Do New Forms Actually Sell Merchandise?

[Basaku]

Lets assume that new forms are for selling merchandise, then we have to question why these things didn't happen:

- Why didn't Pan get Super Saiyan in GT.
- Why didn't Goten and Trunks fuse in GT.
- Why didn't anyone gain SSJ3 in GT.
- Why didn't Majoob fuse with anyone in GT.
- Why didn't they turn Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Pan into their Oozaru form to fight Omega Shenron in GT.
- Why doesn't Vegeta have Ultra Ego in the anime/movie of DBS, why is it manga exclusive at the moment.
- Why didn't they do SSG Ritual on the other Saiyans to gain SSG.
- Why didn't they allow C17 & C18 to fuse.

There are more examples, but I think that is plenty. Basically those were potential forms, which they could sell as merchandise but they chose not to do it.


Although here is something that never made sense. Vegeta has a armor in DBS, how come Vegito doesn't have any armor at all. Why does Vegito have the same clothes as the Boo Saga, when DBS Vegeta and DBS Goku has different clothes and has Whis symbol.

SSJ3 wasn't needed when the hot new shiny SSJ4 was added.

Manga-exclusive stuff is mostly off limits until anime happens, been like that between Shueisha and Toei for a long time now.

The rest you mention is literally all about secondary characters that get scraps in Goku Time show (with occasional Vegeta Jobtime show). Secondary characters due to the writers' own storytelling decision but in the end that will ALWAYS directly translate onto decreased fandom popularity and thus merch sales

[WittyUsername]

GT was made in the 90s. That was a very different landscape from today.

[SupremeKai25]

Furthermore, nearly all of those aforementioned characters were tertiary characters in GT at best with the exception of Pan and Trunks.

It's not like Super is handing out new forms to tertiary characters like Yamcha or Android 18...

[Koitsukai]

I don’t think the Future Trunks arc called for Vegetto to show up, especially when they had to retcon the way the Potara earrings work to justify his inclusion. Besides, it’s not like he really accomplished anything. He wasn’t even the one who stopped Zamasu. He was there for fanservice. They couldn’t even bother changing his outfit to incorporate Vegeta’s Saiyan armor.

Literally, Anime Gowasu says they need a force strong enough to disrupt Zamasu's fusion or something like that. That's what Vegito did, that's why Trunks was able to fight Zamasu and destroy his body. Without Vegito, Zamasu kills all of them.

As far as the manga goes, yes, I agree, I don't even think the timing was the best, Goku still had one more ace up his sleeve yet he tried fusion first... and I don't think fusion unlocked PSSB for Goku.
Remove Vegito and Manga Goku has one more bullet left in Perfected SSB, a senzu bean left, and a healer; remove Vegito in the anime and they are roast chicken.

[WittyUsername]

I don’t think the Future Trunks arc called for Vegetto to show up, especially when they had to retcon the way the Potara earrings work to justify his inclusion. Besides, it’s not like he really accomplished anything. He wasn’t even the one who stopped Zamasu. He was there for fanservice. They couldn’t even bother changing his outfit to incorporate Vegeta’s Saiyan armor.

Literally, Anime Gowasu says they need a force strong enough to disrupt Zamasu's fusion or something like that. That's what Vegito did, that's why Trunks was able to fight Zamasu and destroy his body. Without Vegito, Zamasu kills all of them.

As far as the manga goes, yes, I agree, I don't even think the timing was the best, Goku still had one more ace up his sleeve yet he tried fusion first... and I don't think fusion unlocked PSSB for Goku.
Remove Vegito and Manga Goku has one more bullet left in Perfected SSB, a senzu bean left, and a healer; remove Vegito in the anime and they are roast chicken.

Toei could’ve easily had them “disrupt” Zamasu’s fusion without Vegetto. In fact, if I recall, Goku basically already did that by himself even before he and Vegeta fused. Zamasu was already deteriorating by the time Vegetto showed up.

[Koitsukai]

I don’t think the Future Trunks arc called for Vegetto to show up, especially when they had to retcon the way the Potara earrings work to justify his inclusion. Besides, it’s not like he really accomplished anything. He wasn’t even the one who stopped Zamasu. He was there for fanservice. They couldn’t even bother changing his outfit to incorporate Vegeta’s Saiyan armor.

Literally, Anime Gowasu says they need a force strong enough to disrupt Zamasu's fusion or something like that. That's what Vegito did, that's why Trunks was able to fight Zamasu and destroy his body. Without Vegito, Zamasu kills all of them.

As far as the manga goes, yes, I agree, I don't even think the timing was the best, Goku still had one more ace up his sleeve yet he tried fusion first... and I don't think fusion unlocked PSSB for Goku.
Remove Vegito and Manga Goku has one more bullet left in Perfected SSB, a senzu bean left, and a healer; remove Vegito in the anime and they are roast chicken.

Toei could’ve easily had them “disrupt” Zamasu’s fusion without Vegetto. In fact, if I recall, Goku basically already did that by himself even before he and Vegeta fused. Zamasu was already deteriorating by the time Vegetto showed up.

Well, no, Zamasu still had enough juice left to fight SSB Vegito and put him down, too. After that fight, he was barely able to fight SSR Trunks.

His introduction was fanservice, yes, that's not in question, the thing is the anime actually came up with a scenario where it was logical for them to try it and his input contributed greatly in the "defeat" of Zamasu. The narrative justified Vegito, nobody could've hit Zamasu so hard and weaken him that much.
The manga shoehorned Vegito in before every avenue was tried by the heroes, it could've been Ultimate Gohan fighting/stalling Zamasu for a while and nothing would've changed.

[WittyUsername]

Literally, Anime Gowasu says they need a force strong enough to disrupt Zamasu's fusion or something like that. That's what Vegito did, that's why Trunks was able to fight Zamasu and destroy his body. Without Vegito, Zamasu kills all of them.

As far as the manga goes, yes, I agree, I don't even think the timing was the best, Goku still had one more ace up his sleeve yet he tried fusion first... and I don't think fusion unlocked PSSB for Goku.
Remove Vegito and Manga Goku has one more bullet left in Perfected SSB, a senzu bean left, and a healer; remove Vegito in the anime and they are roast chicken.

Toei could’ve easily had them “disrupt” Zamasu’s fusion without Vegetto. In fact, if I recall, Goku basically already did that by himself even before he and Vegeta fused. Zamasu was already deteriorating by the time Vegetto showed up.

Well, no, Zamasu still had enough juice left to fight SSB Vegito and put him down, too. After that fight, he was barely able to fight SSR Trunks.

His introduction was fanservice, yes, that's not in question, the thing is the anime actually came up with a scenario where it was logical for them to try it and his input contributed greatly in the "defeat" of Zamasu. The narrative justified Vegito, nobody could've hit Zamasu so hard and weaken him that much.
The manga shoehorned Vegito in before every avenue was tried by the heroes, it could've been Ultimate Gohan fighting/stalling Zamasu for a while and nothing would've changed.

But even in terms of the narrative they came up with, Zamasu was already deteriorating just from fighting Goku. Vegetto was almost like an afterthought. The anime does this a lot, like when they shoehorned Ginyu, Goten and Trunks into the RF adaptation, despite it ultimately not impacting the overall story.

[kemuri07]

My dudes, my guys:

Stuff can be two things. A manga can make story elements flow naturally within its story while also doing so for merchandising and branding.

Question: Have you ever read a a manga and go "huh, why do anime be like that, though?" Well the reason why "anime be like that" is comes down to publishers looking for either the next big thing or just another title to slot into, and creators obviously wanting to have their story last as long as they need it to have to be aware of specific popular trends that are current in the medium.

So it's really not about whether or not a specific transformation has narrative justification that determines whether or not it's just their to sell toys: because stuff can be two things. Absolutely it's there to sell toys. Hell Super's entire reason of being is merchandising. It's a legacy sequel trading off of people's nostalgia for DBZ proper. It's a new shiny thing that Toei can use to sell books, movies, figurines, whatever the fuck.

[SupremeKai25]

Absolutely it's there to sell toys. Hell Super's entire reason of being is merchandising. It's a legacy sequel trading off of people's nostalgia for DBZ proper. It's a new shiny thing that Toei can use to sell books, movies, figurines, whatever the fuck.

And yet there's still no Season 2 of Super after nearly 7 years.

The Moro arc is waiting. Think of all the Moro figurines they can sell!

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

Absolutely it's there to sell toys. Hell Super's entire reason of being is merchandising. It's a legacy sequel trading off of people's nostalgia for DBZ proper. It's a new shiny thing that Toei can use to sell books, movies, figurines, whatever the fuck.

And yet there's still no Season 2 of Super after nearly 7 years.

The Moro arc is waiting. Think of all the Moro figurines they can sell!

There's currently a legal dispute going on preventing the adaptation of any new manga material. That's probably the cause. Also I think production on Super Hero started right after Super Broli released.

[SupremeKai25]

Absolutely it's there to sell toys. Hell Super's entire reason of being is merchandising. It's a legacy sequel trading off of people's nostalgia for DBZ proper. It's a new shiny thing that Toei can use to sell books, movies, figurines, whatever the fuck.

And yet there's still no Season 2 of Super after nearly 7 years.

The Moro arc is waiting. Think of all the Moro figurines they can sell!

There's currently a legal dispute going on preventing the adaptation of any new manga material. That's probably the cause. Also I think production on Super Hero started right after Super Broli released.

If that's because Toriyama died then it still doesn't explain why Toei didn't milk Super some more between 2019 and 2023. Besides, Toei is big enough that they can develop a movie and an anime series simultaneously, like Studio Bones that can produce yearly seasons and movies for My Hero Academia. Broly the movie was produced during Super Season 1.

[WittyUsername]

And yet there's still no Season 2 of Super after nearly 7 years.

The Moro arc is waiting. Think of all the Moro figurines they can sell!

There's currently a legal dispute going on preventing the adaptation of any new manga material. That's probably the cause. Also I think production on Super Hero started right after Super Broli released.

If that's because Toriyama died then it still doesn't explain why Toei didn't milk Super some more between 2019 and 2023. Besides, Toei is big enough that they can develop a movie and an anime series simultaneously, like Studio Bones that can produce yearly seasons and movies for My Hero Academia. Broly the movie was produced during Super Season 1.

My understanding is that these legal disputes have been going on before Toriyama’s passing. That’s why none of the video games have included manga exclusive content, for example. Daima was seemingly made as a compromise.

[Zephyr]

Absolutely it's there to sell toys. Hell Super's entire reason of being is merchandising. It's a legacy sequel trading off of people's nostalgia for DBZ proper. It's a new shiny thing that Toei can use to sell books, movies, figurines, whatever the fuck.

And yet there's still no Season 2 of Super after nearly 7 years.

The Moro arc is waiting. Think of all the Moro figurines they can sell!

They could also just make a different show that fills the same niche of "legacy show that trades off nostalgia". I am so excited to add Gomah and Glorio and Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta to my massive figure collection!
(I do not have a massive figure collection and if I did I would not be excited to add those to it)

it still doesn't explain why Toei didn't milk Super some more between 2019 and 2023.

They did though. A new Dragon Ball Super film came out in 2022. They might have even milked it to the extent that you pine for had the pandemic not slowed everything down.

[SupremeKai25]

Absolutely it's there to sell toys. Hell Super's entire reason of being is merchandising. It's a legacy sequel trading off of people's nostalgia for DBZ proper. It's a new shiny thing that Toei can use to sell books, movies, figurines, whatever the fuck.

And yet there's still no Season 2 of Super after nearly 7 years.

The Moro arc is waiting. Think of all the Moro figurines they can sell!

They could also just make a different show that fills the same niche of "legacy show that trades off nostalgia". I am so excited to add Gomah and Glorio and Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta to my massive figure collection!
(I do not have a massive figure collection and if I did I would not be excited to add those to it)

it still doesn't explain why Toei didn't milk Super some more between 2019 and 2023.

They did though. A new Dragon Ball Super film came out in 2022. They might have even milked it to the extent that you pine for had the pandemic not slowed everything down.

Why do you keep playing dumb with me? Do you find it enjoyable?

You know I'm talking about Super, not Daima. I thought I made that clear enough. How is it relevant to mention Daima to me? And anyway it's just 20 episodes. So much for that "milking".

A new movie released after 3 years of no animated content is hardly "milking" it.

It's fine to acknowledge that Super is such a popular brand that it doesn't need animated content to print money, but let's not act like one movie released after 3 years of zero content and an unrelated spin-off of 20 episodes constitutes as milking Super.

[JulieYBM]

The production committee needs permission from the other members of the production committee to be able to create merchandise and such. We haven't gotten more Dragon Ball Super stuff unrelated to what has already been released because it needs to be part of a unified movement. "Why don't they do [x]?" Becuase shit doesn't work that way.

[SupremeKai25]

The production committee needs permission from the other members of the production committee to be able to create merchandise and such. We haven't gotten more Dragon Ball Super stuff unrelated to what has already been released because it needs to be part of a unified movement. "Why don't they do [x]?" Becuase shit doesn't work that way.

I don't understand why my simple question got such patronizing responses.

When people try to claim that Super is just a soulless cash-grab (as if the original series didn't have yearly movies for milking purposes), then yes, it's natural to ask the simple question

"Uh-oh, but if it's just a soulless cash-grab, why aren't they making a new season after 7 years?"

If the problem of these "production committees" is the manga rights, then they could just come up with anime-only stories. Toei didn't wait 7 years to try to milk the brand and get some more cash with GT.

[Zephyr]

Why do you keep playing dumb with me? Do you find it enjoyable?

You know I'm talking about Super, not Daima. I thought I made that clear enough. How is it relevant to mention Daima to me? And anyway it's just 20 episodes. So much for that "milking".

A new movie released after 3 years of no animated content is hardly "milking" it.

It's fine to acknowledge that Super is such a popular brand that it doesn't need animated content to print money, but let's not act like one movie released after 3 years of zero content and an unrelated spin-off of 20 episodes constitutes as milking Super.

There's no need to pretend that I can't and don't read the replies I quote. Of course you're talking about Super. It's what you do. There's also no need to be so fucking hostile on top of your increasingly tedious shtick. Do I have some history of "playing dumb" with you that I'm unaware of?

To clarify my previous post: it looks to me like you're using the absence of Moro merch to question the merch motive that kemuri is bringing up. Several posters have mentioned plausible reasons as to why there is such an absence, even with the merch motive being there. I don't think that the absence of Moro merch is sufficient to challenge kemuri's point. Whatever the reason for the absence, the merch motive has simply manifested elsewhere, such as with Super Hero or Daima.

The distinction between Super and Daima really doesn't matter. Don't let the shiny brand names confuse you: they're both in service of Dragon Ball. Making content for either makes content for Dragon Ball. If there's some press release or interview where we learned that these various sub-brands are indeed in bitter competition with one another, by all means, please drop a link! That would be super interesting and I'd love to learn more about it.

I was also making a light joke at the expense of kemuri's point, because despite the fact that this whole franchise (not just Super) exists to sell merch, Daima's new stuff (be it the new Vegeta form, or the new characters) really ain't grabbing me. Something that I'm thankful for, honestly, because then I'd be in anguish over not actually being able to snag them.

Finally: if we're using "milking" to refer to a specific quantity of content, and not just continuing to make more films after a show's natural conclusion, then they indeed didn't milk Super during the pandemic. I thought we were using the term in the latter sense, not the former. My bad.

When people try to claim that Super is just a soulless cash-grab (as if the original series didn't have yearly movies for milking purposes)

There are no doubt people who claim that, but did anyone in this particular conversation say that? Even kemuri explicity said multiple times in his post:

Stuff can be two things.

Super can exist to generate merchandising opportunities and be good! It's okay. You can take a deep breathe of relief. They can't take Super away from you, bro.

[JulieYBM]

The production committee needs permission from the other members of the production committee to be able to create merchandise and such. We haven't gotten more Dragon Ball Super stuff unrelated to what has already been released because it needs to be part of a unified movement. "Why don't they do [x]?" Becuase shit doesn't work that way.

I don't understand why my simple question got such patronizing responses.

When people try to claim that Super is just a soulless cash-grab (as if the original series didn't have yearly movies for milking purposes), then yes, it's natural to ask the simple question

"Uh-oh, but if it's just a soulless cash-grab, why aren't they making a new season after 7 years?"

If the problem of these "production committees" is the manga rights, then they could just come up with anime-only stories. Toei didn't wait 7 years to try to milk the brand and get some more cash with GT.

I wasn't patronizing you, but I won't lie—you have been on my blocklist for a few months because I think that you're annoying as hell and I don't need that shit in my life.

Anyway, like I said, anime-only stories still need to have the approval of parties other than Toei Animation. Toei can want to make a new weekly, long-running animated series, but that doesn't mean they'll get the approval to do so, nor is it something that they will financially risk on their own—especially if it means potentially pissing off a production partner like Bandai by not planning ahead with them.

The process of doing something is a lot more involved than it looks like from the outside to a bunch of geeks on an internet forum.

[SupremeKai25]

There's no need to pretend that I can't and don't read the replies I quote. Of course you're talking about Super. It's what you do. There's also no need to be so fucking hostile on top of your increasingly tedious shtick. Do I have some history of "playing dumb" with you that I'm unaware of?

"Shtick"? I do have a shtick, and it's a very unpopular opinion. I believe there is a lot of double-standard when comparing Super and DBZ.

Super introduced a lot of new forms, and each one of these forms served a story purpose or had a story justification behind it (and apparently no one is ever willing to cut Super some slack on its execution like GT), yet the benefit of the doubt is NEVER given to Super and these new forms must exist just to sell new toys.

This is what you acknowledged at the very beginning of your OP! What you do not realize, is that you agreed with me!

DBZ arguably has more useless and lazy forms than Super, like SSJ3 and all those intermediate SSJ1 forms that don't add anything valuable to the story and have far fewer visual changes than Super forms, yet these forms are loved! Not once have I seen the "they just want to sell new toys!" criticism levied at DBZ, even though it's obvious that it applies. Let's not even get into the Cell saga's main villains and how they are changed multiple times just to sell more toys.

Let's not even get into GT. Not once have I seen someone criticize SSJ4 by saying that they just want to sell new toys, even though SSJ4 doesn't make sense because it doesn't have anything in common with the previous SSJ forms, not even the golden hair, and it was named as such just because Super Saiyan is such an iconic name. (Names are extremely important when selling new merchandise, and at least Super was original enough to name its final form "Ultra Instinct" instead of "Super Saiyan White")

To clarify my previous post: it looks to me like you're using the absence of Moro merch to question the merch motive that kemuri is bringing up. Several posters have mentioned plausible reasons as to why there is such an absence, even with the merch motive being there. I don't think that the absence of Moro merch is sufficient to challenge kemuri's point. Whatever the reason for the absence, the merch motive has simply manifested elsewhere, such as with Super Hero or Daima.

There was no pandemic in 2019, and the pandemic was over in 2023. That's two "gap" years. No new toys, no new animated content, nothing.

Anyway, like I said, anime-only stories still need to have the approval of parties other than Toei Animation. Toei can want to make a new weekly, long-running animated series, but that doesn't mean they'll get the approval to do so, nor is it something that they will financially risk on their own—especially if it means potentially pissing off a production partner like Bandai by not planning ahead with them.

The process of doing something is a lot more involved than it looks like from the outside to a bunch of geeks on an internet forum.

Within the context of this thread, the matter is simpler.

If these new forms exist solely to sell new toys, well then, it would be in the best interest to continue Super so that the manga arcs can be adapted and new toys can be created for all the forms and characters that are now manga exclusive. The list is long.

Or perhaps the main purpose of these new forms is to advance the story, and not to "sell new toys" which they can't even do until they agree on continuing the anime and adapting these arcs.

It's as I said! The claim is that these new forms exist just to sell new toys, but if they don't want to continue the anime and adapt the Moro arc, they can't sell new toys of those forms! So there must be another reason behind these new forms.

[AliTheZombie13]

Let's not even get into GT. Not once have I seen someone criticize SSJ4 by saying that they just want to sell new toys, even though SSJ4 doesn't make sense because it doesn't have anything in common with the previous SSJ forms, not even the golden hair, and it was named as such just because Super Saiyan is such an iconic name. (Names are extremely important when selling new merchandise, and at least Super was original enough to name its final form "Ultra Instinct" instead of "Super Saiyan White")

SSJ4 exists to sell toys, the GT spaceship exists to sell toys, Giru exists to sell toys, everything in anime exists to sell toys.
Absolutely nobody is denying that.

Osamu Tezuka when he was first making anime was forced to make extreme compromises and overwork himself and his staff to death to meet deadlines, he was constantly at a loss and sold toys as a means to make up for that. But he put up with that, because he wanted to tell stories. The problem begins when companies don't sell toys to tell stories, they sell toys to profit and nothing else, and thus the stories turn out like soulless garbage.

Back on topic: You will not see me complain about SSJ4 because the story and the character development it brought was good. It made me feel like someone poured their heart and soul into making that shit. You won't see me giving other forms the same slack because "And then Goku became stronger... again." is boring as fuck.