Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 12 - Official Discussion Thread

[Noah]

First thought: WHAT THE ACTUAL F*CK?

Well, things were pretty chill in Daima, consistent animation, a story that, despite annoying retcons, didn’t spark any major debates or split people like a lot of Super episodes did, but let's go:


• Thank God, the NEP didn’t mean Goku taking over the fight for Vegeta. I gotta give props to the production for this one; this NEP format is the best of all the series because it lets us speculate about the next episode in just a few seconds with a one-word title.

• Vegeta did what I expected from the last episode, stopped playing around and got serious with his opponent, but I thought he’d have more trouble transforming into SSJ2 (little did I know what was coming…)

• Tamagami No. 3 could’ve taken advantage of Duu crying and wanting chocolate to take him down, but maybe he wasn’t capable of that. Throughout the fight, he never showed an advantage over Duu.

• The Kuu and Duu duo, as mentioned before, is still pretty effective. The first Majin actually has better qualities than just being a fighter.

• Gomah and Degesu are worried because both Arinsu and his enemies have the Dragon Balls from the Demon World, but are they just gonna keep watching without doing anything about it?

• Still having Daima going by the GT vibes, NEP kinda hints they'll be in a place with giant stuff/creatures


Now, let me address the elephant in the room: Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta


Man, at first, I thought he was just massively boosting his power as SSJ2. I never expected this to be the so awaited official scene where we’d see Vegeta as SSJ3!

Because holy f*ck, THIS DOESN’T MAKE ANY SENSE! Let’s break it down: people were already criticizing Goku for not struggling much and being able to freely use his transformations and techniques, despite Gomah's wish. Plus, the Demon World is a completely different environment from Earth. So, if the wish was just "aesthetic," was the difficulty just about adapting to this new world’s environment and their child bodies? And even then, was it really that easy for Vegeta? He’s been in the Demon World for way less time than Goku and fought way less, so why was it so easy for him?

Not to mention the CONTRADICTION this creates in Super. Why the hell didn’t Vegeta use this against Beerus? What’s the logic here? If he could do it as a kid, it would’ve been WAY easier as an adult!

Now, from an out-of-universe perspective, if this part of the script came from Toriyama, why didn’t he do this in Battle of Gods (2013)? For the LOVE OF GOD, imagine the theaters going crazy with the perfect chance they had to debut SSJ3 Vegeta that was after Beerus slapped Bulma? I know Toriyama’s never been a fan of Vegeta, given what they did to him in Resurrection of F (2015), but seriously, why just now give this bone to his fans, even knowing the contradictions it causes with future stories? They even had a second CHANCE to show this form by fixing it in Episode #007 of DBS, but still opted to stay “faithful” to the BoG plot (despite changing the setting and other details) and kept Vegeta as just an enraged SSJ2 form.

Apologies to anyone who really enjoyed it, hey at least it finally ends the debate about whether Vegeta can use SSJ3, but for me, given the better opportunities they had, this wasn’t a great way to do it...

I'm not invested in Vegeta's arc...because he doesn't really have one. This fight was like watching paint dry.

Sure, like Goku has an arc besides eating a lot and acting selfish to fight really strong guys.

Seems like they went with an alternate Toryama concept art for SSJ3 Vegeta. Pretty cool.

Spoiler:

SSJ3 Vegeta design is probably the only good thing about it.

[Jord]

I imagine they'll probably retroactively justify its absence by the BoG story arc via Vegeta dismissing the form as useless beyond a quick and draining power boost.

That would be difficult to explain because Vegeta completely lost it against Beerus, in that situation he would probably use the highest SSJ form he could access because he wouldn’t be thinking all that clearly.

I also never understood the idea that SSJ3 was useless, it increases your power output substantially. Is that a Super era retcon I'm not aware of?

That comes from the Buu fight, where Goku tries to gather power to get up to SSJ3 so he can fight Kid Buu, but since he's alive, SSJ3 drains his energy way too fast for him to be able to sustain it.

[JulieYBM]

The Vegeta stuff was honestly really boring. I know I haven't been sleeping lately, but this episode kind of put me to sleep. I think my favorite bit was Kuu once again just being the most enthusiastic aniki as possible.

I'm not invested in Vegeta's arc...because he doesn't really have one. This fight was like watching paint dry.

I had the opposite reaction to the episode. For me, the Majin Duu stuff felt a bit underwhelming, especially with how little they utilized Tamagami No. 1. Vegeta’s fight started slow for sure, but the reveal of SS3 really hooked me. It raised the stakes in a way I found compelling. And the way Vegeta solved his mental test recalled how his IQ used to be a lot different from the other Saiyans. Different perspectives though.

I really wasn't invested in the Super Saiyan 3 thing. Nothing surrounding what has been going on with Vegeta during Dragon Ball Daima makes it feel like a real move forward for his character. Vegeta gets turned into a kid, Vegeta is crabby like usual, then Vegeta fights a guy who doesn't really interact with him and become some sort of obstacle to his arc as a character other than "Well, time to fight now." It's just boring. Let Vegeta and Tamagami #2 build up a relationship of some sort, have Vegeta feel threatened by him somehow, have Tamagami #2 understand how to read Vegeta and get on his nerves. Anything so that the fight actually feels like it's a climax of something, rather than just a box being checked off.

[tonysoprano300]

I imagine they'll probably retroactively justify its absence by the BoG story arc via Vegeta dismissing the form as useless beyond a quick and draining power boost.

That would be difficult to explain because Vegeta completely lost it against Beerus, in that situation he would probably use the highest SSJ form he could access because he wouldn’t be thinking all that clearly.

I also never understood the idea that SSJ3 was useless, it increases your power output substantially. Is that a Super era retcon I'm not aware of?

That comes from the Buu fight, where Goku tries to gather power to get up to SSJ3 so he can fight Kid Buu, but since he's alive, SSJ3 drains his energy way too fast for him to be able to sustain it.

It does drain stamina but I wouldn’t call it useless. Gotenks was using it to Pummel Boo and arguably could have won if he took the fight seriously. And even though it drained his Stamina, Goku was able to contend with Kidd Boo for a while before his body gave out

I think its definitely useful, it just has drawbacks that the user needs to consider. Just like Kaioken.

[Jord]

I agree. You just have to have a LOT of stamina to keep it up.

[Saturnine]

Well I'll be damned, gotta say Daima has been pretty unapologetic with the retcons.

I don't mind Vegeta going SSj3 from an in-universe perspective. There was never any reason he shouldn't be able to, Kakarot is not that much more special than him after all. I disagree with anyone who thinks otherwise. But damn does this create a continuity mess. I mean, it IS implied by the Future Trunks arc in Super that Vegeta could do SSj3 if he really wanted to, he just laughs off the idea because he's got way better stuff at his disposal at that point. Anyhow, we might see SSj3 Vegeta drawn by Toyotaro in the near future, from the looks of it. They've taken a lot of time before to display some transformations which the characters had been implicitly capable of, such as giving Vegeta SSj God in animation only as late as "Broly". But yeah, this episode was tons of fun! The fights were great, and Kuu & Duu are turning out to be really complex characters in their own right, rather than just mindless mooks with no personality, really glad care has been put into making them look interesting like this.

Apart from this, having watched Daima since the beginning, I can say that it definitely does the low stakes stuff much better than GT did. GT continually tried to get us to suspend disbelief for absolutely non-threatening situations being serious obstacles for Goku. The whole search for the DBs arc was one big marathon of that. In Daima on the other hand, encounters with mooks are just that and the show doesn't lead you to think otherwise even for a moment, while the stronger enemies who provide a challenge are properly introduced and have appropriate esteem in the world - something once again failed at in GT. Not to mention Daima has a way, way stronger Toriyama spirit in the character designs, dialogue and humor.

[Grimlock]

Vegeta getting Super Saiyan 3 at this point makes perfect sense, as this takes place one year after Majin Buu saga, so the only natural and expected path for him is to go after that transformation.

This is another blow Dragon Ball Daima delivers on Movie 14 and Dragon Ball Super and makes the angry Vegeta moment from those works to be the flawed/faulty one, not Dragon Ball Daima itself for (re)introducing it. That said, I'm kind of expecting some sort of acknowledgement on Vegeta's part about Super Saiyan 3 being a shitty form and ditch it eventually, which could or would explain why he didn't use it against Beerus (?), who knows.

I wonder if we will be able to see adult Vegeta as Super Saiyan 3, or are we going to have another "teen Gotenks" case on our hands too?

[TheSaiyanGod]

Let Vegeta and Tamagami #2 build up a relationship of some sort, have Vegeta feel threatened by him somehow, have Tamagami #2 understand how to read Vegeta and get on his nerves. Anything so that the fight actually feels like it's a climax of something, rather than just a box being checked off.

Yeah, I kind of agree with that. Episode 8 had Tamagami 3 respecting Goku as a figher after their battle and we even saw him trying to mimic Goku's Kamehameha movement as they went away, which I thought was a cool little build up to their relationship (showing yet again Goku's influence on the people he meet, even tho it's not something new in this series or anything like that). Vegeta has a very different personality, so I was looking forward to see how he would interact with the Tamagami. Tamagami 2 right off the bat insulted Vegeta and he has a short temper, so it would've been fun to see more of their banter and it would end up showing Tamagami 2's personality compared to 3, giving some nice character interactions.
I also expected more reactions to SS3 Vegeta from other characters like Panzy and Glorio, considering how easily impressed they are by the Earth characters.

Even then I liked the episode. The stuff with SS3 Vegeta, the battle, the final challenge, Kuu and Duu's dynamic, it was all fun stuff to me despite some things I would change.
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I really don't care that much about the potential inconsistence with BoG tho. I mean, yeah, Vegeta could've used it, but it's well know the fact that SS3 is a flawed form. I can see Vegeta just realizing that SS3 was not worth it, and he would be better just improving other forms (the manga touched on that too with Future Trunks).

He also heard from King Kai that Goku lost to Beerus (despite having SS3), so he knew the form would not change things against him anyway. Part of what makes the ''my Bulma'' scene a cool moment for Vegeta is also the fact that he managed to briefly surpass Goku despite using a weaker transformation.

I know it will be a big deal for some people and I would've definitively liked to see it in action during previous moments, but it was such a short lived form in termos of usefulness that I don't think it would matter that much. It certainly could not have the same impact considering that Modern DB quickly jumped to other forms and SS3 just became obsolete. What makes seeing SS3 Vegeta now such an unexpected and somehow satisfactory moment is precisely the fact that it's our first time seeing Vegeta use it (and to be honest, Daima is probably the only series that could give any relevance to the transformation at this point since it's set before Super). And considering how he later mastered more complex stuff, I don't think anyone expected this form to be unattainable to him. For me it's just nice to know he actually did it during this time and we have a moment dedicated to it, even if at this point the form doesn't matter anymore.

[Mr Baggins]

Holy shit, what an episode. Fantastic two-parter.

So design-wise, Vegeta's canonical Super Saiyan 3 looks a bit different than any of the videogames or Goku's version, and actually resembles Toriyama's early concept art. I dig it. Looks surprisingly good on him. I don't care if it doesn't keep continuity with Super, though I'm still not convinced it's intentionally trying to abandon it either. I'd just wait and see first.

Character dynamics are stellar as always. Kuu is the brains while Duu is the brawn, but poor Kuu's contributions aren't getting any credit from Arinsu yet. Neva remains an intriguing and mysterious character. And then there's everything with Vegeta, his "refined" distaste for bugs, and his frustration at the Tamagami's hilariously condescending math riddle. Fantastic shit!

Called it in the previous thread that Vegeta was having issues at first because he wasn't accustomed to his body. This episode confirms that in one of its very first lines of dialogue, then Goku later suggests Vegeta needed to fight to acclimate like he did. Sure would be nice not to have weekly discourse plagued by takes routinely taking everything out of context instead of waiting for the story to unfold, but whatever.

Lastly, I don't expect Daima's episodic structure to go away just because we had an extended climactic halfway plot. Fine by me.

What is that, 12 freethrows in a row now? Daima does NOT miss!

I’m also wonder just how loyal is Degesu to Gomah, he seems to not really want to go against his sister but she and Gorman are definitely gonna butt heads at some point with Goku and the gang just being kinda thrusted into the middle of it all.

Episode 6 foreshadows Degesu being even more ambitious and secretive than Arinsu. I wouldn't sleep on him.

[Jord]

So i'm guessing they'll use the bugs later on and we get SSJ3 Gogeta/Vegeto for the big fight?
Sure we've seen them both in Heroes and such but I guess it's something to sell new merch for.

[Kaboom]

By all means, Daima, do please keep throwing more fuel onto the "separate continuity from either version of Super" fire.

[Zinnia]

GT continually tried to get us to suspend disbelief for absolutely non-threatening situations being serious obstacles for Goku. The whole search for the DBs arc was one big marathon of that. In Daima on the other hand, encounters with mooks are just that and the show doesn't lead you to think otherwise even for a moment,

Need I remind you of the unbeatable SS3 tier Kraken, which quickly made people think of GT's Worms?
Daima has similar moments to GT and let's not pretend otherwise here. Both have fodder villains for the cast to dispose of, and then strong villains like Ledgic/Luud/Rilldo who escalate in power, just like Tamagami here.

"Daima has way stronger Toriyama spirit"
I mean it's written by him so duh? Nobody's arguing that.

"in character designs, humor."
Now that's a lie, considering the main cast of GT and Spaceship were Toriyama's designs. The Villains weren't, true, but the good guys were. Vegeta's moustache moment is Toriyama's since he added it to begin with.

[Hugo Boss]

The Vegeta stuff was honestly really boring. I know I haven't been sleeping lately, but this episode kind of put me to sleep. I think my favorite bit was Kuu once again just being the most enthusiastic aniki as possible.

I'm not invested in Vegeta's arc...because he doesn't really have one. This fight was like watching paint dry.

I had the opposite reaction to the episode. For me, the Majin Duu stuff felt a bit underwhelming, especially with how little they utilized Tamagami No. 1. Vegeta’s fight started slow for sure, but the reveal of SS3 really hooked me. It raised the stakes in a way I found compelling. And the way Vegeta solved his mental test recalled how his IQ used to be a lot different from the other Saiyans. Different perspectives though.

I really wasn't invested in the Super Saiyan 3 thing. Nothing surrounding what has been going on with Vegeta during Dragon Ball Daima makes it feel like a real move forward for his character. Vegeta gets turned into a kid, Vegeta is crabby like usual, then Vegeta fights a guy who doesn't really interact with him and become some sort of obstacle to his arc as a character other than "Well, time to fight now." It's just boring. Let Vegeta and Tamagami #2 build up a relationship of some sort, have Vegeta feel threatened by him somehow, have Tamagami #2 understand how to read Vegeta and get on his nerves. Anything so that the fight actually feels like it's a climax of something, rather than just a box being checked off.

I see where you’re coming from, but I think the same could be said about the other Tamagami fights. They feel like Pokémon Gym battles. Granted the first one gave us a top notch animation. I admit though there was perhaps no other way to introduce Duu and Kuu without sacrificing #1.

I actually think SS3 make this fight stand out from the others, because I felt Daima needed to deliver a greater challenge than Tamagami #3 at this point to provide a sense of escalation. I guess a little self-conflicting buildup and more intense movements could have made it a lot better directed, as it was a long awaited moment for a lot of fans.

[Noah]

By all means, Daima, do please keep throwing more fuel onto the "separate continuity from either version of Super" fire.

Like Super did it with GT, huh?

That said, I'm kind of expecting some sort of acknowledgement on Vegeta's part about Super Saiyan 3 being a shitty form and ditch it eventually, which could or would explain why he didn't use it against Beerus (?), who knows.

Well, that's make two on the list:

1. Piccolo lying to Neva (to correct him saying he can't speak namekian)
2. Vegeta stating SSJ3 is a waste of transformation (explaining why he didn't use it against Beerus)

He also heard from King Kai that Goku lost to Beerus (despite having SS3), so he knew the form would not change things against him anyway.

Sure, like Vegeta in a fit of rage could think that clearly.

Part of what makes for me the ''my Bulma'' scene a cool moment for Vegeta is also the fact that he managed to briefly surpass Goku despite using a weaker transformation.

Corrected now, cause battle power wise this scene was pretty sh*tty. I know that the manga have addressed having more power in lesser forms, but that was never the case in the main continuity (anime). So don't change the fact they missed a BIG and better opportunity to have SSJ3 Vegeta there.

[JulieYBM]

I had the opposite reaction to the episode. For me, the Majin Duu stuff felt a bit underwhelming, especially with how little they utilized Tamagami No. 1. Vegeta’s fight started slow for sure, but the reveal of SS3 really hooked me. It raised the stakes in a way I found compelling. And the way Vegeta solved his mental test recalled how his IQ used to be a lot different from the other Saiyans. Different perspectives though.

I really wasn't invested in the Super Saiyan 3 thing. Nothing surrounding what has been going on with Vegeta during Dragon Ball Daima makes it feel like a real move forward for his character. Vegeta gets turned into a kid, Vegeta is crabby like usual, then Vegeta fights a guy who doesn't really interact with him and become some sort of obstacle to his arc as a character other than "Well, time to fight now." It's just boring. Let Vegeta and Tamagami #2 build up a relationship of some sort, have Vegeta feel threatened by him somehow, have Tamagami #2 understand how to read Vegeta and get on his nerves. Anything so that the fight actually feels like it's a climax of something, rather than just a box being checked off.

I see where you’re coming from, but I think the same could be said about the other Tamagami fights. They feel like Pokémon Gym battles. Granted the first one gave us a top notch animation. I admit though there was perhaps no other way to introduce Duu and Kuu without sacrificing #1.

I actually think SS3 make this fight stand out from the others, because I felt Daima needed to deliver a greater challenge than Tamagami #3 at this point to provide a sense of escalation. I guess a little self-conflicting buildup and more intense movements could have made it a lot better directed, as it was a long awaited moment for a lot of fans.

I don't disagree. My criticism does go for the other fights, too. At least Pokemon Gym Battles in the anime are usually built around character arcs in the later series and have the characters interact with those gym leaders outside of battle. The Tamagami here have next to nothing brought to the forefront about them as characters and how their histories affect where they are now. Like, after a dozen episodes of constant battles against mooks that provide no exciting character stuff or tons of lore dumping, the Tamagami suddenly aren't really getting any of that screen time?

Like, Dragon Ball Daima is somehow the ultimate pinnacle of Toriyama's "I don't really want to think about it" attitude that had kind of just infested most of Dragon Ball, and I think that's a major shame. There's needs to be somebody saying, "No, we need to actually do a story and character arc here." I don't know if Yashima was hired to be a yesman or whatever, but somebody at the top is not really making this series as good as it could be, and that's really starting to get frustrating as a view. At least Dragon Ball Super let a number of their new characters have vibrant personalities and arcs.

[TheSaiyanGod]

He also heard from King Kai that Goku lost to Beerus (despite having SS3), so he knew the form would not change things against him anyway.

Sure, like Vegeta in a fit of rage could think that clearly.

For all we know he could have ditched the form after Daima (IIRC isn't BoG years after Daima)?

But as I said, this is just how I particulary feel about it. I don't care that much about this inconsistency specifically, since I can reconcile in my head Vegeta not using it after and for me it's satisfying enough. As I also said, the fact that SS3 was hardly relevant after the Buu arc and that there wasn't really any important moment post BoG where Vegeta SHOULD have used it also helps for me. The form wasn't important to the point where it matters to the story the fact that Vegeta actually had it all this time before Super (which is probably why they even gave to him in the first place).

Anyway, I can also understand people having a problem with it. I just don't care that much about it specifically, even if I can see why it would be so weird assuming Daima and Super are part of the same continuity.

Corrected now, cause battle power wise this scene was pretty sh*tty. I know that the manga have addressed having more power in lesser forms, but that was never the case in the main continuity (anime). So don't change the fact they missed a BIG and better opportunity to have SSJ3 Vegeta there.

So do you think a better time for Vegeta to show SS3 is for a few seconds fighting Beerus, only to be knocked out right after?

A transformation being mastered to the point of getting significantly stronger and more precise is actually something we saw back in the Cell arc with Goku and Gohan. Anyway, I'm not even saying that it actually happened with Vegeta during BoG, we don't know if he specifically trained his SS2 form to surpass the power of a SS3. He actually only surpass Goku through a rage boost, so a very specific context. The point is that he did it while using a weaker transformation, which I think is a cool thing to have in this scene in particular. I don't see how it doesn't make sense in this context.

[SupremeKai25]

SSJ3 Vegeta doesn't contradict BoG at all btw. SSJ3 has NEVER been associated with burning rage, so it makes literally no sense for angry Vegeta to turn SSJ3 against Beerus.

Once again nothing is contradicted. I must say, Daima is shaping up to be a perfect prequel to Super.

[nato25]

SSJ3 Vegeta doesn't contradict BoG at all btw. SSJ3 has NEVER been associated with burning rage, so it makes literally no sense for angry Vegeta to turn SSJ3 against Beerus.

Once again nothing is contradicted. I must say, Daima is shaping up to be a perfect prequel to Super.

It will be interesting to go over all the contradictions once all is said and done.

I really liked this episode.

Of course ssj3 Vegeta was hype (damn you spoilers though). Although I found Vegeta's fight before then to be pretty boring, Neva giving the boost to the Tamagami was probably the best part about it with the small colour change as well.

Really liked how Duu overwhelmed the Tamagami and Kuu with the math assist. I will say I've come around on his design now, it does match his goofy personality. Arinsu should give her babies more credit though!

Will be interesting to see Gomahs moves from here on out.

[shadowfox87]

Amazing episode! This was way better than Goku's debut of SSJ3! Kudos to Vegeta. I'm happy for him. Since Neva boosted the Tamagami, it was the strongest Tamagami, even stronger than the one Duu was fighting. which As for Kuu and Duu, it seems that the intelligence and strength have been divided. Maybe if they fuse, they'll become more like Kid Buu and be a powerful fighter. Otherwise, I think the third eye on that guy's belt is going to be what Gomah needs to be any challenge.

[Rory]

God damn, we're going Super Saiyan 3? A form that's implied to be too strong for a single mortal body to maintain? Literally what was the point in making them kids?
Design-wise, I'm really into Vegeta making SS3 his own. It's interesting how dorky the super long standy-upy hair looks on an adult (Beast Gohan) compared to a smaller character (SS2 Gohan/SS3 Vegeta). For some reason it just really works on kid characters.
Anyone else belly-laugh at the 2-star Tamagami's quiz? When it was revealed to be an active listening/logic question? After the two other finales, it was pure Toriyama.

All that aside, please Daima, keep retconning Super.