Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

[MisteryOne]

It will be hard to judge the charactwrs if they really rely on weapons and magic, it's exciting!
Neva being so strong on its youth is an amusing idea. I wouldn't put them past a Piccolo Daimao situation just to fight kid Goku. He really must have been above Daburs when he was younger.

As for the guardians of the DBs, I assume those will be the powerful enemies this arc excluding spoilers. Unlike other people I'm not bothered by their designs so it would be nice to see them fight and push Goku to SS2. Then maybe save SS3 for the final villain? It depends on what Vegeta and the others are dealing with on Earth.

[Yasai9001]

An important detail to note is that Ki is not the core method of power in the Demon Realm. It seems that they mostly rely on magic and technology. So while some of the Demon Realm characters might not end up being strong in a traditional sense, their use of advanced magic and technology might just close that gap.

Exactly this. I am not of the idea that the power-scaling is going to get ridiculous and contradict events that take place from Battle of Gods and forward into Super. If they were to do something like that, I wouldn't be surprised. Thing is Toriyama said, just like you said, that the Demon Realm revolves around Magic and their advanced tech.

This in combination is more than enough for me to think that this won't be just about fighting. Goku and the others are likely to approach people in the Demon Realm with combat strength, using their fighting skills; when you have creatures like Bibidi, Babidi and Moro with super strong magic, doing whatever they want and however they want in the outside world, makes one question all types of dangerous, cool, and unprecedented magic we will get to witness to be as strong, and if not, stronger than Goku and co.

I don't see anything scaling the equivalent or beyond that of Super's feats, unless they introduce some deity equivalent to Beerus and Whis in the Demon Realm. That's the only thing that would make sense. In fact, it would be more fitting if they had individuals with roles like Beerus and Whis in the Demon Realm, albeit they also be much weaker compared to the super strong Gods in all the other universes in the outside world.

[Thani]

To be fair, the impression I had when watching it was that Gomah and Degesu weren't surprised that Goku and co could fly and shoot ki blasts by itself. They were more surprised that creatures besides demons and gods could do it.

Sure, the Demon Realm may focus more on magic and tech, but, like, Dabra was a thing. There's nothing to say that there aren't other demons proficient in martial arts and all. Gomah and Degesu are just not combat oriented, is all.

[Yuji]

Just remembered Gotenks and Gohan should be several times stronger than Goku but the narrator already calls Goku the strongesr of all

[DBZ Macky]

Just remembered Gotenks and Gohan should be several times stronger than Goku but the narrator already calls Goku the strongesr of all

I chalk that up to Goku being more resourceful and having better techniques like the Genki Dama and Dragon Fist every time something like that is mentioned. The Genki Dama Goku used against Buu should be logically stronger than Gohan (Or at least his Genki, which is like 1/3rd of his overall Ki?) and I don't find it hard to believe, "canonicity" be damned, that Goku developed the Dragon Fist very soon after defeating Buu and is able to eke out a win against the likes of Hirudegarn where Gohan jobbed hard.

Degesu and Dr. Arinsu: I believe both of them should be relative to Shin in terms of power. Degesu is likely the stronger and more skilled fighter of the two, but Arinsu is clearly smarter and more cunning.

Gomah: Weaker than the Kaioshin/Makaioshin. Depending on what we see from him he might be relative to Babidi in terms of magical ability. The Evil Third Eye might boost his magic way further so we shall see about that.

Neva: Definitely the most powerful Dragon Clan Namekian. He is above Kami, Dende, Guru, Moori, and Monaito.

Tamagami: Considering how the Demon Realm Dragon Balls have not been used in a long time due to these guys. all three are likely stronger than Dabura and by extension, Cell. Exactly how powerful these guys will be is unknown for now, but they are definitely being hyped up to be incredibly strong.

This is pretty much what I think as well. I don't know about Gomah, though. The Wafer Stickers, (I hope you guys remember them and know what I'm talking about) as iffy as they are, have Gomah being pretty weak but Shin says he's pretty strong apart from being crafty so I can see this going one of two ways:

1. It's a Pui-Pui situation and Shin's just scared of everyone.

2. Gomah can transform. This makes more sense to me since Degesu treats him as his superior. They should still be weaker than Dabura though. Also he just looks like a Dragon Quest villain that has a weaker first form and a demonic/draconic final form.

As for the Tamagami, I think (especially after the opening) that the weaker ones will be Super Saiyan tier with the strongest one being stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Vegeta forcing either of them into Super Saiyan 3 which they probably wouldn't be able to use normally a la GT.

[Hugo Boss]

The Wafer Stickers, (I hope you guys remember them and know what I'm talking about) as iffy as they are, have Gomah being pretty weak but Shin says he's pretty strong apart from being crafty

All right, so I checked the scans featuring Daima merchandise and, to my surprise, Shin and his siblings are portrayed as weaker than Glorio, but more importantly, weaker than Piccolo and Base Goku and Base Vegeta in their chibi forms.

[Thani]

As for the Tamagami, I think (especially after the opening) that the weaker ones will be Super Saiyan tier with the strongest one being stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Vegeta forcing either of them into Super Saiyan 3 which they probably wouldn't be able to use normally a la GT.

The Tamagami I expect to be even stronger than Dabra, so each of them would at least be high on the SS2 tier. Probably not on Buu's level, though.

[ZombieVito]

The Wafer Stickers, (I hope you guys remember them and know what I'm talking about) as iffy as they are, have Gomah being pretty weak but Shin says he's pretty strong apart from being crafty

All right, so I checked the scans featuring Daima merchandise and, to my surprise, Shin and his siblings are portrayed as weaker than Glorio, but more importantly, weaker than Piccolo and Base Goku and Base Vegeta in their chibi forms.

They have base Goku and Vegeta > Piccolo.



Hopefully not a sign of things to come.

[DBZ Macky]

The Wafer Stickers, (I hope you guys remember them and know what I'm talking about) as iffy as they are, have Gomah being pretty weak but Shin says he's pretty strong apart from being crafty

All right, so I checked the scans featuring Daima merchandise and, to my surprise, Shin and his siblings are portrayed as weaker than Glorio, but more importantly, weaker than Piccolo and Base Goku and Base Vegeta in their chibi forms.

They have base Goku and Vegeta > Piccolo.



Hopefully not a sign of things to come.

Well this time we can just handwave it as Piccolo having lost more power than the Saiyans the same way Dende became a baby like Goten and Trunks despite being like at least 10+ years older. Though, going by the opening, it seems like Piccolo would be around the same level as Super Saiyan Vegeta as he should be.

Glorio being portrayed as stronger than Gomah, Degesu and Arinsu is weird because at that point why doesn't he just defeat them himself? Either this is another hint at the fact that Gomah can transform or power levels the wafer stickers are B.S.

[Hugo Boss]

Glorio being portrayed as stronger than Gomah, Degesu and Arinsu is weird because at that point why doesn't he just defeat them himself? Either this is another hint at the fact that Gomah can transform or power levels the wafer stickers are B.S.

Perhaps this is because the demon realm doesn’t favor battle power as much as magic, so while Glorio could be a little better in combat skill, our antagonists may be very powerful in magic. That would justify for example switching Gohan vs. Dabra’s fight location.

[Almighty Majin]

Perhaps this is because the demon realm doesn’t favor battle power as much as magic, so while Glorio could be a little better in combat skill, our antagonists may be very powerful in magic. That would justify for example switching Gohan vs. Dabra’s fight location.

Pretty much this. This was something that was established during the Gohan vs Dabura fight indeed.

I will borrow from the strength checker thread:

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.1-4
Context: after Kaioshin again warns against unleashing Boo
Vegeta: “Hmph…The way things are going, this ‘Majin Boo’ guy isn’t going to be anything special, is he? Just like that ‘Dabra’ jerk…[ ] I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…”
Kaioshin: “…Is-is that true, Son Goku?...”
Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…”

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? He’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

Here we can see that Goku was able to determine that Dabura was relative to Cell's battle power by sensing his Ki specifically. Goku cannot sense magic so once he saw that Dabura was capable of utilizing magic as well, he changed his view and determined that Dabura is stronger than he initially assessed and that he must not be underestimated. The same logic will apply to fighters in the Demon Realm as well. Their magical or technological capabilities will make up for what they may end up lacking in raw battle power.

[ZombieVito]

Well this time we can just handwave it as Piccolo having lost more power than the Saiyans the same way Dende became a baby like Goten and Trunks despite being like at least 10+ years older. Though, going by the opening, it seems like Piccolo would be around the same level as Super Saiyan Vegeta as he should be.

Glorio being portrayed as stronger than Gomah, Degesu and Arinsu is weird because at that point why doesn't he just defeat them himself? Either this is another hint at the fact that Gomah can transform or power levels the wafer stickers are B.S.

The thing is, they didn't comment about losing power so maybe they didn't despite Gomah saying it.

There's also the problem of making Piccolo too strong since he's still weaker than SS Gohan in RoF, who is already weaker than his CG self.

[Almighty Majin]

The thing is, they didn't comment about losing power so maybe they didn't despite Gomah saying it.

It seems that the mini transformation just made their Ki control vastly unrefined compared to their regular states. On top of that, episode 2 shows us that they're physically unbalanced and are lacking in reach. So perhaps the nerf in overall battle power was not as substantial, but there are other factors that are a detriment to their total fighting capabilities.

There's also the problem of making Piccolo too strong since he's still weaker than SS Gohan in RoF, who is already weaker than his CG self.

Keep in mind that RoF Gohan is a rusty post-Z-Sword training Gohan who did get stronger to some degree.

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P12.3-5
Context: as Gohan trains with the Z Sword
Kaioshin: “…This is absolutely unbelievable…To think that he’d become able to swing the Z Sword around so much in such a short period of time.”
Gohan: “…Father gave it his all and continued training even after going to the afterlife…I’ve got to draw closer to him, even just a li-little bit…Because Ma-Majin Boo is still alive…!”

Chapter: 478 (DBZ 284), P12.5
Context: after Gohan practices with the Z Sword more
Goku: “That’s great! Amazin’, amazin’! I’m impressed that you seem to have mastered it so much in just 1 day!”
Kaioshin: “Magnificent!”

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

Just like how initial Buu arc Gohan is a rusty version of Cell Games Gohan, but grown up, RoF Gohan should pretty much be a rusty Z-Sword training Gohan. I know RoF Gohan is portrayed like ass, but he is likely stronger than we think, he just sucks at controlling his power because he is rusty and lost his fighting instincts during this time.

[ZombieVito]

The thing is, they didn't comment about losing power so maybe they didn't despite Gomah saying it.

It seems that the mini transformation just made their Ki control vastly unrefined compared to their regular states. On top of that, episode 2 shows us that they're physically unbalanced and are lacking in reach. So perhaps the nerf in overall battle power was not as substantial, but there are other factors that are a detriment to their total fighting capabilities.

There's also the problem of making Piccolo too strong since he's still weaker than SS Gohan in RoF, who is already weaker than his CG self.

Keep in mind that RoF Gohan is a rusty post-Z-Sword training Gohan who did get stronger to some degree.

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P12.3-5
Context: as Gohan trains with the Z Sword
Kaioshin: “…This is absolutely unbelievable…To think that he’d become able to swing the Z Sword around so much in such a short period of time.”
Gohan: “…Father gave it his all and continued training even after going to the afterlife…I’ve got to draw closer to him, even just a li-little bit…Because Ma-Majin Boo is still alive…!”

Chapter: 478 (DBZ 284), P12.5
Context: after Gohan practices with the Z Sword more
Goku: “That’s great! Amazin’, amazin’! I’m impressed that you seem to have mastered it so much in just 1 day!”
Kaioshin: “Magnificent!”

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

Just like how initial Buu arc Gohan is a rusty version of Cell Games Gohan, but grown up, RoF Gohan should pretty much be a rusty Z-Sword training Gohan. I know RoF Gohan is portrayed like ass, but he is likely stronger than we think, he just sucks at controlling his power because he is rusty and lost his fighting instincts during this time.

Future Trunks confirms CG Gohan > Zamasu Gohan when he meets him in episode 52.

[Almighty Majin]

Future Trunks confirms CG Gohan > Zamasu Gohan when he meets him in episode 52.

He does mention something to that effect, yes. I do find it odd however since Gohan at this point must have been training regularly with Piccolo since after Resurrection F. Gohan tells Piccolo he needs to train again, he is seen training right before the U6 Tournament and even at the end of the Goku Black arc when Trunks is about to leave. He must have been doing this consistently since by the time we get to the exhibition match for the ToP, he is able to defeat Lavender who should be relative to Basil who was putting up somewhat of a fight against Good Buu.

I viewed the scene in question again. To me, it seems more that Trunks is shocked by how different this current Gohan is in demeanor and overall presence compared to what he witnessed in the Cell Games. The settled down Gohan juxtaposed to the one from the Cell Games who wanted to torture Cell is quite jarring to witness.

I am aware that you could argue that it is more straightforward and that Cell Games Gohan > Black Arc Gohan and that's it. I am just saying it does not make much sense with what was being established within the series and that there is some wiggle room for interpretation.

[ZombieVito]

He does mention something to that effect, yes. I do find it odd however since Gohan at this point must have been training regularly with Piccolo since after Resurrection F. Gohan tells Piccolo he needs to train again, he is seen training right before the U6 Tournament and even at the end of the Goku Black arc when Trunks is about to leave. He must have been doing this consistently since by the time we get to the exhibition match for the ToP, he is able to defeat Lavender who should be relative to Basil who was putting up somewhat of a fight against Good Buu.

I viewed the scene in question again. To me, it seems more that Trunks is shocked by how different this current Gohan is in demeanor and overall presence compared to what he witnessed in the Cell Games. The settled down Gohan juxtaposed to the one from the Cell Games who wanted to torture Cell is quite jarring to witness.

I am aware that you could argue that it is more straightforward and that Cell Games Gohan > Black Arc Gohan and that's it. I am just saying it does not make much sense with what was being established within the series and that there is some wiggle room for interpretation.

I suppose if Daima does boost Piccolo to match SS Goku and Vegeta then we can rationalize that scene with Gohan and Trunks the way you did.

[DBZ Macky]

Doesn't this mean that Daima is going to prove that Kaioshin < Base Goku if (or really, when) the latter outperforms Glorio at any point further down the story?

[ZombieVito]

I really hope that doesn't happen.

The best thing BoG did was confirm Namek Freeza > Base Goku.

[Yuji]

Doesn't this mean that Daima is going to prove that Kaioshin < Base Goku if (or really, when) the latter outperforms Glorio at any point further down the story?

Yeah Daima may throw us back to the pre-BoG days of base Saiyans > Piccolo and Shin if Shin doesn't perform well in battle or their base forms outshine Piccolo too.

Though the OP does place Piccolo next to SS Vegeta, so if he's shown comparable to the SS Saiyans, I guess the only thing it recontextualizes is Piccolo being scared of Shin for his rank rather than his strength (and by proxy, the base Saiyans being stronger than Freeza too).

[LightBing]

The line is the first power scale comparison in Daima. Basic stuff, compare the two travelling companions.
That's a pretty great baseline for Glorio.

Ironically, if this cares about Super. Goku never saw Kaioshin fight and shouldn't be able to feel his Ki.
If we're petty, we should ignore Goku. Obviously this should be taken at face value.