Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

I think the Megath child may be stronger than a Tamagami, but not above Majin Duu’s level or even SS2-tier fighters. The Kraken also doesn’t seem to match Tamagami #2’s level, as its feats don’t indicate comparable power. Using Super Vegetto and other post-Buu Saga characters as benchmarks may overestimate their standing, given the limited scaling evidence provided for these entities.

[ZombieVito]

Doing another ranking before shit goes down in the next few episodes:

Spoiler:

SSJ3 Goku | SSJ3 Vegeta | Kid Buu
Majin Duu
Majin Buu | Red Tamagami #1 | Purple Tamagami #2
Good Buu | Base Tamagami #1
SSJ2 Goku | SSJ2 Vegeta | Base Tamagami #2
Super Perfect Cell | Majin Dabura | Orange Tamagami #3
Perfect Cell | Dabura
SSJ Goku | SSJ Vegeta | Base Tamagami #3
Neva
Majin Kuu | Gomah
Piccolo | Glorio
Marba
Nahare | Degesu | Dr. Arinsu
Babidi | Bibidi
Namek Freeza
Base Goku | Base Vegeta
Galactic King | King Kadan
Ginyu Force | Gendarmerie Force
King Kadan Army General | Freeza Elites (Zarbon/Dodoria/Cui)
Jaco | Hybis
Freeza Soldiers | Gendarmerie Soldiers
King Kadan's Soldiers
Demon Realm Thugs
Panzy

Some notes:

Spoiler:

The Demon Realm Thugs are on a spectrum of power, but I don't think any of them surpass og DB levels of power. At most they're King Piccolo level, maybe above that, but definitely below the average Freeza Soldier.

King Kadan's Soldiers have actual military training and when working together managed to push Goku to briefly use SSJ. However, their training is likely not as advanced as the Gendarmerie Soldiers nor do they have the same level of technology.

Judging by RoF, Jaco is superior to the average Freeza goon. Hybis has no real on-screen feats, but based on how well-traveled he is within the Demon Realm (and outside of it potentially), Kadan's trust in him, and the weird zombie game joke scene, I will assume that he is actually decently strong and he is just lazy which fits for his character. Do not take Hybis' ranking too seriously, I just wanted to place him there for fun.

The General of Kadan's Army (Trumpet Lady) does not fight unfortunately because I like her design, but she has to be Kadan's strongest soldier. Thus, I am placing her on par with Freeza's (regular) Elite soldiers. She might be weaker, but I am being generous here.

The Gendarmerie Force are the Demon Realm's version of the Ginyu Force so I am placing them as equals for now.

Galactic King = King Kadan. Why is Galactic King so strong? Well he is stated to be the strongest in the Galactic Patrol (pre-Merus). On top of that, he must be at least above the Ginyu Force for Freeza to not want to waste resources fighting the Galactic Patrol. The Heeters for example, were stated by Toyotaro to be above the Ginyu Force, but below Freeza in power. I think placing the Galactic King on that level is pretty reasonable. That being said, I am placing Kadan on the same level.

Babidi and Bibidi are physically weaker than Freeza and King Cold, but I think their magical prowess places them relative or perhaps even above them which would maintain the balance of powers within U7. Marba has greater magic than them and Arinsu so I am placing her above the wizards and the Glinds.

Piccolo and Glorio seem relative to me. As for Piccolo being above Nahare, I think this was either always the case or Piccolo surpassed him within a year.

Majin Kuu should at least be stronger than the Glinds based on Arinsu's intentions. The previous Majin was weaker than her so Kuu is likely stronger than her as a result. He still failed to beat Tamagami #1, he might be weaker than any Tamagami. I still think that he is formidable and should be above Piccolo and Glorio, perhaps on par with Gomah who is also stronger than the Glinds and Glorio.

Neva's magic is insanely powerful and he might pull some more crazy feats that could potentially place him much higher.

Majin Dabura = SPC. I know this is a point of contention, but I will not budge on this opinion. Gohan showed off SSJ2 against Kibito, it makes no sense that he would not use it against Dabura, I do not care how it was drawn. Dabura being compared to Cell is narratively telling us that he is as strong as the previous villain so that Toriyama could show how strong Buu was on his first appearance. He has magic so he should be slightly above SPC. Orange Tamagami #3 was able to hold back and deflect a Kamahameha from SSJ2 Goku, but still lost in the end so he is on that level although he is still stronger than SPC and Dabura.

When Neva boosted Tamagami #2 I believe he became on par with Tamagami #1's full power. Based on 2's performance against SSJ3 Vegeta, I think he is on Fat Buu's level, maybe a little below.

Majin Duu is above the Tamagamis, but not by a lot so he is slightly stronger that Fat Buu, but would easily lose to Kid Buu.

Hypothetical Mega/Giga Rankings (Bonus):

Spoiler:

I am going to be extremely generous here because I just loved the concept of the Mega and Giga planets.

The Strongest Gigath | Suppressed Beerus (BoG)
Average Gigath Adult | Super Vegetto
Gigath Child | Buuhan
The Strongest Megath | Buutenks
Average Megath Adult | Super Buu
Megath Child | Kid Buu
Kraken | Majin Duu

Honestly they might be even stronger, but we do not have enough information.

Isn't the Galactic King stated to be weaker than King Vegeta somewhere?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Not sure if the Galactic King is ever compared to King Vegeta, but I assure you that guy is probably Nappa level. The Galactic Patrol wants nothing to do with Freeza. There's no world where the king is stronger than Freeza's strongest man. He's probably Nappa level.

[Koitsukai]

Have to disagree with the SS2 Gohan take from the Buu arc.

The narrative supports Gohan not being on that level. It's not really a matter of being SS or SS2, it's a matter of getting angry enough to access that power, although for Gohan they seem to be the same thing.
Gohan's hair is spikier but there is something missing, the sparks, the bravado, the power... he is half-way there, he is not quite a regular SS but he is also not an actual SS2 with all its perks.
He loses it and is angry as fuck when his crush is on the line, and while that feeling is still fresh he can freely access that state and even swing his dick left and right in front of Kibito: "you wanna see more?".
Later on, all that energy, all those emotions are gone, he cooled down. He is fighting because he has to, he doesn't like to fight but he is following the crowd and he is performing in front of daddy and uncle Vegeta, tough audience. He is being observed, he is not angry, he cannot get to that point under those circumnstances... shit, even Goku will tell him, before fighting Vegeta, to get angry like vs Cell and he'll have no rival. Subtext: you didn't vs Dabura. If he had, then per Goku's own words, he would've defeated Dabura.

And what does the story do with this? with Gohan failing to get angry to access his full power without the life of somebody he loves being on the line? takes another route, let's unlock it all with magic so he won't have to struggle like that anymore.

[Hugo Boss]

In the next episode we might see some new content about Dabra, maybe how strong he was before being enslaved by Babidi, but for now it doesn’t look like he compared to SS2 tier characters even at his strongest.

Before being brainwashed by Babidi, Vegeta’s strength was close to Super Perfect Cell, as they both could challenge SS2 Kid Gohan, and Vegeta didn’t think Dabra was someone that he couldn’t do anything against. Dabra was basically a wall to SS tier characters, while Innocent Boo was a wall to SS2 tier. They are at a point that the heroes only need a greater level to be able to decisively defeat.

[ZombieVito]

Have to disagree with the SS2 Gohan take from the Buu arc.

The narrative supports Gohan not being on that level. It's not really a matter of being SS or SS2, it's a matter of getting angry enough to access that power, although for Gohan they seem to be the same thing.
Gohan's hair is spikier but there is something missing, the sparks, the bravado, the power... he is half-way there, he is not quite a regular SS but he is also not an actual SS2 with all its perks.
He loses it and is angry as fuck when his crush is on the line, and while that feeling is still fresh he can freely access that state and even swing his dick left and right in front of Kibito: "you wanna see more?".
Later on, all that energy, all those emotions are gone, he cooled down. He is fighting because he has to, he doesn't like to fight but he is following the crowd and he is performing in front of daddy and uncle Vegeta, tough audience. He is being observed, he is not angry, he cannot get to that point under those circumnstances... shit, even Goku will tell him, before fighting Vegeta, to get angry like vs Cell and he'll have no rival. Subtext: you didn't vs Dabura. If he had, then per Goku's own words, he would've defeated Dabura.

And what does the story do with this? with Gohan failing to get angry to access his full power without the life of somebody he loves being on the line? takes another route, let's unlock it all with magic so he won't have to struggle like that anymore.

Dabura is literally compared to Cell.

He's SS2 tier.

[Hugo Boss]

Dabura is literally compared to Cell.

He's SS2 tier.

SS2 tier but fails to defeat a SS level warrior. SS2 tier but gets humbled by a newbie SS2 level warrior. While Super Perfect Cell badly damages SS2 Kid Gohan with a ki blast meant to kill SS Vegeta. Not sure how these feats are supposed to be comparable. The Cell Goku is talking about likely is not that version that rivals Gohan at his strongest. It’s rather Perfect Cell before the zenkai boost.

[Koitsukai]

Dabura is literally compared to Cell.

He's SS2 tier.

And Goku literally tells Gohan, after fighting Dabura, to get angry like vs Cell and he will have no rival.

[Yuji]

Future Trunks needed SS2 to defeat Dabra. Babidi arrived one year prior to the Zamasu arc, so this is a future Trunks who's been training for ten years since the Cell Games and who Goku states is stronger than Cell Games Gohan.

So SS2 Trunks > Dabra > SS Trunks.

If we're claiming that Dabra "couldn't defeat" Gohan, this implies Gohan was anywhere near Goku, Trunks, or his CG self. Whereas it seemed to me Dabra was stalling to gather energy, he could have defeated Gohan at any point.

Furthermore, Goku's statement later in the arc seems to imply SS2 Boo arc Gohan could have defeated both Dabra and Cell as well.

SS2 Goku/Vegeta/Trunks > SS2 CG Gohan > SS2 Boo arc Gohan >/= Dabra/SPC >> Perfect Cell > Super Saiyans

Cell catching Gohan with a sneak attack proves nothing considering Gohan later states his power was cut in half and still kills Cell. Even if you grant he was underestimating himself, he was at most at 80% and not at full power.

[LightBing]

Gohan is draw without sparks, while before he was clearly drawn with them.
It's not a case of Toriyama forgetting about them since concurrently he draw the two other Saiyans with them.

The comparison is with Perfect Cell without a doubt. Regarding Dabra he's in the same realm but edges out due to magic, which seems to amount to techniques; based on his bout with Gohan and Daima's examples of it. In raw power he should be the same.

If we're claiming that Dabra "couldn't defeat" Gohan, this implies Gohan was anywhere near Goku, Trunks, or his CG self. Whereas it seemed to me Dabra was stalling to gather energy, he could have defeated Gohan at any point.

There's nothing about stalling in that fight. Damage was his goal, stalling wouldn't amount to nothing and is mentioned by nobody.
Dabra is still superior in the end but not by much.

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P10.5-6
Context: as Gohan fights Dabra
Vegeta: “Damn it…this is pissing me off! Alright, I’ll finish this!”
Goku: “Don’t, Vegeta! Let [Gohan] do it. It ain’t like he’s completely losing.”

[ZombieVito]

Dabura is literally compared to Cell.

He's SS2 tier.

SS2 tier but fails to defeat a SS level warrior. SS2 tier but gets humbled by a newbie SS2 level warrior. While Super Perfect Cell badly damages SS2 Kid Gohan with a ki blast meant to kill SS Vegeta. Not sure how these feats are supposed to be comparable. The Cell Goku is talking about likely is not that version that rivals Gohan at his strongest. It’s rather Perfect Cell before the zenkai boost.

The comparison was a general one so it's Cell at his strongest. Cell managed to damage Gohan because the later was an idiot.

[Hugo Boss]

Future Trunks needed SS2 to defeat Dabra. Babidi arrived one year prior to the Zamasu arc, so this is a future Trunks who's been training for ten years since the Cell Games and who Goku states is stronger than Cell Games Gohan.

The Trunks that fought Goku is not the same Trunks that fought Dabra. Trunks had been fighting Goku Black for a whole year after defeating Babidi and Dabra. He got a lot stronger as a result of their multiple encounters.

If we're claiming that Dabra "couldn't defeat" Gohan, this implies Gohan was anywhere near Goku, Trunks, or his CG self. Whereas it seemed to me Dabra was stalling to gather energy, he could have defeated Gohan at any point.

This is not what their fight implies though. Dabra only had a slight edge over SS Gohan and was aiming for damage, even pulling out a sword to fight.

Furthermore, Goku's statement later in the arc seems to imply SS2 Boo arc Gohan could have defeated both Dabra and Cell as well.

Only if Gohan summoned back the power he used to kill Cell, which was when he drawn out all of the power he had in the final moment.

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P7.1-4
Gohan: “Well, I’ve become a Super Saiyan. Now what? Is it alright if I fight like this?”
Kibito: “…Wh-what tremendous power…I can’t believe he’s a being of the lower world!”
Vegeta: “…Hmph…That bastard, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…”
Kaioshin: “…No, even so this is magnificent energy, more so than I imagined…I wonder if I’ll be able to stop this power…”
Goku: “…Stop it?”

SS2 Gohan from Boo arc can’t defeat Super Perfect Cell, as Cell wasn’t that far removed from SS2 Kid Gohan.

Cell catching Gohan with a sneak attack proves nothing considering Gohan later states his power was cut in half and still kills Cell. Even if you grant he was underestimating himself, he was at most at 80% and not at full power.

The whole point of motivating Gohan was to draw out all the power he had to kill Cell.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6
Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…

The thrust of their dynamic is that SS2 Kid Gohan wasn’t fighting Cell with all he could at first. He took more damage than expected because of that, as Cell surpassed the level he was fighting with as a SS2. I cannot imagine Dabra managing such a feat.

The comparison was a general one so it's Cell at his strongest. Cell managed to damage Gohan because the later was an idiot.

I don’t see how one would come to this conclusion after reading what Goku said in these instances.

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.1-4
Context: after Kaioshin again warns against unleashing Boo
Vegeta: “Hmph…The way things are going, this ‘Majin Boo’ guy isn’t going to be anything special, is he? Just like that ‘Dabra’ jerk…[ ] I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…”
Kaioshin: “…Is-is that true, Son Goku?...”
Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…”

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P10.5-6
Context: as Gohan fights Dabra
Vegeta: “Damn it…this is pissing me off! Alright, I’ll finish this!”
Goku: “Don’t, Vegeta! Let [Gohan] do it. It ain’t like he’s completely losing.”

How would a slacked SS Gohan not completely lose against an opponent that is way stronger than Super Perfect Cell?

[ZombieVito]

Future Trunks needed SS2 to defeat Dabra. Babidi arrived one year prior to the Zamasu arc, so this is a future Trunks who's been training for ten years since the Cell Games and who Goku states is stronger than Cell Games Gohan.

The Trunks that fought Goku is not the same Trunks that fought Dabra. Trunks had been fighting Goku Black for a whole year after defeating Babidi and Dabra. He got a lot stronger as a result of their multiple encounters.

If we're claiming that Dabra "couldn't defeat" Gohan, this implies Gohan was anywhere near Goku, Trunks, or his CG self. Whereas it seemed to me Dabra was stalling to gather energy, he could have defeated Gohan at any point.

This is not what their fight implies though. Dabra only had a slight edge over SS Gohan and was aiming for damage, even pulling out a sword to fight.

Furthermore, Goku's statement later in the arc seems to imply SS2 Boo arc Gohan could have defeated both Dabra and Cell as well.

Only if Gohan summoned back the power he used to kill Cell, which was when he drawn out all of the power he had in the final moment.

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P7.1-4
Gohan: “Well, I’ve become a Super Saiyan. Now what? Is it alright if I fight like this?”
Kibito: “…Wh-what tremendous power…I can’t believe he’s a being of the lower world!”
Vegeta: “…Hmph…That bastard, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…”
Kaioshin: “…No, even so this is magnificent energy, more so than I imagined…I wonder if I’ll be able to stop this power…”
Goku: “…Stop it?”

SS2 Gohan from Boo arc can’t defeat Super Perfect Cell, as Cell wasn’t that far removed from SS2 Kid Gohan.

Cell catching Gohan with a sneak attack proves nothing considering Gohan later states his power was cut in half and still kills Cell. Even if you grant he was underestimating himself, he was at most at 80% and not at full power.

The whole point of motivating Gohan was to draw out all the power he had to kill Cell.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6
Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…

The thrust of their dynamic is that SS2 Kid Gohan wasn’t fighting Cell with all he could at first. He took more damage than expected because of that, as Cell surpassed the level he was fighting with as a SS2. I cannot imagine Dabra managing such a feat.

The comparison was a general one so it's Cell at his strongest. Cell managed to damage Gohan because the later was an idiot.

I don’t see how one would come to this conclusion after reading what Goku said in these instances.

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.1-4
Context: after Kaioshin again warns against unleashing Boo
Vegeta: “Hmph…The way things are going, this ‘Majin Boo’ guy isn’t going to be anything special, is he? Just like that ‘Dabra’ jerk…[ ] I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…”
Kaioshin: “…Is-is that true, Son Goku?...”
Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…”

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P10.5-6
Context: as Gohan fights Dabra
Vegeta: “Damn it…this is pissing me off! Alright, I’ll finish this!”
Goku: “Don’t, Vegeta! Let [Gohan] do it. It ain’t like he’s completely losing.”

How would a slacked SS Gohan not completely lose against an opponent that is way stronger than Super Perfect Cell?

Because Gohan was a SS2.

[LightBing]

Because Gohan was a SS2.

Gohan is without a doubt SSJ1 against Dabra and Majin Boo.
It's drawn right in the paper. You need to prove that what everyone else sees with their eyes is wrong.

Honestly everyone is going beyond to try to explain something that's quite literally in front of everyone faces.

[ZombieVito]

Because Gohan was a SS2.

Gohan is without a doubt SSJ1 against Dabra and Majin Boo.
It's drawn right in the paper. You need to prove that what everyone else sees with their eyes is wrong.

Honestly everyone is going beyond to try to explain something that's quite literally in front of everyone faces.

We literally have the manga and official guidebooks saying Dabura is equal to Cell and Gohan wasn't one shotted by him so he is SS2.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Because Gohan was a SS2.

Gohan is without a doubt SSJ1 against Dabra and Majin Boo.
It's drawn right in the paper. You need to prove that what everyone else sees with their eyes is wrong.

Honestly everyone is going beyond to try to explain something that's quite literally in front of everyone faces.

We literally have the manga and official guidebooks saying Dabura is equal to Cell and Gohan wasn't one shotted by him so he is SS2.

SP Cell did one shot Gohan (sort of), so via feats we can conclude SPC > Dabra.

[The Monkey King]

Because Gohan was a SS2.

Gohan is without a doubt SSJ1 against Dabra and Majin Boo.
It's drawn right in the paper. You need to prove that what everyone else sees with their eyes is wrong.

Honestly everyone is going beyond to try to explain something that's quite literally in front of everyone faces.

We literally have the manga and official guidebooks saying Dabura is equal to Cell and Gohan wasn't one shotted by him so he is SS2.

Manga > Guidebooks

Show one panel of Gohan with lightning around his aura

Spoiler:

You can't

[LightBing]

We literally have the manga and official guidebooks saying Dabura is equal to Cell and Gohan wasn't one shotted by him so he is SS2.

Equal( a bit superior) to Perfect Cell. Since Gohan is draw as SSJ1.
Perfect Cell is the relevant form, which stayed the longest. Also Goku never saw SPC, if we're being pedantic.

When everyone talks about Freeza, they aren't talking about Mecha Freeza are they?
Once again SSJ2 has sparks, Gohan did not.

[Koitsukai]

The manga literally has Gohan without the actual SS2 design and also Goku telling him to get angry and he'll lose to nobody, lol. But I guess, if it's in a guidebook written by NOT Toriyama then it must be true.

[dbgtFO]

As long as Gohan is weaker than his child SS2 self, it doesn't matter if he has sparks or not.

Cell =< Dabra =< SS Gohan(Dabra fight) < SS2 Gohan(Cell Games) >=< Full Power hypothetical SS2 Gohan.

Everything checks out. No need to complicate it with introducing ridiculous notions of "Goku only meant a specific form of Cell that fall in line with my headcanon!!!"