Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

[Almighty Majin]

Goku being called the strongest (something the narrator also said in an earlier episode iirc) puzzles me. I don't think we can ignore all the circumstancial evidence of Goku > Gohan anymore... This is very soon after the Boo Saga, how much power could Gohan have lost really?

If SSJ3 Goku surpassed Ultimate Gohan then that makes some power implications really messy. Like, the comparison between Future Trunks and CG Gohan is redundant because SSJ2 Trunks (Not FP) > SSJ2 Gotenks >>> SSJ2 Kid Gohan. Though I'm not sure what Goku should've said if Trunks were >>> Gohan...

There seems to be an implication now that SSJ3 Goku in the second half of the Buu arc is way stronger than he was in the first half for some reason. I am not sure how this would have happened, perhaps Old Kaioshin giving his life force to Goku also boosted his overall power once he came back to life? I mean life energy (Genki) does exist and is an aspect of the total Ki within a living being. Maybe one could argue that when Old Kaioshin transferred his life force to Goku, he permanently gained his life energy which granted him enough of a boost to surpass Gotenks and Gohan.

So it would be something like this:
SSJ3 Goku < SSJ3 Gotenks < Ultimate Gohan < SSJ3 Goku (Old Kaioshin Life Energy)

It is a bit of a crazy headcanon I must admit, but it makes sense to some extent. Just indulge my madness on this one lol

[DBZ Macky]

Goku being called the strongest (something the narrator also said in an earlier episode iirc) puzzles me.

You could think of it like this; Goku is definitively stronger than Gohan because of the Genki-Dama (and the Ryu-ken in Toei media).

The biggest proof is lack of it. Base Saiyans have no feats to justify such thoughts.

Base Goku and Gohan being able to lift the Z-Sword where the Kaioshin failed?
Base Gohan one-shotting True Form Freeza in Movie 12?

[Koitsukai]

I don't see a problem with Goku being stronger than Gohan a year after Buu, I don't see a retcon there.

How much time passed between the Moro arc and Super Hero? 2 years? in that time, Gohan who was on point and had been training for two arcs in a row, didn't slack off as bad as usual (he secretly practiced the Makankosappo) but still got somewhat rusty(unable to access Ultimate as freely).
I have no problems believing that in one year, a much less experienced and much slacker Gohan became weaker than Goku. The disgrace seen in RoF must've started somewhere.
Unless Gohan shows Chibi Ultimate, of course, this means nothing to me, but I feel we are not seeing Gohan at all.

[LightBing]

Goku initially says that Glorio is stronger than Kaioshin. Later, he says that Glorio is even more powerful than he thought. There’s no doubt about it, Glorio is stronger than Kaioshin.

I understand the logic. I'm not disputing what was said.
Like I wrote, it reads as bad sequencing from the writers. From my point of view, all around it makes it doubtful.

Base Goku and Gohan being able to lift the Z-Sword where the Kaioshin failed?
Base Gohan one-shotting True Form Freeza in Movie 12?

The Kaioshins weren't able to remove the Z-Sword from the rock and neither was Base Gohan, who needed to go SSJ to do it.
That's an anime movie, it has no bearing in this at all.

[Almighty Majin]

I am going to call this right now, but I think that Toriyama and other writers involved forgot how strong Shin is supposed to be. I think that we will see Piccolo outperform Shin because Shin will barely fight at all (assuming he even will). This will re-contextualize Piccolo's reaction to Shin being based on his status and that Piccolo was always stronger than Shin. If you believe that Shin = Cell Games SSJ Goku according to a certain guide book, this does make things a little crazy for how strong base Goku and Vegeta are at the time of the Buu arc.

[ZombieVito]

I have the smallest stupid hope that they confirm they did lose a ton of power (Shin more so for some reason) and Namek Freeza > base Goku lives.

[dbgtFO]

In regards to Shin, I agree with the idea that Toriyama probably didn't remember his suppsoed strength in relation to others and Piccolo and base Saiyans will be depicted as stronger than him, but maybe not stronger than Freeza.
I will be in big shock, if there is not a power comparison to Freeza at some point in this series. He has done it so much, I can't imagine it not being present.
Time will tell. Also the depowered characters don't appear strong at all. Not compared to Z levels at least, so we'll see how it goes.

[Yuji]

Goku is fighting the first Tamagami in base.

[ZombieVito]

Goku is fighting the first Tamagami in base.

And they are confirmed to be stronger than Dabura...

[DBZ Macky]

I was just on call with Fuyuto Takeda (Toriyama's editor during the Majin Boo arc) regarding this whole weird Goku power scaling thing and he told me that while they didn't think about it too much at the time, one possible interpretation for Goku being absurdly strong at times in modern Dragon Ball is because he has possessed God Ki even before becoming a Super Saiyan God in the BoG movie.

He said that much in the same way how Oob in the DBS Manga was able to singlehandedly restore Ultra Instinct Goku during his fight with Moro, Goku too possesses nigh limitless strength because of the fact that he was revived using the Rō Kaioshin's (Elder Kai's) life.

However, he cannot always access this power at will and even when he does, he has a better control over it in his Base and his mastered Super Saiyan (Grade IV) forms which is why we get scenes like Base Goku being able to make Hit bleed while needing the Kaio-Ken on top of his SSB form to defeat him, being able to tango with Ikari Broly who gave SSG Vegeta trouble, being able to fight Beerus as a "regular" Super Saiyan despite being weaker than him in his own SSG form, etc. among many other such examples.

He explained that this is also why Pure Boo is actually the strongest Boo as he similarly has latent God Ki which he was only able to use when pushed back by the Genki-Dama. Goku's latent God Ki in particular is so potent that you shouldn't be surprised if you see him being able to keep up with the likes of Beerus in his base form while being unable to defeat him in Ultra Instinct in the future.

As we were about to finish our discussion, Takao Koyama (the screenwriter for the Dragon Ball movies) also joined the call to tell us that Beerus isn't anything compared to Broly from Movie 8. This was very strange since nobody bought up OG Broly in the conversation and also since Broly from Movie 10 should logically be stronger?? But I digress. Koyama-san also said that the Saiyans are distant cousins of the Glinds and all of them naturally possess this form of latent God Ki. This is why Vegeta wasn't really bluffing when he said he could win the 25th Tournament without transforming into a Super Saiyan and this is also why Dabura was correct in his assessment that Piccolo was Kibito-tier fodder compared to Goku/Gohan/Vegeta.
He also mentioned several times that OG Broly was the strongest and possessed the most girthy and thick God Ki and that he was never truly defeated, which was again, very strange since nobody was really talking about Broly in the first place.

In any case, it was very difficult to get Takeda-san (much less so Koyama-san) on board with this and have someone on the staff actually chime in on our very important discussion about Power Levels so I hope it was useful. Please feel free to cite this totally legit conversation with him without question in further dialogue and save yourself the headache when Goku really does fight some super strong guy in his Base form and isn't instantly vaporized.

For the finishing note, I need to iterate for every "Dragon Ball powar scalar" 's mental sanity that this is totally not my copium-filled headcanon but an official statement from the Dragon Ball Team.

[Yuji]

Goku is fighting the first Tamagami in base.

And they are confirmed to be stronger than Dabura...

Goku was using SS2 in one of the trailers. I'm assuming next episode is where he debuts it. If he uses SS2 to defeat the Tamagamis, that's consistent with the Boo arc.

This at least proves my theory that they got weaker wrong.

[ZombieVito]

Goku was using SS2 in one of the trailers. I'm assuming next episode is where he debuts it. If he uses SS2 to defeat the Tamagamis, that's consistent with the Boo arc.

This at least proves my theory that they got weaker wrong.

Unless it's revealed later on that Piccolo was stronger than Shin all along, they really did him dirty in Daima.

He's weaker than Cell Games base Gohan by quite the margin. That's pathetic and seriously ruins the later half of Z for me.

[Hellspawn28]

It was stated that not even Dabra was able to beat the Tamagamis. So they must be above SSj2 level, but probably weaker than SSj3.

[Grimlock]

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P10.2
Context: as Piccolo and Kaioshin's match begins
Vegeta: “We’ll finally know: just how much is his battle power, which we haven’t even been able to estimate?...”

Right, let's approach this differently, although Vegeta says something different that doesn't really mean they can't sense his Ki, but like I said, let's try something else this time:

So, at face value, that Vegeta's statement pretty much establishes they can't sense god Ki, right? But then what about Kuririn? Also at face value, he was able to estimate his power, to the point he could even say Kaioshin of East didn't look tough. What do we make of this?

[Koitsukai]

Was it confirmed for all that Babidi makes people even stronger, or just for Vegeta?

In that case, then King Dabura is weaker than Majin Dabura (redundant, yes), who was weaker than the initial Buu. While Majin Vegeta went toe-to-toe with a powered-up Buu, making Majin Dabura easy to defeat for a SS2, as the saiyans suspected.
Meaning King Dabura is way below Buu arc SS2, so Tamagamis don't have to be above SS2 or even high-end SS2 tier, perhaps at CG SS2 Gohan level they are strong enough to beat the king. But narratively, that would be lackluster, I think.

We'll see next week, I suspect we'll get a direct comparison to a DBZ villain.

[Thani]

Was it confirmed for all that Babidi makes people even stronger, or just for Vegeta?

In that case, then King Dabura is weaker than Majin Dabura (redundant, yes), who was weaker than the initial Buu. While Majin Vegeta went toe-to-toe with a powered-up Buu, making Majin Dabura easy to defeat for a SS2, as the saiyans suspected.
Meaning King Dabura is way below Buu arc SS2, so Tamagamis don't have to be above SS2 or even high-end SS2 tier, perhaps at CG SS2 Gohan level they are strong enough to beat the king. But narratively, that would be lackluster, I think.

We'll see next week, I suspect we'll get a direct comparison to a DBZ villain.

The spell, if I recall, unlocks the potential of the victim while keeping them enslaved to Babidi's will. In Dabura's case, it would depend wether he had more potential to unlock or not.

We know that the majin do understand conventional strength and training, so Dabura, being an actual warrior, must have trained and fought a lot to get to the power he possessed before being ensnared by Babidi. I would think Babidi's spell didn't do much favors for Dabura, imho.

As for Buu, Vegeta was clapped hard. The only attack that actually did something was his suicidal Final Explosion. SS2 was not a threat at all to Fat Buu. He fared just as bad against Kid Buu, as well. He did fare better than Dabura, though - as in, he actually managed to fight him -, so I'd say that Dabura being in the SS2 vicinity makes sense, since he's about as strong as Cell (I assume Super Perfect).

[Koitsukai]

Was it confirmed for all that Babidi makes people even stronger, or just for Vegeta?

In that case, then King Dabura is weaker than Majin Dabura (redundant, yes), who was weaker than the initial Buu. While Majin Vegeta went toe-to-toe with a powered-up Buu, making Majin Dabura easy to defeat for a SS2, as the saiyans suspected.
Meaning King Dabura is way below Buu arc SS2, so Tamagamis don't have to be above SS2 or even high-end SS2 tier, perhaps at CG SS2 Gohan level they are strong enough to beat the king. But narratively, that would be lackluster, I think.

We'll see next week, I suspect we'll get a direct comparison to a DBZ villain.

The spell, if I recall, unlocks the potential of the victim while keeping them enslaved to Babidi's will. In Dabura's case, it would depend wether he had more potential to unlock or not.

We know that the majin do understand conventional strength and training, so Dabura, being an actual warrior, must have trained and fought a lot to get to the power he possessed before being ensnared by Babidi. I would think Babidi's spell didn't do much favors for Dabura, imho.

As for Buu, Vegeta was clapped hard. The only attack that actually did something was his suicidal Final Explosion. SS2 was not a threat at all to Fat Buu. He fared just as bad against Kid Buu, as well. He did fare better than Dabura, though - as in, he actually managed to fight him -, so I'd say that Dabura being in the SS2 vicinity makes sense, since he's about as strong as Cell (I assume Super Perfect).

Right, but I think Dabura couldn't even land a blow or dodge one, and took forever to recover from that kick. While Vegeta seemed in control until the bubble gum attack.

About Dabura's training, couldn't we say the same about Vegeta? I mean, it's not he didn't exploit his body in every way possible, and still had some power left hidden somewhere.

[Jack Bz]

We know that Spopovich and Yamu were commented on to be way stronger than they were before, and seemed to have enhanced durability. They used to essentially be above average humans but then were able to fly etc after becoming majin. Definitely not just a Vegeta thing to become a lot stronger.

Also I feel like it is almost guaranteed that Piccolo will be stronger than Kaioshin in Daima.

[Thani]

Was it confirmed for all that Babidi makes people even stronger, or just for Vegeta?

In that case, then King Dabura is weaker than Majin Dabura (redundant, yes), who was weaker than the initial Buu. While Majin Vegeta went toe-to-toe with a powered-up Buu, making Majin Dabura easy to defeat for a SS2, as the saiyans suspected.
Meaning King Dabura is way below Buu arc SS2, so Tamagamis don't have to be above SS2 or even high-end SS2 tier, perhaps at CG SS2 Gohan level they are strong enough to beat the king. But narratively, that would be lackluster, I think.

We'll see next week, I suspect we'll get a direct comparison to a DBZ villain.

The spell, if I recall, unlocks the potential of the victim while keeping them enslaved to Babidi's will. In Dabura's case, it would depend wether he had more potential to unlock or not.

We know that the majin do understand conventional strength and training, so Dabura, being an actual warrior, must have trained and fought a lot to get to the power he possessed before being ensnared by Babidi. I would think Babidi's spell didn't do much favors for Dabura, imho.

As for Buu, Vegeta was clapped hard. The only attack that actually did something was his suicidal Final Explosion. SS2 was not a threat at all to Fat Buu. He fared just as bad against Kid Buu, as well. He did fare better than Dabura, though - as in, he actually managed to fight him -, so I'd say that Dabura being in the SS2 vicinity makes sense, since he's about as strong as Cell (I assume Super Perfect).

Right, but I think Dabura couldn't even land a blow or dodge one, and took forever to recover from that kick. While Vegeta seemed in control until the bubble gum attack.

About Dabura's training, couldn't we say the same about Vegeta? I mean, it's not he didn't exploit his body in every way possible, and still had some power left hidden somewhere.

Tbf, this is anime expansion. In the manga, Dabura pierces Buu with his trident, and when he went to land a punch he was turned to candy.

With Vegeta, considering how easily Buu overpowered him after the initial pummeling, I wouldn't take his initial performance that seriously. Buu was treating it as playtime, after all. Vegeta's stronger than Dabura, that's for sure, but I think the gap is lower than the gap between him and Buu.

About the spell, yeah, there's no way to know for sure how stronger he became after being enslaved by Babidi. I'd be generous and say the boost is the same as Vegeta's, so, enough to be considerable but not that massive?

[Almighty Majin]

I am of the opinion that Dabura is comparable to Super Perfect Cell so before the Majin boost he was probably about regular Perfect Cell level with magic giving him an edge in ability. That is assuming he got a boost comparable to Vegeta's boost.