshin’s comment about Kid Boo losing power directly refers to Fat Boo.

When we reach Super Boo, we’re looking at a powered-up version of Fat Boo, who managed to minimize the Grand Kaioshin’s suppressive influence. For instance, it’s possible that Super Boo managed to get back the power he lost and on top of that he had intelligence.

I dont mean to be insulting but this is pure conjecture, overthinking in a simplistic manga for kids. Most troublesome is not a label given to a weaker character in dbz, especially when the one that was right before(super buu) is strong enough and evil enough to destroy the universe. Thats like saying if he was as strong as cell they would be worried and call him the most troublesome one, simply because hes completely evil or chaotic as you said, with everyone but piccolo there to easily take him out; In the saiyan saga Nappa for example would never be considered more troublesome than vegeta no matter how evil or crazy, even if he hit his head mid fight and went bat shit crazy; If there were both super buu and kid buu present at the same time if super buu was indeed stronger, it wouldnt make sense for the z fighters to be more worried about kid buu.

This isnt an anime about different techniques,abilities, weapons or status where danger level would be be "slightly harder" to differentiate/gauge/assess. Dbz simplistically has danger level = powerlevel..Like dont over think it man. Then you have the context "the heart of which he gain by going so far as to lower his power through absorption" in a kids manga what does that tell you? dont overthink or use headcannon. Its simple the kais weaken him, super buu also has the kias so super buu is also a weaken version of kid buu.

[Yuji]

Jaco vs Jiya?

Arale vs Neko Majin?