About DBS Goku

[AliTheZombie13]

Is Mini Goku in Daima dumb like DBS Goku?

So far, no. Not even close.
Unless Goku's stupidity and impulsiveness in Daima helps kickstart entire avoidable conflicts that nearly result in the deaths of billions (and succeed in one attempt), then he can't possibly be as stupid as his Super counterpart.

[SupremeKai25]

If Zeno is as moral and wise as Super's twist ending wants me to believe, then he wouldn't erase anyone for no reason.
The Tournament and the erasure of the universes would've never happened if not for Goku in the anime.

The twist ending never presented Zeno as "moral" or "wise".

Once again you are seeing things that aren't there and complaining that Toriyama's story doesn't match your headcanon.

[AliTheZombie13]

With all due respect to the late Toriyama, I will not excuse nor sugarcoat his story when I feel it's faulty, sorry.
It's not even Toriyama's to begin with, it's Toei having been given bullet points. Toyotaro executed it better.

[SupremeKai25]

With all due respect to the late Toriyama, I will not excuse nor sugarcoat his story when I feel it's faulty, sorry.
It's not even Toriyama's to begin with, it's Toei having been given bullet points. Toyotaro executed it better.

No, but you are seeing things that aren't there and complaining that the story doesn't acknowledge the things that you imagined.

Again, the Anime quite literally never presents Zeno as a wise or moral person.

If anything, the ending once again reinforces the idea that Zeno is wildly volatile and acts on his whims, like a spoiled brat.

Case in point, the childish, naive, and innocent idea that selfish people are evildoers who should be punished (and by "punished", Zeno means literally erasing everything).

[AliTheZombie13]

No, but you are seeing things that aren't there and complaining that the story doesn't acknowledge the things that you imagined.

Again, the Anime quite literally never presents Zeno as a wise or moral person.

"Zeno was quite literally never presented as a moral person."
*Throws an entire tournament as a secret test of morality.*

K.

[SupremeKai25]

No, but you are seeing things that aren't there and complaining that the story doesn't acknowledge the things that you imagined.

Again, the Anime quite literally never presents Zeno as a wise or moral person.

"Zeno was quite literally never presented as a moral person."
*Throws an entire tournament as a secret test of morality.*

K.

Which doesn't mean anything because it's the same guy who breaks entire planets for fun, as seen in the very first episode of the ToP arc. Actual planets. That doesn't look like a "moral" person to me.

If you don't want to talk about this anymore just say it.

[tonysoprano300]

I didn’t read the manga version of TOP, so idk how different it is. The anime depiction definitely implicates Goku without any shadow of a doubt imo. It doesn’t matter that it ultimately worked out in the end, that’s not how we evaluate someone’s morals.

I can agree that Goku has done similarly ridiculous things in the past though, this didn’t start with DBS. DBS is just the most raw representation(Anime).

[AliTheZombie13]

I can agree that Goku has done similarly ridiculous things in the past though, this didn’t start with DBS. DBS is just the most raw representation(Anime).

I don't like Z Goku, but if I can say one thing in his defense is that there is a semblance of thought put behind his decisions. Him deciding to let the Cyborgs be created, then throwing Gohan into the ring are followed with him regretting his actions and deciding that he should clean up his mess. Super Goku would never for a single moment show that kind of self-reflection.

[SupremeKai25]

You people do realize that it's literally stated in the Anime that Goku should be thanked for giving the other universes a fighting chance, right?

[tonysoprano300]

I can agree that Goku has done similarly ridiculous things in the past though, this didn’t start with DBS. DBS is just the most raw representation(Anime).

I don't like Z Goku, but if I can say one thing in his defense is that there is a semblance of thought put behind his decisions. Him deciding to let the Cyborgs be created, then throwing Gohan into the ring are followed with him regretting his actions and deciding that he should clean up his mess. Super Goku would never for a single moment show that kind of self-reflection.

Well to be fair he never displayed regret for the cyborg thing, but I agree with your general point. Goku in the past did show some form of introspection which is humanizing, he never actually learns from it but better than nothing i guess.

You people do realize that it's literally stated in the Anime that Goku should be thanked for giving the other universes a fighting chance, right?

Yea, like i said it doesn’t matter. Goku recklessly made a selfish decision knowing full what the risks were, the fact that it worked out in the end doesn’t excuse it to me. Just like I wouldn’t excuse him allowing Vegeta to escape because it happened to work out for them on Namek. He didn’t do these things for anything other than his own selfishness.

[SupremeKai25]

Yea, like i said it doesn’t matter.

What the source material stated doesn't matter?

Uh-oh, we'll have to disagree on that.

Goku recklessly made a selfish decision knowing full what the risks were,

He first pinned the idea for a multiversal tournament in the U6 arc, when he didn't even know what Zeno was capable of.

[tonysoprano300]

Yea, like i said it doesn’t matter.

What the source material stated doesn't matter?

Uh-oh, we'll have to disagree on that.

Goku recklessly made a selfish decision knowing full what the risks were,

He first pinned the idea for a multiversal tournament in the U6 arc, when he didn't even know what Zeno was capable of.

Yes, if the dialogue the characters give contradicts what we are shown then its more than valid to question/dismiss it. This isn’t limited to DB.


Ok, and after that point he was made aware of Zeno’s capabilities and decides to remind him anyway.

[AliTheZombie13]

Goku wasn't just made aware of what Zeno is capable of, he saw first-hand Zeno wiping out an entire timeline.

[SupremeKai25]

Yea, like i said it doesn’t matter.

What the source material stated doesn't matter?

Uh-oh, we'll have to disagree on that.

Goku recklessly made a selfish decision knowing full what the risks were,

He first pinned the idea for a multiversal tournament in the U6 arc, when he didn't even know what Zeno was capable of.

Yes, if the dialogue the characters give contradicts what we are shown then its more than valid to question/dismiss it. This isn’t limited to DB.


Ok, and after that point he was made aware of Zeno’s capabilities and decides to remind him anyway.

Except that nothing is contradicted.

Goku didn't know that the losing universes would be erased when he reminded Zeno of the tournament. This was decided by Zeno and the Grand Priest behind closed doors, after Goku's visit.

Sadly the powers of Hindsight and Omniscience are not among Goku's skills.

[AliTheZombie13]

https://youtu.be/5PLe9GFvwwg

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Goku in Super, he is just warned, dead seriously, by his master and his master's apprentice, that Zeno is capable of erasing all of existence if provoked enough, something Goku is forced to admit is true, is advised against it, receives a death threat... and proceeds to treat the whole thing like a child.

Absolutely nothing wrong with Goku's portrayal here.
Oh, I know, "This is the Goku Toriyama wanted." Good for him, I hate him.

[SupremeKai25]

https://youtu.be/5PLe9GFvwwg

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Goku in Super, he is just warned, dead seriously, by his master and his master's apprentice, that Zeno is capable of erasing all of existence if provoked enough, something Goku is forced to admit is true, is advised against it, receives a death threat... and proceeds to treat the whole thing like a child.

Absolutely nothing wrong with Goku's portrayal here.
Oh, I know, "This is the Goku Toriyama wanted." Good for him, I hate him.

If you're going to be snarky about something I said, at least ping me.

It's painfully obvious that Beerus wasn't being serious about killing Goku. Literally the entire point of Super's storyline is that Beerus is following Goku around to shape him into a worthy rival. Besides, Goku can sense killing intent in those around him (see the Broly movie where he sensed that Broly was being bossed around and didn't have killing intent), so he obviously knew that Beerus wasn't serious about killing him and that's why he continued messing with him.

Also, Beerus might be a God, but he is quite clearly incompetent at his job and does NOT know how Zeno really thinks or works. This is shown quite clearly at the end of the Tournament of Destroyers where he was almost fired by Zeno for his incompetence.

It's kind of the whole point of the story that Goku is the only one who truly understands Zeno, which is why he inadvertently gives the other universes a chance to fight for their own survival, simply by treating Zeno like a friend (while the Gods put him on a pedestal and are terrified of him).

And again, Goku literally could not know that the losing universes would be erased.

[AliTheZombie13]

I'm glad you got all of that impression out of the story, because I saw absolutely nothing of what you're saying there.

[SupremeKai25]

I'm glad you got all of that impression out of the story, because I saw absolutely nothing of what you're saying there.

I'd say it's obvious that you're not even trying to understand what Super is telling you.

You are not even trying to give it a chance.

So I can't say I'm surprised by this remark.

[AliTheZombie13]

I'm glad you got all of that impression out of the story, because I saw absolutely nothing of what you're saying there.

I'd say it's obvious that you're not even trying to understand what Super is telling you.

You are not even trying to give it a chance.

So I can't say I'm surprised by this remark.

I do care about what Super tries to say, if I just turned my brain off and enjoyed the pretty fights, maybe I wouldn't hate it so much.
It's just that absolutely nothing what you said there is properly reflected in the story, you're seeing things that weren't meant to be there, sorry.

[SupremeKai25]

I'm glad you got all of that impression out of the story, because I saw absolutely nothing of what you're saying there.

I'd say it's obvious that you're not even trying to understand what Super is telling you.

You are not even trying to give it a chance.

So I can't say I'm surprised by this remark.

I do care about what Super tries to say, if I just turned my brain off and enjoyed the pretty fights, maybe I wouldn't hate it so much.
It's just that absolutely nothing what you said there is properly reflected in the story, you're seeing things that weren't meant to be there, sorry.

So you can only enjoy Super if you're stupid and only care about fights?

You sound very open-minded, lol!

Anyway, for someone who only cares about what is literally stated on-screen (logical connections and context be damned), you keep dismissing how it's stated on-screen by the other Gods that Goku gave the universes a chance to save themselves, and that Zeno was planning to erase the universes even before the Tournament of Power.