The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Peach]

Wasn't Trunks able to fight Cell Jrs? What if he fights alongside SSJ Goten?

Shin is far stronger than a Cell Jr.

I disagree. A Cell Jr. is comparable to Perfect Cell, who is equal to Dabura. The Supreme Kai couldn't touch Dabura and needed help. Future Dabura killed him too.

I always saw Supreme Kai as Semi-Perfect Cell or Super Saiyan grade 2 level.

So Boohan is obviously stronger than Gohan, and you think Goku was stronger than Ultimate Gohan/Kid Boo/Boohan in the final battle, or at least could wipe him out with a full powered attack?

It doesn't really matter what I think. That's how Toriyama wrote it, for better or worse, and so that's just how it is.

Super Buu transformed into Buff Buu (South Supreme Kai absorbed) for a moment before turning into Kid Buu. When they said Buu's power was rising, it was in reference to Buff Buu (South Supreme Kai absorbed). Buu's power went down after Buff Buu transformed into Kid Buu. There's also a panel in the manga where Buuhan calls himself the most powerful Buu in the past and future.

Kid Buu is the most dangerous, not the most powerful. He has almost no cognition, can't be reasoned with, acts like a literal killing machine, is constantly on the move teleporting to planet to planet or to fighters, has no good within him. Super Buu could be delayed, bargained with to an extent, enjoyed eating, and goofed around more, and doesn't instantly blow up planets.

Super Saiyan 3 was only powerful enough to defeat the original Fat Buu and potentially Kid Buu. Super Saiyan 3 could defeat Kid Buu if powered up, but he wanted to give Vegeta a turn. Goku stood no chance against Super Buu and feared fighting him. Super Saiyan 3 stood no chance against Buff Buu or Super Buu in comparison. There was concern that Kid Buu's power could rise, but it never got a chance to rise beyond the other Buus to our knowledge.

[Hugo Boss]

I dont mean to be insulting but this is pure conjecture, overthinking in a simplistic manga for kids. Most troublesome is not a label given to a weaker character in dbz, especially when the one that was right before (super buu) is strong enough and evil enough to destroy the universe. (…)

It’s interesting that you’re suggesting I’m overthinking here, while you’re bringing a fair amount of projection into what you’re reading. The “most troublesome” label doesn’t inherently equate to the absolute highest power level, but rather references Kid Boo’s unpredictable nature (the subject of the conversation as you can see in the dialogue you quoted). You’re also interpreting the manga’s simplicity as only power-level focused, yet Dragon Ball often highlights complexity in threats, not just strength. Characters like Kid Boo are feared precisely because they act without restraint or logic, unlike Super Boo’s more approachable demeanor.

[Gogetason]

It’s interesting that you’re suggesting I’m overthinking here, while you’re bringing a fair amount of projection into what you’re reading. The “most troublesome” label doesn’t inherently equate to the absolute highest power level, but rather references Kid Boo’s unpredictable nature (the subject of the conversation as you can see in the dialogue you quoted). You’re also interpreting the manga’s simplicity as only power-level focused, yet Dragon Ball often highlights complexity in threats, not just strength. Characters like Kid Boo are feared precisely because they act without restraint or logic, unlike Super Boo’s more approachable demeanor.

Ok give me another example of this in dbz?

And the subject of the conversation is not about him being unpredictable. Nothing like that was mentioned, what was mentioned and with emphasis was him being "evil itself". But evilness alone ,or even "craziness" if you want to stick with fan translation, cant make him most dangerous/most troublesome.

And its even stated he lost power through absorbtion(s).

Super Buu transformed into Buff Buu (South Supreme Kai absorbed) for a moment before turning into Kid Buu. When they said Buu's power was rising, it was in reference to Buff Buu (South Supreme Kai absorbed). Buu's power went down after Buff Buu transformed into Kid Buu. There's also a panel in the manga where Buuhan calls himself the most powerful Buu in the past and future.

Kid Buu is the most dangerous, not the most powerful. He has almost no cognition, can't be reasoned with, acts like a literal killing machine, is constantly on the move teleporting to planet to planet or to fighters, has no good within him. Super Buu could be delayed, bargained with to an extent, enjoyed eating, and goofed around more, and doesn't instantly blow up planets.

Super Saiyan 3 was only powerful enough to defeat the original Fat Buu and potentially Kid Buu. Super Saiyan 3 could defeat Kid Buu if powered up, but he wanted to give Vegeta a turn. Goku stood no chance against Super Buu and feared fighting him. Super Saiyan 3 stood no chance against Buff Buu or Super Buu in comparison. There was concern that Kid Buu's power could rise, but it never got a chance to rise beyond the other Buus to our knowledge.

Not that I'm arguing buuhan<kid buu. But super buu most likely didnt include kid buu in his assessment of being the most powerful buu because he doesnt remember being kid buu, because that version is mindless remember. He even said when vegeta threatened to remove fat buu that he'd "cease to exist". So most likely he doesnt remember or know how strong his pure self is.

Kid buu cant be the most dangerous if hes weaker or worst.. far weaker than super buu, it makes no sense no matter how much you emphasize it, not in the context of dbz.

Kid buu> Gohan >super buu> /=ssj3 Goku could make sense in the narrative; Goku may have been "pushing above his wieght" or/and got stronger while fighting kid buu. Consider vegetas speech which is compounded by what he says while fighting kid buu:

Chapter: 511 (DBZ 317), P8.2
Context: as pure Boo beats up on Vegeta
Vegeta: “Wh-what fast and heavy attacks…! …Kakarot was…fighting with a gu-guy like this…?!”

Vegeta says this after already assessing kid buu and ssj3 goku strengh. Clearly doubtful Goku should be fighting someone that strong. I think it makes sense, vegeta cant properly sense buus ki and that Goku was fighting a much stronger fighter than himself, it wouldnt be the first time either.

[Hugo Boss]

Ok give me another example of this in dbz?

And the subject of the conversation is not about him being unpredictable. Nothing like that was mentioned, what was mentioned and with emphasis was him being "evil itself". But evilness alone ,or even "craziness" if you want to stick with fan translation, cant make him most dangerous/most troublesome.

And its even stated he lost power through absorbtion(s).

If you’re looking for other examples of danger beyond power level, here are a few to consider: Piccolo, Guldo, Ginyu, the androids, Cell, Yakon, Dabra, Fat Boo.

The conversation between the Kaioshins highlights how Bibidi struggled to control Kid Boo. When he absorbed the Grand Kaioshin and became Fat Boo, Bibidi finally managed to keep him under control, despite his power being still stupendously high. This context adds weight to the “most troublesome” label.

And the “loss of power” comment refers to Fat Boo. The absorption of the Grand Kaioshin was an exceptional case.

[Koitsukai]

I'm 90% sure that Buuhan referred to himself as the strongest MAJIN, including every version of evil(ma) beings(jin) that ever lived, otherwise it'd be like Beast Gohan saying I'm the strongest Gohan. Buuhan drawing the line at Super Buu is an arbitrary line drawn by fans, never by Toriyama.

Goku, the guy that wants to fight everybody no matter how strong they are, wants none of it when it comes to fighting Super Buu, and is more than confident to not only fight Kid Buu but also, after doing it for a while, that he can kill him with a certain amount of power the SS3 form can output.
Nothing can outweigh Toriyama having Goku at 3PM saying "we are still out of Super Buu's league" and by 4PM saying "I just need a teeny-bit of time to fully power up and erase Kid Buu for good as SS3".

Thinking Buu became weaker after absorbing Gotenks, Gohan or even the buffed Kaioshin literally goes against the narrative. Like Hugo said, it's Fat Buu who waters him down, and Super Buu is the one that puts an end to that.

Is there any better proof of Kid Buu being the most dangerous one than waking up and blowing up the planet he is standing on?... the other Buus spent days on that same planet eating food, travelling, sleeping, staring at an hourglass, walking around Kami's palace, going to a cake store, getting their face stomped yet they never pulled a RoF Freeza on the planet... Kid Buu's day one was like "gyaah" kabooom.

[Jack Bz]

I've said this before, but everything in the manga indicates that Kid Boo is weaker than even base Super Boo...but almost everything in all media afterwards has painted Goku as unquestionably the strongest on earth by the end and thus props up Kid Boo by association. I don't like it but it really does seem that that's the direction the franchise decided to go to.

[Gogetason]

If you’re looking for other examples of danger beyond power level, here are a few to consider: Piccolo, Guldo, Ginyu, the androids, Cell, Yakon, Dabra, Fat Boo.

The conversation between the Kaioshins highlights how Bibidi struggled to control Kid Boo. When he absorbed the Grand Kaioshin and became Fat Boo, Bibidi finally managed to keep him under control, despite his power being still stupendously high. This context adds weight to the “most troublesome” label.

And the “loss of power” comment refers to Fat Boo. The absorption of the Grand Kaioshin was an exceptional case.

You could include general blue, 19 and 20 too. but heres the thing all those that you mentioned except for maybe guldo to an extent are treated as less dangerous than other villians with higher powerlevels than them; Ginyu has a bodychange technique, but frieza is far more dangerous simply because he has a higher powerlevel similarly, 17 and 18 have unlimited energy but are less dangerous than cell simply because cell is more powerful. Beerus is more dangerous than buu, despite buu having an ability to turn people into candy.

Let me ask you some simple questions why do you think super buu is less evil than kid buu? Do you not think its because of the Grand kaioshins effect? It was never stated he gained power through absorbing the kais so why would super buu be stronger than kid buu?

[Hugo Boss]

I actually think it’s reasonable to view Kid Boo and Super Boo as two unique configurations of similar potential. Kid Boo’s battle instinct and unrestrained nature make him unpredictable, which, while powerful, lacks the calculated control and martial skill that Super Boo had.

The manga indicates that Grand Kaioshin’s influence somewhat tempered Majin Boo’s chaotic nature, making forms like Fat Boo and, by extension, Super Boo slightly more controlled. However, Super Boo regains a significant amount of raw power and cunning by combining the power of two Majin Boos. This is why he’s a “powered-up” form, but, more importantly, his strength lies in ki control and tactical thinking.

As for external sources, later portrayals like Dragon Ball Super did emphasize Goku’s role as Earth’s strongest. This sometimes appears to recontextualize Kid Boo’s threat by association, potentially emphasizing Kid Boo’s power relative to Super Boo more than initially shown. But the manga narrative itself emphasizes this final transformation as a distinct trade-off rather than a strict upgrade or downgrade, with each form uniquely dangerous in its own right.

[Hellspawn28]

Nail vs Tullece
Nail vs. Tullece: After eating the fruit

Who wins?

[ZombieVito]

I disagree. A Cell Jr. is comparable to Perfect Cell, who is equal to Dabura. The Supreme Kai couldn't touch Dabura and needed help. Future Dabura killed him too.

I always saw Supreme Kai as Semi-Perfect Cell or Super Saiyan grade 2 level.

A Cell Jr. is comparable to Vegeta and Trunks from the Cell Games. It's confirmed on official guidebooks.

[Peach]

A direct hit from Spike The Devil Man's Devilmite beam vs. Beerus

[Peach]

I've said this before, but everything in the manga indicates that Kid Boo is weaker than even base Super Boo...but almost everything in all media afterwards has painted Goku as unquestionably the strongest on earth by the end and thus props up Kid Boo by association. I don't like it but it really does seem that that's the direction the franchise decided to go to.

Goku is the strongest by the End of Z, Battle of Gods, and GT, not the end of Kid Buu. Once Gohan had stopped training and lost his Ultimate Form, he was weaker than Goku.

I'm 90% sure that Buuhan referred to himself as the strongest MAJIN, including every version of evil(ma) beings(jin) that ever lived, otherwise it'd be like Beast Gohan saying I'm the strongest Gohan. Buuhan drawing the line at Super Buu is an arbitrary line drawn by fans, never by Toriyama.

Goku, the guy that wants to fight everybody no matter how strong they are, wants none of it when it comes to fighting Super Buu, and is more than confident to not only fight Kid Buu but also, after doing it for a while, that he can kill him with a certain amount of power the SS3 form can output.
Nothing can outweigh Toriyama having Goku at 3PM saying "we are still out of Super Buu's league" and by 4PM saying "I just need a teeny-bit of time to fully power up and erase Kid Buu for good as SS3".

Thinking Buu became weaker after absorbing Gotenks, Gohan or even the buffed Kaioshin literally goes against the narrative. Like Hugo said, it's Fat Buu who waters him down, and Super Buu is the one that puts an end to that.

Is there any better proof of Kid Buu being the most dangerous one than waking up and blowing up the planet he is standing on?... the other Buus spent days on that same planet eating food, travelling, sleeping, staring at an hourglass, walking around Kami's palace, going to a cake store, getting their face stomped yet they never pulled a RoF Freeza on the planet... Kid Buu's day one was like "gyaah" kabooom.

I'm glad you understand. Buuhan literally said he was the strongest Buu. There's no reason not to take that comment at face value. Plus, Super Saiyan 3 even standing a chance against Kid Buu is evidence towards Kid Buu being weaker than Buuhan.

Nail vs Tullece
Nail vs. Tullece: After eating the fruit

Who wins?

Nail for sure

I disagree. A Cell Jr. is comparable to Perfect Cell, who is equal to Dabura. The Supreme Kai couldn't touch Dabura and needed help. Future Dabura killed him too.

I always saw Supreme Kai as Semi-Perfect Cell or Super Saiyan grade 2 level.

A Cell Jr. is comparable to Vegeta and Trunks from the Cell Games. It's confirmed on official guidebooks.

Then why did Vegeta and Trunks get beaten so badly against Cell Jr? And why wasn't Goku able to beat a Cell Jr? The guidebooks also said Ox King was stronger than King Piccolo and Goku at the start of Dragon Ball Z. They can be wrong sometimes.

[Almighty Majin]

Nail vs Tullece
Nail vs. Tullece: After eating the fruit

Who wins?

Round 1: Nail wins he should be stronger considering regular Turles was marginally stronger than base Goku.
Round 2: After eating the fruit, Turles seemingly got a 10x boost seeing as he could contend with Kaioken x10 Goku, he slams Nail.

I disagree. A Cell Jr. is comparable to Perfect Cell, who is equal to Dabura. The Supreme Kai couldn't touch Dabura and needed help. Future Dabura killed him too.

I always saw Supreme Kai as Semi-Perfect Cell or Super Saiyan grade 2 level.

A Cell Jr. is comparable to suppressed Perfect Cell who Dabura is way stronger than.

CG Piccolo =< CG Vegeta/Trunks < CG Goku =< Cell Jr. = Suppressed Perfect Cell < CG Gohan < Full Power Perfect Cell < Super Perfect Cell < SSJ2 Gohan

Whether or not Dabura is equal to full power Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell does not matter much here (personally I think he is above SPC due to that being the most recent Cell to compare to plus he had magic on top of that).

That being said... how strong is Shin? Well he is certainly stronger than Freeza, but that does not say much. Piccolo is afraid to fight Shin and Shin managed to briefly contribute to fighting Majin Buu despite needing to retreat with Gohan. The question is how strong is Piccolo in the Buu arc?

Piccolo should be stronger than Goten and Trunks. The reason I say this is because when Gotenks defused inside Buu, Piccolo became the strongest person absorbed. This can be countered by saying that Goten and Trunks were found in base inside Buu so this gives us room to believe that SSJ Goten and Trunks surpassed Piccolo. I personally think it is more straightforward and that Toriyama was clearly portraying that Piccolo was superior to the boys regardless of them being in Super Saiyan or not.

Goten and Trunks are Saiyan hybrid prodigies who were rapidly approaching Gohan's level of power before their Time Chamber training which they likely surpassed afterwards. Buu arc Gohan should essentially be a rusty CG Gohan. He is slightly weaker and off his game, but he should not be too far off from how he was in the Cell Games. As a result it is my belief that the boys surpassed CG Gohan after the Time Chamber (not including SSJ2 of course). If you want to include the DBS manga into this, it further shows my point when Goten and Trunks can take on 3 Cell Jrs. at once and struggle. To me that indicates they could take on 1 Cell Jr. with effort while 3 pushes them to extreme difficulty, a fight they would likely lose.

With this, we can say...

Goten/Trunks < rusty Gohan =< Cell Jr. < CG Gohan < Time Chamber Goten/Trunks =< 3 Cell Jrs. (if we count DBS manga) < Piccolo < Shin < Full Power Perfect Cell < Super Perfect Cell =< Dabura (you can have him equal to regular Perfect Cell, but it doesn't matter here)

I just refuse to believe that Piccolo did not get stronger after 7 years of training while literally everyone else who trained did. Also this interpretation would make sense with Shin's performance against Buu and he would still be weaker than Cell/Dabura in the end.

[ZombieVito]

Then why did Vegeta and Trunks get beaten so badly against Cell Jr? And why wasn't Goku able to beat a Cell Jr? The guidebooks also said Ox King was stronger than King Piccolo and Goku at the start of Dragon Ball Z. They can be wrong sometimes.

1) They didn't? They have bruises and stuff but they weren't on the ground like the humans or Goku.
2) Because he was exhausted from fighting Cell...
3) No guidebook has said any of that.

[daniel1]

Buu's power went down after Buff Buu transformed into Kid Buu.

There is no proof of this.

There's also a panel in the manga where Buuhan calls himself the most powerful Buu in the past and future.

This is Buutenks, not Buuhan.

he wanted to give Vegeta a turn.

You are referencing anime filler, and the anime is very explicit that Kid Buu is the strongest.

[Almighty Majin]

Each team goes into the Time Chamber for a year, who wins?

Team 1: Freeza (Namek), Cooler, Lord Slug, Turles
Team 2: Cell, Super Android 13, Broly (Z), Bojack
Team 3: Kid Buu, Bio-Broly, Janemba, Hirudegarn
Team 4: Goku Black, Old Moro, Gas (pre-wish), Bebi

[GatoF]

Each team goes into the Time Chamber for a year, who wins?

Team 1: Freeza (Namek), Cooler, Lord Slug, Turles
Team 2: Cell, Super Android 13, Broly (Z), Bojack
Team 3: Kid Buu, Bio-Broly, Janemba, Hirudegarn
Team 4: Goku Black, Old Moro, Gas (pre-wish), Bebi

Cell has the most potential here, considering he has freeza's speed growth + saiyan buffs

DBS Kid Broly vs Saiyan arc Vegeta

[Hugo Boss]

Buu's power went down after Buff Buu transformed into Kid Buu.

There is no proof of this.

If absorbing the South Kaioshin made Boo more powerful, I think it’s unlikely that he wouldn’t get weaker when the South Kaioshin was taken from him.

[daniel1]

If absorbing the South Kaioshin made Boo more powerful, I think it’s unlikely that he wouldn’t get weaker when the South Kaioshin was taken from him.

I quote that exact source in my article. So yes I was exaggerating about "no" proof. However, I don't find a single website, and one that is using the anime as a source to be convincing for two reasons. The first is that the anime is explicitly clear that Kid Buu is the strongest form, and the anime has more credence than the website. We know the website is using the anime because it's showing a fight that is anime filler. The second reason is that Dabura stated that they could not use the Eastern Kaioshin or Kibito's ki to resurrect Majin Buu. We know that the Dai Kaioshin reduced Majin Buu's power and it stands to reason that the other Shin-jin do as well, or there would have been no reason they couldn't have used their ki. For these reasons, I find it more likely than not that the Southern Kaioshin actually reduced Kid Buu's power as well.

[Koitsukai]

Why is anime filler and the anime itself having more weight than the actual manga having Super Buu turn into Buff Buu and the guys saying he's getting stronger? and no, it wasn't about Kid Buu, it was about the Buff one. The reaction to Kid Buu was "hey, now we can take him" "sure thing"... This is as direct as it gets.
Followed up later with "fuck potara, I'll fuck him up myself"... followed up with "I just need to power up fully and he's toasted".

But if that wasn't enough, Akira had Kibito-Shin say that it was the Dai who lowered his power and made him "good". Not both, not the other Kaioshin but the fat one, not even said in an ambiguous way to leave room for this type of interpretation, no: the Dai Kaio Shin did it.
Narrative and text are too clear to be challenged, specially if the arguments are anime sources. Even Koyama admitted Buuhan was the strongest Buu.