Do New Forms Actually Sell Merchandise?

[SupremeKai25]

Let's not even get into GT. Not once have I seen someone criticize SSJ4 by saying that they just want to sell new toys, even though SSJ4 doesn't make sense because it doesn't have anything in common with the previous SSJ forms, not even the golden hair, and it was named as such just because Super Saiyan is such an iconic name. (Names are extremely important when selling new merchandise, and at least Super was original enough to name its final form "Ultra Instinct" instead of "Super Saiyan White")

SSJ4 exists to sell toys, the GT spaceship exists to sell toys, Giru exists to sell toys, everything in anime exists to sell toys.
Absolutely nobody is denying that.

Osamu Tezuka when he was first making anime was forced to make extreme compromises and overwork himself and his staff to death to meet deadlines, he was constantly at a loss and sold toys as a means to make up for that. But he put up with that, because he wanted to tell stories. The problem begins when companies don't sell toys to tell stories, they sell toys to profit and nothing else, and thus the stories turn out like soulless garbage.

Back on topic: You will not see me complain about SSJ4 because the story and the character development it brought was good. It made me feel like someone poured their heart and soul into making that shit. You won't see me giving other forms the same slack because "And then Goku became stronger... again." is boring as fuck.

Oh, so you mean unlike Super? Because every single form in Super is of course meant to sell new toys (like all those irrelevant Super Saiyan forms from the beloved original series), and also to advance the story in a meaningful way. Every single one. And you don't even need to mention power levels.

Super Saiyan God advances the story because only a Saiyan pure of heart can use it, and thus it shows Lord Beerus that Goku is worthy of respect and deserving of mercy.

Golden Freezer advances the story because it shows Freeza's character development as a villain and antagonist. In DBZ he was a brute, relying on pure strength and nothing else, and believing himself superior to all. He has been humbled by his first defeat, and therefore he understands the value of training and meditation, not just mindlessly relying on brute strength.

Super Saiyan Blue advances the story because it shows Goku's intelligence, as he is capable of tinkering with powers of both mortal and divine domain to attain a hybrid form. In a post-Abridged world where normies think that Goku is an idiot, it's always good to have a form to remind this fandom that Goku (especially Super Goku) is a fighting genius, capable of combining different techniques and domains in unique ways. Plus it's from seeing Super Saiyan Blue that Zamasu becomes greener with envy and thus causes an ENTIRE ARC! to happen.

Super Saiyan Rosé advances the story because it shows Zamasu's increased descent into madness and depravity. "Rose" is a colour often associated with blood and death, therefore Rosé symbolizes Zamasu's desire to genocide all mortals using the body of a Saiyan. This is why Black also makes ample of use of blades and scythes of pure Ki energy in battle, to corroborate his fantasy of a grim reaper of mortals. This is also why, when Zamasu revealed his genocidal intentions to Gowasu, he was surrounded by rose petals.

Super Saiyan Blue Evolved advances the story because it's about Vegeta literally breaking his shell to keep his promise to his people from the Sixth Universe. It is a form that carries Vegeta's desire to win at all costs, so that he can at least prevent the Saiyans of the Sixth Universe from suffering the same fate of his own people. Going from spitting on Raditz and Nappa's graves to getting so angry that you literally get a new form to restore your people from another universe sounds like character development to me.

Ultra Instinct advances the story because it shows Goku's growth as a martial artist, and the journey to attain Ultra Instinct (which, might I remind everyone, began with the first trainings in RoF, 3 years before its official debut) was very much a spiritual one, as Goku was humbled and taught to trust his instincts and let go of all self-doubts.

Orange Piccolo and Super Saiyan Nostalgia Gohan are just soul-less cash-grab, fine, I'll admit this. Even I cannot deny that Super Hero is just a nostalgia bait for all the people who want to relive the childhood nostalgia of the Cell saga. (so basically most of this fandom)

But I know all of this will fall on deaf ears. From what I have seen over the years and most recently in this thread and that other thread about "which forms could be cut?", this fandom starts from the assumption that these new forms must be mindless trash made only for 5 years old, with no other purpose behind their creation.

But Super Saiyan 2 is totally great by the way! So peak! Even though it's like the fourth time Gohan "broke through his shell and unleashed his anger", and it's literally just some lightning and a slightly different hairstyle. Even lazier than recolours.

Yet apparently only Super should get flak for retreading the "Gohan gets angry and becomes stronger!" trope over and over again.

[AliTheZombie13]

Oh, so you mean unlike Super? Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah...

It's telling that I did not mention Super or the original whatsoever, and you proceeded to write yet another angry tirade about how much the original series sucks and how much Super is immaculate, as if I was talking about one or the other exclusively.

I'm sure all the forms in Digimon Adventure 2020 were also necessary to advance the story, but anybody would very much struggle to call any of them inspiring, interesting or well-developed. "Advancing the story" was never the point here, the point being that most transformations in Dragon Ball are boring as fuck, mostly profit-driven and thus "soulless," and the story would've benefited by removing them.

And yes, that includes your beloved Super, my beloved GT, Daima, and our not-so-beloved original manga.
I don't have a problem with shit being made for money, I have a problem with it being mediocre and "more of the same" because the producers know it will sell like water and put no effort whatsoever into making it.

[SupremeKai25]

Oh, so you mean unlike Super? Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah...

It's telling that I did not mention Super or the original whatsoever, and you proceeded to write yet another angry tirade about how much the original series sucks and how much Super is immaculate, as if I was talking about one or the other exclusively.

I'm sure all the forms in Digimon Adventure 2020 were also necessary to advance the story, but anybody would very much struggle to call any of them inspiring, interesting or well-developed. "Advancing the story" was never the point here, the point being that most transformations in Dragon Ball are boring as fuck, mostly profit-driven and thus "soulless," and the story would've benefited by removing them.

And yes, that includes your beloved Super, my beloved GT, Daima, and our not-so-beloved original manga.
I don't have a problem with shit being made for money, I have a problem with it being mediocre and "more of the same" because the producers know it will sell like water and put no effort whatsoever into making it.

If you think Super's forms are "boring, unoriginal, and soulless", then I would imagine that you must think the same about SSJ2 and SSJ3.

I mean SSJ2 is quite literally the laziest form in the entire franchise. No hair colour change, no muscle change, no pupil change, nothing. It's just Gohan getting a rage power boost for like the fourth time.

SSJ3? Ugly, uninspired, just a cheap power boost with no story or character meaning whatsoever.

It's strange that people always complain about Super making up new forms to sell toys, when the original was so full of cheap and soulless forms whose sole function was to sell more saiyan toys.

[AliTheZombie13]

[...]

It's telling that I did not mention Super or the original whatsoever, and you proceeded to write yet another angry tirade about how much the original series sucks and how much Super is immaculate, as if I was talking about one or the other exclusively.

[SupremeKai25]

[...]

It's telling that I did not mention Super or the original whatsoever, and you proceeded to write yet another angry tirade about how much the original series sucks and how much Super is immaculate, as if I was talking about one or the other exclusively.

Why do you keep saying this? This topic is fundamentally about Super. This criticism that new forms are made just to sell merchandise is always levied AGAINST SUPER. (even though it applies perfectly to the original series too, yet not one person ever levies this criticism against DBZ or DB:GT)

Even the OP acknowledged that people complain about soulless cash-grab forms only when it's about Super.

I don't know what anime you're thinking of instead of Super, but this criticism is exclusive to Super (even though it shouldn't be).

[Zephyr]

I have a problem with it being mediocre and "more of the same" because the producers know it will sell like water and put no effort whatsoever into making it.

Well, nothing is a guaranteed hit. There have to be misses, too. It would be cool if we could find out which new forms (and characters) were misses from a merchandising and financial perspective, and part of what motivated the creation of this thread was the hope that we might possibly have some data on that out in the wild. But it doesn't seem like they release such figures publicly (if they even track them).

Anecdotally, the only thing from Daima I've seen anyone irl interested in is my wife hoping they make model kits of the ships, particularly the little bug one that the group is currently traveling in.

[AliTheZombie13]

I don't know what anime you're thinking of instead of Super, but this criticism is exclusive to Super (even though it shouldn't be).

I'm 99% sure this thread was opened in response to the same criticism being levied against SSJ3 Vegeta in Daima.
So it's not a Super only problem, you're the one making it about it.

Well, nothing is a guaranteed hit. There have to be misses, too. It would be cool if we could find out which new forms (and characters) were misses from a merchandising and financial perspective, and part of what motivated the creation of this thread was the hope that we might possibly have some data on that out in the wild. But it doesn't seem like they release such figures publicly (if they even track them).

Anecdotally, the only thing from Daima I've seen anyone irl interested in is my wife hoping they make model kits of the ships, particularly the little bug one that the group is currently traveling in.

It's true, nothing is a guaranteed hit, but most companies operate based on trends. We do have interviews admitting that stories involving Future Trunks, Vegetto and Broly were created because these characters were incredibly popular and almost guaranteed to be a hit. We also have interviews from other Toei shows like Digimon Adventure 2020, where the producers wrote out the Adult-level evolution lines as quickly as possible to give more highlight to the more humanoid Perfect-level evolution linesm as those were more likely to be popular among children.

When creative decisions are at the mercy of "Include this because it's popular and it'll sell well," it's bound to generate reactions like this.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

There was no pandemic in 2019, and the pandemic was over in 2023. That's two "gap" years. No new toys, no new animated content, nothing.

Super Dragon Ball Heroes still exists, and from what I could tell was actively getting new content during that time. You can argue that it's "just a web show" or "just a card game tie in", but it was still actively getting new animated content from what I could tell during the gap years. Not to mention was getting cards made for a crap load of non-canon forms like adult Gotenks, and Super Saiyan 4 for just about every main character and classic Broli. It's not more Dragon Ball Super, but it's very much in service of pushing merch sales of some sort.

[Zephyr]

I'm 99% sure this thread was opened in response to the same criticism being levied against SSJ3 Vegeta in Daima.

In a "straw that broke the camel's back" kinda way, yeah, pretty much.

It's true, nothing is a guaranteed hit, but most companies operate based on trends. We do have interviews admitting that stories involving Future Trunks, Vegetto and Broly were created because these characters were incredibly popular and almost guaranteed to be a hit.

Yup, true enough. Non-zero chance that's also what motivated characters like Tenshinhan and Roshi randomly re-entering the spotlight for RoF and the ToP. Though, we know Toriyama was inspired to bring Freeza back after attending a concert, so those two could have also been a (puzzling) creative decision on his part.

[Skar]

I've always been curious if there's actual sales numbers for new transformations. I recall someone pointing out that the majority of their revenue comes from video games compared to toys and regular merchandising so also curious if new transformations translate to more DLCs or something.

I think it's also like how some people said and the easiest way of showing progress. In some series, the characters train to get stronger and learn new abilities without any visual change. In DB, it's gotten to the point that a character who used to do that like Piccolo throughout the entire series had two transformations in the same movie. Saiyans used to share the same transformations but now almost every Saiyan has their own exclusive form. I think we've reached peak transformations since Goten and Trunks are the only Saiyans left without their own unique forms.

I think the argument that some transformations were unnecessary is valid. The movie continuity is much simpler with only God, regular Blue, and I assume UI eventually since that's the one Toriyama designed. You could argue all anime and manga exclusive transformations were important in some way but if they weren't in Toriyama's outlines then it's possible to tell the same story and cover the same plot points without all those transformations. So far Daima's only "new" transformation was Vegeta's version of SSJ3 which I think shows it's entirely possible to have a modern DB series without needing several new transformations.

[SupremeKai25]

I've always been curious if there's actual sales numbers for new transformations. I recall someone pointing out that the majority of their revenue comes from video games compared to toys and regular merchandising so also curious if new transformations translate to more DLCs or something.

How interesting that you would bring up videogames, considering which forms and characters are featured on the cover art of the biggest Dragon Ball videogame ever. (Naturally cover arts are the single most important aspect of any product's promotion, whether it be a videogame, or a movie, or a comic, or a book, or whatever else)

Spoiler:

I count 5 Super forms/characters and only one (1) character from the original series (and he's actually the Super version of the character because he's got the halo like in the Tournament of Power).

BTW, news of literally the last hour: Sparking Zero's first DLC will be Super Hero tie-in (such perfect timing with this post, LOL!). Also, Sparking Zero's pre-order bonus was a DBS Broly tie-in.

I'd say this paints a pretty clear picture of how popular and profitable Super's forms and characters are.

[BernardoCairo]

I think it's naive to think that they don't create new formats thinking about hype and money.
And that's not necessarily a bad thing, just a fact. Ultra Instinct has an incredible sales potential AND is a cool form that most fans really like. For example, I really want the SH Figuarts Goku Ultra Instinct Toyotaro Edition, but only because I really like the concept of the form itself.
Everything that came after the end of the original manga has this stronger corporate aspect behind it (GT, Super, Daima, the movies). I think this is natural.

[Zephyr]

I think it's also like how some people said and the easiest way of showing progress. In some series, the characters train to get stronger and learn new abilities without any visual change.

The point about progress gives me another thought: one of the pitfalls of a long-running story about ever-increasing strength.

Let's say we remove transformations from the equation as a way to depict further increases in strength. Well, you kinda hit a wall after a certain point. The visual increase in the scale and destructive consequences of combat largely reached its apex with the Namek arc. Since then, there are basically 4 instances I can think of that at least gesture at going beyond it:

• Super Saiyan 3's power being detectable from the Kaioshin's world in the Boo arc

• Goku punching Super 17 across the world, and Super 17 firing ki blasts right back at him from across the world, in GT

• Shockwaves from the clash between Super Saiyan God and Beerus threatening to destroy the universe in Super

• Beerus and Champa's inter-planetary flashback fight resulting in many worlds getting destroyed in the Super manga

You could also make the case that we get a bit of this with Cell as well; he boasts that he'll destroy the entire Solar System with his Kamehameha. I also swear I remember the Namekians being able to feel his power at some point, but I don't see it spot-checking the manga (it may have been in the anime).

In either case, you could argue that once you need to change the character design to show that someone is stronger (and that's all you can bother to do), the strength-cultivation story is maybe past its expiration date. Unless you are willing to lean all in on the 4 to 6 examples above as being the norm in fights, it's simply going to feel and look like everyone is still merely as strong as Goku and Freeza were on Namek. So, given an unwillingness or inability to do so, transformations are practically going to be a storytelling requirement. Arguably the more narratively-sound decision would simply be to end the story about strength cultivation if you're no longer willing or able to really sell increases in strength. But if it's going to continue, and the fight choreography isn't going to get increasingly wild, then transformations are gonna be needed.

And because I know Ali is going to bring up "show, don't tell": yes, having the fight choreography get increasingly wild does more to "show" that they're stronger than a character design change. BUT: a character design change, in turn, does more to "show" that they're stronger than the characters simply pointing to the same character design and saying "wow, they're stronger!". So, transformations aren't a perfect solution to this problem, but they're hardly the worst one available.

[AliTheZombie13]

And because I know Ali is going to bring up "show, don't tell": yes, having the fight choreography get increasingly wild does more to "show" that they're stronger than a character design change. BUT: a character design change, in turn, does more to "show" that they're stronger than the characters simply pointing to the same character design and saying "wow, they're stronger!". So, transformations aren't a perfect solution to this problem, but they're hardly the worst one available.

At this point of the franchise, there ain't nothing you can show that won't simultaneously make it ridiculous.

In Super, for example, Goku and Beerus punching each other and sending shockwaves throughout the universe, making planets crack, creating earthquakes, the threat that if they continue, they'll just destroy the universe itself. Later on, Goku should've logically become stronger than he was in the Beerus arc after attaining SSJ Blue. But... Why is it that every time Goku punches someone else, be it Beerus or whoever, the same shockwaves from before are not generated again?

I was watching a "Normie Reviews Dragon Ball" video and he pointed out how ridiculous it is that Goku boasts about his Teleportation technique, given that in the Saiyan arc he already became faster than the speed of sound, and yet struggles to traverse the Snake Way, which is said to be about X miles long. But, the speed of sound is already magnitudes faster than that? (I'm no expert in the laws of physics, I don't remember the exact numbers, but that point is very much valid)

So, I don't care. If they need transformations to convey "The character became stronger," whatever. Though my suspension of disbelief has long been broken since the Saiyan arc, "they became stronger" is a nothing addition to the franchise or the character. I'm more interested in things like, "What does this transformation add to the story, what does it mean to the character, etc."

Depressingly, most of the time, it means "They became stronger... again."

[SupremeKai25]

In Super, for example, Goku and Beerus punching each other and sending shockwaves throughout the universe, making planets crack, creating earthquakes, the threat that if they continue, they'll just destroy the universe itself. Later on, Goku should've logically become stronger than he was in the Beerus arc after attaining SSJ Blue. But... Why is it that every time Goku punches someone else, be it Beerus or whoever, the same shockwaves from before are not generated again?

Because he obviously learned how to control his powers so as not to threaten the universe?

I don't know why people are stuck on this point when the answer is obvious. Training.

[Zephyr]

In Super, for example, Goku and Beerus punching each other and sending shockwaves throughout the universe, making planets crack, creating earthquakes, the threat that if they continue, they'll just destroy the universe itself. Later on, Goku should've logically become stronger than he was in the Beerus arc after attaining SSJ Blue. But... Why is it that every time Goku punches someone else, be it Beerus or whoever, the same shockwaves from before are not generated again?

Re-watching an episode is more laborious than re-reading a chapter, so I can't be bothered to do that at the moment. But I did look at Kanzenshuu's summary of the relevant episode (and the one following it) to refresh my memory about how the shockwave thing got resolved.

For a third time, Goku and Beerus charge each other, this time seeming to punch many times. And yet the universe remains intact. Elder Kaiōshin explains that Goku erased Beerus’ attack by matching it with a punch of the exact same speed and angle. Goku had actually intended to perfect this technique on the second punch, but Beerus made things too tough for that.

Elder Kaiōshin explains that the clash of the two’s power is creating “super high-density energy” which will destroy the universe if it gets out of hand.

...

Beerus explains that he “nullified” all the energy present, which required he use 100% of his power.

Setting aside the obvious thing of "yeah, sure Beerus was using 100% of his power":

I guess the natural implication is that in order to fight at that level (and beyond), you need to be able to erase or nullify the energy generated by attacks. I don't know how well that tracks with all of the fights that happen after this. I can certainly imagine Goku continuing to do this, and that might be enough in his clashes with Golden Freeza, Hit, Black, Zamasu, #17, Geran, Kafla, Broli, etc. But for others fighting at that level in a Goku-less fight, it's unclear that they're working to do the same thing, or if they even know to do it.

---

I was watching a "Normie Reviews Dragon Ball" video and he pointed out how ridiculous it is that Goku boasts about his Teleportation technique, given that in the Saiyan arc he already became faster than the speed of light, and yet struggles to traverse the Snake Way, which is said to be about X miles long. But, the speed of light is already magnitudes faster than that? (I'm no expert in the laws of physics, I don't remember the exact numbers, but that point is very much valid)

Well, I don't know who this person is or how far down this sort of rabbit hole they've gone. If I remember right, the notion that any Dragon Ball character has ever exceeded the speed of light is a pretty contentious issue among the Strength Debate crowd.

I can say that even if Goku is technically capable of moving at some speed faster than light, it doesn't necessarily follow that being able to teleport is something to scoff at.

How much faster than light are we talking? How long can he sustain that speed for? How much ki does moving that fast expend? How many light years away from Earth is, say, Planet Namek? What about Kaio's planet? What about the Kaioshin realm? Teleportation will still be a more quick and fuel efficient form of travel.

People trying to extrapolate data (such as measurements of time and distance) from "feats" depicted on page and screen, applying that data to real world physics, and finally drawing conclusions from that application, is always an insane fucking mess. There's a reason I completely stopped giving a shit about "who would beat who in a fight?" debates a long time ago. Few other Dragon Ball-related rabbit holes lead to this much tedious misery. I do not recommend it.

EDIT: Okay, if we're talking about the speed of sound, rather than light, then I think there's even less reason to scoff at teleportation.

---

re: "Nothing Addition"
All that said, in a story about trying to get stronger, getting stronger represents accomplishing one's goal. It's a never-ending goal, because there's always a bigger fish and there's never really a ceiling, but moving one step up on the ladder still represents successful progress. And, of course, there are the actual changes that happen to someone like Goku when he proves too successful at that, ie: the "ennui & poison" thing you really, really hate. Another case of "it's not nothing, even if you don't think it's compelling or good for the story".

[Skar]

I count 5 Super forms/characters and only one (1) character from the original series (and he's actually the Super version of the character because he's got the halo like in the Tournament of Power).

BTW, news of literally the last hour: Sparking Zero's first DLC will be Super Hero tie-in (such perfect timing with this post, LOL!). Also, Sparking Zero's pre-order bonus was a DBS Broly tie-in.

I'd say this paints a pretty clear picture of how popular and profitable Super's forms and characters are.

To be honest, it always feels like your comments single out Super like it's separate from the rest of Dragon Ball. It has Super transformations on the cover because it's the latest series but it's a sequel to an old game series that covers the entire franchise. I recall BaggieSaiyan explaining something about how the Super brand was being phased out in favor of general Dragon Ball branding. Super was successful but the same as every revival and exists because the original was successful.

Let's say we remove transformations from the equation as a way to depict further increases in strength. Well, you kinda hit a wall after a certain point. The visual increase in the scale and destructive consequences of combat largely reached its apex with the Namek arc. Since then, there are basically 4 instances I can think of that at least gesture at going beyond it:

That's true but I think that's unique to DB compared to other Shonen. Most others have more variety in techniques and abilities so many of them never have a character strong enough to destroy a planet or even just a city. DB focused on characters getting stronger so every few sagas there's a crazier destructive feat to showoff their power. I think that's what happened in comics to the point that almost every major crisis is someone threatening the entire multiverse again and now multiple characters are capable of wiping out all of existence. I think DB is at its last legs in terms of crazy power scaling because we have a character that can destroy the multiverse and the guy from Daima who might be as close to omnipotent as we'll see and created the multiverse.

I meant also that transformations are easy to tell the character has gotten stronger since these destructive feats are rare and it's usually another character pointing out they've grown stronger through their training. Maybe they assume having the characters keep getting stronger in the same form wouldn't be as exciting as "breaking the ceiling" or "surpassing their limits" and showing a new form. I just mean that transformations might not entirely be to sell merchandise since we probably don't know how much each form sells and more relying on an overused story concept.

[Zephyr]

I just mean that transformations might not entirely be to sell merchandise since we probably don't know how much each form sells and more relying on an overused story concept.

For sure. I agree with you, I was just using that as a jumping-off point for another train of thought.

[Skar]

For sure. I agree with you, I was just using that as a jumping-off point for another train of thought.

I was thinking about the next big destructive feat and I remembered Beerus and Champa fighting would destroy both Universe 6 and 7. The characters always learn to better control their power after each of these crazy feats but maybe they eventually become too powerful and they can never fight at full power. It might be why the Gods of Destruction were only allowed to fight before the ToP because the void is bigger than the individual universes. I think also why Gogeta and Broly were warping in that dimension thing during their fight so that maybe their not using their full strength on Earth.

I think what's interesting about Super is that it shows the end of "there's always a bigger fish". Throughout the original series, Goku or sometimes Gohan was the strongest known character until the next saga introduces someone stronger. Super starts with Beerus as the undisputed biggest (mortal or at least used to be mortal) fish in the universe. Every time we assume a new antagonist might be stronger we find out Beerus is still above them so he's kept as the moving goalpost until whenever they decide to end it. The only ones that surpass Beerus are higher ranking deities the Angels, Grand Priest who is their father, and Zeno the absolute powerful in the multiverse.

[SupremeKai25]

I count 5 Super forms/characters and only one (1) character from the original series (and he's actually the Super version of the character because he's got the halo like in the Tournament of Power).

BTW, news of literally the last hour: Sparking Zero's first DLC will be Super Hero tie-in (such perfect timing with this post, LOL!). Also, Sparking Zero's pre-order bonus was a DBS Broly tie-in.

I'd say this paints a pretty clear picture of how popular and profitable Super's forms and characters are.

To be honest, it always feels like your comments single out Super like it's separate from the rest of Dragon Ball. It has Super transformations on the cover because it's the latest series but it's a sequel to an old game series that covers the entire franchise. I recall BaggieSaiyan explaining something about how the Super brand was being phased out in favor of general Dragon Ball branding. Super was successful but the same as every revival and exists because the original was successful.

Neither Xenoverse 2 nor FighterZ had Super forms on the cover, despite featuring Super content.

Quite clearly Super brand wasn't "phased out in favour of general Dragon Ball branding."