Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

[Zephyr]

If I understand Grimlock's point correctly, it's that Goku can raise and lower his ki without having to transform, and that Goku's Base Form™ was not necessarily at its ki ceiling when Beerus made his Power Scaling Statement™, and thus it is not actually the reliable and definitive Toriyama Official Base Saiyans Power Scaling Statement™ that people treat it as. Unless Beerus had the ability to know someone's ki ceiling without them actively showing it, which is something we do not have evidence of.

It's gotta be a nightmare to be a powerscaler in search of certain answers from the text. Because there's a whole lotta ambiguity and wiggle room here, and you have to basically come up with what you think was any given author's intention behind certain lines. Sure, we could start from the assumption that Goku's Base Form™ was at its ki ceiling when Beerus made his Power Scaling Statement™, and it's a valid and fair assumption to make, but nothing really necessitates or justifies that assumption.

And then there are moments where characters compare themselves or others to Freeza and Cell. Which form did they mean? And we can't even say "oh, well the form that would have made the most sense", because as the entire revival era has shown, fans will have spent decades debating stuff and collectively cooking up a read that would "make the most sense", only for official things to come along and render the whole exercise moot.

[Grimlock]

He doesn't have to be exactly certain about how much power Goku is using or can use. The point of the scene is to lump him in a category below Freeza, he doesn't need to know if he's 95M or 40M, only not as strong as Freeza is good enough.

No, the point of the scene is for Beerus to understand this whole "Super Saiyan/getting stronger upon transforming" thing. Hence the "I've learned you couldn't have defeated him as you are, but that you transform and increase your power" line.

2nd quote: citation needed. Where was it said that one cannot tell how strong other person is without fighting? Goku knew about how strong Dabura was.

Sure, there was no fight, but at least there was still a demonstration of power when Dabura killed Kibito. Goku hadn't demonstrated anything to Beerus. But if you ask me, yeah, Goku and Vegeta shouldn't have been able to tell how strong Dabura was just by that. Their assessment would've made more sense after Dabura and Gohan fight.

Piccolo knew about Shin.

Assuming Piccolo forfeit his fight solely due to power level, and not because of hierarchy.

3rd quote: oh the black hair interpretation. Right... even though he never said anything on Kaio's planet about the black hair but about power, so it must be about hairstyles!... that's not crazy at all.

Right, I need to be very specific, sorry. Yeah, Beerus didn't utter the words "black hair" specifically, it was me who merely used different words to convey the same point. Allow me to rephrase it:

He saw Goku in base form, then he sees Goku transforming, and even right there and then, he asks Whis "shouldn't Saiyans have black hair?". Upon seeing Goku personally, he makes a remark based on what he saw. That Goku couldn't have defeated Freeza in base form (the state Goku is presenting himself to Beerus) but that he apparently can by powering up by transforming into a Super Saiyan.

6th quote:... were there any other saiyans alive back then? or are you talking about Broly who was created 25 years after that manga chapter was drawn? or Tarble, "born" 10 years before Broly? You are talking about retcons and world expansions, not about characters saying things that weren't true at the time they were said and were meant to be disproven later. The original manga ended and there were no other saiyans around.
Talk about misinterpreting stuff.

Yep, see how flawed and odd your "characters are just vessels for the author" thing is? It doesn't take into consideration retcons, changes and whatnot. Characters and their authors can't be one and the same. Sometimes the characters will say something that is wrong because they aren't omniscient. From an in-universe perspective, yeah, Tarble, Paragus, Broly... All of them always existed, and yet their existences were outright contradicted by Raditz and Vegeta saying there were only four multiple times.

If I understand Grimlock's point correctly, it's that Goku can raise and lower his ki without having to transform, and that Goku's Base Form™ was not necessarily at its ki ceiling when Beerus made his Power Scaling Statement™, and thus it is not actually the reliable and definitive Toriyama Official Base Saiyans Power Scaling Statement™ that people treat it as. Unless Beerus had the ability to know someone's ki ceiling without them actively showing it, which is something we do not have evidence of.

You understand correctly. I should probably give you a reward or something even though what I'm saying isn't anything difficult to understand. On top of that, I'm not saying anything that the series itself hasn't said infinite times. Goku can raise and lower his Ki at will, all those scouter users get shocked to learn that this is possible, we see it in Saiyans saga, we see it in Freeza saga.

Goku is not at his strongest all the time either, this is known (or it should be). In the Tarble OVA itself, Tarble uses his scouter and outright says Goku doesn't have the power level required to fight Abo and Cado, Vegeta then scolds him and says they can alter their power level. All of this is known. If Beerus line is meant to be understood as him referring to the Goku that is standing right in front of him, then this is yet another thing that would contradict his line. Goku wasn't at his full power in base form at that moment. Or he would be right, a relaxed base Goku is weaker than Freeza.

[ZombieVito]

Seems next episode is critical for us power scalers lol.

Hopefully Toriyama didn't screw up.

[LightBing]

It's hard to gauge how suppressed Goku really is.
I'm assuming a lot. I doubt random Demon folk are all that strong, specially when their Ki control is non-existent.

With this episode, I think he either unlocked all the power in base or the minimum necessary to go SSJ.
At least visually we can guarantee he made progress. Really liked the punch turning into a flick.

[Hellspawn28]

The Tamagami are probably stronger than Buu, but weaker than any major villain in Super. I bet Zamasu and Goku Black kill the Tamagami in the other timeline because they said they destroy all the dragon balls in the universe. Base Goku Black could have been enough to beat them based on current power scaling.

[ZombieVito]

The Tamagami are probably stronger than Buu, but weaker than any major villain in Super. I bet Zamasu and Goku Black kill the Tamagami in the other timeline because they said they destroy all the dragon balls in the universe. Base Goku Black could have been enough to beat them based on current power scaling.

Even Zamasu can do it.

He's over 100 times stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

[Hugo Boss]

[…] if we go and take actual context into consideration, then we end up with a very different situation: his line was made before his fight with Goku; he does not have "power-sensing skills"; he said that because of what he saw through Whis staff and there is a gap of sixteen years between Freeza saga and Movie 14. That's the context. There is no accuracy to be found under this circumstance.

Sorry for the delayed response. Too much personal works to handle… ugh

I think there is nothing particularly wrong about Beerus using the footage as his basis, as it would conveniently set up a joke. But going by his initial portrayal trough Dragon Ball Super, several instances imply Beerus can make assessments with reasonable accuracy, independently of ki sensing skills. I think Goku not refuting Beerus is the icing on the cake, since Goku isn’t as careful as the others in front of deities, suggesting the line has enough weight to carry a power scale implication. The fact that Goku later directly states he doesn’t need Super Saiyan to defeat true form Freeza in “Resurrection of F” supports the idea, since this is after he made massive gains through all his forms.

The image you posted clearly says "Abo", so it's a description of Abo, not Abocado. And this is a statement found in the Tarble OVA, as ‪Tarble himself says they are on Freeza's level‬. So if Abo and Cado are on Freeza's level, then Abocado should be stronger than him. Goku defeated someone stronger than Freeza with a single blow, if anything (and of top of Goku's reaction upon learning that they are Freeza's level), this evidence works more in my favor. By that point in time, Goku doesn't need Super Saiyan to defeat Freeza, which is what common sense would dictate as well, if we had anything resembling that in this day and age...

[…]

Toyotaro placing Abo and Cado in the same league as Freeza soldiers contradicts the OVA. So either we go by the what is stated there or we go by what Toyotaro says. I'm choosing the former, for obvious reasons.

In good faith, I will present what Chozenshuu said about Aka:

“Aka
The form of both Abo and Kado merging. He appears in "Yo! We're back~".
[Par.] His features are a huge body with a robust jaw and protrusions. His body color is purple, like a mix of Abo and Kado. As well as being more malicious compared to before merging, his Battle Power has also risen sharply.
[Tech.] Wahaha no Ha, Super Wahaha no Ha, Full-Power Wahaha no Ha.
[Bat.] He's a warrior born from Abo and Kado merging together while they were pusued by Goten and Trunks. Overwhelming Goten and Trunks, his power surpassed even Gotenks, but he was defeated by Goku's Kamehameha.”

Given the clarification, it’s fair to concede that Chozenshuu indeed leans toward your interpretation, particularly since Aka’s description omits any direct comparison to Freeza. Toyotaro’s interpretation, however, offers a more cohesive take in light of Dragon Ball Super. His view that Abo and Kado were the elite of Freeza’s forces, but below Freeza himself, aligns well with the portrayal of base Saiyans being stronger than Abo and Kado yet not quite at Freeza’s level.

Are those all of your sources you have?

There is also this note about Dragon Ball Super’s episode #5:

“Minute: 6
Context: After Beerus has inspected Goku (in his regular, non-Super Saiyan state), and mentioned Goku having defeated Freeza
Beerus: “You don’t look like you’d possibly be able to beat him as you are now, but you’re one of those transforming Saiyans, right? You can turn into that Super Saiyan thing.”
Significance: A mostly similar line originally appeared in BoG. The line here is basically the same, except it adds in 到底/toutei for extra emphasis, changing it from “you don’t look like you’d be able to beat him as you are now” to “you don’t look like you’d possibly be able to beat him as you are now” (the “but you’re one of those transforming Saiyans, right?” part wasn’t really there in BoG either). The big idea being that Goku in his “base” state is apparently still inferior to Freeza. Unless Beerus is wrong, of course.”

According to Herms, the information available at the time doesn’t offer any context contrary to what Beerus stated there, but he acknowledges that Beerus could be wrong. Of course, Goku evidently wasn’t at the ceiling of his base battle power, but, regardless, this reason wasn’t brought up, despite having it done before exactly in the Abo and Kado instance, when Goku shows off Super Saiyan in response to Vegeta claiming he can alter his battle power.

So, I don’t think this is a case of “grossly misinterpreting” Beerus’ line, but probably about lack of definitive evidence on both sides. I personally have no problem if additional context proves me wrong though.

[Yuji]

Considering the amount of nerfs Goku & co are going through, I don't think we can properly scale anything to Boo arc levels unless a direct comparison is made. I'd wager if anything that everyone is down to Saiyan-Namek arc tiers of strength at best due to how grounded every fight so far seems to be (with the possible exception of the Tamagamis and Degesu, but we'll see how things develop; Dabra could have been the strongest of the realm and just uninterested in the dragon balls).

- The dense air cutting down stamina and movement slower
- The tinier body making weight distribution and distance management difficult
- The lack of balance in flight
- The inability to transform for now

The show is clearly showing Goku is not as strong as he once was, so why wouldn't the same go for Shin? He's going through the same nerfs but, unlike Goku, he's not trying to adapt and learn how to fight in his new body.

Both of them could have started at a baseline of, say, 1,000 for Goku and 5,000 for Shin respectively in their new forms, but Goku's training and adaptation has boosted him up to 10,000 in base whereas Shin's complacency has yielded no boost in strength. This shows no correlation to their full power as adults in the millions and billions.

[RandomGuy96]

Kid Piccolo hurts himself and gets a bloody nose flying into a small tree (without breaking the tree), Goku asks that the king's soldiers not use guns against him, characters have trouble flying at all, planes are back to being relevant forms of travel for the strongest characters, and in general everyone is consistently displaying feats and limits on par with where the characters were back in the Red Ribbon Army arc. I think it's abundantly clear that all the characters are just massively weaker than they were as kids and no one's power now is indicative of where they were in the Buu arc. Until I get an explicit comparison to the contrary I'll continue to assume that Piccolo Daimao could wipe out everyone seen thus far.

Actually, this is something I've been suspecting since Resurrection F, but at this point I'm very sure everyone bar maybe Goku and Vegeta (and Shin but he does nothing 99% of the time anyway so it's hard to tell) is also a lot weaker in general even when they aren't kids. Super has consistently gone with the idea that their power bottoms to pathetic levels even after a brief period of slacking, but can be regained quickly when they get back on the grind. Super also liberally retconned how strong past characters are while running, e.g. Uub contributing enough power to dust a God of Destruction level opponent and the whole business about SSG going from ~70% of Beerus and a bigger boost than merging to being <1% as strong as Beerus and weaker than a base Super Saiyan fusion. Toriyama is likely carrying this attitude over to Daima. Once you actually take the narrative at face value instead of sticking to fan headcanon that was allowed to build up in the preceeding two decades, everything makes a lot more sense. You don't need to write an alternative narrative in your head where 1.3 million isn't 1.3 million, Shisami goes from being weaker than Zarbon to getting a million times stronger off-screen and no one talks about it, the evil Buu being stated as more formidable than Freeza or Zamasu doesn't mean that he's more formidable than Freeza or Zamasu, Krillin carries around a planet-busting police issue pistol to fight a planet-busting bee drone that can't outrun a car, Gohan is still somehow stronger than the androids after 18 claims to be stronger than him and when he's unsure he can even turn Super Saiyan for more than a few seconds (a concern that was last relevant in the Namek arc), Krillin randomly chooses to let himself get damaged by bullets for no reason, everyone wastes valuable senzu after collectively deciding to act tired as a joke rather than genuinely exhausting their ki fighting foes that Jaco and random Earth wildlife can defeat, etc. Instead you can just read the text on the page/screen that the characters get weaker and don't constantly increase.

[Grimlock]

But going by his initial portrayal trough Dragon Ball Super, several instances imply Beerus can make assessments with reasonable accuracy, independently of ki sensing skills. I think Goku not refuting Beerus is the icing on the cake,

I don't remember him doing that, I do remember him not knowing Goku was fighting at 80%, which means if he were to guess at that moment, Beerus would be off. And why would Goku refute? Maybe he understood that Beerus wasn't saying in the present tense, but in the past tense.

The fact that Goku later directly states he doesn’t need Super Saiyan to defeat true form Freeza in “Resurrection of F” supports the idea, since this is after he made massive gains through all his forms.

It really doesn't. The context here is totally different.

Given the clarification, it’s fair to concede that Chozenshuu indeed leans toward your interpretation, particularly since Aka’s description omits any direct comparison to Freeza. Toyotaro’s interpretation, however, offers a more cohesive take in light of Dragon Ball Super. His view that Abo and Kado were the elite of Freeza’s forces, but below Freeza himself, aligns well with the portrayal of base Saiyans being stronger than Abo and Kado yet not quite at Freeza’s level.

Yeah, but it doesn't really matter his "more cohesive take", it contradicts the OVA and your image (and its manga). Also, Dragon Ball Super's portrayal doesn't show or state that base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza, unless you're referring to the retellings, which again, I don't consider. I was hoping to find anything else, from any other place other than the retellings. And even if we were to take his statement, Abo and Cado being weaker than Freeza hardly means Abocado would be weaker than or on Freeza's level. It would still be completely possible for Abocado to be stronger than Freeza. So not only what he said is contradictory, it is pointless as well.

By the way, and I don't know how I didn't notice this before, Goten and Trunks fought Abo and Cado, who are on Freeza's level, in their base forms and they were winning, they pushed the siblings to merge. Goku then proceeds to defeat Abocado with a single blow, which means Super Saiyan was an overkill, base form would have provided some battle, but with Goku comfortably coming out as victorious against Abocado. All in all, this pretty much confirms Goku surpassed Freeza by that point.

So, I don’t think this is a case of “grossly misinterpreting” Beerus’ line, but probably about lack of definitive evidence on both sides. I personally have no problem if additional context proves me wrong though.

The sixteen-year gap alone is more than enough evidence. Otherwise Cell saga Goku is weaker than 21st tournament Goku; Evil Dragons saga Goku is weaker than Majin Buu saga Goku... Sixteen years, which means a decade and a half, is more than enough time for Goku to make huge leaps in power, and to surpass Freeza. Any idea that goes against this pretty much contradicts the very foundation that Dragon Ball stands for. It contradicts all the countless times it was said and shown that Saiyans grow stronger during and after a battle. It contradicts everything Goku goes through and strives for.

You don't need the series, guidebooks or someone to take your hand and say "Movie 14 base Goku is weaker than Freeza", if you closely follow Dragon Ball, then this is the natural conclusion to be had, as common sense would be your best friend here. And even if the series, guidebooks or someone actually took your hand and said "Movie 14 base Goku is weaker than Freeza", it would be a very contradictory line given everything Dragon Ball has shown and established since its inception.

[ZombieVito]

So my fears came to be. Do you seriously want me to believe that Boo arc Piccolo is weaker than Cell Games arc base Gohan?

Man fuck this shit.

[Issei189]

So my fears came to be. Do you seriously want me to believe that Boo arc Piccolo is weaker than Cell Games arc base Gohan?

Man fuck this shit.

How so ? Is it not SS Goku > Piccolo > Glorio >= Supreme Kai > Namek Freeza ? Based on today's ep.

I know Piccolo did say that Shin was in a different league compared to him, but Piccolo never sensed Shin's ki. None of them could during the Buu saga. Piccolo's assessment about Shin's strength gotta be an assumption Piccolo made due to Shin's status as a Supreme Kai.

[ZombieVito]

How so ? Is it not SS Goku > Piccolo > Glorio >= Supreme Kai > Namek Freeza ? Based on today's ep.

I know Piccolo did say that Shin was in a different league compared to him, but Piccolo never sensed Shin's ki. None of them could during the Buu saga. Piccolo's assessment about Shin's strength gotta be an assumption Piccolo made due to Shin's status as a Supreme Kai.

He flat out says Shin is stronger. Daizenshuu also confirmed it.

[LightBing]

This battle of Goku vs Glorio didn't shed any light.

It confirmed what Goku said before, he's on the range of Kaioshin probably stronger.
Goku needed SSJ to defeat him.

[ZombieVito]

This battle of Goku vs Glorio didn't shed any light.

It confirmed what Goku said before, he's on the range of Kaioshin probably stronger.
Goku needed SSJ to defeat him.

Huh?

It deconfirmed Namek Freeza > Base Goku.

[Yuji]

This battle of Goku vs Glorio didn't shed any light.

It confirmed what Goku said before, he's on the range of Kaioshin probably stronger.
Goku needed SSJ to defeat him.

Huh?

It deconfirmed Namek Freeza > Base Goku.

Nobody is as strong as they were as adults, they state or imply that much multiple times, and Glorio forced Goku to transform regardless.

[ZombieVito]

This battle of Goku vs Glorio didn't shed any light.

It confirmed what Goku said before, he's on the range of Kaioshin probably stronger.
Goku needed SSJ to defeat him.

Huh?

It deconfirmed Namek Freeza > Base Goku.

Nobody is as strong as they were as adults, they state or imply that much multiple times, and Glorio forced Goku to transform regardless.

As there been any confirmation they actually grew weaker? Only thing I have seen is that they have trouble fighting on their small bodies/trouble flying.

Also Goku transformed because of the lighting attack. Before that he was fighting Glorio just fine with just one arm.

[LightBing]

This battle of Goku vs Glorio didn't shed any light.

It confirmed what Goku said before, he's on the range of Kaioshin probably stronger.
Goku needed SSJ to defeat him.

Huh?

It deconfirmed Namek Freeza > Base Goku.

How so? Goku had to turn SSJ.

[Yuji]

Huh?

It deconfirmed Namek Freeza > Base Goku.

Nobody is as strong as they were as adults, they state or imply that much multiple times, and Glorio forced Goku to transform regardless.

As there been any confirmation they actually grew weaker? Only thing I have seen is that they have trouble fighting on their small bodies/trouble flying.

Also Goku transformed because of the lighting attack. Before that he was fighting Glorio just fine with just one arm.

Glorio himself states that it doesn't matter how strong Goku was before, because he's a kid now. That directly implies the wish has made them weaker. Goku then later says he was worried about not being able to turn Super Saiyan as a kid. This on top of the other nerfs such as not being able to fly, fight, or move properly anymore, and the demon realm citizens in general being impressed by basic Ki abilities like flight and beams, Glorio included, and Goku still struggling. No episode thus far has suggested anyone is even as strong as Saiyan arc characters, let alone Boo arc.

Glorio was also holding back, Goku says he's better than he thought, then proceeds to fight with both arms and the Nyoibo. And once Glorio concentrates his magic, Goku resorts to Super Saiyan.

Until a clear comparison is made with a Z character, nothing is clear about where they stand.

[ZombieVito]

Goku literally compared Glorio to Shin and had no problem fighting him in base with one arm.

It's pretty clear base Goku is stronger than Shin which contradicts what BoG said.