Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 12 - Official Discussion Thread

[FortuneSSJ]

It's not surprising that Vegeta got SSJ3 because leakers spoiled it, but i's surprising how much better he looks than Goku and Gotenks. Even GT kid Goku SS3 didn't look that good. I love how the hair doesn't do a curve backwards, and just stays straight. First time I lke how the form looks. It's beautiful.

On other hand, Majin kuu beating Tamagami 1 is indeed surprising. I thought he would be another failure.

I would like to know what happens if someone wins the fight but fails the final challenge? What forbids them taking the Dragon Ball by force?
Tamagami 1 challenge was fucked up. Only plot can make someone give the answer.

[IntangibleFancy]

Anyone else think the fights with tamagami 1 and 2 were not as good as 3? Like visually there's nothing to complain about, the fights weren't bad at all, but apart from Duu's stretchy/bounciness the actual animation and fight choreography was a clear cut below episode 8.

Like ep 8 had a lot of stuff happening consistently, weighty hits, tricky moves, and the way Goku and Tamagami #3 were doing all sorts of counters and parries with one-another really made it the peak of Daima so far. I also much preferred the way T3 handled his weapon compared to his brothers.

I did prefer their after-fight challenges over his though.

[LightBing]

Anyone else think the fights with tamagami 1 and 2 were not as good as 3? Like visually there's nothing to complain about, the fights weren't bad at all, but apart from Duu's stretchy/bounciness the actual animation and fight choreography was a clear cut below episode 8. Like ep 8 had a lot of stuff happening consistently, weighty blows, tricky moves, and the way Goku and Tamagami #3 were doing tricky counters and parries with one another really made it the peak of Daima so far. I also much preferred the way T3 handled his weapon compared to his brothers.

I did prefer their after-fight challenges over his though.

I agree. That fight in episode 8 was just stellar, hard for anything to compare and not seem generic.

[StaticMania]

Vegeta's fight kind of suffered a bit more from him being not as flexible as a fighter...his domination wasn't as cool as it could've been.

Though Tamagami #1 flailing his sword chasing Duu was a bit much, other than that...it was fine.

[fadeddreams5]

My takeaways

• I love Majin Kuu as a support character, and his dynamic with Duu. He is wholesome, intelligent, and patient. So glad he wasn't the real replacement for Buu

• I actually love the design of SSJ3 Vegeta because it makes him much more distinctive to SSJ3 Goku. I just hope that they don't redesign SSJ3 Goku if he shows up.

• That said, Vegeta knowing SSJ3 feels inconsistent with BoG when everyone is shocked he surpassed Goku using that bs rage boost that should have never existed. That moment is now inconsistent to DBZ and Daima.

Overall, so far, the direction of Daima has felt more carefully thought out than sloppy ass Super, though its pacing has been bad, and tone is kiddy af.

[tonysoprano300]

SSJ3 Vegeta doesn't contradict BoG at all btw. SSJ3 has NEVER been associated with burning rage, so it makes literally no sense for angry Vegeta to turn SSJ3 against Beerus.

Once again nothing is contradicted. I must say, Daima is shaping up to be a perfect prequel to Super.

Its more that Vegeta would be throwing the entire kitchen sink at Beerus, I don’t think anyone is saying that rage triggers SSJ3. It just means that Vegeta held back against Beerus for some reason

[Chuquita]

Hulu's Daima ep 12 thumbnail spoilered ssj3 Vegeta for me; <sarcasm>thanks, whoever chooses those.</sarcasm>

+Goku ready to jump in for the rescue, but Vegeta escaped getting eaten.
+Vegeta winning the math problem via real world logic.
+shorter hair ssj3 Vegeta differentiates from how Goku's looks. I'm good with that.
+Kuu's "assist" with Duu's math problem. They are good brothers and I hope they someday meet papa Buu.
+Vegeta being all 'oh I'm too refined to eat bugs now' when Goku offers him one.

-felt like there was little to no buildup for ssj3 Vegeta. It just happened.
-Neva casting that buff on the tamagami was unfair and kinda suspicious.

I wonder if ep 13 is gonna be in the vein of SMB3 World 4 or more like Honey I Shrunk the Kids.

[SupremeKai25]

SSJ3 Vegeta doesn't contradict BoG at all btw. SSJ3 has NEVER been associated with burning rage, so it makes literally no sense for angry Vegeta to turn SSJ3 against Beerus.

Once again nothing is contradicted. I must say, Daima is shaping up to be a perfect prequel to Super.

Its more that Vegeta would be throwing the entire kitchen sink at Beerus, I don’t think anyone is saying that rage triggers SSJ3. It just means that Vegeta held back against Beerus for some reason

He didn't hold back, it just means he kept training SSJ2 instead of SSJ3 to the point that his enraged SSJ2 mode was greater than his SSJ3.

It's simply not an inconsistency.

[kemuri07]

Kuu and Duu are DA BOYS and should be protected at all cost. Kuu coming in clutch with the Chocolate bar made me smile.

Look, I get where Julie is coming from and in some cases I do agree. I do think a sticking point with me is that a lot of the storytelling is very pedestrian compared to other anime and more could be done on both the characterization and world building fronts. However--I kinda don't care. We're 12 episodes into this so I don't really expect Daima to move beyond what it's been giving us: It's what you see is what you get. And on that front I think Daima has been more than adequate. A fun way to waste a Friday afternoon. And while that may be a "backwards compliment," I've come to terms with what Dragon Ball means in my life. Basically I don't expect it to be anything more than simply "pleasant" because it can't be. Dragon Ball is an institution and the amount of nerd stench would occur if there was an actual storyline that changed the status quo would destroy the internet. So we get fun larks like Superhero, or pleasant anime like Daima.

And again that's not me being bitter. At the end of the day...DBZ ended and was able to end on its own terms. As far as I'm concerned, Super can go on being...Super and Daima is a fun spinoff, none of which affects how I feel about DBZ.

[AliTheZombie13]

Kuu and Duu are DA BOYS and should be protected at all cost. Kuu coming in clutch with the Chocolate bar made me smile.

Look, I get where Julie is coming from and in some cases I do agree. I do think a sticking point with me is that a lot of the storytelling is very pedestrian compared to other anime and more could be done on both the characterization and world building fronts. However--I kinda don't care. We're 12 episodes into this so I don't really expect Daima to move beyond what it's been giving us: It's what you see is what you get. And on that front I think Daima has been more than adequate. A fun way to waste a Friday afternoon. And while that may be a "backwards compliment," I've come to terms with what Dragon Ball means in my life. Basically I don't expect it to be anything more than simply "pleasant" because it can't be. Dragon Ball is an institution and the amount of nerd stench would occur if there was an actual storyline that changed the status quo would destroy the internet. So we get fun larks like Superhero, or pleasant anime like Daima.

And again that's not me being bitter. At the end of the day...DBZ ended and was able to end on its own terms. As far as I'm concerned, Super can go on being...Super and Daima is a fun spinoff, none of which affects how I feel about DBZ.

I guess that's the most sensible thing one can say about Daima right now.
It's been 12 episodes, more than half of the show at this point, so my conclusion about it is pretty clear: It's an unambitious Saturday Morning Cartoon, "more of the same" Dragon Ball. There will be Goku being dumb, Vegeta being grumpy, bombastic fight scenes, transformations to sell toys and fanservice to little boys, and nothing really much beyond that.

At this point, I can confidently say Daima isn't for me.
It's a kids show, and it's perfectly okay to like it for what it is.
But I'm a boring old adult, and I've already seen all of this, so I'm left unimpressed and bored.

[Hugo Boss]

I don't disagree. My criticism does go for the other fights, too. At least Pokemon Gym Battles in the anime are usually built around character arcs in the later series and have the characters interact with those gym leaders outside of battle. The Tamagami here have next to nothing brought to the forefront about them as characters and how their histories affect where they are now. Like, after a dozen episodes of constant battles against mooks that provide no exciting character stuff or tons of lore dumping, the Tamagami suddenly aren't really getting any of that screen time?

Like, Dragon Ball Daima is somehow the ultimate pinnacle of Toriyama's "I don't really want to think about it" attitude that had kind of just infested most of Dragon Ball, and I think that's a major shame. There's needs to be somebody saying, "No, we need to actually do a story and character arc here." I don't know if Yashima was hired to be a yesman or whatever, but somebody at the top is not really making this series as good as it could be, and that's really starting to get frustrating as a view. At least Dragon Ball Super let a number of their new characters have vibrant personalities and arcs.

I think you raise some very valid points. The lack of meaningful development for the Tamagami, or even integration of their backgrounds into the fights, does feel like a missed opportunity. I like fan-service moments like SS3, but there’s definitely a sense that more could’ve been done to weave these battles into the characters’ growth and the larger narrative.

God damn, we're going Super Saiyan 3? A form that's implied to be too strong for a single mortal body to maintain? Literally what was the point in making them kids?
Design-wise, I'm really into Vegeta making SS3 his own. It's interesting how dorky the super long standy-upy hair looks on an adult (Beast Gohan) compared to a smaller character (SS2 Gohan/SS3 Vegeta). For some reason it just really works on kid characters.
Anyone else belly-laugh at the 2-star Tamagami's quiz? When it was revealed to be an active listening/logic question? After the two other finales, it was pure Toriyama.

All that aside, please Daima, keep retconning Super.

It’s less about pure power limits and more about how they adapt to their smaller bodies. They need to work harder to access their usual strength mid-fight, which adds stakes and tension.

The tests were great, too. Each one highlights different mind skills, forcing teamwork and strategy. And yeah, Daima seems to retcon Super subtly while keeping its references intact, which feels like a nice middle ground.

[Mr Baggins]

I actually think SS3 make this fight stand out from the others, because I felt Daima needed to deliver a greater challenge than Tamagami #3 at this point to provide a sense of escalation.

There's also just more going on visually in this fight. You've got the kraken being an environmental hazard, the battle shifting constantly between the sky and underwater, Vegeta parting the sea like he's Moses or some shit, etcetera. Lots of scenic hooks to latch on to so it doesn't feel repetitive. Tamagami #3 had better animation and choreography, but I can't remember as much of that fight in comparison outside of the Super Saiyan 2 Kamehameha.

Regarding character arcs, though, Daima is a 20 episode series. It's neither fair nor wise to make premature judgements about this stuff until the show wraps up, particularly when you consider that we're already getting new subtle changes and interactions out of some of the group. None of these "arcs" are completed yet.

[Makaioshin]

The Kraken just got bored and left. Truly the most incredible opponent they have come across.

The fights were fine but not amazing -- that Tamagami 3 fight really set the bar high visually. I agree with what others have been saying, there has been a lack of spark or any character dynamics between opponents in this show. Similar to GT or some of the movies, martial arts is a visual aesthetic rather than something that really drives these characters. At the very least the Tamagami 1 was used well enough to develop the Koo/Doo/Arinsu so something more may come of that later.

For now I am just glad the story has been moving. I look forward to seeing whatever Gomah/Degesu's play will be.

Vegeta Beast...well, I am neutral on this one.

[MisteryOne]

Just a superb episode. Great way to end the Daima year.

The elephant in the room is SS3 Vegeta, but after the leaks I have long made peace with it (and no before anyone says it the problem is not him archieving the form by training, that shouldn't be an issue after how Gotenks got it, the issue is that he never tried to use against Beerus in BoG on a blind rage moment) and it's just going to take months in this fandom before some headcanon is treated to fact to explain it. So honestly, not the big deal I thought it was, probably because they handled it in the best way they could given the circunstances.

I'm so happy Kuu and Duu got the Dragonball. I was so sure as I have already said that they would get stopped by the minigame trial. Very, very glad to be wrong. Now things can get really exciting and unexpected. Very curious to see how the events will unfold now. And it's interesting Kuu got the weird inteligence shown in Super Buu. I kind of hope he survives the series.

Speaking of minigames, while it's a bit lame the fight with Tamagami 2 ended up just like 3's did- saiyan transforms and completely ovewhelms them with a beam that gets pushed away in the end only to be punched hard- the minigame was fucking hilarious. Mainly because I was genuinely doing it on the fly so I was annoyed Vegeta seemed unable to, but in the end the twist was so fucking stupid I couldn't help but laugh. Professor Layton moment.

The fighting was very enjoyable, Duu finally showed what I would want from a Buu clone and the Tamagami had nice looking power ups (yes, just an effect on them, but this is the same franchise that made the atrocious Super anime auras). Interesting that they don't seem to be made out of flesh despite their looks, given how Vegeta punched 2

Really, was there not to like? I guess the kraken thing was completely pointless and they just wanted fake drama to end the previous episode, but I can't hold it against this one. My only complain is that it seems the exploration part was completely killed, understandably so since the cast is now huge. But it seems a lot more interesting to see how they will meet with Arinsu and the potential fight. Will Kuu and Duu fuse by absoprtion and overwhelm them? Will the saiyans fuse as well to fight back? So many possibilities! I don't want this series to end so soon...

Like genuinely, I was in a very sad mood again and this cheers me up. Could the great pacing actually transform which I was sure would be my most hated version of DB into my favourite? Or am I getting old and my interets are just not like the fandom-then again as a Super manga defender I guess I was like that all the time.

[TheMikado]

Well I'll be damned, gotta say Daima has been pretty unapologetic with the retcons.

I don't mind Vegeta going SSj3 from an in-universe perspective. There was never any reason he shouldn't be able to, Kakarot is not that much more special than him after all. I disagree with anyone who thinks otherwise. But damn does this create a continuity mess. I mean, it IS implied by the Future Trunks arc in Super that Vegeta could do SSj3 if he really wanted to, he just laughs off the idea because he's got way better stuff at his disposal at that point. Anyhow, we might see SSj3 Vegeta drawn by Toyotaro in the near future, from the looks of it. They've taken a lot of time before to display some transformations which the characters had been implicitly capable of, such as giving Vegeta SSj God in animation only as late as "Broly". But yeah, this episode was tons of fun! The fights were great, and Kuu & Duu are turning out to be really complex characters in their own right, rather than just mindless mooks with no personality, really glad care has been put into making them look interesting like this.

Apart from this, having watched Daima since the beginning, I can say that it definitely does the low stakes stuff much better than GT did. GT continually tried to get us to suspend disbelief for absolutely non-threatening situations being serious obstacles for Goku. The whole search for the DBs arc was one big marathon of that. In Daima on the other hand, encounters with mooks are just that and the show doesn't lead you to think otherwise even for a moment, while the stronger enemies who provide a challenge are properly introduced and have appropriate esteem in the world - something once again failed at in GT. Not to mention Daima has a way, way stronger Toriyama spirit in the character designs, dialogue and humor.

Honestly I’d ignore this completely if they didn’t keep slapping these series in the middle of the timeline. None of this is my cup of tea, and I think at this point I don’t like any of Toriyama’s modern contributions.

Also Vegeta is my favorite character but all I see is this now:

[kemuri07]

I actually think SS3 make this fight stand out from the others, because I felt Daima needed to deliver a greater challenge than Tamagami #3 at this point to provide a sense of escalation.

There's also just more going on visually in this fight. You've got the kraken being an environmental hazard, the battle shifting constantly between the sky and underwater, Vegeta parting the sea like he's Moses or some shit, etcetera. Lots of scenic hooks to latch on to so it doesn't feel repetitive. Tamagami #3 had better animation and choreography, but I can't remember as much of that fight in comparison outside of the Super Saiyan 2 Kamehameha.

Regarding character arcs, though, Daima is a 20 episode series. It's neither fair nor wise to make premature judgements about this stuff until the show wraps up, particularly when you consider that we're already getting new subtle changes and interactions out of some of the group. None of these "arcs" are completed yet.

Right. Original DB and Super had over a 100 episodes each and more than enough time to do things that people want Daima to do. Despite that, I think there has been fun characterizations across the board, and I don't think it needs to be any deeper than what we're given. It's just fun shenanigans; shit's not that deep.

And I think Zombie is correct: This is a saturday morning cartoon, and I'm more than okay with that. I have plenty of media that gives me what I want if I want more. But I think Daima being nothing more than a pleasant saturday morning cartoon where the "Super Saiyans go brrrrrrrr" also fits right in with my media consumption. It's just nice to have a Dragon Ball show that doesn't actively annoy me.

[hembro]

forgive me, I've seen and watched Super exactly one time each, when the anime ended and then the manga after Super-Hero came out, so it exists in my brain as broad strokes and not really specific details, but when in the Trunks arc is it hinted at Vegeta could and didn't use SSJ3? is it just a throwaway line somewhere?

I don't really mind that it's sort of a retroactive thing Vegeta had and doesn't use SSJ3, for one because until an arc in Super or it's successor directly follows up any of this (if it does) Daima exists just as a separate thing in my mind, and because I think it's easy to handwave as it's too much of a stamina drain or something and so he focused on training up SSJ2 and disregarded 3, and then ended up with more powerful new forms eventually anyways so felt no need to go back and work on that one.

that said, in the episode it was cool. I liked how in control and just dismissive he was to his opponent with it. although it following him saying he's not used to a child body was kind of funny, because god damn just how powerful is this guy in his natural body with that? I don't really care we haven't seen Goku using it in his child form, because it never once has read to me like he might need it at all in any conflict he's been in so far, whereas Neva powering the guardian up might have actually made it a requirement for Vegeta to go all out to defeat them.

I love the Super Majin Bros. they rule. I don't really have much to say about them besides the fight was neat and them as characters are the kind of goofball Toryiama that I like. it helps that the stakes, while sort of high in this series, don't feel too high to the point that their shenanigans seem out of place.

my favorite part in the episode was when Son Goku tried to offer Vegeta the bug and he told him he didn't eat things like that, and Goku reminded him he used to eat critters. I guess that's probably a reference to his first appearance where he was just casually sitting around eating some alien's arm while Nappa watched. Of course, Goku wasn't present but it's funny to imagine at some point in their adventures over the years Goku has just caught Vegeta eating some really disgusting shit and even him be asking what the hell are you doing?

so far Daima is interesting to me, because I like it probably more than anything else in the revival period of the last decade and a half, but I think it still suffers from a lot of the same problems that I have with all of that material and with GT for that matter. I think what helps Daima's case for me, is it feels more Toriyama in places over a lot of that stuff, and the fact it's short and already over the halfway point keeps me from getting too bothered by it. I still think the pacing isn't altogether that good so far as a whole though.

[Grimlock]

but when in the Trunks arc is it hinted at Vegeta could and didn't use SSJ3? is it just a throwaway line somewhere?

There's no hint. It's just that Trunks asks Vegeta to fight him using Super Saiyan 3 because Goku had shown to him earlier, so Trunks merely assumes Vegeta can also do it. That didn't confirm nor disconfirm whether Vegeta could or couldn't use Super Saiyan 3 at that point.

[Extreme_kai]

I'm not happy with ssj3 Vegeta. I always liked the fact that it was a form exclusive to Goku and Gotenks. I don't feel that every Saiyan needs every Super Saiyan transformation; it just takes away from the character's uniqueness. I hated that Vegeta had access to the Super Saiyan God in Broly. I even hated that the DBS manga had him learn instantaneous movement.

[TheMikado]

I actually think SS3 make this fight stand out from the others, because I felt Daima needed to deliver a greater challenge than Tamagami #3 at this point to provide a sense of escalation.

There's also just more going on visually in this fight. You've got the kraken being an environmental hazard, the battle shifting constantly between the sky and underwater, Vegeta parting the sea like he's Moses or some shit, etcetera. Lots of scenic hooks to latch on to so it doesn't feel repetitive. Tamagami #3 had better animation and choreography, but I can't remember as much of that fight in comparison outside of the Super Saiyan 2 Kamehameha.

Regarding character arcs, though, Daima is a 20 episode series. It's neither fair nor wise to make premature judgements about this stuff until the show wraps up, particularly when you consider that we're already getting new subtle changes and interactions out of some of the group. None of these "arcs" are completed yet.

Right. Original DB and Super had over a 100 episodes each and more than enough time to do things that people want Daima to do. Despite that, I think there has been fun characterizations across the board, and I don't think it needs to be any deeper than what we're given. It's just fun shenanigans; shit's not that deep.

And I think Zombie is correct: This is a saturday morning cartoon, and I'm more than okay with that. I have plenty of media that gives me what I want if I want more. But I think Daima being nothing more than a pleasant saturday morning cartoon where the "Super Saiyans go brrrrrrrr" also fits right in with my media consumption. It's just nice to have a Dragon Ball show that doesn't actively annoy me.

I had been searching for the right way to describe this series and Saturday Morning Cartoon hits the nail on the head! I’m looking for some of that Shonen melodrama and theatrics and I haven’t been getting it from DB lately and it’s driving me crazy. Thanks for finally helping identify why I’ve been struggling with this franchise so much lately.