Do you think GT Goku and Vegeta are stronger than their Super counterparts?

[Shintoki]

Something that just hit me: Super Vegetto and SSJ4 Goku being equals is utter nonsense.

Golden Oozaru is obviously 10x SSJ3. GO Goku was comparable to Baby, and GO Baby was comparable to SSJ4 Goku. Therefore, SSJ4 is about 100x SSJ3.

This also means Super Vegetto is 100x stronger than GT SSJ3 Goku. Base Vegetto is, at best, slightly stronger than Boohan.

Even if we pretend Goku compared Rildo to Mr Boo (why?) instead of Kid Boo or Boohan, GT SSJ3 Goku ends up comparable to SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan by this logic.

So yeah, SSJ4 Goku destroys Super Vegetto.

because that's the version of boo that's still around and others are familiar with to understand the reference point of strength. they wouldn't know wth he's talking about if he were talking about boohan for example. goku already surpassed ultimate gohan and gotenks by wrath of the dragon so why wouldn't he have surpassed them in GT? i don't really get ur logic, let alone fan estimations

[Yuji]

Something that just hit me: Super Vegetto and SSJ4 Goku being equals is utter nonsense.

Golden Oozaru is obviously 10x SSJ3. GO Goku was comparable to Baby, and GO Baby was comparable to SSJ4 Goku. Therefore, SSJ4 is about 100x SSJ3.

This also means Super Vegetto is 100x stronger than GT SSJ3 Goku. Base Vegetto is, at best, slightly stronger than Boohan.

Even if we pretend Goku compared Rildo to Mr Boo (why?) instead of Kid Boo or Boohan, GT SSJ3 Goku ends up comparable to SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan by this logic.

So yeah, SSJ4 Goku destroys Super Vegetto.

Not sure your scaling is accurate.

FPSS4 Goku > GO Baby >/= SS4 Goku >> Baby Vegeta >/= GO Goku

At this point we're in agreement. I'm not sure how you get that GO is 10x SS3 rather than 50x Oozaru which is what makes more sense. Vegeta doesn't have SS3 so would his GO be 10x SS2? By assuming it's 10xSS3, you imply the form is a progression of SS3, so Vegeta would necessarily have to possess SS3, which is never shown.

If GO is 50x Oozaru, or x500 base, that's much less. Then SS4 itself can be either x10 GO or x10 SS3, at x5000 or x4000 base.

So assuming base Goku = Mr. Boo, depending on how strong you think Gotenks and then base Vegetto are in comparison, you can definitely have Super Vegetto at SS4's level. Especially once you add to it Goku's statement that he hasn't fought someone as strong as Baby Vegeta "in a long time" and only AFTER he transforms does he say it's the strongest Ki he's felt (implying base BV is somewhere below Boohan still).

I don't really think GT works through multipliers though, until you get to SS4. Everyone is set at a "tier" and that's it. Doesn't Rildo say Goku was hiding "over half his strength" once he turns Super Saiyan? That fits if taken literally, but the wording doesn't imply a huge x50 boost.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Something that just hit me: Super Vegetto and SSJ4 Goku being equals is utter nonsense.

Golden Oozaru is obviously 10x SSJ3. GO Goku was comparable to Baby, and GO Baby was comparable to SSJ4 Goku. Therefore, SSJ4 is about 100x SSJ3.

This also means Super Vegetto is 100x stronger than GT SSJ3 Goku. Base Vegetto is, at best, slightly stronger than Boohan.

Even if we pretend Goku compared Rildo to Mr Boo (why?) instead of Kid Boo or Boohan, GT SSJ3 Goku ends up comparable to SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan by this logic.

So yeah, SSJ4 Goku destroys Super Vegetto.

because that's the version of boo that's still around and others are familiar with to understand the reference point of strength. they wouldn't know wth he's talking about if he were talking about boohan for example. goku already surpassed ultimate gohan and gotenks by wrath of the dragon so why wouldn't he have surpassed them in GT? i don't really get ur logic, let alone fan estimations

Kaioshin isn't familiar with Cell but Goku compares him to Dabra anyway. I don't think he's particularly concerned about whether the others get it, especially because he's mostly talking to himself anyway.

Wrath of the Dragon isn't canon, but yes Goku is the strongest by this point. The thing is, keeping Super Vegetto at the top of the food chain is unrealistic.

Not sure your scaling is accurate.

FPSS4 Goku > GO Baby >/= SS4 Goku >> Baby Vegeta >/= GO Goku

At this point we're in agreement. I'm not sure how you get that GO is 10x SS3 rather than 50x Oozaru which is what makes more sense. Vegeta doesn't have SS3 so would his GO be 10x SS2? By assuming it's 10xSS3, you imply the form is a progression of SS3, so Vegeta would necessarily have to possess SS3, which is never shown.

If GO is 50x Oozaru, or x500 base, that's much less. Then SS4 itself can be either x10 GO or x10 SS3, at x5000 or x4000 base.

So assuming base Goku = Mr. Boo, depending on how strong you think Gotenks and then base Vegetto are in comparison, you can definitely have Super Vegetto at SS4's level. Especially once you add to it Goku's statement that he hasn't fought someone as strong as Baby Vegeta "in a long time" and only AFTER he transforms does he say it's the strongest Ki he's felt (implying base BV is somewhere below Boohan still).

I don't really think GT works through multipliers though, until you get to SS4. Everyone is set at a "tier" and that's it. Doesn't Rildo say Goku was hiding "over half his strength" once he turns Super Saiyan? That fits if taken literally, but the wording doesn't imply a huge x50 boost.

I remember reading somewhere that SSJ3 Golden Oozaru in Heroes keeps the long hair, so maybe you're up to something. 500x base is hardly any different than SSJ3 Goku though, which is not what the show presents. Yeah, Golden Oozaru Vegeta should be 10x SSJ2. I don't see the problem with that.

I've been thinking about Rild's line. SSJ is hardly ever treated as a proper 50x boost, not just in GT but throughout the series. I don't know if those should be treated as inconsistencies or accepted, because every source out there goes out of it's way to say it's 50x. "Not even half" often means "more than 1/3" indeed, but if I call 2% less than half does it mean it's actually 40% now? Dunno.

[Koitsukai]

It seems GT uses its own multipliers for SS. If we were to use the 50x for SS, then HM Rildo should be 50x stronger than Buu, and that's Vegito territory, while having another form left. This would make Goku's latter commentary about Baby's strenght sorta moot. He should be comparing V-Baby to Rildo directly but he claims it's been a long time since yada-yada-yada.
So, not even Metal Rildo is on the level of Buuhan, because he just fought him a few month ago... but Rildo should be if his base form was Buu level (doesn't matter which one) and Goku had to use 50x more power than that to keep up with his two other forms.

I don't know, maybe it's because Goku became a kid and was handicapped in a few areas, like shunkanido and SS3. Perhaps his SS multiplier wasn't as great as it should've been because of this? Meaning Rildo barely doubled his power and so did Goku.

[Yuji]

It seems GT uses its own multipliers for SS. If we were to use the 50x for SS, then HM Rildo should be 50x stronger than Buu, and that's Vegito territory, while having another form left. This would make Goku's latter commentary about Baby's strenght sorta moot. He should be comparing V-Baby to Rildo directly but he claims it's been a long time since yada-yada-yada.
So, not even Metal Rildo is on the level of Buuhan, because he just fought him a few month ago... but Rildo should be if his base form was Buu level (doesn't matter which one) and Goku had to use 50x more power than that to keep up with his two other forms.

I don't know, maybe it's because Goku became a kid and was handicapped in a few areas, like shunkanido and SS3. Perhaps his SS multiplier wasn't as great as it should've been because of this? Meaning Rildo barely doubled his power and so did Goku.

I just like to think Saiyans manage to use a percentage of their SS power in base. Like they can multiply their base by x20 or x25 by accessing a bit of the S-Cells without transforming physically. Even if that's not directly supported, it helps if SS is just a 2x multiplier, or slightly over, to better make sense of all the Toei Super Strong Base scenes. Kinda retroactively explains why Kaioken was never used again, too, and how base fusions are so strong.

[Shintoki]

Something that just hit me: Super Vegetto and SSJ4 Goku being equals is utter nonsense.

Golden Oozaru is obviously 10x SSJ3. GO Goku was comparable to Baby, and GO Baby was comparable to SSJ4 Goku. Therefore, SSJ4 is about 100x SSJ3.

This also means Super Vegetto is 100x stronger than GT SSJ3 Goku. Base Vegetto is, at best, slightly stronger than Boohan.

Even if we pretend Goku compared Rildo to Mr Boo (why?) instead of Kid Boo or Boohan, GT SSJ3 Goku ends up comparable to SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan by this logic.

So yeah, SSJ4 Goku destroys Super Vegetto.

because that's the version of boo that's still around and others are familiar with to understand the reference point of strength. they wouldn't know wth he's talking about if he were talking about boohan for example. goku already surpassed ultimate gohan and gotenks by wrath of the dragon so why wouldn't he have surpassed them in GT? i don't really get ur logic, let alone fan estimations

Kaioshin isn't familiar with Cell but Goku compares him to Dabra anyway. I don't think he's particularly concerned about whether the others get it, especially because he's mostly talking to himself anyway.

Wrath of the Dragon isn't canon, but yes Goku is the strongest by this point. The thing is, keeping Super Vegetto at the top of the food chain is unrealistic.

ah? king kai is a cosmic observer so why wouldn't he be familliar with the events regarding cell and earth? goku teleported to his planet and he seemed familiar with cell and wasn't asking ''who is he'' / ''who is cell'' or anything like that

wrath of the dragon is canon to GT, no?

fusions are busted so i disagree with that notion

[Hugo Boss]

I think Golden Oozaru Goku was far above Baby Vegeta. Baby was clearly afraid of him, and Goku’s raw strength while rampaging felt overwhelming, even before gaining full control as SS4.

Regarding Super Vegetto, we don’t know the exact multiplier for his Super Saiyan transformation, but his dominance over Boohan in his normal form already put him at an high tier.

As for GT Goku’s base comparison to Rildo, it makes more sense Goku was thinking of Kid Buu. SS3 GT Goku being much stronger than Ultimate Gohan aligns better with his feats, especially considering Baby rivaled or surpassed Super Vegetto with Vegeta’s possession and amassed power.

Golden Oozaru and SS4 introduced an entirely new power ceiling.

In summary…

Spoiler:

• Top Tier: SS4 Goku, Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta, Golden Oozaru Goku
• High Tier: SS Vegetto, Baby Vegeta, SS3 GT Goku
• Mid Tier: Ultimate Gohan, Metal Rildo, SS GT Goku
• Low Tier: Base GT Goku, Base Rildo, Kid Buu

[Yuji]

The way I see it:

Tier 0
SS4 Gogeta

Tier 1
Super Yi Shin Long
FPSS4 Goku/Vegeta

Tier 2
Yi Shin Long
GO Baby
SS4 Goku/Vegeta/SS Vegetto (Z)
Super 17

Tier 3
Baby Vegeta 2
Majoob
SS3 Goku (tail)
Baby Vegeta 1

Tier 4
Base Vegetto
Boohan
Baby Vegeta
SS3 Goku (no tail, stamina depletes rapidly)
Bootenks
SS2 Goku/Ultimate Gohan
SS3 Gotenks
Super Boo
SS Goku/Rildo 3

Tier 5
Rildo 2
Kid Boo
SS3 Goku (Z)
Base Goku
SS Gotenks
Rildo
Mr. Boo

I can definitely see the arguments for less conservative scaling but I think GT's power scaling, while vague, gives enough indications that, at least through the Baby arc, it's still keeping with the Boo arc tiers.

I don’t keep multipliers in mind but it's definitely still possible to have this sort of tier list even with them in mind. If you believe the theory that Baby Vegeta is Vegeta in Super Saiyan, then Baby Vegeta 1 is SS2 (so 2x stronger) and Baby Vegeta 2 is SS3 (and therefore 4x stronger than that).

[sunsetshimmer]

If you believe the theory that Baby Vegeta is Vegeta in Super Saiyan, then Baby Vegeta 1 is SS2 (so 2x stronger) and Baby Vegeta 2 is SS3 (and therefore 4x stronger than that).

It's not theory. It's a fact. He is using mutated white haired SSJ. That's how GT Perfect Files describe it as well.

Theory is Super Baby 1 using SSJ2 and Super Baby 2 using SSJ3. And that's completely wrong imo. If these were SSJ2/SSJ3 he wouldn't look different except hair and would transform on his own, without gathering energy from others.

The way i see it and what makes the most sense is SB1 and SB2 being Baby's own evolutions that take over Vegeta's body even further making him look even less like himself and more like Baby with each evolution.

SS4 Goku/Vegeta/SS Vegetto (Z)

That wouldn't make much sense to me. SS Vegetto (Z) would be far outclassed at this point considering Super Baby 1 alone was said to have strongest ki Goku ever felt placing him at the very least above Buuhan and that's of course assuming his previous form or Rildo weren't already stronger than him. Cause he never said who had the strongest ki before that and well...he could just mean regular Baby Vegeta as well. Also since Goku&Vegeta can feel how strong they are (even after fusing) i would say SB1 > SS Vegetto (Z) also makes sense.

Also Majuub (called Super Uub in original) was literally Super Buu reincarnated but much stronger due to Uub being much more powerful than Kid Buu alone. And he still lost to Super Baby 2 although he did much better than Goku SSJ3, even before fusing with Buu. So i would personally put SS Vegetto (Z) in Majuub tier at best.

Super 17 saga also completely changed power scaling, making Majuub already outclassed by SSJ Goku and Vegeta and he still was able to literally one shot Rildo. Super 17 as well as Goku SS4 from that arc would already be in higher tier than GO Baby and early Goku SS4.

Now some fun irrelevant calculations:

If we used official multipliers and assume Goku and Vegeta were equal in GT (they were not) and we assume SSJ3 Goku was equal to SSJ Baby Vegeta (also not true) we could assume Baby Vegeta's base power was 8 times Goku's base power.

GO Baby at best was equal to SSJ4 Goku so we could assume SSJ4 was 8 times stronger than GO form to make them equal.

But...Goku is stronger than Vegeta. And SSJ3 Goku was weaker than SSJ Baby Vegeta. Also Baby evolved twice before going GO. And at their full powers SSJ4 Goku still demolished GO Baby.

If Super Baby 1 is stronger than Buuhan, then looking at how huge boost Goku got with SSJ4 i don't see Z Vegetto being anywhere on that level. But well, calculations like that hardly ever make sense for DB.

[Koitsukai]

I think Z Vegito is put to rest by the time Vegeta Baby achieves his final form. His previous form was said to be above every other villain before him, and I don't think Vegito needed to be 20x stronger than Buuhan, I reckon Vegito was between Baby's two final forms.
I don't buy the "he can feel his own ki" thing because who talks like that? there's a much simpler method of saying somebody surpassed you than "strongest ki ever felt!". Which is not to say Baby 1 can't beat Vegito, both are clearly said/shown to be stronger than Buuhan, the margin is uncertain.

However, Vegito is definitely below Baby by the time he beats Goku, the power jump from his 2nd form to the final one should do the trick, like I said before I don't think Vegito has to be that much stronger than Buuhan, and it's not supposed to be a small jump in power for Baby either, he is basically doing what Goku did vs Broly.

Maybe somebody can refresh my memory, but didn't Goku also say it's been a long time (meaning Z, GT started 11 months ago) since bla bla bla? If my memory serves me right, then there's a Z villain that was never matched by any other GT character until Baby came along. This would recontextualize the Rildo comment and Goku's SS multiplier, but like I said I'm not sure if my mind is playing games on me.

[Yuji]

I think Z Vegito is put to rest by the time Vegeta Baby achieves his final form. His previous form was said to be above every other villain before him, and I don't think Vegito needed to be 20x stronger than Buuhan, I reckon Vegito was between Baby's two final forms.
I don't buy the "he can feel his own ki" thing because who talks like that? there's a much simpler method of saying somebody surpassed you than "strongest ki ever felt!". Which is not to say Baby 1 can't beat Vegito, both are clearly said/shown to be stronger than Buuhan, the margin is uncertain.

However, Vegito is definitely below Baby by the time he beats Goku, the power jump from his 2nd form to the final one should do the trick, like I said before I don't think Vegito has to be that much stronger than Buuhan, and it's not supposed to be a small jump in power for Baby either, he is basically doing what Goku did vs Broly.

Maybe somebody can refresh my memory, but didn't Goku also say it's been a long time (meaning Z, GT started 11 months ago) since bla bla bla? If my memory serves me right, then there's a Z villain that was never matched by any other GT character until Baby came along. This would recontextualize the Rildo comment and Goku's SS multiplier, but like I said I'm not sure if my mind is playing games on me.

Goku said about base Baby Vegeta that he hasn't fought someone that strong in a long time. And then said about Baby Vegeta 1 it's the strongest Ki he's felt. This to me implies Baby Vegeta is somewhere around Boohan - whether stronger or weaker is kinda irrelevant (though I choose to believe he's weaker just because of the other statement about the strongest Ki). And then Baby Vegeta 1 is where he decisively distances himself from the Z villains as a tier above.

As for Vegetto, since GT follows the anime, base Vegetto was effectively toying with Boohan. If we assume he's at least equal to Boohan, which is a lowball for the anime version, and therefore at the same level as base Baby Vegeta, then SS Vegetto/SS4 Goku are 50x stronger than that tier. To me it all fits. There's plenty of room to fit all the other forms and GT characters. I think someone as "weak" as Baby Vegeta being on Boohan's level and someone as strong as SS4 Goku being on SS Vegetto's level can coexist, because Toei portrayed base Vegetto as being absolutely busted.


- SS4 Goku/SS Vegetto

- [50x gap] where Baby Vegeta 1/2, SS3 Goku (tail), Majoob, and others reside.

- Base Vegetto/Boohan/Baby Vegeta

You have to keep in mind that although in the manga we can assume there's not a huge difference between Super Vegetto and Boohan since he transformed right away, in the anime we saw with our own eyes base Vegetto beating the shit out of him and transform only to add further insult to injury. And that's the version that GT and its guidebooks are referencing with its "as strong as SS4" comments. I don't think you can even argue they're comparing the multipliers because Potara fusion was such a ridiculously stronger amp over SS3 Goku than SS4 was.

The comment was also trying to highlight Vegetto's power, not SS4 - it's in Vegetto's page/description. It's saying "look how strong Vegetto was that he's still comparable to Goku's strongest form 15 years later." When people claim it's comparing the multipliers, that makes SS4 look strong, not Vegetto.

[Hugo Boss]

Going by Goku’s statements about Baby Vegeta the power chain would be: Super Baby Vegeta > Super Vegetto > Baby Vegeta > Boohan. He implied Baby Vegeta’s strength was unparalleled among his opponents, later acknowledging Super Baby Vegeta as the strongest ever.

In the case of Rildo, the fight highlights smaller Super Saiyan multipliers, as Rildo’s power barely doubled after absorbing the Sigma Force and SS Goku wasn’t stronger than him by a lot. Similarly, Base Vegetto and SS Vegetto show minimal difference, suggesting SS may amplify strength only slightly in anime, perhaps tripling.

Finally, the anime comic described Merging with Vegeta: “After Goku and Vegeta merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become Super Vegetto! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!?”. This highlights the conceptual strength of Potara fusion relative to Saiyan transformations, not a strict power comparison. It emphasizes how both power-ups were groundbreaking in their respective eras.

[Yuji]

Going by Goku’s statements about Baby Vegeta the power chain would be: Super Baby Vegeta > Super Vegetto > Baby Vegeta > Boohan. He implied Baby Vegeta’s strength was unparalleled among his opponents, later acknowledging Super Baby Vegeta as the strongest ever.

I don't see why Goku would be referencing Vegetto. He firstly states about BV he hasn't fought someone that strong in a long time (Boohan), and after he transforms, says he's the strongest Ki he's felt. The context here is key, he's reminiscing about his past opponents. It's external comparison. He's not saying he's the strongest ever, just the strongest he's sensed. While theoretically he has sensed Vegetto, he sensed Vegetto as Vegetto, not as Goku, not to mention when have these comparisons ever been made in reference to one's self? It's a clunky interpretation to say the least.

Re: Rildo

I'm starting to doubt Rildo's base form is even stronger than any form of Boo. Goku acknowledges that Rildo is hiding his true strength, which we later find out is hidden in two other forms. And statements that compare someone's hidden power/potential instead of their suppressed base form aren't exactly rare in the series. It's entirely possible only Meta Rildo scales to Boo at all.

Finally, the anime comic described Merging with Vegeta: “After Goku and Vegeta merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become Super Vegetto! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!?”. This highlights the conceptual strength of Potara fusion relative to Saiyan transformations, not a strict power comparison. It emphasizes how both power-ups were groundbreaking in their respective eras.

Again, the phrasing here is meant to emphasize Vegetto's power. It's in Vegetto's page and description. It is not highlighting SS4, it is highlighting how strong Vegetto was that he's still comparable to Goku's strongest form 15 years later. It does not make a comment about Potara's multiplier, only about Vegetto's unique powerlevel. Again, it is a clunky interpretation to assume it's comparing power boosts or multipliers when the most obvious interpretation is right in front of everyone's eyes.

[Hugo Boss]

I don't see why Goku would be referencing Vegetto. He firstly states about BV he hasn't fought someone that strong in a long time (Boohan), and after he transforms, says he's the strongest Ki he's felt. The context here is key, he's reminiscing about his past opponents. It's external comparison. He's not saying he's the strongest ever, just the strongest he's sensed. While theoretically he has sensed Vegetto, he sensed Vegetto as Vegetto, not as Goku, not to mention when have these comparisons ever been made in reference to one's self? It's a clunky interpretation to say the least.

Goku’s remark about Baby Vegeta is contextually grounded in the fact that none of his recent GT foes forced him to go beyond Super Saiyan 3. This statement reflects Baby Vegeta’s power exceeding previous enemies’ challenges. Moreover, Goku’s Super Saiyan transformations in GT likely already place SS1 around Super Buu’s tier, SS2 near Buutenks, and SS3 above Buuhan, which makes plausible that Baby Vegeta is comparable with Super Vegetto instead.

Then Goku escalates his claim when acknowledging Super Baby Vegeta’s ki as the strongest he’s ever felt. This is consistent with Goku comparing his current foe to all his past experiences, especially since he has sensed SS Vegetto’s power during fusion.

I'm starting to doubt Rildo's base form is even stronger than any form of Boo. Goku acknowledges that Rildo is hiding his true strength, which we later find out is hidden in two other forms. And statements that compare someone's hidden power/potential instead of their suppressed base form aren't exactly rare in the series. It's entirely possible only Meta Rildo scales to Boo at all.

Even if Base Rildo doesn’t surpass Kid Buu, his subsequent forms exceed Goku’s expectations, with Metal Rildo potentially matching SS3 Gotenks or Ultimate Gohan.

Again, the phrasing here is meant to emphasize Vegetto's power. It's in Vegetto's page and description. It is not highlighting SS4, it is highlighting how strong Vegetto was that he's still comparable to Goku's strongest form 15 years later. It does not make a comment about Potara's multiplier, only about Vegetto's unique powerlevel. Again, it is a clunky interpretation to assume it's comparing power boosts or multipliers when the most obvious interpretation is right in front of everyone's eyes.

The statement about Vegetto “perhaps being stronger than SS4” is purposefully vague and hyperbolic, intended to emphasize Vegetto’s conceptual strength rather than make a strict comparison. As noted by Vegetto EX, it’s an innocent nod to his immense power, not a definitive claim.

[Yuji]

Moreover, Goku’s Super Saiyan transformations in GT likely already place SS1 around Super Buu’s tier, SS2 near Buutenks, and SS3 above Buuhan, which makes plausible that Baby Vegeta is comparable with Super Vegetto instead.

Base Vegetto in the anime which GT follows is already stronger than Boohan, let alone SS Vegetto. There's plenty of room in that gap to slot in all Baby Vegeta forms (especially since they seem to follow the SS multipliers, as Baby Vegeta is Vegeta in SS and SBV2 is likened to SS3. This means Baby Vegeta gets at most i
8x stronger from base to final form, which is a far cry from Vegetto's 50x boost).

[Hugo Boss]

It’s unlikely Base Vegetto is vastly stronger than Buuhan, given his transformation to Super Saiyan, which he deemed necessary for a decisive battle. It’s more likely Base Vegetto and Buuhan are in a similar tier. If GT follows the reduced SS multipliers implied in Z and vice-versa, the Super Saiyan boost could realistically be closer to 3x instead of 50x. This aligns with the notion that SS3 GT Goku and Baby Vegeta maybe aren’t quite at SS Vegetto’s level, but Super Baby Vegeta surpasses everyone, consistent with Goku’s statements in GT.

[Koitsukai]

I agree with Hugo that SS Vegito isn't that much stronger than Base Vegito.
Maybe in the manga, for Toriyama, Super Vegito was supposed to be another realm of power, but the anime dropped the ball with base Vegito already toying with Buuhan. It seemed like a slight boost over base to control the fight, but not the upperhand SS4 Gogeta had over Omega, Vegito still needed to dodge and exert himself here and there. Sure, he fought with no hands, as a candy, etc., but then Buuhan had a forcefield Vegito struggled with, and there was no tanking Buu's attacks at all. I mean, it's all amazing and vastly superior to Buuhan but what base Vegito was doing wasn't that far from it. Certainly not a 50x improvement.

And I agree with Yuji that "strongest ki ever felt including oneself" it's too convoluted, nobody talks like that if the intent was to say someone is stronger than you when fused with a friend years ago.
BoG proved there's an easier way to say that: "not even fusion would work", sure he can't fuse with Vegeta now but he can still reference the time they did fuse in a more straightforward way and not like Yoda impersonating a high-as-a kite Crissy Moltisanti. DBGT wasn't shy of providing out of the blue comparisons like the "stronger than Buu" quote.
But I also feel it's useless because soon enough Baby powered up to a point where there was no need for statements.

About Z Vegito still being relative to SS4 Goku, Vegito is made of two guys with a base around Freeza's power and as strong as Kid Buu, Goku in GT has a base that's on Kid Buu's level... he's too close to Buuhan and Vegito for the SS4 boost to not surpass them. Also, from an out-of-universe POV, knowing TOEI loves to wank Goku so much as shown in Z movies and in GT, it makes sense that his Toei-exclusive and final form is stronger than a fusion from 15 years ago.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The most popular scaling for GT I've seen is having Base Vegetto ~ Boohan (As per anime logic), Super Vegetto 50x better (I think saying he has GT's lower multipliers is an arbitrary choice), Rildo be comparable to Boohan and GT SSJ at 2.5x (Which I'm unsure about). I think this one appeases everyone, though I'm also leaning towards just having 50x and Vegetto being fodder.

Looking at Goku's line to Baby Vegeta, he says "It's been a long time since I fought someone strong, like you". You guys see the difference the comma makes right?

"Someone strong like you" = As strong as you, a comparison to someone else.
"Someone strong, like you" = Someone who's also strong, but not necessarily the same. More about the difficulty of the fight.

Whatever Boo was compared to Rild, that should be the ultimate benchmark. Goku is either talking about Baby > Rild os about being pushed to SSJ3.

ah? king kai is a cosmic observer so why wouldn't he be familliar with the events regarding cell and earth? goku teleported to his planet and he seemed familiar with cell and wasn't asking ''who is he'' / ''who is cell'' or anything like that

wrath of the dragon is canon to GT, no?

fusions are busted so i disagree with that notion

I said Kaioshin, as in Supreme Kai, Shin, Nahare. You know, the one guy to whom Goku made the comparison between Cell and Dabra. How did you even get King Kai here lol.

That's true, Goku uses dragon fist in GT. That's even more confirmation of Goku > Gohan and Gotenks.

But how busted? Vegetto had to go SSJ to humiliate Boohan in the way he did.

[Hugo Boss]

Looking at Goku's line to Baby Vegeta, he says "It's been a long time since I fought someone strong, like you". You guys see the difference the comma makes right?

"Someone strong like you" = As strong as you, a comparison to someone else.
"Someone strong, like you" = Someone who's also strong, but not necessarily the same. More about the difficulty of the fight.

Whatever Boo was compared to Rild, that should be the ultimate benchmark. Goku is either talking about Baby > Rild os about being pushed to SSJ3.

That’s a line Goku throws in a lot when he’s fighting seemingly strong enemies.

Spoiler:

Episode 16
Time: Roughly 19m
Context: After Goku witnesses the full power of the Mega Cannon Sigma members
Goku: “You guys are awesome, huh? It's been a long time since I met anybody as awesome as you!”

Episode 18
Time: Roughly 16m35s
Context: After knocking down the Super Mega Cannon Sigma
Goku: “The way you guys fought was pretty interesting. But the way I read things you guys ain't that strong, huh?”

And that was before Goku fought Rildo, whom he said was more powerful than Boo. These lines are probably not intended for very specific purposes, but rather to generically hype up the battle. Otherwise, the Sigma squad members could be about as powerful as Boo.

Same way with lines like “perhaps even stronger than SS4!?” that don’t necessarily add up.

Spoiler:

Episode 35
Time: 20m15s
Context: As Golden Ape Baby is going on a rampage
Narrator: "Having become Super Saiyan 4, Goku thought that victory was all his, but amazingly, Baby has also become a Great Ape!"
Goku: "He's got outrageous power!"
Narrator: "The Great Ape Baby rampages indiscriminately. Does his power exceed even that of Super Saiyan 4?"
Note: In the dub, Goku doesn't mention Baby's power, and the narrator says Baby's power continues to grow and that soon Goku might not be able to win.

Episode 38
Time: 18m45s
Context: Trunks and the others are recovering
Trunks: "T-this is a full-powered Super Saiyan 4?"
Gohan: "I-it's beyond incredible! His level is so much different than ours now, it would be hard to calculate just how much beyond incredible it is!"
Goku: "It's all because of you guys. Thanks. In return, I'll be sure to beat him, just watch!"
Note: In the dub, Goku tells the boys they each made sacrifices and now it's his turn.

[Shintoki]

The most popular scaling for GT I've seen is having Base Vegetto ~ Boohan (As per anime logic), Super Vegetto 50x better (I think saying he has GT's lower multipliers is an arbitrary choice), Rildo be comparable to Boohan and GT SSJ at 2.5x (Which I'm unsure about). I think this one appeases everyone, though I'm also leaning towards just having 50x and Vegetto being fodder.

Looking at Goku's line to Baby Vegeta, he says "It's been a long time since I fought someone strong, like you". You guys see the difference the comma makes right?

"Someone strong like you" = As strong as you, a comparison to someone else.
"Someone strong, like you" = Someone who's also strong, but not necessarily the same. More about the difficulty of the fight.

Whatever Boo was compared to Rild, that should be the ultimate benchmark. Goku is either talking about Baby > Rild os about being pushed to SSJ3.

ah? king kai is a cosmic observer so why wouldn't he be familliar with the events regarding cell and earth? goku teleported to his planet and he seemed familiar with cell and wasn't asking ''who is he'' / ''who is cell'' or anything like that

wrath of the dragon is canon to GT, no?

fusions are busted so i disagree with that notion

I said Kaioshin, as in Supreme Kai, Shin, Nahare. You know, the one guy to whom Goku made the comparison between Cell and Dabra. How did you even get King Kai here lol.

That's true, Goku uses dragon fist in GT. That's even more confirmation of Goku > Gohan and Gotenks.

But how busted? Vegetto had to go SSJ to humiliate Boohan in the way he did.

oh boi, where do i even begin?

the comma stuff just a subtitle thing, yoe were reading way into it

goku in japanese said:
「お前みたいな強え奴は久しぶりだ！」
(Omae mitai na tsuyē yatsu wa hisashiburi da!)

which gets translated as "It's been a long time since I faced someone as strong as you!" that basically means baby vegeta > hirudegarn | janemba | kid buu since these are the ones he would have fought in the Toei's continuity

about the ''never felt ki like this'' part, people often bring up the "felt ki" line but forget that Goku had already used a similar phrasing before and excluded himself from that context. this was in the fusion reborn movie


This makes it nearly zero chance that he would include himself in a line of identical fashion (GT), especially, and let alone, when referencing a fusion involving himself. Arguing that Goku in GT for whatever reason applied a different mentality to that line would be just unsubstantiated, as there’s no evidence of substance to suggest a distinction between the two scenarios where goke use this type of statements to


about kid GT goku being debated on in relation to ultimate gohan and gotenks, Goku being above Gotenks and Gohan should be beyond doubt or question in this discourse if we do consider the movies as canon to GT. Goku had reached a power level above both Gohan and Gotenks, at least through Dragon Fist as a hax attack, even before GT came into existence. The focus of the conversation shouldn’t derail into whether GT Goku is stronger than Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks. While being turned into a child was somewhat of a handicap, it doesn’t seem significant overall or, at the very least, shouldn’t have been severe enough to warrant debating his superiority to Ultimate Gohan.

about Goku' power level in relation to baby, while his child form was still vastly powerful, it was still handicapped and got in the way was when he tried to use Super Saiyan 3 in full extent. Goku himself explained this when this happened
「体が小さいせいで、超サイヤ人3のパワーを持たねえんだ。」
(Karada ga chiisai sei de, Sūpā Saiya-jin Surī no pawā o motanēn da.) which translate to ''Because my body is small, I can’t hold the power of Super Saiyan 3''

Before achieving Super Baby 1 (SB1), Baby Vegeta was already an even match for Goku and more even with Goku using Super Saiyan 3, as noted by Goku himself. he wasn't cornered by goku when fighting him and neither did he corner goku tho it's evidently clear that he didn't feel threatened by SSJ3 goku. once Baby reached the SB1 level, Goku commented that he had never felt a ki like this before. This suggests that SB1's power was beyond anything Goku had ever encountered or could compare to, meaning Baby Vegeta’s base form was still below this unprecedented threshold.so goku in SS3 couldn't have been above buuhan as neither were baby vegeta.

This is the source of heat and contention for a lot of people, as far as I know, because for many, it doesn’t make sense. After all the time-skip training, how could Goku not be significantly stronger than he was during the events of Movie 13? He would only need to be a couple of times more powerful than he was in that movie to surpass Buuhan. The takeaway, for many, is that Goku’s training only made him less than double the power he was in Movie 13 and to add oil to the fire, lots of people even argue that hirudegarn is stronger than buuhan because gotenks and super boo are around the same level and gotenks said that gohan wasn't too much stronger than him so interpret that as you might

so either movie 13 didn't occur in the GT verse due to being irreconcilable with its power level showings or there is some

In either case, it’s clear that using Movie 13 for GT is a can of worms, because that’s where a lot of people end up falling into this inescapable rabbit hole. The reason they slip into that rabbit hole is likely because they assume that the GT writers made Goku the same version as the one from the movies, without realizing that Koyama was in charge of the movie’s affairs, not the GT staff. This misregistration leads people to treat the two as one and the same. This is a core error in logic because the more logical scenario is that GT Goku is built off from the main story as the primary source and the movies are just nodded and without the movies, goku from the Buu arc was nowhere near comparable to super boo, Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, let alone buutenks or buuhan. so if you go by this notion, things check out and everything fits cuz it would explain why goku trained for more than a decade and yet still weaker than buuhan, it's cuz he did get exponentially more powerful just not to the extent that people think of him

About people who claim Buuhan was equal to base Vegito or even stronger than him (which is total cap), this idea seems to come from people who misapply manga logic to GT. In the manga, Vegito went straight to Super Saiyan 1, so they assume that means Buuhan is stronger than base Vegito in that context. But trying to use that same logic for GT isn’t just wrong—it’s straight-up misguided. GT follows the anime, not the manga, and forcing manga logic onto GT just creates a dead-end filled with absurd conclusions.

Even comparing base Vegito to Buuhan doesn’t hold up. Let me remind those who think this that base Vegito soberly overpowered and blasted Buuhan so hard that only the upper half of his body was left. And he did that without needing Kaioken or let alone SSJ1. When Vegito went Super Saiyan, it wasn’t because he needed to—it was part of his plan to push Buuhan into despair and trick him into absorbing him so he could save his friends and family. That’s the part such people always seem to forget or deliberately ignore.




From my perspective, Buuhan wasn’t on Vegito’s level at all from the get-go. The moment Vegito came into being, it was over. The only thing keeping Buuhan alive was his busted regeneration. Without it, he would’ve been killed outright then and there. It’s also important to note that Vegito could’ve killed him at any point he wanted, even in base, if that had been his goal—but it wasn’t, because his objective from the start was to save his family.

Buuhan refused to accept being hopeless and powerless, even against Super Saiyan 1 Vegito, so it’s obvious he wouldn’t have done so against base Vegito either. That’s just who he is—stubborn and unwilling to admit defeat no matter how outclassed he was. This is why Buuhan choosing to fight Vegito instead of running away shouldn’t be taken as evidence they were on the same level. It’s also important to remember Elder Kai told Goku that the fusion’s resultant fighter wouldn’t even need to go Super Saiyan, let alone ultimate power, to handle their enemies. Vegito was, and has always been, in a completely different league from Buuhan.

and like i've said before, the only boo in my mind that makes sense for goku to speak about to others is the one that's still present and recognizable by them which is mr boo. it wouldn't make much sense for me or the characters around them for him to be speaking about that doesn't exist anymore and only he knows about. conversationally speaking, it's far lucklier he were speaking about mr boo and if he is then all pieces fit and connect together to make this seamless house of cards

tldr: using manga logic where vegito jumped straight to SSJ1 in the context of GT is an ill logic, it's clear by feats that base vegito was soberly superior to buuhan.

SS4 goku>=< SSJ1 vegito [50's times more powerful than base] > Golden ape goku (500 times more powerful) > SS3 kid goku (if dormant power unlocking worked properly) > super baby vegeta 2 > super baby vegeta 1 > buuhan > baby vegeta >= SS3 kid goku (goku might be stronger as an adult than BV if he can extract much more juice outta it as an adult)

in short, GT is a fucking mess