Super Saiyajin level 1

[goodguy777]

Where did it say that the Super Saiyajin level 1 multiplies a saiyan's power by 50?

[Rocketman]

It doesn't.

But, the only power level ever given for a Super Saiyan is the 150,000,000 in the Daizenshuu (with base Goku as 3,000,000), so everybody just ran with it.

[Herms]

It's from Daizenshuu 7. Daizenshuu 7's battle power chart gives Goku's battle power for right before becoming a Super Saiyan as 3 million, and 150 million as a Super Saiyan, noting that his power is 50 times his normal state. Backing this up, Daizenshuu 7's Special Attack Dictionary's entry for the Super Saiyan transformation says that battle power 50 times that of their normal state is proof of a Super Saiyan.

Anyway, the increase being around 50 is supported by the manga. Goku's Kaio-Ken x20 (which increased his battle power by 20, of course) wasn't effective against 50% of Freeza's power. Since Goku as a Super Saiyan fought more than evenly with 100% full power Freeza, his power as a Super Saiyan must be more than twice x20, so more than x40. x50 is a good estimate.

[Kaboom]

Long story short, it runs from the general idea that, based on how Goku and Freeza's battle played out, it has to grant more strength than the Kaio-Ken x 20 did. A LOT more.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Actually, I believe the multiplier for Goku's first transformation into SSJ is far above 50x his base. After Goku used his Kaioken x20, he was stated to be weakening constantly, and Freeza's thrashing wasn't doing him any good, either. Once he attacked Freeza with the Spirit Bomb, he could barely move, and needed Gohan & Krillin to hold him up.

I could see Goku's base being around 200,000 or weaker at that point. However; it makes more sense on how they give the estimate of SSJ from his base at 3 million, because it just gives you a more clear understanding of why the SSJ multiplier should be greater then Kaioken x20 or more. I just wanted to talk about the other factors regarding Goku's base power level before transforming.

[Xyex]

Actually, I believe the multiplier for Goku's first transformation into SSJ is far above 50x his base. After Goku used his Kaioken x20, he was stated to be weakening constantly, and Freeza's thrashing wasn't doing him any good, either. Once he attacked Freeza with the Spirit Bomb, he could barely move, and needed Gohan & Krillin to hold him up.

I could see Goku's base being around 200,000 or weaker at that point. However; it makes more sense on how they give the estimate of SSJ from his base at 3 million, because it just gives you a more clear understanding of why the SSJ multiplier should be greater then Kaioken x20 or more. I just wanted to talk about the other factors regarding Goku's base power level before transforming.

I've always just been of the opinion that unlocking the form restores a person's health. All of Goku's fatigue seemingly vanished when he transformed. He went from barely able to stand on his own back to perfect condition, instantly.

[djkalteraphine]

Actually, I believe the multiplier for Goku's first transformation into SSJ is far above 50x his base. After Goku used his Kaioken x20, he was stated to be weakening constantly, and Freeza's thrashing wasn't doing him any good, either. Once he attacked Freeza with the Spirit Bomb, he could barely move, and needed Gohan & Krillin to hold him up.

I could see Goku's base being around 200,000 or weaker at that point. However; it makes more sense on how they give the estimate of SSJ from his base at 3 million, because it just gives you a more clear understanding of why the SSJ multiplier should be greater then Kaioken x20 or more. I just wanted to talk about the other factors regarding Goku's base power level before transforming.

I've always just been of the opinion that unlocking the form restores a person's health. All of Goku's fatigue seemingly vanished when he transformed. He went from barely able to stand on his own back to perfect condition, instantly.

It could also be part of the adrenaline and rage he felt from Kuririn's death that was causing him to no longer feel worn or fatigued. Power up aside, folks will do extraordinary things if their best friends are blown up by galactic space tyrants.

[The Madness]

I knew someone on MFG who was trying to prove that the SSJ multiplier was and always had been 3x. He said that the beating he took caused a Zenkai when the transformation healed him. His only defense against the matter of the Kaioken was "Goku forgot it" =/

The multiplier is something up for debate and usually has been, quite often in fact. I've entertained the possibilty of their being no multiplier, and have advocated an additive SSJ bonus before. The matter is totally up to you as the reader. Unless you're gonna make a power level list (God help you) it doesn't really matter.

[Akira]

Well, a battle power list beyond that point in the series is stupid anyway because it would all be based on opinion. It could be reasonable argued that a fifty times multiplier made sense if the series ended right there. However, it doesn't.

If that was true, there would be no need for Super Saiyan 2, as they could just increase base power, and the multiplier would always make them insanely powerful. It only stands that the Super Saiyan forms are an addition to, not a multiplier of power, hence the need for more powerful additions (further forms) later for advanced power.

So, once the base started catching up to the power addition, it would become less and less effective, and eventually pointless without further transformations. This is the only thing that makes sense based on how the series plays out.

Goku doesn't even need to become a Super Saiyan at the end of the series anymore because his base is so powerful that the additions become unecessary. Not unlike Gohan being at full power when he fought Majin Buu, with Super Saiyan being unecessary anymore.

[Kroni_Hunter]

Most of the times that goku beats up tough enemies in his base form are filler (Cell and frieza in Hell, Pikon, Coola) i remember when they go to the world tournament in buu saga they agree not to transform, obviously believing that they still had a chance against piccolo and 18. I dont remember if gohan fought dabura in his base or not. but i disagree that the super saiyan upgrade would stop mattering. Every episode/movie clearly shows that SSJ still increases their power, but usually not by as much as in the frieza saga

[SSj_Rambo]

Most of the times that goku beats up tough enemies in his base form are filler (Cell and Freeza in Hell, Pikon, Coola) i remember when they go to the world tournament in buu saga they agree not to transform, obviously believing that they still had a chance against piccolo and 18. I dont remember if gohan fought dabura in his base or not. but i disagree that the super saiyan upgrade would stop mattering. Every episode/movie clearly shows that SSJ still increases their power, but usually not by as much as in the Freeza saga

No one is denying that going power up to a level of Super Saiya-jin does not include an increase in power, the only case for that is "Mystic" Gohan.

And Gohan fought Dabra in Super Saiya-jin 2 form.

[Kid Trunks]

Every episode/movie clearly shows that SSJ still increases their power, but usually not by as much as in the Freeza saga

But if that were the case, then they'd never get any stronger. If every time they increased their base form, and their SSJ multiplier decreased, their full strength would never increase, and they'd never make any progress.

And Gohan fought Dabra in Super Saiya-jin 2 form.

Thats up for debate.

[SSj_Rambo]

Every episode/movie clearly shows that SSJ still increases their power, but usually not by as much as in the Freeza saga

But if that were the case, then they'd never get any stronger. If every time they increased their base form, and their SSJ multiplier decreased, their full strength would never increase, and they'd never make any progress.

I think what he meant (which is also what I believe) is that once you achieve SSj, you're base power level automatically goes up. So yes your power level at SSj could get higher or stay about the same, but you nase would go up so that the jump wouldn't be as great. I'll gladly explain this further if you don't get it.

[Kid Trunks]

Every episode/movie clearly shows that SSJ still increases their power, but usually not by as much as in the Freeza saga

But if that were the case, then they'd never get any stronger. If every time they increased their base form, and their SSJ multiplier decreased, their full strength would never increase, and they'd never make any progress.

I think what he meant (which is also what I believe) is that once you achieve SSj, you're base power level automatically goes up. So yes your power level at SSj could get higher or stay about the same, but you nase would go up so that the jump wouldn't be as great. I'll gladly explain this further if you don't get it.

But doesn't that suggest that from the moment you become a SSJ, you've reached your max? But that doesn't seem to be the case in the series.

[SSj_Rambo]

But doesn't that suggest that from the moment you become a SSJ, you've reached your max? But that doesn't seem to be the case in the series.

I see it as once you unlock all of that extra power through going Super Saiya-jin, some of the power stays in you even when you power down to normal, causing your base power level to increase.

Or you could look at it as going Super Saiya-jin is such major physical change and it is so mentally/emotionally painful that it causes some sort of Zenkai.

[djkalteraphine]

And Gohan fought Dabra in Super Saiya-jin 2 form.

Thats up for debate.

Yeah, watch the episode with their fight in it again, and you'll see Gohan never has electricity around his aura. Electricity = SSj2.

[Xyex]

Somewhat old, I know, but I feel I should respond to these points.

Well, a battle power list beyond that point in the series is stupid anyway because it would all be based on opinion. It could be reasonable argued that a fifty times multiplier made sense if the series ended right there. However, it doesn't.

If that was true, there would be no need for Super Saiyan 2, as they could just increase base power, and the multiplier would always make them insanely powerful. It only stands that the Super Saiyan forms are an addition to, not a multiplier of power, hence the need for more powerful additions (further forms) later for advanced power.

Says who? I'm going to drag in some numbers, just for comparison's sake, but I wont be using standard powerlevels here, just to avoid those.

Let's say that Goku, on Namek, was 1 and SSJ was 50. Now let's say that Gohan at the Cell Games was, say, 5, and at SSJ was 250. Pefect Cell is at 300 so obviously, right at this moment, SSJ isn't enough to beat him. So Gohan gets SSJ2 which is, oh, 500. We then jump to the Buu saga. Goku comes back and is, oh, 12. SSJ of 600. Now SSJ could beat Cell, but SSJ2 was needed before simply because the base hadn't gone high enough yet for the SSJ boost alone to be enought at that point.

The other forms aren't needed because SSJ looses effectiveness. It's needed because, lo' and behold, the enemies are getting stronger. It's the exact same thing as what happened with Kaioken. Goku didn't need to use higher levels of Kaioken because it wasn't as effective anymore. He needed higher levels of Kaioken because the enemies were stronger.

So, once the base started catching up to the power addition, it would become less and less effective, and eventually pointless without further transformations. This is the only thing that makes sense based on how the series plays out.

That makes absolutely no sense given the way the series plays out. If SSJ lost any of its effectiveness it would have been ditched for Kaioken. If base Cell Games Goku is 4, SSJ Goku is 54, and Kaiokenx20 Goku is 80 he'd use Kaioken instead. Spurts of 32% higher power are better than getting your ass kicked.

The only thing that makes sense is the enemies just got that much stronger.

Goku doesn't even need to become a Super Saiyan at the end of the series anymore because his base is so powerful that the additions become unecessary. Not unlike Gohan being at full power when he fought Majin Buu, with Super Saiyan being unecessary anymore.

Uh.... what? First of all, Goku being even half as powerful as he was as an SSJ on Namek = not possible. Secondly, it's never even remotely hinted that his base is anywhere near as powerful as his SSJ levels.

As for Gohan, SSJ wasn't 'unecessary', it was gone. He no longer had it. All of that power had been transfered to his normal state.

[JulieYBM]

On the topic of Gohan v. Dabra, according to Sparking METEOR (ENG) Gohan--after transforming into a SSj2 against Kibito--never again uses SSj2 for reasons unexplained. That is, if we are to believe METEOR but you look at his next two fights and you wonder "What the heck wouldn't he use it?" espicially when he fired of his attack on Boo.

[Xyex]

On the topic of Gohan v. Dabra, according to Sparking METEOR (ENG) Gohan--after transforming into a SSj2 against Kibito--never again uses SSj2 for reasons unexplained. That is, if we are to believe METEOR but you look at his next two fights and you wonder "What the heck wouldn't he use it?" espicially when he fired of his attack on Boo.

Fear.

The one time he used SSJ2 in a combat situation he nearly got the planet blown up.

[Kid Trunks]

Fear.

The one time he used SSJ2 in a combat situation he nearly got the planet blown up.

Someone should have told him that at that point he was as weak as piss.