Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

[Grimlock]

The movies frequently adapt core elements of the series’ timeline but are stylized for standalone storytelling. Movie 12 references Majin Buu and past enemies, but it doesn’t conclusively anchor itself in the TV series continuity, as evidenced by contradictions like Goku and Vegeta’s unexplained dead status. “Movie logic” means power scaling and events being crafted to fit the specific movie’s plot rather than strictly adhering to the TV series’ narrative rules.

Okay, but how those contradictions affect the characters' power level? Just because the movie events deviates from the anime series, it doesn't and shouldn't mean it affects their power levels. It's not like in those deviations the characters got stronger by fighting someone that the series characters didn't (as per you).

That still doesn't answer the question, though. You say the characters "likely got stronger" and chalk it up to "movie logic" but doesn't explain why the characters are stronger. Just as you ignored what I said about the characters regularly transforming to be an out-of-universe issue, I would like you to explain to me from an in-universe perspective, without "movie logic" or the likes. Following your own logic that characters must always transform, how is Gohan strong enough to defeat Freeza in base form if he didn't face anyone else after Cell?

GT Goku likely trained intensely and it’s already pretty strong in his base form by Toei’s logic, but details are scarce, unlike Dragon Ball Super, where the results of training, such as Vegeta’s spirit control or Goku’s mastery of Ultra Instinct are explicitly contextualized. The leaps in strength for GT Goku’s base form feel more like narrative convenience compared to Toriyama’s progression system for Saiyans. Toei’s portrayal of base Saiyans surpassing Freeza or Cell often hinges on vague mentions of training, without elaborating on how such feats were achieved. It’s like (GT/Toei) Goku is a mutant like (Super) Freeza.

But a "convenience" for what? What does Toei want to accomplish by that? Toei, the same company that love transformations and will shoehorn them at every turn, how is the absence of transformations be a convenience for them? Wouldn't it be more logical that they actually transform, even if it's not under the logic that "the characters must always transform to convey leaps in strength"? Otherwise Toei having Gohan and Goku defeating major characters without transforming sends a clear message and it is what I have been saying since the beginning.

Merely stating that decades have passed in-universe isn’t sufficient for justifying power progression, especially when Toriyama himself noted exhaustion of ideas for base forms advancing that far at the time. His recent works instead use specific story developments to explain breakthroughs. Saiyans surpassing Freeza’s level typically involves not only transforming, but acquiring divine strength or using different training methods that can help them overcome their base forms’ limitations (spirit control, ultra instinct, god ki etc.). This flies in the face of how overwhelmingly powerful Base Saiyans are usually presented in the animated movies and series.

Now this is clear example of convenience, because Goku and Vegeta attained "godly powers" because it was introduced to them, not to face Freeza. It's Freeza who got absurdly stronger without context at all and, in order to provide a challenge for Goku and Vegeta (and to be "an entertaining movie"), his power was increased to their level.

And it's not just Freeza, like I also said before, any opponents introduced will have a power level relatively close to Goku and Vegeta with the sole purpose of a battle can happen or if they are too strong, so that a fusion can happen. Convenience at its peak. It doesn't mean that the power level in base form didn't get stronger, it's purely out of entertainment. As much as you don't want to acknowledge it, this is an out-of-universe issue, with no in-universe explanation. I know it, and you know it. Merchandising sales would be greatly impacted negatively had they gone with the "Saiyan beyond God" idea, imagine taking transformations out of Dragon Ball at this day and age, it's simply inconceivable.

[Hugo Boss]

You keep asking why base Saiyans are so strong in movies, yet the answer remains external, Toei amplifies base forms for whatever reason. It must be a minor concern for anyone involved in the work. In-universe, there’s no explanation beyond vague training implications, and you admit this yourself, it’s an out-of-universe issue for "entertainment value." My point stands: this deviation isn’t grounded in Toriyama’s storytelling.

You argue that Freeza’s power jump in Resurrection F is just as uncontextualized. However, the movie actively attempts to justify it, Freeza’s latent potential is awakened through training, which he never did before. This is a specific narrative device to bring Freeza back as a relevant villain. Meanwhile, Toei’s amplification of base Saiyans remains largely unexplained in-universe, leaning on spectacle over coherence.

For instance, Super explores Ultra Instinct, Spirit Control and Power of Destruction as upgrade elements in base forms in-universe. It's not just about regular training. As far as episode #8, Daima is continuing this approach. We will see if I'm wrong.

[Grimlock]

You keep asking why base Saiyans are so strong in movies, yet the answer remains external, Toei amplifies base forms for whatever reason. It must be a minor concern for anyone involved in the work. In-universe, there’s no explanation beyond vague training implications, and you admit this yourself, it’s an out-of-universe issue for "entertainment value." My point stands: this deviation isn’t grounded in Toriyama’s storytelling.

I will tell you what the "whatever reason" most likely is, as time passes and the characters keep getting stronger, they no longer need to transform to defeat past villains. So Toei has the right idea. If it turns out that what you said is true, that the characters must transform to convey any leap in strength, then hopefully we will not have to deal with this nonsense anymore after Dragon Ball Daima. With luck, Toei will spread their notion that base forms can get stronger (heads-up: Xeno Gogeta defeated One-Star Dragon using Super Saiyan, while you know, GT Gogeta used Super Saiyan 4. If that's any indication, I think we may have a bright future ahead of us!).

Meanwhile, Toei’s amplification of base Saiyans remains largely unexplained in-universe, leaning on spectacle over coherence.

Nope, long gaps in time is and will forever be a coherent explanation. Getting stronger is one of the major Dragon Ball themes (at least the Dragon Ball that I watched). But why take my word for it? It's probably better to wait for a statement like we fortunately got for the Kaioshin of South/Dai Kaioshin one. Who knows? Maybe this time you (plural) will turn out to be correct, unlike that one (we would be even if that happens, if nothing else).


Hey, thanks for the conversation. I shall remember this one as the longest I have had on this forum so far, phew! While some things are clear, others not so much. But it is what it is, I guess, it was still enlightening for me.

[Hugo Boss]

On your point about “long gaps in time” being a valid explanation, I’d agree if those gaps were utilized with explicit context about the training process. I think Dragon Ball’s strength progression shines when it’s tied to meaningful events.

Anyway, thanks for the engaging discussion! I appreciate your perspectives and insights, even if we don’t fully align on all points. Hopefully, Daima will bring clarity and consistency back to these debates, I’ll gladly welcome it. Until then, take care!

[DBZ Macky]

Nope, long gaps in time is and will forever be a coherent explanation.

This further reinforces that DBS Broly really was an amazing movie. There was a long gap between SSG Vegeta getting his ass handed to him by Broly and Base Goku keeping up with the latter but it was so action packed that it felt like only a few seconds had passed.

[Grimlock]

I don't think I'm getting your point, but if anything, that particular scene highlights how illogical fights and power level are today. To be honest, it's because of scenes like that that I don't actually doubt people who say "Movie 14 base Goku can't defeat Freeza". Android 17 keeping up with Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Freeza doing Dende knows what in such a short period that puts him on Goku level who trained under Whis...

If you are asking me what I think of that scene: Goku should have started the battle with Super Saiyan God, if logic was to be found.

[Skar]

On your point about “long gaps in time” being a valid explanation, I’d agree if those gaps were utilized with explicit context about the training process. I think Dragon Ball’s strength progression shines when it’s tied to meaningful events.

I always thought it was like you said and most of their training post-Freeza saga went into improving and unlocking new transformations. We only know they get stronger in previous forms over "long gaps in time" but no indication how much.

For example, there was seven years between the Cell and Buu sagas but Goku and Vegeta were only confirmed to have surpassed CG Gohan after they went SSJ2. That implies it wasn't clear from when they fought in base and SSJ1. If someone believes the 2x multiplier for SSJ2 then that would mean base Goku couldn't have gotten much stronger in those seven years for his SSJ to remain weaker than even a SSJ2 Gohan who lost power.

I think the same logic still applied to Super since there's no indication how much SSJG grew stronger since BoG. He unlocked a new form that combined it with SSJ, worked on improving Blue, unlocked another new form, and has been working on making UI more efficient.

[Hugo Boss]

I always thought it was like you said and most of their training post-Freeza saga went into improving and unlocking new transformations. We only know they get stronger in previous forms over "long gaps in time" but no indication how much.

That’s exactly the thrust of my argument, you got it right. Although when you consider the Toei adaptations, it’s understandable that an animated fight follows a different strength progression to properly convey scalability, which ends up supporting the idea that Base Saiyans made large leaps in power in the broader media (movies, tv series, games), but at the same time not having a considerable difference between their forms above.

[Koitsukai]

For example, there was seven years between the Cell and Buu sagas but Goku and Vegeta were only confirmed to have surpassed CG Gohan after they went SSJ2. That implies it wasn't clear from when they fought in base and SSJ1. If someone believes the 2x multiplier for SSJ2 then that would mean base Goku couldn't have gotten much stronger in those seven years for his SSJ to remain weaker than even a SSJ2 Gohan who lost power.

I think this alone buries the concept of "long periods of time equals extraordinary gains no matter what just because time". Almost a decade in the afterlife (which IIRC, was said to be like training thousands of years on Earth, although that could be Kaio just overselling himself) and his SS didn't break SS2 Gohan's landmark.
Shit, we are not even sure Vegeta reached SS2 Gohan's level without the Majin Boost, after 7 years, but granted we don't know when he went back to the gym after saying he was retiring.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So you guys think FPSSJ/MSSJ/SSJ Grade 4 is a stronger form than normal SSJ then? Because I always see people talk about SSJ2 and SSJ3 when talking about how the series focus more on forms than base improvement post Namek, but it's the Cell Saga that has all the bloat. Goku's power is stagnant throughout the Boo Saga.

[LightBing]

So you guys think FPSSJ/MSSJ/SSJ Grade 4 is a stronger form than normal SSJ then? Because I always see people talk about SSJ2 and SSJ3 when talking about how the series focus more on forms than base improvement post Namek, but it's the Cell Saga that has all the bloat. Goku's power is stagnant throughout the Boo Saga.

It's by default because it's the new "base".
Before they were anchored at let's say 50 constantly, after mastering it they could go to 1 and improve it beyond 50.
When the characters commented on it's natural like feeling, that's it. It's Base 2.0.

Toriyama said in an interview that SSJ2 and 3 are just powered up forms. They should eventually be left behind by SSJ, just like the grades were. This is if this logic still applies.

Daima seems far too close to the Boo arc for any meaningful progress to be made, so we can ascertain the direction it's going.
More forms or mastering SSJ or something completely different.

[Yuji]

So you guys think FPSSJ/MSSJ/SSJ Grade 4 is a stronger form than normal SSJ then? Because I always see people talk about SSJ2 and SSJ3 when talking about how the series focus more on forms than base improvement post Namek, but it's the Cell Saga that has all the bloat. Goku's power is stagnant throughout the Boo Saga.

I think mastering the form just improved the multiplier from x50 to x100, similar to how SS2 was improved by Trunks (and Vegeta) in Super. This is backed up by SS Vegeta being stronger than Cabba when they were equal in base. Notice how SS2 and SS3 are described as x2 SS and x4 SS2, not x100 or x400 base.

I don't think Goku and Vegeta's base forms are all too dissimilar in the Cell arc. Goku just figured out how to power up SS.

[Skar]

I think this alone buries the concept of "long periods of time equals extraordinary gains no matter what just because time". Almost a decade in the afterlife (which IIRC, was said to be like training thousands of years on Earth, although that could be Kaio just overselling himself) and his SS didn't break SS2 Gohan's landmark.
Shit, we are not even sure Vegeta reached SS2 Gohan's level without the Majin Boost, after 7 years, but granted we don't know when he went back to the gym after saying he was retiring.

That's true about the afterlife and it's implied to be the most effective place to train. That would mean their growth during other timeskips should be even less which is what we see. There was five years between DB and DBZ and Goku and Piccolo were slightly stronger but less than twice as strong going by power levels given in guidebooks. There was three years training for the cyborgs. Goku slightly improved his basic SSJ and Gohan got closer to unlocking SSJ.

[shadd21]

According to Geekdom,

Spoiler:

With the third eye, Gomah is stronger than Buu and ssj3 Goku

[Thani]

According to Geekdom,

Spoiler:

With the third eye, Gomah is stronger than Buu and ssj3 Goku

Well, I wouldn't mind that. This third eye is being hyped as a lost relic of the great demon kings, it stands to reason it could empower said king to a level beyond even the "legendary majin".

[ZombieVito]

They did get weaker when turned into kids confirmed.

[AtlasFlame18]

They did get weaker when turned into kids confirmed.

This makes things interesting because is the implication that they can't beat the Kraken as kids within their base forms or is that they can't beat the Kraken period regardless of any transformations?

[ZombieVito]

They did get weaker when turned into kids confirmed.

This makes things interesting because is the implication that they can't beat the Kraken as kids within their base forms or is that they can't beat the Kraken period regardless of any transformations?

The latter.

Why wouldn't they use the transformations they have right now against the Kraken?

[Hugo Boss]

They did get weaker when turned into kids confirmed.

I don’t think this is exactly what Goku is implying though. I think he is only saying the kraken is a bit too much for their current selves, which could mean they need to get stronger to beat it.

[Thani]

I'm honestly impressed that the Kraken is somehow that much stronger than a Tamagami that Goku doesn't even consider trying to fight it.