Why does the majority of English-speaking DB fans hate Daima?

[Chuquita]

I guess it's a feeling like how I had with that first chunk of GT where I just would've had more fun if they'd stayed adults.

In terms of ambition, yes I agree I wish it had more. I've seen so many creative ways magic or magic-like skills can be employed in other franchises at this point that what Daima's done so far regarding magic itself seems lukewarm by comparison. All I can do is hold out hope there too.

[ZombieVito]

It's just not what the majority wanted. We wanted a continuation of the current storyline not another prequel that has nothing to do with it. Making them kids reeks of nostalgia bait and it doesn't even do anything for the story.

The new lore is good and all but the fights have been very underwhelming. Even this recent one was just not exciting to me at all. Most of the jokes have been embarrassingly cringe as well.

[AliTheZombie13]

I wish I had that much antipathy to Goku and co. being turned into kids.
Like... It changed nothing about the story or the characters except impose some very well needed limitations into the cast.
Also, Dragon Ball is a kids show. Always have been, always will be. Stop being in denial lol.

[kemuri07]

It's just not what the majority wanted. We wanted a continuation of the current storyline not another prequel that has nothing to do with it. Making them kids reeks of nostalgia bait and it doesn't even do anything for the story.

The new lore is good and all but the fights have been very underwhelming. Even this recent one was just not exciting to me at all. Most of the jokes have been embarrassingly cringe as well.

As oppose to the other Dragon Ball show that reeks of nostalgia bait?


I also do not understand people demanding the characters to be adults as if it honestly matters--because it doesn't. It's not like it's going to turn in Super 2 if they did.

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball should look outside of itself for inspiration, anyway. It wasn't until Nagamine Tatsuya took over during the Tournament of Power and Movie #20 that Dragon Ball began breaking some of its rules, and those were better off for it. Dragon Ball Daima has a slightly stronger focus on an adventure-esque setting, but it's still suffering from not using stronger character arcs at its core. The adventure elements shouldn't be the core, the characters should be. Adventuring from location-to-location and meeting new characters and discovering new things are connective tissue, not a story in-and-of-itself.

I understand the idea that Toriyama has kept trying to go for is 'fun', but guess what? 'Fun' isn't just a directionless story, fun is a story where we see characters challenged and have to look inward between fighting new foes and overcoming external, physical trials. There has to be somebody on the production team that understands this, so the fact that these 2013-onward films and story arcs have kind of just glossed over that is a really major issue that needs to be addressed—especially when everyone working on Dragon Ball since Battle of Gods-onward all have much more extensive experience and skill working on their non-Dragon Ball projects.

[The Monkey King]

This entire project is meant to be a "return the form" to Dragon Ball's more "RPG" inspirations, and kid Goku has always represented that time period.

What RPG inspired Dragon Ball? Dragon Ball was inspired by Toriyama's love of Chinese kung-fu movies.

Toriyama's involvement with world famous JRPGs came about after Dragon Ball was already an established IP.

I also do not understand people demanding the characters to be adults as if it honestly matters--because it doesn't

It's because many fans (myself included) find these chibi character designs to be boring and ugly.

Also Toriyama said he aged up Goku so he could create more dynamic fight scenes:

If I left Goku with the same proportions as when he was a child, there would always be things difficult to show in depicting the fights, so I started wanting to make him grow by a lot. It was at a time when [Dragon Ball’s] popularity had [only just] started to stabilize, and manga where the main character’s appearance changed drastically were rare, so people like my editor were quite opposed to it. But, thanks to his getting taller, I came to be able to draw illustrations such as him sitting astride a motorbike.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... t-edition/

All of Daima's fight scenes would look better if Goku didn't look like a bobble-head

[ZombieVito]

As oppose to the other Dragon Ball show that reeks of nostalgia bait?

I also do not understand people demanding the characters to be adults as if it honestly matters--because it doesn't. It's not like it's going to turn in Super 2 if they did.

True but at least the other show doesn't try to do nostalgia bait to Dragon Ball fucking GT.

[ABED]

Problems with the show will be aimed at turning characters back into kids. It's not the problem. It's the over emphasizing of lore. It's made the show boring and feel like something other than DB. Where are the characters and fun?

One of the reason GT wasn't well liked is because they turned Goku into a kid it just makes the general audience take him less serious.

They're both kids shows.

I mean I enjoy the characters thus far and I am having fun with it. DB can be a lot of things and considering where Dragon Ball has been for the longest time, I'm more than ok with what Daima is doing.


Goku being a child is more an aesthetical choice than a narrative one. This entire project is meant to be a "return the form" to Dragon Ball's more "RPG" inspirations, and kid Goku has always represented that time period. I don't think you have to really think about it that hard..because I don't.

I don't care about the new characters. Instead of being with characters we know and maybe one or two new ones, we are with very bland new ones and have separated Goku from the main cast. DB can be a lot of things but it shouldn't be boring. Spending this long to set up stuff and explain the plot and overly complicated lor just doesn't do it for me.

[JulieYBM]

As oppose to the other Dragon Ball show that reeks of nostalgia bait?

I also do not understand people demanding the characters to be adults as if it honestly matters--because it doesn't. It's not like it's going to turn in Super 2 if they did.

True but at least the other show doesn't try to do nostalgia bait to Dragon Ball fucking GT.

What are you, twelve? Like, damn girl, I don't think Dragon Ball GT is all that good a television series either, but that doesn't mean that one can't borrow from and learn lessons from it. Referencing a part of a long-running franchise is neither an inherently good or bad thing.

[StaticMania]

Also Toriyama said he aged up Goku so he could create more dynamic fight scenes

This doesn't really matter for the animation though. Goku has been an adult for decades, size has never been a factor...you could say fights became pretty same-y and any dynamic elements have come from the unique abilities of the characters and creative composition.

In fact..."size" would make for more dynamic fights now since there is a significant difference between our Chibis and the Tamagami. If he was an adult, the first part of the fight would've played out very differently. Probably wouldn't have been nearly as interesting.

---

Coulda made the Tamagami bigger.

[ImHere]

Unfortunately, I'm not invested yet in the story. It's just too dull, slow, uninteresting. It doesn't help that I didn't really want a show where they get downsized and it takes place before Super. I wanted a continuation of Super or a show that takes place after it.

Only thing I can hope for right now is some more lore about the Buus and demon realm, a new fusion, glorio/arinsu and what they are up to but it's been very slow so far. I think people have mentioned that this show may be better binged vs watching it every week. I'm curious if that's the case later.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

I guess I've been living under a rock or something, other then a few complaints hearing about it's not 2uper or the odd pacing, I feel like I have heard its been getting more a positive reception from the fandom. Haven't really heard a lot of hate outside a few fans crying it GT 2.0.

[Skar]

It's hard to tell if it's the majority or a vocal minority. I've been enjoying Daima so far and I feel it avoids most of the issues Super had since it's a single adventure saga. The most common criticism of Super was rushed production, certain ideas that were never considered good before becoming official, and the common sequel problem of repeating something that was already overdone but make it more ridiculous or occasionally relying too much on fan service and nostalgia. I don't think any of that applies to Daima or at least not as much.

[super michael]

It's hard to tell if it's the majority or a vocal minority. I've been enjoying Daima so far and I feel it avoids most of the issues Super had since it's a single adventure saga. The most common criticism of Super was rushed production, certain ideas that were never considered good before becoming official, and the common sequel problem of repeating something that was already overdone but make it more ridiculous or occasionally relying too much on fan service and nostalgia. I don't think any of that applies to Daima or at least not as much.

I didn't enjoy DBS writing, especially making Goku into a brainless idiot who looks like he drunk a potion to make him forgetful, bossy and dumb. Chi Chi and Boo were written really bad in DBS also along with Goten and Trunks not being allowed to do anything or keeping secrets.

In Daima they fixed those issues.

[Raki]

Right now I'm waiting on the dub to come out. But from the episode summaries Toriyama's world building is super interesting. I'm excited to watch it and can't find all the supposed hate around the series. People seem to be happy that Toriyama's final work is being aired.

[Mister_Popo]

Hating a work of art is never constructive. It should be applied with reason. Something you generally like should still be open to criticism. Similarly, for something you don’t like, you should also be able to acknowledge its good points. I don’t think Daima is over-criticized. On the contrary. Although it's generally a well-made series, I feel that its shortcomings are discussed too little, while those of Super are, at times, overly scrutinized.

[MCDaveG]

Haven’t seen any big and nonsensical hate so far, thank god.

But to be frank, with Kai and Super, the main trouble was, that they were kind of half-assed products with low production value. With Super being actually quite well done only during the Tournament Of Power saga.

It’s quite similar to the state of Star Wars now. Outside of bigotry and just hate, the recent shows leave a lot to be desired after years of waiting, with people not really happy about writing versus format, which I have trouble with as well.

Daima so far throws both Kai and Super out of the window with writing, art and overal production.
Only thing that I have noticed was that people were skeptical because of the GT similarities and recently, because of Majin Kuu design, but in the bubble around, everyone I spoke to really enjoys the show

[LoganForkHands73]

I've noticed that nitpicking any and all continuity errors and inconsistencies has become a recurring issue in the discussion threads for every episode, perhaps no more than usual for any new entry in the franchise, but I think I understand why Dragon Ball Daima gets the brunt of it. By every indication, Toriyama has put a lot of thought and attention into the plot this time, as evidenced by deep lore pulls and countless references to past events, once again showing that he's done his homework by re-reading his own series. That makes the apparent oversights more glaring.

I'd argue the vast majority of supposed continuity errors can be explained by Daima taking place in a continuity that largely sidesteps the events of Dragon Ball Super.

Spoiler:

Vegeta showcasing Super Saiyan 3 in the latest episode but then not thinking to use it against Beerus being a prime example.

Toriyama is better at anticipating fan nitpicks than people credit. Usually, it's whenever he's about to push the plot in a certain direction that might be cockblocked by continuity baggage. An example that always stuck out to me was Future Trunks being constantly mentioned in the RoF movie. The plot obviously hinges on Freeza's all-consuming need for revenge against Goku specifically and many casual viewers may forget that Goku wasn't the one who killed Freeza. Of course, Toriyama anticipates that hardcore fans would want to know how Freeza feels about Future Trunks. And the answer is, of course, Freeza also hates Trunks' guts for killing him, but Goku was the first one who humiliated him and Trunks can't be found by his spies on Earth anyway. Giving some lip service to Trunks wasn't necessary but it shows that Toriyama does think about these small details.

Another good example in Daima that shows two sides of this coin is Shin and Kibito de-fusing offscreen. Toriyama clearly preferred Shin and Kibito as separate characters and it seems he never really wanted them to stay fused, evidenced by concept art of Shin for the BoG movie. So he contrives an explanation for how they de-fused, using mechanics introduced in the Buu arc. Only problem is, it doesn't jive at all with how Super covered the same plot point, in an even more off-handed and forgettable way. Again, it can easily be justified as a difference in tellings. Piccolo's knowledge of the Namekian language is also anticipated in the script, but it seems that Toriyama needed a reason for Neva to join the party, so Piccolo forgets it (unless, as some have predicted, Piccolo is playing mind games with Neva).

I would say the only major retcon in Daima that struggles to stand up to scrutiny is the whole origin of the multiverse lore-dump. On the one hand, it all seems very well thought-out, but the timeframes for when everything happened don't seem to add up at all, and it feels like there were some things that Toriyama failed to take into account here. Namely, the existence of Elder Kaioshin and Grand Kaioshin (strange, because Goku mentioned the former in an earlier episode). The accompanying vignette of Shin, Gowasu and the other Kaioshin introduced in Super implies that they were the first generation of Glinds that fled the Majin Realm to be appointed as gods, when we know that can't be the case. There are also the issues of when Majin Buu's rampages happened, when the Namekians fled the Majin Realm, and so on. Some of these may be resolved with further lore-dumps, or they may just become increasingly convoluted.

[Basaku]

Dragon Ball should look outside of itself for inspiration, anyway. It wasn't until Nagamine Tatsuya took over during the Tournament of Power and Movie #20 that Dragon Ball began breaking some of its rules, and those were better off for it. Dragon Ball Daima has a slightly stronger focus on an adventure-esque setting, but it's still suffering from not using stronger character arcs at its core. The adventure elements shouldn't be the core, the characters should be. Adventuring from location-to-location and meeting new characters and discovering new things are connective tissue, not a story in-and-of-itself.

I understand the idea that Toriyama has kept trying to go for is 'fun', but guess what? 'Fun' isn't just a directionless story, fun is a story where we see characters challenged and have to look inward between fighting new foes and overcoming external, physical trials. There has to be somebody on the production team that understands this, so the fact that these 2013-onward films and story arcs have kind of just glossed over that is a really major issue that needs to be addressed—especially when everyone working on Dragon Ball since Battle of Gods-onward all have much more extensive experience and skill working on their non-Dragon Ball projects.

Very well said. This applies not only to 'fun' that cannot exist just for the sake of 'fun' without an actual strong narrative and character arcs tied to said narrative, but just as well to 'action' (where Super is the biggest offender).

All in all, GT, Daima and Super (and Buu saga as well let's be real) first and foremost lack what made Piccolo-Saiyan-Freeza-Android-Cell period such a home run which turned the franchise into a global phenomenon. Strong storytelling with strong characters arcs. Just having the DBZ-style 'action' in Super and later part of GT, or just the OG-style 'fun' in Daima and early GT is not, and never will be, enough to recapture the magic when the strong storyteling and strong character arcs are still mostly absent

[Mr Baggins]

I've noticed that nitpicking any and all continuity errors and inconsistencies has become a recurring issue in the discussion threads for every episode, perhaps no more than usual for any new entry in the franchise, but I think I understand why Dragon Ball Daima gets the brunt of it. By every indication, Toriyama has put a lot of thought and attention into the plot this time, as evidenced by deep lore pulls and countless references to past events, once again showing that he's done his homework by re-reading his own series. That makes the apparent oversights more glaring.

I think there are two different things going on here.

On the one hand, you've got a couple of people who will just base any and all of their criticism around how many plotholes they can dig up. That's pretty boring and pedantic if you ask me, but more importantly, because they spend their time with media actively seeking that stuff out, this results in sloppy analysis where most of their supposed "plotholes" are either not actually plotholes or just trivial shit. You can ask them to stop, and maybe suggest more meaningful ways to engage, but if that's how they prefer to consume stories there's not much anyone can do about it.

On the other hand, there's a fair amount of people who don't regularly engage with stories in this way but are genuinely confused about the seeming discrepancies between Daima and Super. For the kind of audience deeply invested in modern Dragon Ball content, it's a valid concern. While I can't say it bothers me personally as someone who'd rather judge these sequels on their own merits, I do find it interesting that some of Daima's lore, and even some of its characterization, distinctly feels like a different twist on some of the things that Super already explored. It's clear that Toriyama carefully combed over a lot of his old material (especially the Buu arc) in preparation for Daima, but it's hard to say what any of this means for the franchise yet.

Maybe the Super manga will have a Daima sequel arc that explains or band-aids some of that confusion, or maybe nothing will come of it and people will come to view Daima as another hard reboot. Who knows? If it's the latter, my take is somewhat in the vein of what Herms mentioned – Super and Daima would be more like different timelines in the same world, contrary to GT's case of just clearly being a separate setting altogether.

Ultimately, though, I don't think it's pragmatic to treat Daima as a separate in-universe continuity just yet. It actually references more than it differs from Super's worldbuilding, and many of the differences can be chalked up to a similar issue Super had with the production of different stories being out of order in the timeline. Thus far, I'd say I'm tentatively neutral.

_____________

I also just realized this is my first time posting in this thread. Probably because I couldn't care less what "the majority of English-speaking DB fans" think about any DB product, but I guess there are interesting conversations to have within that broader topic.