Non-thread-worthy discussions

[QuakingStar]

https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/v ... are_button

https://i.imgur.com/K0FBAqS.png

https://i.imgur.com/oCCABj6.png

Beast itself is unique to Gohan and is based off of the Awakenings he had as a child. This is true, but it is also said to be his true latent potential unleashed, same with Piccolo and his Orange Piccolo form. They are both in their Ultimate States when they awaken these forms as well which was also referred to as their true potential before. These are evolutions of their Ultimate States known as Super Awakenings and Toriyama also implies there is a possibility for Gohan to transform further. So uh, no. Evidence exists while you're just saying "nuh uh".

... Yeah like I said, Fan conjecture head canon, nothing about any of your "sources" say anything about his Ultimate form directly. Toriyama sure as hell didn't

It's just a Super Rage-boost (SSJ2 rehash) since Toriyama called Gohan's past rage boosts "awakenings"

Mad = Super saiyan
Madder = Ultimate Form
Maddest = Beast

All of Gohan's transformations in Super Hero are related to his rage.

Also how can Orange Piccolo be his "true potential" when Shenron stated he threw in a little extra?

Sorry, I'm not convinced by flowery language used in a trailer

Ultimate is the result of getting his Potential Unleashed by Old Kai and he only used rage ONCE to re-enter it from Super Saiyan, He is IN Ultimate when he awakens Beast. It's not different from him being in Super Saiyan when awakening Super Saiyan 2 via his rage, are you saying Super Saiyan 2 isn't connected to Super Saiyan?? Your logic implies that. The trailer is official and you not liking it means nothing. Not my fault you reallllllly want it to be something else completely. Again, all you got is "nuh uh" as I expected.

[The Monkey King]

It's not different from him being in Super Saiyan when awakening Super Saiyan 2 via his rage, are you saying Super Saiyan 2 isn't connected to Super Saiyan?? Your logic implies that.

The naming convention, appearance and arc of "transcending super saiyan" makes super saiyan 1 and 2 clearly related.

The name and appearance of Gohan's beast and ultimate form have no relation to each other.

If Toriyama wanted them to be related he would've named beast "Ultimate Beast" or something like that or had the forms keep Gohan's black hair.

It's a super rage boost form, nothing else.

The trailer is official and you not liking it means nothing.

The same trailer that called Orange Piccolo his "true potential" when it was a gift from Shenron? Okay buddy.

[Zephyr]

If all of his transformations are related to rage, then they are connected to one another in that way.

Not in the way I was talking about, making your post a moot point.

Alright, so they're unrelated in terms of name. Still related by rage (as of Super Hero), so people can, in fact, say that there is some relation beyond headcanon. It's fine if that's not enough to make you happy, but a relation is still a relation.

[QuakingStar]

It's not different from him being in Super Saiyan when awakening Super Saiyan 2 via his rage, are you saying Super Saiyan 2 isn't connected to Super Saiyan?? Your logic implies that.

The naming convention, appearance and arc of "transcending super saiyan" makes super saiyan 1 and 2 clearly related.

The name and appearance of Gohan's beast and ultimate form have no relation to each other.

If Toriyama wanted them to be related he would've named beast "Ultimate Beast" or something like that or had the forms keep Gohan's black hair.

It's a super rage boost form, nothing else.

The trailer is official and you not liking it means nothing.

The same trailer that called Orange Piccolo his "true potential" when it was a gift from Shenron? Okay buddy.

How do you know it was the form itself that was the gift? and not the ability to AWAKEN the form? He even says he awakened like Gohan did. You're the one using "conjectural head canon now" little guy.

[Noah]

I wonder if Toei learned from their past mistakes with DBS, since the animation for Daima's pilot is on point

[Grimlock]

Spoiler:

You say that these images you posted are your sources, but here's the thing: in this particular image, the word "canonical" doesn't hold much water because it was not Shueisha that stated it, it was Viz. Viz has no authority to establish a canon. So whatever they state is invalid. The Japanese image says "正統続編", but good luck translating that ambiguous thing.

(By the way, we knew for a fact that it was Viz that translated that display, but we lost the source now).

Spoiler:

So you say that Dragon Ball Super (manga) is canonical because Toriyama said "perfect continuation of my work"? Okay, but before we go any further, what do you say about this statement from Toriyama?

[Rafa Fast]

Spoiler:

You say that these images you posted are your sources, but here's the thing: in this particular image, the word "canonical" doesn't hold much water because it was not Shueisha that stated it, it was Viz. Viz has no authority to establish a canon. So whatever they state is invalid. The Japanese image says "正統続編", but good luck translating that ambiguous thing.

(By the way, we knew for a fact that it was Viz that translated that display, but we lost the source now).

Spoiler:

So you say that Dragon Ball Super (manga) is canonical because Toriyama said "perfect continuation of my work"? Okay, but before we go any further, what do you say about this statement from Toriyama?

Hmmm>.< why suddenly change threads? I'm confused, anyway, Viz keeps trolling me, can I even trust anything that is written in English?
About the Toriyama comment though, I don't see much, where does "250 years after the manga" contradict Super being canon to the DB manga?

[Grimlock]

Hmmm>.< why suddenly change threads?

Because it's against the rules to go off-topic.

can I even trust anything that is written in English?

No. Best to have the original Japanese text at hand and have a reliable translator around (two translators is more ideal).

About the Toriyama comment though, I don't see much, where does "250 years after the manga" contradict Super being canon to the DB manga?

It doesn't. I'm checking to see if there are double standards. If Toriyama simply saying "continuation of the manga" is enough for that work to be canonical, then surely it means Dragon Ball Online is canonical too, right?

[Rafa Fast]

Hmmm>.< why suddenly change threads?

Because it's against the rules to go off-topic.

Makes sense, though I also went off topic and my posts are still in the Daima forum, maybe it's because I made briefly mention to that show.

About the Toriyama comment though, I don't see much, where does "250 years after the manga" contradict Super being canon to the DB manga?

It doesn't. I'm checking to see if there are double standards. If Toriyama simply saying "continuation of the manga" is enough for that work to be canonical, then surely it means Dragon Ball Online is canonical too, right?

It's not? The problem with Online is that I just can't check on its story in a decent way, apparently no one bothered to make videos showing it in detail, and everywhere i go (Kanzenshuu included) just leads me to a short summary of what happens and a timeline of events, which do tell about some of the story but not the actual thing at all, so I'm completely lost when it comes to that game.

Though I think someone consider questionable to think that a story made for a videogame that can't even be played anymore would still be considered to this day, with the producers (and maybe Toriyama himself) secretly dismissing it in order to work in a new story years later, Online has a lot of stuff going on and they would need to adress all of them, but there's no evidence for any of this, it's just a random personal thought.

So I just assumed that it's canon to the manga without questioning it, based on what I know about its story, I personally think that it happens in a different timeline(s), just like Trunks' timelime, it's part of the canon but it's not the core story that we all follow in the normal timeline, Jaco and Super, it's either that, or something like Neko Majin Z, but correct me if I'm wrong.

[Grimlock]

Though I think someone consider questionable to think that a story made for a videogame that can't even be played anymore would still be considered to this day,

The availability of a thing is irrelevant. We have two movies mentioning Tarble, who's a character from an OVA and manga that are only available in Japan and no one bats an eye to that. You only know about the existence of Tarble because of the Internet (and maybe Raging Blast 2), if it weren't for it, no one in the West would have a clue about who "Vegeta's brother" is. If the Tarble OVA and manga are canonical under these circumstances, then so can Dragon Ball Online be canonical as well. Regardless if it's a dead game.

So I just assumed that it's canon to the manga without questioning it, based on what I know about its story, I personally think that it happens in a different timeline(s), just like Trunks' timelime, it's part of the canon but it's not the core story that we all follow in the normal timeline, Jaco and Super, it's either that, or something like Neko Majin Z, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Dragon Ball Online was created specifically to be the sequel to the manga, set 216 years after Goku leaves the 28th tournament with Uub, so no, it's not in a different timeline, it's the present, "normal timeline" as you put it. But all right, you think Dragon Ball Online is canonical, so no double stardards at play here. Everything is as it should be. So with this out of the way, let's get to the actual conversation:

Dragon Ball now has like 8 different alternate futures (GT, Daima, Super - Anime, Super - Manga, Super - Movies, Heroes, Xenoverse, Online). And that's not even counting the original DB/Z anime/manga deviations and extra material like Bardock, the Trunks special and the Z movies.

I mean, it's useful to know what connects where, but discussing whether any of these is the TRUE UNIVERSE is pointless, the reality is that none of them are. Just enjoy the stories.

It stops being pointless when the people working behind these stories clearly wants to tell us a message, Super was made as a "true" follow up to the Boo Saga from all perspectives, Toei, Toriyama, Toyotaro, despite all the contradictions and inconsistences, they were made as a direct (mid)sequel to the original manga, when promoting Super they clearly show that it's different from GT, would they even bother doing this if Super was just another random sequel? Yeah, GT was a sequel too, but to the Z anime, Toei's version of the story, Super is partially Toriyama, so it has its own manga, made INTENDED to be a follow up to the Boo Saga, what happens with Super having 3 versions is simply that Anime and Manga are different as always, Toei makes its own version, a version of the real story that is the manga, you can tell how even them care about continuity when Toei decides to make Super as a sequel to the manga, and not a sequel to the Z anime or a alternate version of it where GT didn't happen, so even Toei shows that they have a belief of which is the true story,

You can give the fuck to continuity as you want, but saying that it's POINTLESS to discuss it is basically saying that the work of hundreds of fans who spend their time trying to understand how theses stories works, the multiple youtube videos that try to explain them, wikis etc, are all useless and have no reason to exist, also, Toei, Toriyama and Toyotaro themselves and all the efforts they made to keep things as consistent as possible is useless and makes no sense to exist.
Sounds a bit rude to me.

You seem to be one of many, many people who confuse "canonicity" with "continuity". Luckily for you, I already explained the difference between these two distinctive words. Yeah, they are not synonymous, and they can't be used interchangeably. To be in continuity with something does not necessarily means that work is canonical and vice versa, to be out of continuity with something does not necessarily means that work is not canonical.

To discuss continuity is pointless because we all know when events happen and in which order they happen. To discuss canonicity is pointless because no canon has been established in Dragon Ball. You can have your own opinion on the matter "I consider this canonical, I consider that non-canonical", but you have to keep in mind, at all times, that it is your opinion. It is not a fact, no official material supports your opinion. So to treat them as if they were true in any discussion is not cool, it is not appropriate and it will not make your arguments any more solid (in fact, it has the exact opposite intended results).

Super may have "3.5" different continuities, but I can say that the manga at least in specific is a true continuation of the DB manga

No, you cannot say that. You can treat it as your preferred continuity to follow, but it does not make those who prefer the anime or the movies invalid. Here's another thing:

Kami to Kami was probably originally made to be canon to the DB manga, but once the DBS manga arrived, they discarded the movie and now only manga BoG is canon,

But how can that be if the manga version of Movie 14 was done by Toyotaro? Are you putting Toyotaro and his manga above Toriyama and his movie?

If we all, somehow, collectively agree that everything Toriyama does is canonical, it means other interpretations done by other people would automatically not be considered canonical, right? So why does the manga "overwrite" the movie here? Remember that we don't have any information that Toriyama worked on the retellings.

but for me makes no sense to say that we should "accept that these are all different continuities" when the official information try to tell us a message, that message specifically being that Toyotaro's manga is the true sequel to Toriyama's manga, that's what they want us to accept, and not what you said,

Dragon Ball Super itself has three different and separated continuities: the movies, the anime and the manga. There is no official information "trying to tell you a message" that only what Toyotaro does is the "real deal". There is no conspiracy, no uprising behind the scenes going on against any of them. This is all stuff from your head. Toyotaro is not the be-all and end-all, the sole master, the highest creative force entity. Others have as much right and enjoyment to consider the anime or the movies as you have for the manga. And that is fine.

as I said to another user before, the fandom wouldn't be discussing about if didn't exist,

Canon doesn't exist in the Dragon Ball franchise. "Fandom" wastes time discussing it because they borrow this from franchises that do have an official canon.

why do you think that there are still discussions to this day regarding how the hell the Old Z Movies officially fit into the DB-Z-GT anime continuity even with their huge contradictions?

Because people don't actually understand Multiverse. They think Dragon Ball is a linear story, that there is only a straight line. They couldn't be more wrong.

[Rafa Fast]

I know what you meant to say here, but sorry you're a bit late, someone else already made your job, check out the replies in Daima Ep 1 thread if interested, I already concluded that I was wrong and all that was truly said was that Toriyama said that both anime and manga of Super (and BoG) are continuations to his manga, nothing more, sorry for wasting your times ~☆

[Grimlock]

This is far from being concluded if even after "apologizing" you insist on being wrong by later going around saying, in the same post, that "Dragon Ball Super is the one true sequel to his manga". It is outright (spreading) misinformation, which is a big no-no on a website that prides itself on accuracy and truth. You may want to stop that.

[Rafa Fast]

This is far from being concluded, you insist on being wrong by later going around saying, in the same post, that "Dragon Ball Super is the one true sequel to his manga".

No, it is concluded, what happened is that I simply I wrote that post before reading your post (and it was also made before you posted your latter post), still, I made corrections twice to what I said because I didn't said Dragon Ball Super is the one true sequel to his manga, read the post again, I said that Dragon Ball Super is the "one" true sequel to his manga, with "one" written in quotes because I didn't mean in the same way I was talking before, but rather to referr to what I wrote directly after that claim:

but It's important to remember that this can also be said because Super is the only true continuation that we have, the other being the 2008 Tarble story and now probably Daima, which are connected to Super, the only other "sequel" we had was GT and GT was never meant to be a continuation of the DB manga

I said this because I was sure that Super (along with 2008 OVA and Daima, which are all connected) was the only production made where it was officially stated to be a sequel to Toriyama's work, which didn't happen to GT, GT was officially confirmed to be a sequel to the Z anime only, that's why in that post I said that Super is the only sequel to Toriyama's manga, I wasn't aware about Online when I said that, then you came up with the stuff about Online, then I corrected myself again, and then after that, in my previous post (in this thread, which was made after the post you linked to) all I said was that Super is a continuation to Toriyama's manga, both the anime, manga and movie, and no more the ONLY TRUEST sequel I was saying before as now I learned that there is more than one (or 3, if separating the 3 "versions" of Super) production that was considered to be a sequel to Toriyama's manga (and I said this after the last post where I spread misinformation, and before the post where you said that I'm still spreading misinformation)
Which is true and not a misinformation: [1][2]
So yes this is concluded and I already apologized and corrected all of the remaining misinformation I gave sir, peace.

[Peach]

Do you think Sorbet, Tagoma, Shisami, and Kikono were subordinates of Abo & Kado (The Frieza Force commanders from Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return)?

I always thought it was strange that Toei never remade the events from Yo! Son Goku & His Friends Return as a prelude to Resurrection F. Also thought it was weird that Abo & Kado weren't in the Super anime or the Resurrection F movie as background characters. I was always under the impression that Toriyama penned the script for the Ova. He even references Vegeta's brother in the scripts for Battle of Gods & Broly.

[Rafa Fast]

Do you think Sorbet, Tagoma, Shisami, and Kikono were subordinates of Abo & Kado (The Frieza Force commanders from Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return)?

I always thought it was strange that Toei never remade the events from Yo! Son Goku & His Friends Return as a prelude to Resurrection F. Also thought it was weird that Abo & Kado weren't in the Super anime or the Resurrection F movie as background characters. I was always under the impression that Toriyama penned the script for the Ova. He even references Vegeta's brother in the scripts for Battle of Gods & Broly.

Really have no idea, I mean, they are commanders? I ask because all I remember is that in the manga it's said that they wanted to rule Freeza's force, but it's left ambiguous if they really ever commanded it as far as i know.
Though I think it makes sense to think that they were superiors for Sorbet and the others during that time (before the end of 2008 OVA), Shisami and Tagoma were considered to be Zarbon & Dodoria level (though there is that problem with fight with Piccolo & Gohan lately), and Abo & Cado are far beyond that, but that's never shown or mentioned.

My personal belief is that they were just forgotten, really doubt Toriyama cared in remembering about them during the time of Fukkatsu no 'F' production, and even if he did, there would be no reason for him to brimg them back, they turned good in the end of the story and it was never said what happened to them later. 2008 OVA is just a special little story that was made and Toriyama decided to make it take place after Boo Saga, I don't think he ever intended to give it the same treatment he gave to the Jaco manga, where he really wanted to establish a "prequel" to his manga with a character that he would later use on the present timeline.

Sure, Tarble is mentioned in Super, but the story where he appears is not made to be a "must watch" material, specially how redundant the the events that happen there are for Super, so Toriyama addressed what he considered to be one of the (maybe the only) important elements from this story, which is Vegeta'a brother. But all the rest was never brought up as he probably never cared about them at all, ao for that reason, we'll never know what happened to the two, giving no resson for them to not appear in BoG, Fukkatsu no F, or any Super related content, specially considering that they became good in the end.

[hembro]

does anyone know anything about the Malaysian Kanzenban releases in English? like what translation they use or if they're censored or whatnot? I was screwing around on eBay the other day, because after years of being pretty out of the DB fandom recently I've been all in again. I knew a guy a few years ago who was buying Malaysian copies of the Super manga because he said they got volumes in English out faster and he was keeping up with them.

I have no idea if it was the same as the current VIZ translation or not. I was pretty out of the scene at the time and I didn't read the Super manga until Super Hero came out and I just read it on VIZs website. Anyways I bring this up because as a kid/teenager in the 00s and early 10s I used to have all of the VIZ volumes of the original manga and I sold them at some point or lost them moving or something and I recently decided I wanted new copies and the versions I saw at a bookstore recently were pretty heavily censored. not that seeing bulma's boobs are a big deal to me but regardless I'd rather have it as it was, and if the translation is possibly different that would be a bonus.

I was planning on after getting new copies in English getting either the Kanzenbans or the digest editions to have them in original Japanese (leaning towards the digests because I like the JUMP magazine look to them) but I can't read Japanese regardless I just wanted an uncensored and original version of them to flip through but saw there are English language Kanzenban printings from Malaysia. If they're just the same as VIZ censorship but in that format ill probably just suck it up and buy the 3 in 1s and get the Japanese version or digests for color pages and uncensored art.

[demonontheleft]

I have no idea if it was the same as the current VIZ translation or not. I was pretty out of the scene at the time and I didn't read the Super manga until Super Hero came out and I just read it on VIZs website. Anyways I bring this up because as a kid/teenager in the 00s and early 10s I used to have all of the VIZ volumes of the original manga and I sold them at some point or lost them moving or something and I recently decided I wanted new copies and the versions I saw at a bookstore recently were pretty heavily censored. not that seeing bulma's boobs are a big deal to me but regardless I'd rather have it as it was, and if the translation is possibly different that would be a bonus.

Okay so I know what you're talking about, those specific kanzenbans aren't official releases, they're bootlegs. From a video I saw on a mercari's sellers page they have a totally different translation inside of them but also they don't have any of the colored pages.

I don't know the quality of the translation inside of those, but if you want a new collection of Dragon Ball I know that the regular small paperbacks aren't super censored compared to the vizbigs. Plus you can get the boxset for cheaper than usual on amazon right now. (At the time of writing the Z box set with Vol's 17-42 are currently half off)

[hembro]

I have no idea if it was the same as the current VIZ translation or not. I was pretty out of the scene at the time and I didn't read the Super manga until Super Hero came out and I just read it on VIZs website. Anyways I bring this up because as a kid/teenager in the 00s and early 10s I used to have all of the VIZ volumes of the original manga and I sold them at some point or lost them moving or something and I recently decided I wanted new copies and the versions I saw at a bookstore recently were pretty heavily censored. not that seeing bulma's boobs are a big deal to me but regardless I'd rather have it as it was, and if the translation is possibly different that would be a bonus.

Okay so I know what you're talking about, those specific kanzenbans aren't official releases, they're bootlegs. From a video I saw on a mercari's sellers page they have a totally different translation inside of them but also they don't have any of the colored pages.

I don't know the quality of the translation inside of those, but if you want a new collection of Dragon Ball I know that the regular small paperbacks aren't super censored compared to the vizbigs. Plus you can get the boxset for cheaper than usual on amazon right now. (At the time of writing the Z box set with Vol's 17-42 are currently half off)

Interesting, I sort of assumed they were bootlegs but I'm definitely disappointed in the lack of color pages but I'm glad to know that. I'm interested in seeing how the translation is but probably not enough to bite the bullet and buy a set. maybe if they were easily available individually it might be interesting to pick up 3 or 4 random volumes and give em a look.

The box set is of the volumes I had years ago, but I wasn't sure if VIZ has censored them more over the years because I had a friend with some of them too in high school and I don't remember the specific example but a volume he had was censored in a way mine wasn't. like I said it's not that big of a deal to me, I always have scans and would like just for the shelf the Japanese editions anyways so I might scoop up the box sets just to be economical. thanks for the info! someday I might get the Malaysian ones out of curiosity because I wonder if whoever printed them did their own in house thing or used a scanlation or what.

As a kid I had a few Pokémon mangas and whatever website my mom ordered one of the english volumes off of sent one from I believe Singapore. I think it was an Electric Tale of Pikachu volume and it was interesting because at some point I compared the one issue of the monthly I had of the same volume and they used the exact same translation but also included a section cut that had a bath scene or something like that. Dragon Ball is different because nothing is flat out missing in the VIZ versions, just some visual censorship and I wondered about terminology or dialogue differences.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Has there ever been any licensed Dragon Ball media in Malaysia?

I know the Speedy Video releases were bootleg, but never heard of any localized legal products.

[hembro]

Has there ever been any licensed Dragon Ball media in Malaysia?

I know the Speedy Video releases were bootleg, but never heard of any localized legal products.

I'm not sure about home media but when I was searching for information on those English language books I came across a few web pages that mentioned that it aired on a tv channel called NTV7 dubbed in the Malay language and there were tankobon released under the localized title Mutiara Naga which translates to Dragon Pearl. I'd assume at least the television broadcasts were legal and the manga possibly too. I think the majority of the bootleg stuff is the English language releases like Speedy, the manga volumes I mentioned and the smorgasbord of cheap DVD compilations that you used to see all over flea markets and internet storefronts with like all 13 movies with various mixed english dubs on one disc or whatever.

I'm assuming it was super popular there because I also saw a photo that in Kampar there, someone put up a huge memorial mural on a building of Toriyama and DB characters.