Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

The power dynamics introduced in the 4th episode do open some interesting questions about established hierarchies, especially regarding Shin, Freeza, Piccolo, and Goku.

If Glorio is portrayed as stronger than Shin and Goku later outperforms Glorio, this could imply that Goku, even in his base form from the Boo arc, might surpass Shin. However, this also depends on how Daima interprets Shin’s abilities.

Shin’s confidence in defeating Freeza could have meant Freeza’s suppressed form or might imply Shin’s confidence came from his divine techniques rather than sheer power. Base Goku in the Boo arc could still outperform Shin without invalidating Shin’s previous comments, especially if Shin’s confidence was less about a raw power comparison.

Besides, Piccolo’s reaction to Shin always could have been out of respect for his divine aura, which implies the Super Namekian might still surpass Shin in raw power, but deferred due to the god’s confidence.

So, the current power chain based on Daima seemingly recontextualizing Goku, Shin, Piccolo, and Freeza’s roles, might look like this:

1. Super Namekian Piccolo: After merging with Kami, Piccolo was superior to Freeza and even surpassed Super Saiyan Vegeta from the Android arc, suggesting he would likely maintain an edge over Goku in base form during the Boo arc.

2. Freeza (Namek arc): The warning from King Cold (“don’t ever challenge Lord Beerus or Majin Boo”) aligns with the idea that Shin’s raw combat power might not surpass Freeza’s true form, though magical abilities muddle things a bit.

3. Base Goku (Boo arc): Stated to be weaker than Freeza (Namek arc) and potentially stronger than Shin if he outperforms Glorio.

4. Glorio: Comparable to Shin’s power, potentially a bit above.

5. Shin: Likely below Base Goku (Boo arc) level if Glorio is considered his superior, but can potentially beat Freeza or Piccolo using his magical abilities.

6. Freeza’s suppressed form: Lower than Shin, although Shin may have considered not only his weaker forms.

[Grimlock]

3. Base Goku (Boo arc): Stated to be weaker than Freeza (Namek arc)

Since you were one of those who told me that Dai Kaioshin was weaker than Kaioshin of South once, I have to ask: couldn't there be any chance you may be getting this one wrong too?

[Yuji]

3. Base Goku (Boo arc): Stated to be weaker than Freeza (Namek arc)

Since you were one of those who told me that Dai Kaioshin was weaker than Kaioshin of South once, I have to ask: couldn't there be any chance you may be getting this one wrong too?

If Shin is shown as weaker than base Goku in Daima, then you basically have to assume one of two things:

1. Beerus misread Goku's or Freeza's strength and could not accurately access their suppressed battle powers;

2. Or, Shin misread Freeza's or his strength and could not accurately access Freeza's battle power.

If we have to pick one, Shin being wrong is more likely than the stronger, more battle-experienced God being wrong, especially considering how poorly Shin was judging BPs the entire arc.

With that being said, it's possible that Mini versions don't scale linearly to their adult selves. Just because base Goku (mini) is stronger than Shin (mini) doesn't necessarily mean adult Goku is stronger than adult Shin. The magic may affect each individual differently.

[Hugo Boss]

In this case, Goku’s base form being weaker than Namek Freeza is directly referenced in Dragon Ball Z Battle of Gods and Dragon Ball Super. This assessment holds consistently across several official sources. So far, Daima hasn’t provided anything to contradict this reference, but I might alter it if needed.

As for South Kaioshin’s comparison, the original manga shows him to be the strongest of five Supreme Kais, while supplementary materials clarified his strength relative only to other Supreme Kais of similar rank, suggesting a post-publication recontextualization. This layered context doesn’t invalidate the old status quo of their power structure, just highlights it could change if the narrative requires.

P.S.: Also, the character showcase nicely clarifies that Buff Boo is more powerful than Kid Boo, despite the popular belief that all Kaioshins affect him “negatively”.

[LightBing]

How did Goku perform any better than Glorio when they beating random Demons?
We don't know how strong they are, how strong that fish that jumped is, anything.

Regarding Base Saiyans:

Besides Vegeta's line, there's no real reasons to think Base Saiyans ever reached Freeza. Narratively wise, it doesn't make sense.

Do we think Kuririn could defeat Freeza? Because the humans consistently were always a step or two behind Goku.
Yamcha being confused as Goku by Dr.Gero isn't an error, it's the continuation of Toriyama's logic.
Beerus line is just the nail in the coffin.

[Grimlock]

If Shin is shown as weaker than base Goku in Daima, then you basically have to assume one of two things:

1. Beerus misread Goku's or Freeza's strength and could not accurately access their suppressed battle powers;

2. Or, Shin misread Freeza's or his strength and could not accurately access Freeza's battle power.

I'm going with a third option:

3 - Beerus didn't misread anything, he just made an assessment based on what he saw through Whis staff earlier in the movie. / People grossly misinterpret his line.

The ability to pinpoint exactly someone else's power level is... an ability. It does not come with experience or how strong they are. And so far, Beerus hasn't shown the ability to say how strong others are.

This assessment holds consistently across several official sources.

Care to provide those sources? Not counting the retelling.

As for South Kaioshin’s comparison, the original manga shows him to be the strongest of five Supreme Kais,

It really doesn't. All that the manga shows is his mugshot. With Kaioshin of East saying he's the strongest in a way that Dai Kaioshin could be excluded from that statement.

supplementary materials clarified his strength relative only to other Supreme Kais of similar rank, suggesting a post-publication recontextualization. This layered context doesn’t invalidate the old status quo of their power structure, just highlights it could change if the narrative requires.

It invalidates once we accept "post-publication recontextualization" (you could've just said "retcon") as the new, valid information, which you do. You rely on ancillary material to prove your point, so it begs to question why you aren't doing the same here. Either Kaioshin of South is stronger or he is not. Either Ultimate is a transformation or it is not. Either Bulma's party took place at his house or on a ship and etc. You can't have two contradictory elements to be true at the same time.

Not that Dai Kaioshin being stronger than Kaioshin of South these days is a retcon, since it was never outright established it in the first place.

[daniel1]

Not that Dai Kaioshin being stronger than Kaioshin of South these days is a retcon, since it was never outright established it in the first place.

Even without all of the supplementary materials, we could assume Dai Kaioshin was the strongest of them all because every tier of god is stronger than the ones under them. Kaioshin is stronger than Kaio-sama, Kaio-sama over Kami-sama, etc. It would be strange if that suddenly wasn't the case for the top of the top.

[MisteryOne]

I was hoping for Glorio and Pantzy to not be total pushovers so this is nice (then again, Shin himself has yet to fight...at least they have weapons so they probably will) but going by how Gomah and Degesu acted the first episode, I guess they may not be able to fire Ki blasts? Could make things interesting.

Then again, is Goku talking about the mini Shin specifically? Would make things even more vague, but if you want to be nitpicky...

The line is the first power scale comparison in Daima. Basic stuff, compare the two travelling companions.
That's a pretty great baseline for Glorio.

Ironically, if this cares about Super. Goku never saw Kaioshin fight and shouldn't be able to feel his Ki.
If we're petty, we should ignore Goku. Obviously this should be taken at face value.

Yeah, I would always take statements like these at face value since they clearly exist for a reason. I never understood the argument of "Piccolo was wrong as he can't sense God Ki" when Toei is always so inconsistent about it. Krillin and Trunks felt Goku Black yet his Ki was suposed to be like Zamasu's. The number of times it has actually been relevant can be counted with one hand (on the anime) and was dropped very quickly.

[LightBing]

I was hoping for Glorio and Pantzy to not be total pushovers so this is nice (then again, Shin himself has yet to fight...at least they have weapons so they probably will) but going by how Gomah and Degesu acted the first episode, I guess they may not be able to fire Ki blasts? Could make things interesting.

Then again, is Goku talking about the mini Shin specifically? Would make things even more vague, but if you want to be nitpicky...

I think you're right, they don't seem able to fire ki blasts.
Could make their weapons more lethal than normal or use completely different technique's instead of big round energy ball number 99.

Yeah, I would always take statements like these at face value since they clearly exist for a reason. I never understood the argument of "Piccolo was wrong as he can't sense God Ki" when Toei is always so inconsistent about it. Krillin and Trunks felt Goku Black yet his Ki was suposed to be like Zamasu's. The number of times it has actually been relevant can be counted with one hand (on the anime) and was dropped very quickly.

Likewise in the manga, Toriyama rarely omitted information. Even if a statements proves to be off, it's usually mentioned later.
For example Dabra, who become a bit better in Goku's eyes after using magic.

Threads like these would be a lot different, if people didn't look for in-universe reasons to justify X or Y; looking first at the meta reason why the author would even make a character say or do it.
90% of the time it's just straight up power scaling with the same repeat lines for over 500 chapters.

[Grimlock]

Even without all of the supplementary materials, we could assume Dai Kaioshin was the strongest of them all because every tier of god is stronger than the ones under them. Kaioshin is stronger than Kaio-sama, Kaio-sama over Kami-sama, etc. It would be strange if that suddenly wasn't the case for the top of the top.

There's that, but you certainly don't need to tell me that, as I never was one of those who thought Kaioshin of South to be stronger than Dai Kaioshin.

[Hugo Boss]

Beerus didn't misread anything, he just made an assessment based on what he saw through Whis staff earlier in the movie. / People grossly misinterpret his line.

The ability to pinpoint exactly someone else's power level is... an ability. It does not come with experience or how strong they are. And so far, Beerus hasn't shown the ability to say how strong others are.

While you argue Beerus lacks precise power-sensing skills, he still indicates Goku’s base form is weaker than Freeza. Even if his assessment was made through Whis’ staff, the context implies enough accuracy to remain relevant until contradicted.

Care to provide those sources? Not counting the retelling.

Sure. Chozenshuu 4 confirms that Abo and Kado’s fusion puts them on par with Freeza, with Super Saiyan Goku needed to defeat them. In Weekly Dragon Ball News (August 1st episode), Toyotaro mentions Granolah and Gas were at a comparable level to Abo and Kado individually, suggesting the siblings are around Namek Freeza’s strength when fused, further backing the notion of Goku’s base being lower.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Chozenshuu 4: “Abo
Freeza's subordinate [Par.] A powerful person who appears in "Yo! We're back~" that was the subordinate of Freeza and on equal ground with the Ginyu Special Squadron. After repeated battles, his strength is now equal to Freeza. His whole body is blue-colored and he has a chubby body-type. He has a single horn-like protrusion
on his head.
[Tech.] Duplicating into 3 bodies. Merging with Kado. [Bat.] He causes trouble with Kado on Earth after following Tarble there when Goten & Trunks fight against them. Although he overwhelms Gotenks by merging with Kado, he's beaten by Goku. After his defeat, his personality unexpectedly turns around, enjoying a meal with Goku and friends.”

Spoiler:

[August 1st] Weekly Dragon Ball News Special Episode! [Part 1]: "How strong were Granolah and Gas before becoming the strongest warriors in the universe?"
Uchida: I think they were quite powerful. The Heeters controlled part of the galaxy after Frieza died.
Toyotaro: They saw their opening and made moves to gain control. That in itself shows how fearsome they are, and that they were both powerful in their own right.
Uchida: But I feel like Gas was stronger than Granolah before they made their wish on the Dragon Balls.
Toyotaro: Right. Gas was stronger, so Granolah had no choice but to follow. Though he was a willing follower as a bounty hunter. That said, in the whole of Universe 7, they started off weaker than Goku and the others. But as far as how strong they were...
Uchida: They were still stronger than someone like Nappa, right?
Toyotaro: They were stronger than him. Probably stronger than the Ginyu Force too.
Uchida: Compared to Frieza on Namek... Ah, but the Heeters don't seem like they were stronger than him. They gained a lot of power with the Dragon Balls.
Toyotaro: Quite a lot. So maybe around Abo and Kado's level. From the anime special "Dragon Ball: Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!".
Uchida: I can't remember how strong those two were.
Toyotaro: I mean Abo and Kado before they fused. That's about how strong they were. About the same as pre-fused Abo and Kado. So they were in the same league as the Frieza Force elites.
Uchida: In other words, their wish to Shenron was tremendous.

It really doesn't. All that the manga shows is his mugshot. With Kaioshin of East saying he's the strongest in a way that Dai Kaioshin could be excluded from that statement.

The manga dialogue presents Shin as the “youngest and most powerless” among five Kaioshins, with South Kaioshin being confirmed as “burliest and strongest” among the four other Supreme Kais. So far, Dai-Kaioshin was described as the “fat, but kind and gentle” one.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s)…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

It invalidates once we accept "post-publication recontextualization" (you could've just said "retcon") as the new, valid information, which you do. You rely on ancillary material to prove your point, so it begs to question why you aren't doing the same here. Either Kaioshin of South is stronger or he is not. Either Ultimate is a transformation or it is not. Either Bulma's party took place at his house or on a ship and etc. You can't have two contradictory elements to be true at the same time.

Not that Dai Kaioshin being stronger than Kaioshin of South these days is a retcon, since it was never outright established it in the first place.

Just to clarify, my assessment of South Kaioshin’s strength was based on the information available in the original manga at the time. The manga establishes him as the ‘burliest and strongest’ among the Supreme Kais, and nothing contradicts that in the original text. The additional context from later materials, while informative, is a retcon and doesn’t imply that I ‘got it wrong’ with the initial interpretation. Retcons offer new angles but don’t invalidate interpretations based on the original data.

[daniel1]

There's that, but you certainly don't need to tell me that, as I never was one of those who thought Kaioshin of South to be stronger than Dai Kaioshin.

Right. I was just agreeing with you and adding onto what you wrote.

[LightBing]

What's the best comparison for the environment of the Demon Realm?

Simple extra gravity or more like the RoSaT. More than a day there and Goku is still getting used to it, reminds me of when Kid Goku couldn't handle the RoSaT.
Goku could still be under the effects of his de-aging, however with flight being discouraged by a character that's above SSJ. It seems like a harsh place.

[daniel1]

What's the best comparison for the environment of the Demon Realm?

To me, it looks like trying to fight in a swimming pool lol

[Grimlock]

While you argue Beerus lacks precise power-sensing skills, he still indicates Goku’s base form is weaker than Freeza. Even if his assessment was made through Whis’ staff, the context implies enough accuracy to remain relevant until contradicted.

No, you imply that. Because if we go and take actual context into consideration, then we end up with a very different situation: his line was made before his fight with Goku; he does not have "power-sensing skills"; he said that because of what he saw through Whis staff and there is a gap of sixteen years between Freeza saga and Movie 14. That's the context. There is no accuracy to be found under this circumstance.

Sure. Chozenshuu 4 confirms that Abo and Kado’s fusion puts them on par with Freeza, with Super Saiyan Goku needed to defeat them. In Weekly Dragon Ball News (August 1st episode), Toyotaro mentions Granolah and Gas were at a comparable level to Abo and Kado individually, suggesting the siblings are around Namek Freeza’s strength when fused, further backing the notion of Goku’s base being lower.

Spoiler:

The image you posted clearly says "Abo", so it's a description of Abo, not Abocado. And this is a statement found in the Tarble OVA, as Tarble himself says they are on Freeza's level. So if Abo and Cado are on Freeza's level, then Abocado should be stronger than him. Goku defeated someone stronger than Freeza with a single blow, if anything (and of top of Goku's reaction upon learning that they are Freeza's level), this evidence works more in my favor. By that point in time, Goku doesn't need Super Saiyan to defeat Freeza, which is what common sense would dictate as well, if we had anything resembling that in this day and age...

Toyotaro: I mean Abo and Kado before they fused. That's about how strong they were. About the same as pre-fused Abo and Kado. So they were in the same league as the Frieza Force elites.

Toyotaro placing Abo and Cado in the same league as Freeza soldiers contradicts the OVA. So either we go by the what is stated there or we go by what Toyotaro says. I'm choosing the former, for obvious reasons. Are those all of your sources you have?

[LightBing]

What's the best comparison for the environment of the Demon Realm?

To me, it looks like trying to fight in a swimming pool lol

Pretty good analogy.

[Yuji]

I don't know what Aka has to do with anything because he's defeated by base Gotenks and SS Goku which are both undeniably stronger than Freeza, and Tarble could have been referring to 1st form Freeza as that was his known form.

[Koitsukai]

No, you imply that. Because if we go and take actual context into consideration, then we end up with a very different situation: his line was made before his fight with Goku; he does not have "power-sensing skills"; he said that because of what he saw through Whis staff and there is a gap of sixteen years between Freeza saga and Movie 14. That's the context. There is no accuracy to be found under this circumstance.

What's your source for this? really, where was stated that Beerus CANNOT sense skills or power?

Wouldn't a scene where he goes ahead and does something like, say, gauge somebody else's power be the actual proof that he can do it?
How could one introduced this type of skill, for a new character, if not exactly like it was presented in BoG?
When was his opinion on Goku's base power proved wrong?
When were Beerus's limitations introduced? when was it said this was one of the things he cannot do, like not being able to hakai immortals, defeat Whis, override Time Rings or teleport?

Can you produce any evidence for all of this? because if you cannot then it's just you not liking what was presented as simple powerscaling.

Do you really think Beerus is a real character and not something the author created to speak his mind?
Do you think it wasn't Toriyama saying it and not the fictional character Beerus he actually crafted?
Do you think Toriyama was wrong and you know better?
Dou you believe the author has no narrative experience or knowledge as to what means to have a character say something that will never be challenged or disproven ever again?
Do you believe Toriyama just came up with pointless scenes because he has no idea how storytelling works after 40 years of making a living out of it?

[Grimlock]

What's your source for this? really, where was stated that Beerus CANNOT sense skills or power?

I'm reading the highlighted part a lot, but I'm not seeing I said "it was never stated Beerus doesn't have power-sensing skills", I'm seeing "he doesn't have power-sensing skills". Since I know interpreting is difficult, I'll tell you the difference between these two sentences:

• "it was stated Beerus doesn't have power-sensing skills" - this represents a sentence, a phrase, a line, written or spoken by a character, the author or a guidebook that outright proves a certain character does not possess that ability.

• "he doesn't have power-sensing skills" - this represents a statement based on the lack of any evidence to the contrary. The character, since their inception until now, haven't shown to possess such ability, so we can infer they do not have it. Because lack of evidence is not evidence, this statement can be wrong, if there is evidence to the contrary.

But to answer your question more directly, Movie 14 stated it. Goku says he's fighting at 80% and Beerus reaction is that of one who didn't know he was fighting against someone using 80%. So yeah, he doesn't have the ability to tell precisely how strong others are (even during the fight, let alone before it).

Wouldn't a scene where he goes ahead and does something like, say, gauge somebody else's power be the actual proof that he can do it?

No. Because it would be the same as me in front of you for the first time ever saying you are this smart right there and then, before I give you any kind of test. One cannot gauge anything before putting it to the test. Unless one has the ability to do so or one is omniscient.

How could one introduced this type of skill, for a new character, if not exactly like it was presented in BoG?

Except it wasn't? Beerus assessment comes from what he saw through Whis staff earlier in the movie. He saw Goku with black hair, then he sees Goku getting golden hair, and even right there and then, he asks Whis "shouldn't Saiyans have black hair?", and upon seeing Goku personally, he makes a remark based on what he saw. This is not introducing this type of skill.

When was his opinion on Goku's base power proved wrong?

Not that Beerus is wrong, he didn't say anything we didn't know already. Goku couldn't defeat Freeza in base form and had to transform to increase his power at that time. What is wrong is the perception that Goku in Movie 14 is still weaker than Freeza and is contradicted by: his line being made before his fight, common sense, not having the ability to pinpoint the power level of others, a sixteen-year gap and that Goku spent those sixteen years getting stronger.

Can you produce any evidence for all of this? because if you cannot then it's just you not liking what was presented as simple powerscaling.

Either that or this is just another evidence that Dragon Ball fans can't read, or in this case, can't interpret things correctly.

Do you really think Beerus is a real character and not something the author created to speak his mind?
Do you think it wasn't Toriyama saying it and not the fictional character Beerus he actually crafted?

I don't know. When Raditz and Vegeta adamantly said that there were only four Saiyans alive, was it Toriyama adamantly saying that? And when they were proven wrong, it was actually Toriyama proving himself wrong? Kaioshin of East says Babidi created Majin Buu, and Toriyama said he existed since forever, which mind should I go by? Who is saying the correct thing? If Toriyama and his characters are one and the same, shouldn't they be saying the exact same thing?

Do you think Toriyama was wrong and you know better?

For this specific case, no. Like I said, it's not like Beerus said anything wrong, so this has nothing to do with me knowing better and Toriyama being wrong. It's just you blabbering nonsense out of nowhere with these questions.

[Koitsukai]

snip

1st quote: Beerus not knowing Goku still had more to go in his strongest form doesn't negate he can gauge how strong his resting form is. He doesn't have to be exactly certain about how much power Goku is using or can use. The point of the scene is to lump him in a category below Freeza, he doesn't need to know if he's 95M or 40M, only not as strong as Freeza is good enough.

2nd quote: citation needed. Where was it said that one cannot tell how strong other person is without fighting? Goku knew about how strong Dabura was. Piccolo knew about Shin. As long as the author knows how strong he wants the characters to be, they don't need to fight. They aren't R.E.A.L.

3rd quote: oh the black hair interpretation. Right... even though he never said anything on Kaio's planet about the black hair but about power, so it must be about hairstyles!... that's not crazy at all.

4th and 5th quote: I'll agree there, some fans really can't interpret much.

6th quote:... were there any other saiyans alive back then? or are you talking about Broly who was created 25 years after that manga chapter was drawn? or Tarble, "born" 10 years before Broly? You are talking about retcons and world expansions, not about characters saying things that weren't true at the time they were said and were meant to be disproven later. The original manga ended and there were no other saiyans around.
Talk about misinterpreting stuff.

7th quote: All I'm reading now is you not really knowing the basics of storytelling, thinking things are said just because characters need to speak and not just fight, which makes all of this just a waste of time, and that is on me, of course, I should know better by now.