Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 8 - Official Discussion Thread

[nato25]

Reading some of the takes in these threads, I'm left with one question:

What exactly are people expecting from a new series, if not to expand on the lore and world-building of previous series?

It feels like 2015 all over again when there were complaints about Beerus removing "agency" from Freeza, lol!

To be fair that was much more agrigious. We saw Freeza's fear of the legend building and all his actions seemed rationale. Then in minus he's like oh yeah I'm scared of SSG too now, then it was like nuh none of that mattered I did it all under beerus instruction.

Beerus approved of planet Vegeta's destruction. He didn't tell Freeza to do it. There's no contradiction in Freeza's motivation either.

Is that correct? As in he's kind of happy Freeza did it anyway as it saves him doing it? In the manga isn't it a plot point that beerus is hiding from Vegeta it was him that gave the order?

[Cipher]

Easily my favorite episode yet. Beautiful fight, charming Tamagami interactions (I like him!), and some twists/plot development.

This really needed to come around two episodes earlier.

I'm guessing Arinsu may have sold out Dabra to Bobbidi?

Also, Boo getting the Freeza-Cell modern Dragon Ball revisit. Mixed feelings on that, but it does excite me for what's to come.

[Luso Saiyan]

Is that correct? As in he's kind of happy Freeza did it anyway as it saves him doing it?

Yes. When Vegeta mentions that Freeza destroyed planet Vegeta, Whis reminds Beerus that he was also in favor of its destruction. The implication being that if Freeza hadn't done it, Beerus eventually would have.

[nato25]

Is that correct? As in he's kind of happy Freeza did it anyway as it saves him doing it?

Yes. When Vegeta mentions that Freeza destroyed planet Vegeta, Whis reminds Beerus that he was also in favor of its destruction. The implication being that if Freeza hadn't done it, Beerus eventually would have.

That's good, I may have been the victim of some poor dubbing lol.

[Fizzer]

The animation and choreography in that fight, all I can say is as I sat watching it I said the words "Jesus f***ing holy wow"

[SupremeKai25]

Is that correct? As in he's kind of happy Freeza did it anyway as it saves him doing it?

Yes. When Vegeta mentions that Freeza destroyed planet Vegeta, Whis reminds Beerus that he was also in favor of its destruction. The implication being that if Freeza hadn't done it, Beerus eventually would have.

That's good, I may have been the victim of some poor dubbing lol.

Or the usual over-exaggeration from some elements in the fandom.

Destroying Planet Vegeta was still Freeza's idea, based on his own fear of the Saiyans. Beerus only approved of Freeza's actions because he also hated the Saiyans.

Similarly, why does it matter that it was a witch and not Bibidi himself who created the original Majin Buu?

First of all, there were already conflicting beliefs on whether Buu was created by Bibidi or was a natural part of the Cosmos. Now we can still say that Bibidi created Buu, he simply didn't create it by himself and needed to hire a demon witch to do so. It's also technically true that Buu existed since time immemorial since these events happened aeons ago.

It's just funny how people act like Majin Buu's backstory was set in stone when Toriyama literally contradicted himself (saying that Bibidi created Buu then backtracking and saying that Buu always existed and Bibidi simply took control of him).

[Vegard Aune]

Reading some of the takes in these threads, I'm left with one question:

What exactly are people expecting from a new series, if not to expand on the lore and world-building of previous series?

It feels like 2015 all over again when there were complaints about Beerus removing "agency" from Freeza, lol!

To be fair that was much more agrigious. We saw Freeza's fear of the legend building and all his actions seemed rationale. Then in minus he's like oh yeah I'm scared of SSG too now, then it was like nuh none of that mattered I did it all under beerus instruction.

Beerus approved of planet Vegeta's destruction. He didn't tell Freeza to do it. There's no contradiction in Freeza's motivation either.

Super flat-out states, both in the manga and the anime, that Beerus outright told Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta.

Episode 3, at about 10:15...

BEERUS: ,あれ？ サイヤ人のいた惑星ベジータは― フリーザが破壊したんだっけ？ ("Huh? But come to think of it, Freeza destroyed Planet Vegeta, where the Saiyans lived, didn't he?")
WHIS: 眠っている間に そうするようにと言いつけたのは― ビルス様ではないですか ("It was you, Beerus-sama, who told him to do so while you were sleeping, was it not?")
BEERUS: だって あいつら むかつくんだもん 特に あのベジータ王のヤツはね ("Yeah, because they pissed me off! That King Vegeta guy in particular.")

And then the first page of chapter 2 in the manga:

WHIS: しかし　ビルス様　サイヤ人のいた惑星ベジータはフリーザが既に破壊済みですよ ("But Beerus-sama. Planet Vegeta, where the Saiyans lived, has already been destroyed by Freeza.")
BEERUS: そうだった！　あいつに頼んでおいたんだった ("Oh, of course! I asked him to do that.")

[SupremeKai25]

To be fair that was much more agrigious. We saw Freeza's fear of the legend building and all his actions seemed rationale. Then in minus he's like oh yeah I'm scared of SSG too now, then it was like nuh none of that mattered I did it all under beerus instruction.

Beerus approved of planet Vegeta's destruction. He didn't tell Freeza to do it. There's no contradiction in Freeza's motivation either.

Super flat-out states, both in the manga and the anime, that Beerus outright told Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta.

Episode 3, at about 10:15...

BEERUS: ,あれ？ サイヤ人のいた惑星ベジータは― フリーザが破壊したんだっけ？ ("Huh? But come to think of it, Freeza destroyed Planet Vegeta, where the Saiyans lived, didn't he?")
WHIS: 眠っている間に そうするようにと言いつけたのは― ビルス様ではないですか ("It was you, Beerus-sama, who told him to do so while you were sleeping, was it not?")
BEERUS: だって あいつら むかつくんだもん 特に あのベジータ王のヤツはね ("Yeah, because they pissed me off! That King Vegeta guy in particular.")

And then the first page of chapter 2 in the manga:

WHIS: しかし　ビルス様　サイヤ人のいた惑星ベジータはフリーザが既に破壊済みですよ ("But Beerus-sama. Planet Vegeta, where the Saiyans lived, has already been destroyed by Freeza.")
BEERUS: そうだった！　あいつに頼んでおいたんだった ("Oh, of course! I asked him to do that.")

The two plot points coexist without any issue, because Beerus telling Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta doesn't invalidate the idea that Freeza already had plans of his own to destroy the planet. It simply means that Freeza and Beerus' ambitions aligned.

The only "new lore", if you can even call it that, is that Freeza was 1000% certain that no harm would come to him if he destroyed Planet Vegeta; not only because the Saiyans would be wiped out, but also because Beerus approved of his actions.

[Majin Buu]

Best episode yet.

The boss fight with Tamagami Number Three was great. Gorgeously animated and choreographed. Great seeing Super Saiyan 2 come out. Hoping he pulls out Super Saiyan 3 for the later fights. I like how the fight was paced, with them doing weapon fighting for the first part then getting "serious" with hand-to-hand Z-esque fighting for the remainder. I also like that there was some other element to this than just the fight, a battle of wits of sorts- And it being a cheap carnival game to boot was a great punchline, very Toriyama. Given how powerful Tamagami Three was, him living amongst ruins makes sense. He was pretty thinly characterized, but still had enough personality to be charming, with him acknowledging Goku as a fair fighter and later trying to teach himself the Kamehameha as they fly off.

We get major lore revelations, complete with more Buu arc retcons. First off, Buu is back to being a creation. It's funny, I initially hated Toriyama's initial retcon of "he wasn't created by Bibidi and just kinda always existed", but eventually came around on it as a way of making Buu more distinct as a character, now the retcon has been retconned and he's once again the magical creation of a powerful magic user.

I'm fine with it. While the original retcon did make Buu more distinct, it came at the cost of taking away a point of origin for the character. Ever since then, he's just kinda always been around with no origin to speak of. Now the character has a point of origin again and it's been fleshed out, making him yet another demonic character that originates from the Demon Realm, giving more context to Buu's nature as a majin. The Great Witch who actually created him spoke of him in terms of being a failed creation due to being uncontrollable. Not only is Buu back to being a creation, but as an artificial majin conjured into existence by another, he's now more explicitly the Demon Realm's version of an android. That's pretty cool, and knowing he was explicitly designed to be controlled and was considered a failure because he couldn't be controlled (giving more context to Kaioshin's description of Buu having been "accidentally" created), gives more weight to Buu turning against Babidi and his subsequent actions as an independent character.

As for the Great Witch who really created Buu. She has the "M" on her forehead so I'm guessing she's one of Bibidi's people, and a far more magically powerful one going by what we're told (Or perhaps it's more that she has unique magical abilities that Bibidi didn't have). Interesting that the bit from the interview retcon about him not actually being Buu's creator has been retained but recontextualized: He didn't create Buu himself. Buu was created at his request by a far more powerful sorceress. I'm fine with this and I don't think it takes away any agency from Bibidi. He asked this Great Witch to make Buu so he's still the mastermind behind Buu's existence. She seems to want to keep a low profile on being the one who actually made Buu, and I'm guessing Bibidi was all too happy to go along with a cover story that makes him look more powerful than he actually was (my headcanon since the initial retcon is that he spread a lie about being Buu's creator to make people fear him so I'm all for this). Interesting reveal that Buu rampaged through the Demon Realm too, with Arinsu implying that the Glinds themselves left the Demon Realm specifically because of Buu. This makes me wonder if Bibidi's (and by extension, Babidi's) grudge against the Kaioshin has its roots in some conflict between their people that started in the Demon Realm and further begs the question of how some of these Glinds became gods in the outer world to begin with.

We now know Arinsu's goal- Overthrow Gohma and become Daimao. Her main plan seems to be this artificial majin she's having the Great Witch create using the piece of Buu she got during her revealed brief appearance on the battlefield after Vegeta's self-destruction sacrifice (I'm not too miffed at that, it's plausible that she could have gotten in and out of there quickly enough while everyone present had their proverbial backs turned), with the Dragon Balls as a contingency if this doesn't plan out. Ditto what others have said about her being a great female antagonist. We've had some here and there in the series proper, but they've always been minor opponents/villains- You have to go outside the series proper to find anything approaching female antagonists that are main antagonists in their own right; with Towa (whom Arinsu is looking more and more like the Toriyama reworked version of, so the artificial majin she's commissioning will probably be her Mira) and Android 21 being the only ones that immediately come to mind. Arinsu is shaping up to be a major villain and I'm all for it.

Lastly, I liked how Hybis just straight up ignored Vegeta because Vegeta was being "arrogant". Vegeta being a humorless and rude guy makes him a ripe target for comedy so it's always fun to see Dragon Ball comedically taking him down an notch.

[Luso Saiyan]

The two plot points coexist without any issue, because Beerus telling Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta doesn't invalidate the idea that Freeza already had plans of his own to destroy the planet. It simply means that Freeza and Beerus' ambitions aligned.

That's true, and we also have Toriyama's own writing in Volume 'F' where he states (via Whis) that Beerus "was also in favor of its destruction". Similar goals rather than Freeza doing it under Beerus's orders.

[nineko]

As for the Great Witch who really created Buu. She has the "M" on her forehead

I somehow don't think that that's her forehead.

[Majin Buu]

As for the Great Witch who really created Buu. She has the "M" on her forehead

I somehow don't think that that's her forehead.

Ah, thanks for correcting. My brain put the M on her head despite me specifically looking for it there as I was watching and not seeing it.

[StaticMania]

If we see a glimpse into the past, I hope she'll have a bit more unique of a design.

Probably won't happen though.

[JulieYBM]

She looks a lot like Gomah, so I assumed that they were probably related in some way. That or they both wear some sort of traditional garb of some sort.

[Vegard Aune]

The two plot points coexist without any issue, because Beerus telling Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta doesn't invalidate the idea that Freeza already had plans of his own to destroy the planet. It simply means that Freeza and Beerus' ambitions aligned.

The only "new lore", if you can even call it that, is that Freeza was 1000% certain that no harm would come to him if he destroyed Planet Vegeta; not only because the Saiyans would be wiped out, but also because Beerus approved of his actions.

Sure you can harmonize them, but what I was responding to was the claim that Beerus didn't outright tell Freeza to destroy Vegeta. Which is incorrect. Both the manga and the anime very explicitly state that he did. In Battle of Gods the wording was ambiguous enough to where you could (and I did, in fact) read it as more just "Hey, did Freeza destroy Planet Vegeta? Nice, I was gonna do it myself but now I guess I don't have to", but in both versions of Super it is plainly stated that Beerus told him to do it. Was Freeza already planning to do so anyway? Probably; Everything he says in the original manga indicates that he did it first and foremost because he himself was worried about the Super Saiyan legend... But according to Super, Beerus did in fact talk to him at some point and was like "Hey can you destroy Vegeta? I'd do it myself but I'm really tired and want to go to sleep" or something to that effect.

[Extreme_kai]

This is proably the best episode of the bunch. The fight choreography was peak and honestly better than most of the stuff we got from Super. It was interesting to see Goku use his Nyoibō to fight against a large foe like Tamagami number 3. I didn't go into it thinking I'd like it much, because we already know Goku wins, but it was an interesting fight nonetheless. Other than that, we got another lore drop. Majin Buu was created by some random old witch. Not sure how I feel about that revelation( if you can even call it that). All it proves is that Buu was indeed created and not tamed. A solid 8/10 episode. It did not fail to entertain me

[Lord Beerus]

This was the finest twenty minutes of content to come out of modern Dragon Ball in YEARS.

The battle between Goku and Tamagami #3 was sensational. It was expertly paced, wonderfully storyboarded, gorgeously animated and incredibly creative from start to finish. The idea of Goku getting the Dragon Ball being determined by a cheap street strict was hilarious and a very Toriyama-like gag.

I'm really digging the whole "planning ahead while working in the shadows" angle they have going on with Arinsu. They've done a great job of setting her up as a pragmatic, plotting, conniving villain who is also quite charming and charismatic. She is shaping up to be an intriguing villain. And if I'm not wrong, the first major antagonist in a Dragon Ball story that is a woman.

I don't really care about the retcon of Majin Boo's origins. At this stage, I'm just over Toriyama re-writing aspects of Dragon Ball lore. If it serves to improve the narrative, that's great. If it takes away from it, I've lost nothing because the original manga still exists in the form Toriyama originally intended for it to begin and end.

"You're not even a king but you act so arrogant, so I ignored you." That is one of the funniest and coldest lines to come of Dragon Ball in decades.

[FortuneSSJ]

It's ironic that Daima Goku sometimes behaves more adult than DBS Goku, despite being a kid.
During the cup challenge, I can't imagine DBS Goku being calm and focused like that. He would be all excited.

[nato25]

I just realised Vegeta's sacrifice has now lead to the birth of this new Buu. Poor Vegeta, the sacrifice that keeps getting worse.

[JulieYBM]

This won't happen, but it would be cool if residual ki from Vegeta's sacrificial attack was embued in that piece of Majin Buu, thus making this future enemy a Vegeta-esque character.